Look, zos, just remove CPs from PvP

technohic

Minno wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I will say I never understood why light armor would have more roll cost than medium. Might be something they could do is pretty much make medium weapon damage and light magic damage but give them both the ability to sneak, roll, dodge. But I will say that if shields can't be crit, they should not have a dodge chance either.

If they move dodge roll/block party separate stat pool, they have to move shields as well. This way all classes have the same defensive counters but you need to surgically build towards it and accept the lack of damage if you want to dodge roll everywhere, Shield stack 20k shields, block everything.

That sounds boring.

Gargis

CP. No CP. It does not matter.

You can never have a balanced game w/o a global cool down. Animations are key for a counterpoint aspect of game play.

If you like it ,play it. If not, don't. If your not happy with the balance, that is fine. But don't complain about shards on the floor while ignoring the elephant it the room.

Yubarius

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Azura's Star is the best PvP campaign.

About 4 months ago, whenever i heard people say that statement i just thought they were smug players that thought they were better than everyone else, but about a month ago I started playing and OH BOY is it better than trueflame. Less lag, requires skillful play, resource management is more important so the insane one shot burst is almost non existent. Pls remove cp from PvP

Buffler

Yubarius wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Azura's Star is the best PvP campaign.

About 4 months ago, whenever i heard people say that statement i just thought they were smug players that thought they were better than everyone else, but about a month ago I started playing and OH BOY is it better than trueflame. Less lag, requires skillful play, resource management is more important so the insane one shot burst is almost non existent. Pls remove cp from PvP

No, your happy with no CP, thats great...stay in the no cp campaign. Dont force it on others.

technohic

Buffler wrote: »

Yubarius wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Azura's Star is the best PvP campaign.

About 4 months ago, whenever i heard people say that statement i just thought they were smug players that thought they were better than everyone else, but about a month ago I started playing and OH BOY is it better than trueflame. Less lag, requires skillful play, resource management is more important so the insane one shot burst is almost non existent. Pls remove cp from PvP

No, your happy with no CP, thats great...stay in the no cp campaign. Dont force it on others.

I'm ok with this so long as the whining about infinite resources, infinitank, and one shot builds doesn't bring nerfs on things that are perfectly fine in Azuras

thankyourat

technohic wrote: »

Buffler wrote: »

Yubarius wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Azura's Star is the best PvP campaign.

About 4 months ago, whenever i heard people say that statement i just thought they were smug players that thought they were better than everyone else, but about a month ago I started playing and OH BOY is it better than trueflame. Less lag, requires skillful play, resource management is more important so the insane one shot burst is almost non existent. Pls remove cp from PvP

No, your happy with no CP, thats great...stay in the no cp campaign. Dont force it on others.

I'm ok with this so long as the whining about infinite resources, infinitank, and one shot builds doesn't bring nerfs on things that are perfectly fine in Azuras

I find it funny that everyone complains about how unbalanced PvP is but doesn't want a change to the main thing making it unbalanced (champion points). Champion points are giving people builds things their class should not have which is messing with the game balance. Something has to change with the champion point system

technohic

thankyourat wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Buffler wrote: »

Yubarius wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Azura's Star is the best PvP campaign.

About 4 months ago, whenever i heard people say that statement i just thought they were smug players that thought they were better than everyone else, but about a month ago I started playing and OH BOY is it better than trueflame. Less lag, requires skillful play, resource management is more important so the insane one shot burst is almost non existent. Pls remove cp from PvP

No, your happy with no CP, thats great...stay in the no cp campaign. Dont force it on others.

I'm ok with this so long as the whining about infinite resources, infinitank, and one shot builds doesn't bring nerfs on things that are perfectly fine in Azuras

I find it funny that everyone complains about how unbalanced PvP is but doesn't want a change to the main thing making it unbalanced (champion points). Champion points are giving people builds things their class should not have which is messing with the game balance. Something has to change with the champion point system

It's because they are relying on the same stuff that making what they are complaining about OP. The people they are complaining about are just doing it better than them

Saint_Bud

1.5 PVP Campain Server!!!

Kay1

It's called Azura Star, is a campaign for people like you, you're welcome .

Durham

Please close down the No CP campaign please all that has created is a minority of players that are trying to push a certain type of game play on the rest of us... please Balance around CP .... close the no CP campaign down

QuebraRegra

Even with NO CPs, there's something else out of balance...

I had been re-enjoying BWB for the last week, but last night several EP character I ran into was capable of tanking ridiculous amounts of damage. I'm not talking about just good tanking, I'm talking about being near invulnerable to 5-7 people beating on a single EP for as much as 5 minutes before the group either started dying or the EP got bored and ran off... or we did.

