Look, zos, just remove CPs from PvP

Ankael07

Heruthema wrote: »

NO every server has a non CP campaign. Use that one if you want but do not force everyone to play your way.

What about when developers make balance changes around CP ? When they brought 60% resource poisons were they trying to adress builds in Azura's Star?

Iyas

Ankael07 wrote: »

Heruthema wrote: »

NO every server has a non CP campaign. Use that one if you want but do not force everyone to play your way.

What about when developers make balance changes around CP ? When they brought 60% resource poisons were they trying to adress builds in Azura's Star?

Oh and dont forget they made all skills more expensive when cps got introduced. So we could grind that back with cps. The game is totally balanced around cps.

Miswar

There is already No CP campaigns available so basically NO to this nerf.

Mayrael

diesel5304 wrote: »

I use to play on the non-cp campaigns a lot due to the fact that my cp was really low, I'm now around 490 something and have been on the cp camps now for awhile and do enjoy it more than non-cp. I feel like the quality of players I play with and against are just much better and it makes the experience more fun.

You sir will be damned by this thread lovers:) The only people that want the CPs to be removed from PvP are the ones that cant handle in CP enviorment. CP are allowing you to push behind the borders, and when you dont know which way to push... You have no CP campain, come on play there if you want. If most of the players would like to play noCP PvP, Azura would be poplocked, not Truflame - forums doesnt represent majority, as majority even has no accouts here.
In addition, if they would remove CPs from PvP for me and for many caped pvpers they could completly shut down the servers, as I do pve when I must. So no CP in PvP for me means no progression, no progression = lack of purpose, lack of purpose = switch to other game.
(and no, during noCP event I wasnt trashed, I was even stronger when compared to the background...). But since Im not a streamer, I dont know what Im talking about, Ive just spend 80% of last 3 years in Cyrodiil.

Brrrofski

I wish we had it on EU Xbox.

Nobody plays azura's. Like there is actually nobody in there unless they're doing PVE.

Builds you can make currently are broken. Healbot Templars, forever rollers, heavy armor DKs and Stam sorc never running out of resources, sorcs that nuke you in 3 shots if you're not in heavy etc.

Damage, survivability and sustain is just way way too much.

FloppyTouch

Mayrael wrote: »

diesel5304 wrote: »

I use to play on the non-cp campaigns a lot due to the fact that my cp was really low, I'm now around 490 something and have been on the cp camps now for awhile and do enjoy it more than non-cp. I feel like the quality of players I play with and against are just much better and it makes the experience more fun.

You sir will be damned by this thread lovers:) The only people that want the CPs to be removed from PvP are the ones that cant handle in CP enviorment. CP are allowing you to push behind the borders, and when you dont know which way to push... You have no CP campain, come on play there if you want. If most of the players would like to play noCP PvP, Azura would be poplocked, not Truflame - forums doesnt represent majority, as majority even has no accouts here.
In addition, if they would remove CPs from PvP for me and for many caped pvpers they could completly shut down the servers, as I do pve when I must. So no CP in PvP for me means no progression, no progression = lack of purpose, lack of purpose = switch to other game.
(and no, during noCP event I wasnt trashed, I was even stronger when compared to the background...). But since Im not a streamer, I dont know what Im talking about, Ive just spend 80% of last 3 years in Cyrodiil.

Many people that don't join the forums feel the same as you and me. I agree I did not work for 3 years for it not to be part of my build and success. I don't think I'll leave game but will probably play pve way more and not pvp as much I need progression to keep playing not a FPS game it's why I play MMORPGs

silky_soft

Good players are always good. You see it when they removed cp and we will see it again in BG when they come. Just bring back soft caps so we can use more of the sets and scale all aoe like proxy det. The more your stack the more your hurt.

Enslaved

So, what you guys want here is to defecate on every single player who spent a shietton of time to get to max CP. How about no?

There is non CP campaign, please, go there and enjoy non CP PvP.

Mihael

If it took you 3 years to get to max cp then rip lol it took me 2 months.

Brrrofski

Enslaved wrote: »

So, what you guys want here is to defecate on every single player who spent a shietton of time to get to max CP. How about no?

There is non CP campaign, please, go there and enjoy non CP PvP.

I have 808 cp and still want it gone. I play solo most the time and want it gone. What's your point?

There is nobody in the no cp campaign on Xbox EU.

Enslaved

Brrrofski wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

So, what you guys want here is to defecate on every single player who spent a shietton of time to get to max CP. How about no?

There is non CP campaign, please, go there and enjoy non CP PvP.

I have 808 cp and still want it gone. I play solo most the time and want it gone. What's your point?