How can this happen in BWB with NO CP?!?! There's no way, a single person should be able to tank like that.. borkd.

yeah, yeah, I know the 7 random people zerging the 1 guy should just LEARN TO PLAY? LOL!

Durham

thankyourat wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Buffler wrote: »

Yubarius wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Azura's Star is the best PvP campaign.

About 4 months ago, whenever i heard people say that statement i just thought they were smug players that thought they were better than everyone else, but about a month ago I started playing and OH BOY is it better than trueflame. Less lag, requires skillful play, resource management is more important so the insane one shot burst is almost non existent. Pls remove cp from PvP

No, your happy with no CP, thats great...stay in the no cp campaign. Dont force it on others.

I'm ok with this so long as the whining about infinite resources, infinitank, and one shot builds doesn't bring nerfs on things that are perfectly fine in Azuras

I find it funny that everyone complains about how unbalanced PvP is but doesn't want a change to the main thing making it unbalanced (champion points). Champion points are giving people builds things their class should not have which is messing with the game balance. Something has to change with the champion point system

Playing on AZ there is also unbalance don't fool yourself..
. I also no longer like like the fact that ZOS has created a No CP campaign all its done is create 2 types of PVP .. Now each of the other camps complain about the two styles of PVP affecting each other in balance, however the minority camp is the loudest...

Removing CP will *** more people off then it will ever bring into PVP .. On NA PC our pvp population is already small compared to other platforms you need to also keep this in mind ...

QuebraRegra

Durham wrote: »

Please close down the No CP campaign please all that has created is a minority of players that are trying to push a certain type of game play on the rest of us... please Balance around CP .... close the no CP campaign down

The goal should be balance, but I'm not certain that's what "everyone" actually wants

I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can balance around the CP power creep. they're changing somethings in MORROWIND with CP, but overall it's just a broken system of power creep. Maybe if they had made the bonuses more subtle and with more focus on utility, but not with the current percentages.

That said, CP is clearly not the only problem.

Durham

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Please close down the No CP campaign please all that has created is a minority of players that are trying to push a certain type of game play on the rest of us... please Balance around CP .... close the no CP campaign down

The goal should be balance, but I'm not certain that's what "everyone" actually wants

I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can balance around the CP power creep. they're changing somethings in MORROWIND with CP, but overall it's just a broken system of power creep. Maybe if they had made the bonuses more subtle and with more focus on utility, but not with the current percentages.

That said, CP is clearly not the only problem.

I agree with you that most people do not truly care about balance...
Keep in mind many that play a mmorpg especially on the PC platform are usually an older group that has played many mmorpgs in the past, they have all had constant balance issues... DAOC the grandfather of this PVP is still balancing after 16 years.. DAOC has realm ranks which is a pvp character progression that creates unbalance yes but it also motivates people to build and play...
Taking away CP eliminates character progression and demotivates remember this is a mmorpg people want to be different they want to have an advantage over someone that has just started playing the game last week.. you eliminate that you eliminate the element of the mmorpg of the game for most people... this is why you guys are getting harsh opposition from a large segment of the pvp population...

Remember there was a no CP week but a larger % still choose TF... and Had which is still good at primetime... why because people like to use that character progression in PVP also...

With character progression there is always going to balance issues even in PVE it causes balance issues in fact it's worse then PVP... . but without it do you have a mmorpg?

MurderMostFoul

This is how to fix it:

Campaigns - CP

Battlegrounds - No CP

Something for everyone, CP is removed where the problems it creates would be most obvious. It is left in where PvP still has PvE elements and is tied more to the story.

FENGRUSH

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This is how to fix it:

Campaigns - CP

Battlegrounds - No CP

Something for everyone, CP is removed where the problems it creates would be most obvious. It is left in where PvP still has PvE elements and is tied more to the story.

Pretty much - I prefer no CP in PvP. We shouldnt push it on anyone though. Ideally, we keep CP - and it continuously gets reworked so we can keep it. Today its not good though. Some people play nonCP, some play CP campaigns - on PC NA the nonCP has grown a lot. AD has more players on nonCP now then the main campaign. And if activity remains the other factions will do the same. Its pretty awesome.

NonCP BGs is not to force people into something - its to avoid a broken system honestly. Cant release BGs into an environment and have people trolling a large % of the games. Currently, youd be able to do that.

technohic

FENGRUSH wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This is how to fix it:

Campaigns - CP

Battlegrounds - No CP

Something for everyone, CP is removed where the problems it creates would be most obvious. It is left in where PvP still has PvE elements and is tied more to the story.