There is nobody in the no cp campaign on Xbox EU.

So, because YOU can't find enough ppl to kill on pleb box, all shall suffer on all platforms to please you. Gr8 m8, I r8 u 8/8

Ihatenightblades

LegacyDM wrote: »

Zos, it was a noble effort. But just rip the bandaid off and remove cps from pvp. It's clear you can't balance around cps. I give you a bronze medal for effort though... this continuous resource management nerf every major update is getting rediculous. Looks as if in morrowind you will nerf again.

I just switched over to azura and the experience was amazing. No lag, no invincible heavy armor dps dishing healbots. I actually think it's fairly balanced. Now I understand why some of the top players like fengrush and Krotha switched over.

It's clear you cant balance cps. Every time you raise cp caps it reinforces cancer builds. Today it will be resources so you nerf resources. What happens when you nerf resource management to hell and you continue raising caps? Then blessed and quick recovery will become op and so forth. Then you will have to address those. It's an unwinnable battle. If your already entertaining the changing of cps or not allowing cps in battlegrounds than what is the point? It's also clear you have no confidence in your abilities to balance cps if you are just removing them from battlegrounds or changing cp categories.

Just scrap it and leave it intact for pve where no one has any complaints or issues. It will make life easier for you to balance around without cps.

Sorry folks but cp campaigns are trash. Once you go no cp and design a build that works there is no reason to go back. It's just a better experience, trust me.

I like cp campaign... its where i get to use the stuff that took me countless hours to get.

I say keep trying ZoS the cost reduction will be a huge factor and will definitely eliminate tons of cancer builds

WhiteMage

Enslaved wrote: »

So, what you guys want here is to defecate on every single player who spent a shietton of time to get to max CP. How about no?

There is non CP campaign, please, go there and enjoy non CP PvP.

What do you say about those players who spent that time and advocate the removal of CP anyway? [SNIP]: Now open up and take your medicine because it's good for you.


Bigger numbers are for vertical progression which is for PvE (except, even that is getting phased out). Bigger numbers themselves are either direct indicators of power creep, which is harmful anywhere, or are flat out illusions. An illusion doesn't hurt anyone though, so we could increase all numbers by a factor of 2, or 10, or 100. That doesn't bother me one bit so long as EVERYTHING goes with it. In fact, I think this has happened once before in ESO. They could do it again for all I care, for all any PvPer cares, and it would probably tickle the PvEers who love to see ever larger numbers in their crits, despite the emptiness of it.

If you insist on progression, then what we need is horizontal progression that allows for the diversification of builds. In fact, it should encourage it, even mandate it depending how ambitious you want to be. You need to increase the toolkit, provide new abilities (read not as: skills) and more options to maintain the spice of PvP. It's true that every PvPer wants to crush his enemies, but he wants to do it in unique ways or very difficult ways to exert his dominance over his opponents in a dynamic setting. That's why he does not play against NPCs, things that are absurdly predictable. Using sheer numbers to crush your opponents is gratifying from time to time, whether with a zerg or vastly superior stats, but opponents who can't fight back meaningfully don't facilitate dynamic fights and in the case of PvP may even stop fighting and leave, which is absolutely counter to what a PvPer wants.

What does CP give us? Power creep; vertical progression disguised as horizontal progression, though with each CP cap increase the facade fades even more. Some character limitations are ignored (Vengeance), others circumvented (Unchained), the lack of caps on some stats are exposed and exacerbated (critical chance), an entire realm of counterplay is ignored (resource regeneration), very powerful stats become easily accessible (incoming healing, reduced damage), and specializations are narrowed based on damage type. Is CP a problem? YES. Does it have to be? NO.

The easiest, most effective solution just happens to be removing it.

[Edited for Bait] EDIT: I put it back in because it was not a bait, it was an overreaction as the result of a misunderstanding.

Enslaved

WhiteMage wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

So, what you guys want here is to defecate on every single player who spent a shietton of time to get to max CP. How about no?

There is non CP campaign, please, go there and enjoy non CP PvP.

What do you say about those players who spent that time and advocate the removal of CP anyway? I've been there, I've done that, I've got the T-shirt, and I've been wearing it for about a year now. Now open up and take your medicine because it's good for you.


Bigger numbers are for vertical progression which is for PvE (except, even that is getting phased out). Bigger numbers themselves are either direct indicators of power creep, which is harmful anywhere, or are flat out illusions. An illusion doesn't hurt anyone though, so we could increase all numbers by a factor of 2, or 10, or 100. That doesn't bother me one bit so long as EVERYTHING goes with it. In fact, I think this has happened once before in ESO. They could do it again for all I care, for all any PvPer cares, and it would probably tickle the PvEers who love to see ever larger numbers in their crits, despite the emptiness of it.

If you insist on progression, then what we need is horizontal progression that allows for the diversification of builds. In fact, it should encourage it, even mandate it depending how ambitious you want to be. You need to increase the toolkit, provide new abilities (read not as: skills) and more options to maintain the spice of PvP. It's true that every PvPer wants to crush his enemies, but he wants to do it in unique ways or very difficult ways to exert his dominance over his opponents in a dynamic setting. That's why he does not play against NPCs, things that are absurdly predictable. Using sheer numbers to crush your opponents is gratifying from time to time, whether with a zerg or vastly superior stats, but opponents who can't fight back meaningfully don't facilitate dynamic fights and in the case of PvP may even stop fighting and leave, which is absolutely counter to what a PvPer wants.

What does CP give us? Power creep; vertical progression disguised as horizontal progression, though with each CP cap increase the facade fades even more. Some character limitations are ignored (Vengeance), others circumvented (Unchained), the lack of caps on some stats are exposed and exacerbated (critical chance), an entire realm of counterplay is ignored (resource regeneration), very powerful stats become easily accessible (incoming healing, reduced damage), and specializations are narrowed based on damage type. Is CP a problem? YES. Does it have to be? NO.

The easiest, most effective solution just happens to be removing it.

When someone has zero arguments, he goes for bs like "take your medicine". Reported and ignored. Shame on you, foolish one.

Derra

Why doesn´t everyone who wants no CP in pvp go to azura?

I mean there are people who happen to enjoy playing with CP?

WhiteMage

Enslaved wrote: »

WhiteMage wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

So, what you guys want here is to defecate on every single player who spent a shietton of time to get to max CP. How about no?

There is non CP campaign, please, go there and enjoy non CP PvP.

What do you say about those players who spent that time and advocate the removal of CP anyway? I've been there, I've done that, I've got the T-shirt, and I've been wearing it for about a year now. Now open up and take your medicine because it's good for you.


Bigger numbers are for vertical progression which is for PvE (except, even that is getting phased out). Bigger numbers themselves are either direct indicators of power creep, which is harmful anywhere, or are flat out illusions. An illusion doesn't hurt anyone though, so we could increase all numbers by a factor of 2, or 10, or 100. That doesn't bother me one bit so long as EVERYTHING goes with it. In fact, I think this has happened once before in ESO. They could do it again for all I care, for all any PvPer cares, and it would probably tickle the PvEers who love to see ever larger numbers in their crits, despite the emptiness of it.

If you insist on progression, then what we need is horizontal progression that allows for the diversification of builds. In fact, it should encourage it, even mandate it depending how ambitious you want to be. You need to increase the toolkit, provide new abilities (read not as: skills) and more options to maintain the spice of PvP. It's true that every PvPer wants to crush his enemies, but he wants to do it in unique ways or very difficult ways to exert his dominance over his opponents in a dynamic setting. That's why he does not play against NPCs, things that are absurdly predictable. Using sheer numbers to crush your opponents is gratifying from time to time, whether with a zerg or vastly superior stats, but opponents who can't fight back meaningfully don't facilitate dynamic fights and in the case of PvP may even stop fighting and leave, which is absolutely counter to what a PvPer wants.

What does CP give us? Power creep; vertical progression disguised as horizontal progression, though with each CP cap increase the facade fades even more. Some character limitations are ignored (Vengeance), others circumvented (Unchained), the lack of caps on some stats are exposed and exacerbated (critical chance), an entire realm of counterplay is ignored (resource regeneration), very powerful stats become easily accessible (incoming healing, reduced damage), and specializations are narrowed based on damage type. Is CP a problem? YES. Does it have to be? NO.

The easiest, most effective solution just happens to be removing it.

When someone has zero arguments, he goes for bs like "take your medicine". Reported and ignored. Shame on you, foolish one.

Mhmm... Because the following paragraphs contained no argument... No, I'm not going to let you have the last word by just blanketly dismissing the rest of the post, no matter how TL;DR. In comparison to my post, you provide nothing more than an unsupported opinion.

But that's not the key issue here. That "take your medicine" "bs" is not a derogatory "you're insane; you should be on drugs to treat your mental problems", it's a "you have a cold and even though this cough syrup is bitter, it will make you feel better." To me that was pretty clear, but I don't blame you for misunderstanding after reading it in haste, coupled with my tone and word choice. The real shame would be if you actually ignored me for that. That's not really my concern though.

If you actually didn't ignore me, it's a charged subject, but feel free to engage in a bit of discourse.