Pretty much - I prefer no CP in PvP. We shouldnt push it on anyone though. Ideally, we keep CP - and it continuously gets reworked so we can keep it. Today its not good though. Some people play nonCP, some play CP campaigns - on PC NA the nonCP has grown a lot. AD has more players on nonCP now then the main campaign. And if activity remains the other factions will do the same. Its pretty awesome.

NonCP BGs is not to force people into something - its to avoid a broken system honestly. Cant release BGs into an environment and have people trolling a large % of the games. Currently, youd be able to do that.

I just keep picturing unkillable tanks capturing the flags. No longer can just ignore them at that point.

Durham

FENGRUSH wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This is how to fix it:

Campaigns - CP

Battlegrounds - No CP

Something for everyone, CP is removed where the problems it creates would be most obvious. It is left in where PvP still has PvE elements and is tied more to the story.

Pretty much - I prefer no CP in PvP. We shouldnt push it on anyone though. Ideally, we keep CP - and it continuously gets reworked so we can keep it. Today its not good though. Some people play nonCP, some play CP campaigns - on PC NA the nonCP has grown a lot. AD has more players on nonCP now then the main campaign. And if activity remains the other factions will do the same. Its pretty awesome.

NonCP BGs is not to force people into something - its to avoid a broken system honestly. Cant release BGs into an environment and have people trolling a large % of the games. Currently, youd be able to do that.

Where did you get your AD numbers... You might have a different source so I'm not trying to flame...
Friday night
-Trueflame was locked yellow with a 15 Q
-Haderous 3 bars on yellow on the weekends none ×2 event weeks they will hit cap during prime time sometimes.
-Azstar was showing cap yellow however I was able to port in

But I do agree non CP has grown but not at the point of non CP... keep in mind there are other platforms.

Most mmorpg players do not want complete Balance because of player progression must still take place in a mmorpg.. if not then we are left with a fantasy counter strike game...
.

Minno

Durham wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This is how to fix it:

Campaigns - CP

Battlegrounds - No CP

Something for everyone, CP is removed where the problems it creates would be most obvious. It is left in where PvP still has PvE elements and is tied more to the story.

Pretty much - I prefer no CP in PvP. We shouldnt push it on anyone though. Ideally, we keep CP - and it continuously gets reworked so we can keep it. Today its not good though. Some people play nonCP, some play CP campaigns - on PC NA the nonCP has grown a lot. AD has more players on nonCP now then the main campaign. And if activity remains the other factions will do the same. Its pretty awesome.

NonCP BGs is not to force people into something - its to avoid a broken system honestly. Cant release BGs into an environment and have people trolling a large % of the games. Currently, youd be able to do that.

Where did you get your AD numbers... You might have a different source so I'm not trying to flame...
Friday night
-Trueflame was locked yellow with a 15 Q
-Haderous 3 bars on yellow on the weekends none ×2 event weeks they will hit cap during prime time sometimes.
-Azstar was showing cap yellow however I was able to port in

But I do agree non CP has grown but not at the point of non CP... keep in mind there are other platforms.

Most mmorpg players do not want complete Balance because of player progression must still take place in a mmorpg.. if not then we are left with a fantasy counter strike game...
.

Ultima online/sandbox mmos would like to disagree lol.

An MMO without progression is not profitable since there's nothing keeping you in the game week after week unless there's a shiny stat/gear you can wave around. Instant gratification in an incredibly powerful tool for any market.

Tbh, an RPG that can keep you in the game without bribing you with shiny new things, is a strong game. It means the gameplay is intuitive, engaged, and provides freedom that allows one to RP. If ESO pvp was lag free and truly "play as you like", we would see more players. This is why the launch version of the game was so strong; many players came expecting a Elder Scrolls open world MMO.

We as a gaming community forgot what it meant to play video games. Fun and inspiring turned to badges/earned prizes to prove ones ability.

FENGRUSH

Durham wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This is how to fix it:

Campaigns - CP

Battlegrounds - No CP

Something for everyone, CP is removed where the problems it creates would be most obvious. It is left in where PvP still has PvE elements and is tied more to the story.

Pretty much - I prefer no CP in PvP. We shouldnt push it on anyone though. Ideally, we keep CP - and it continuously gets reworked so we can keep it. Today its not good though. Some people play nonCP, some play CP campaigns - on PC NA the nonCP has grown a lot. AD has more players on nonCP now then the main campaign. And if activity remains the other factions will do the same. Its pretty awesome.