LegacyDM

Enslaved wrote: »

So, what you guys want here is to defecate on every single player who spent a shietton of time to get to max CP. How about no?

There is non CP campaign, please, go there and enjoy non CP PvP.

Cps can't go up for ever.

I'm tired of Zos raising cp caps just for them to find something to Nerf. Thats not balance. It's Zos doesn't know wtf they are doing with cps. It's smoke and mirrors. Zos is giving the illusion of vertical progression but nerfing you in the process. In this case, Raise cps, but Nerf resources on the backend so you are really at a negative advantage or 0 sum game. All because wrobel thinks endless resources is what's causing the op meta in cp world. What happens when cps reach the breaking point in other stats? In the meantime, when he screws with resources he is screwing non cp players the most.

I'm at 750 cps. I worked hard. I ran 2 characters through tamerial back when it took 1.5 mill xp a level to get to vet16 and this was before cps were introduced. I got 70 cps account wide to show for that effort. Zos took a dump on me when they removed vet levels. Get used to it. It's called adapting. You can keep your cps for Pve. Enjoy the balance of not having to worry about cps or enjoy Zos playing stat Nerf hell Every time they do an update. Build a character around no cps. You may be pleasantly surprised how fun and balances it is compared to the damage pumping heavy armor instant healing meta bs.

Derra

LegacyDM wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Why are most ppl ok with fewer options? I dont get it.

You have the option to play nocp on azura. So go there but let the ppl stay on TF who enjoy CPs

And give the ppl the option to Queue for CP and/or no cp Bgs. Why do you want to force the CP players to do something they dont like.

Jeez its like the hardcore vegans who want to force their way on everyone

Rudyard wrote: »

Why do you want to take away player choice? The current system has both options; why reduce that?

Simple. They can't balance cp campaign. They never will. It's always going to be a contradiction. You can't raise both cps while simultaneously buffing and nerfing at the same time. Example, 3 updates of resource nerfs just to admit defeat and scrap a cp to something else. Which is what they are proposing in mortowind. Are they going to do that for other cp categories that will lead to opness? What are they going to do with defense cps? How about healing cps? scope creep is becoming a balancing nightmare. Look, I'm not saying get rid of cp altogether, use it in pve for maelstrom or trials.

They are already not endorsing cp with battle ground. Normally I would agree with you guys but I think cutting cps in pvp would be healthy for the game in the long run. Wrobel could focus his resources around balancing 1 game type. Wheeler could focus his efforts on fixing performance issues around 1 game type. Lambert could develop armor types around 1 type. Short answer it makes it easier for the devs to design and balance translating into less problems. The devs would then be free to focus on other areas of the game like spellcasting and new classes. I think the devs time is eaten up by self inflicted over ambitions.

The writing is on the wall folks. You think that 1 week no cp test was to test performance? Maybe it was but I would also submit to you it was to test the players reactions, evaluate community feedback, and look at technical data. Zos is distancing themselves from cps as evident in bg.

And some people prefer the CP imbalance over the nonCP imbalance - which both have issues just different ones. NonCP favors numbers even more than CP does - because by now the game has been adjusted and balanced entirely around CP. Skillcost has been increase two times by now after CP introduction and is way beyond anything we had prior to CP (just as an example - my CS used to cost me 135 magica which would be equivalent to 1350 today but due to adjustments made to skillcosts it costs 1675 in a comparable setup while having CP costreduction - skillcost in relation to regen is nowadays higher than it was in 1.5) . Resourcepools have been reduced when CP got introduced. Costreduction has seen a passive nerf when CP got introduced.

Also going for two different gamemodes with having to balance skills and mechanics around nonCP pvp and CPenables PVE will create way more backlash than simply putting effort into fixing the CP system itself. IMHO.

SnubbS

The no-cp campaign just isn't a lot of fun. The gameplay is slower, the damage is lower and numbers matter even more. It's fun to group-play in because it virtually eliminates any bit of challenge outside of another organized group. Maybe that's what ZoS wants—a game of 12-16 man ball groups stacking on crown and syncing ults.

Enslaved

LegacyDM wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

So, what you guys want here is to defecate on every single player who spent a shietton of time to get to max CP. How about no?

There is non CP campaign, please, go there and enjoy non CP PvP.

Cps can't go up for ever.

I'm tired of Zos raising cp caps just for them to find something to Nerf. Thats not balance. It's Zos doesn't know wtf they are doing with cps. It's smoke and mirrors. Zos is giving the illusion of vertical progression but nerfing you in the process. In this case, Raise cps, but Nerf resources on the backend so you are really at a negative advantage or 0 sum game. All because wrobel thinks endless resources is what's causing the op meta in cp world. What happens when cps reach the breaking point in other stats? In the meantime, when he screws with resources he is screwing non cp players the most.