NonCP BGs is not to force people into something - its to avoid a broken system honestly. Cant release BGs into an environment and have people trolling a large % of the games. Currently, youd be able to do that.

Where did you get your AD numbers... You might have a different source so I'm not trying to flame...
Friday night
-Trueflame was locked yellow with a 15 Q
-Haderous 3 bars on yellow on the weekends none ×2 event weeks they will hit cap during prime time sometimes.
-Azstar was showing cap yellow however I was able to port in

But I do agree non CP has grown but not at the point of non CP... keep in mind there are other platforms.

Most mmorpg players do not want complete Balance because of player progression must still take place in a mmorpg.. if not then we are left with a fantasy counter strike game...
.

I wasnt comparing to other factions - but the last couple times I saw azuras locked with AD (like last night) TF wasnt even locked for AD. All Im trying to say is more people are coming - and AD desperately needed numbers, so thats a good thing. some DC had left because other factions werent there as much. Point is, its developing a better pop than since Ive been here the past few months.

Its definitely not at TF, and I dont expect that. Most people are used to playing with CP and dont want to branch out and do something else. Also in part with that - they dont want to make new builds or "lose their CP they worked for" is commonly referenced.

CTSCold

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Even with NO CPs, there's something else out of balance...

I had been re-enjoying BWB for the last week, but last night several EP character I ran into was capable of tanking ridiculous amounts of damage. I'm not talking about just good tanking, I'm talking about being near invulnerable to 5-7 people beating on a single EP for as much as 5 minutes before the group either started dying or the EP got bored and ran off... or we did.

How can this happen in BWB with NO CP?!?! There's no way, a single person should be able to tank like that.. borkd.

yeah, yeah, I know the 7 random people zerging the 1 guy should just LEARN TO PLAY? LOL!

BwB places such a high importance on gear quality and level. If that guy had gear within 3 levels of his level and had golded it out (which some of the BwB lifers do) they become stronger than a max cp character. BwB has problems entirely unrelated to CP.

As far as CP is concerned i feel that they just need to limit it. Keep the stat increases and the threshold passives but remove the chosen passives for PVP.

Just my two cents.

LegacyDM

FENGRUSH wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This is how to fix it:

Campaigns - CP

Battlegrounds - No CP

Something for everyone, CP is removed where the problems it creates would be most obvious. It is left in where PvP still has PvE elements and is tied more to the story.

Pretty much - I prefer no CP in PvP. We shouldnt push it on anyone though. Ideally, we keep CP - and it continuously gets reworked so we can keep it. Today its not good though. Some people play nonCP, some play CP campaigns - on PC NA the nonCP has grown a lot. AD has more players on nonCP now then the main campaign. And if activity remains the other factions will do the same. Its pretty awesome.

NonCP BGs is not to force people into something - its to avoid a broken system honestly. Cant release BGs into an environment and have people trolling a large % of the games. Currently, youd be able to do that.

I don't know how they would rework cps in its current form. It's cancerous to the development of the game and creates continual power creep. Wrobels only solution is to continuely nerf resource management while raising caps. Unfortunatly, so many people are addicted to cps under the guise of character progression it's hard for zos to do anything else but feed the addiction.

Why not push it? At some point something is going to have to give. Better push it now than later. This cp progression can't last forever. At some point every tree will be maxed out at 100%. When that happens two things will happen. Progression will stop and balance will be out of control. Nerfing resource management is only scratching the surface of the problems to come. There are other cp skills that will need to be nerfed as the caps are raised. This constant nerf and rework is not sustainable and takes resources away from things wrobel could be working on.

Zos has too many areas to balance around. They need to seriously think about consolidation. Indirectly They already know it's a problem because it's not in BG.

Any pc serious pvper knows this and is preparing for BG which is why you may be seeing an influx into azura.

NBrookus

LegacyDM wrote: »

I don't know how they would rework cps in its current form. It's cancerous to the development of the game and creates continual power creep. Wrobels only solution is to continuely nerf resource management while raising caps. Unfortunatly, so many people are addicted to cps under the guise of character progression it's hard for zos to do anything else but feed the addiction.

Honestly, the CP system needs to be completely overhauled. You should have to choose character progress between some combination of more damage, more mitigation or more resources, not get equal amounts of all three. The passives you unlock are actually pretty cool and can help people tailor their playstyle (or in a few cases, RP) -- more emphasis there would be interesting to think about instead of deciding how many points you want to put in Ele Defender versus Hardy.

Nerfing CPs, or halving them in Battlespirit just punts the ball farther down the road.

DragonBound

Panda_iMunch wrote: »

To be fair, the cp system was doomed from the start. Anyone who has played any game knows that scaling up stats indefinitely dose nothing other than introduce a grind, make enemies one shots for you and them, or make the game stupidly easy.

Guess that's what happens when your try to band wagon off of Skyrim's skill system, you are reminded of how not to do RPGs.

Alternate advancement systems has existed in mmorpgs for a long time, there is nothing wrong with them in a more pve focused mmorpg. But the issue is they need to be changed in pvp grounds.

TheBonesXXX

*** truth about CP is that it makes half of the gearsets in this game relevant. *** truth about gear in this game is that it has such a huge impact on gameplay.

Zeni does not build around base game mechanics such as roll dodging, block, attacking; attack speed, movement speed ie animations and mechanics rather it balances around sheer numbers, problem being is that crunched numbers and the "mathematicians" or engineer wannabes never account for how things actually work, rather than how they should work in theory and things are often faulty tested.

Putting passive offense and defensive in a very pro/re active game is just plain stupidity. The smartest thing they're doing is removing dumb-*** like passive cost reduction in the CP tree.

Its akin to me being a welder and telling an Engineer how to do their job, just because it looks good doesn't meant it is good.

Theres still going to be problems even in the no CP campaign, I can slap on certain sets and just be a crash test dummy and have people blinded and just press a few heal keys to make sure damage is otherwise completely negated.

Theres a lot of balance problems that haven't come up yet, but I can run around and passively blind my enemies and heal my group for absolutely nothing.

Players can jump into a crowd and blow 40+ people up, granted its needed because of the Turd Hurds running around.. but I rather just whip out a ballista and blow up a crowd.

Yes, if a player get hit with a ballista you deserve to not only have your character die but its armour completely nuked for a 1.5k repair bill because you're stupid enough to clump up.

Malamar1229

If CP is completely removed,
a)poisons need toned down
b)diminshing rtns on snare
c)certain abilities and ultimates need toning down.

Silly thought, pve sets add 5% dmg to pve bosses....how do you feel about a similar 4 or 5pc bonus to distinguish pvp sets?

Gan Xing

Having played PvP for almost 3 years now, I've seen the negative effects CP has had. I thought it would get better, and it did make me stronger temporarily, but that doesn't last. I noticed that my skill got worse as I had that CP pillow. Since I switched over to Azura's, I've had to change up my play style to refocus on being able to sustain. It's a good challenge, and I still get crushed by experienced players like @FENGRUSH . You would think that having played for so long, I would be decent... (I blame it on jumping around on too many different characters)

cschwingeb14_ESO

Buffler wrote: »

Yubarius wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Azura's Star is the best PvP campaign.

About 4 months ago, whenever i heard people say that statement i just thought they were smug players that thought they were better than everyone else, but about a month ago I started playing and OH BOY is it better than trueflame. Less lag, requires skillful play, resource management is more important so the insane one shot burst is almost non existent. Pls remove cp from PvP

No, your happy with no CP, thats great...stay in the no cp campaign. Dont force it on others.

You're missing the point, BGs are either going to be CP or no-CP. I already need a seperate PvP great set. I'd rather not have to have 2-3 setups.

And while it's easy to say just pick one or the other:

Balance of class and weapon lines with CP and without CP will be different. They already have enough trouble balancing PvE and PvP with the same skills. Now they'll have to balance: PvE, CP-PvP and noCP-PvP?

The PvP rule set needs to be consolidated: with CP (and heavily water down the CP benefit) or no-CP

t3hdubzy

Id play no cp if it was all no cp but im not going to wait around trying to stimulate a campaign. Playing pvdoor is no fun and those guards are quite difficult when tjey are maxed out. Its not impossible, just not interested in pve in cyrodil.

visionality

The problem with cp is that they are 100% additive. You can invest them into
- more regen
- more damage
- more damage mitigation
all at once. Combined with the right skills and sets, you can quickly achieve one of the cancer builds that make cp-PVP so annoying.

There is an easy fix: instead of unreflectedly adding up, CPs should divide: Invest CPs in more damage, but give up resistance for it. Invest CPs in more regen, but give up damage for it ... etc etc.

Interestingly enough, the impact for PVE would be minor because endgame PVE-builds are already highly specialized.

And everybody who does not want to run around like a total glasscannon could always chose a more balanced CP-path where his damage is not maximized, but his build has better sustain and survivability.