I'm at 750 cps. I worked hard. I ran 2 characters through tamerial back when it took 1.5 mill xp a level to get to vet16 and this was before cps were introduced. I got 70 cps account wide to show for that effort. Zos took a dump on me when they removed vet levels. Get used to it. It's called adapting. You can keep your cps for Pve. Enjoy the balance of not having to worry about cps or enjoy Zos playing stat Nerf hell Every time they do an update. Build a character around no cps. You may be pleasantly surprised how fun and balances it is compared to the damage pumping heavy armor instant healing meta bs.

You speak of adapting as if I haven't adapted countless times so far. Also, if CPs are not removed, why do you take it as something that is already decided to be done? I bet there are far to many ppl who don't want their CP levels removed from PvP. And why is it such a problem to go to non CP campaign? Why do you want to force this on everyone? I didn't see ppl advocating the removal of non CP campaigns, so why do you want CP campaigns removed? You call it balance, and I say that it is simply a punishment for everyone but players with low CP/no CP at all. Do we deserve to be punished? What did we do wrong?

If they remove CP from PvP I will reconsider my subscription.

BohnT

Non cp is one of the most boring things in this game.
Everyone is scared as they can't sustain longer than 20 seconds on their own. When 2ppl with poison hit you you are totally dammed unless you are a templar. Gankers are everywhere and are much more powerful than in the cp campaigns. Most ppl can't take a resource on their own so there is no incentive to play solo or in a small group.
Azura is the biggest zerg fest on pc EU and it was even worse during 2x ap week as we had like 3 giant blobs walking through cyrodiil and the one with more destro ultis/ poisons won the fight.
Also there were those cancer builds stam sorc is op af in non cp, gap closer- destro spam is something you can fight against in cp but without you are dead in no time.

On non cp there are surely zergs aswell but there are also some solo players and some small scalers which do extremely well like kite squad. They can do this because their individual skill is secured with resources in no cp you run out of resources very fast so you rely on heavy attacks and every other player can simply cc you and kill you no matter how good you are. I had a stam build with 5k stam regen on non cp and still I run out very often no matter how bad the players are which encounter me after the first 4 or 5 they have a huge advantage as my resources are at 0.
No resource tactics take skill away from the game not to it.
Of course cancer builds suck but they are op mainly because of the sets they use and not just the cp otherwise every setup would be op cp balances this as everyone has the same tools

LegacyDM

Derra wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Why are most ppl ok with fewer options? I dont get it.

You have the option to play nocp on azura. So go there but let the ppl stay on TF who enjoy CPs

And give the ppl the option to Queue for CP and/or no cp Bgs. Why do you want to force the CP players to do something they dont like.

Jeez its like the hardcore vegans who want to force their way on everyone

Rudyard wrote: »

Why do you want to take away player choice? The current system has both options; why reduce that?

Simple. They can't balance cp campaign. They never will. It's always going to be a contradiction. You can't raise both cps while simultaneously buffing and nerfing at the same time. Example, 3 updates of resource nerfs just to admit defeat and scrap a cp to something else. Which is what they are proposing in mortowind. Are they going to do that for other cp categories that will lead to opness? What are they going to do with defense cps? How about healing cps? scope creep is becoming a balancing nightmare. Look, I'm not saying get rid of cp altogether, use it in pve for maelstrom or trials.

They are already not endorsing cp with battle ground. Normally I would agree with you guys but I think cutting cps in pvp would be healthy for the game in the long run. Wrobel could focus his resources around balancing 1 game type. Wheeler could focus his efforts on fixing performance issues around 1 game type. Lambert could develop armor types around 1 type. Short answer it makes it easier for the devs to design and balance translating into less problems. The devs would then be free to focus on other areas of the game like spellcasting and new classes. I think the devs time is eaten up by self inflicted over ambitions.

The writing is on the wall folks. You think that 1 week no cp test was to test performance? Maybe it was but I would also submit to you it was to test the players reactions, evaluate community feedback, and look at technical data. Zos is distancing themselves from cps as evident in bg.

And some people prefer the CP imbalance over the nonCP imbalance - which both have issues just different ones. NonCP favors numbers even more than CP does - because by now the game has been adjusted and balanced entirely around CP. Skillcost has been increase two times by now after CP introduction and is way beyond anything we had prior to CP (just as an example - my CS used to cost me 135 magica which would be equivalent to 1350 today but due to adjustments made to skillcosts it costs 1675 in a comparable setup while having CP costreduction - skillcost in relation to regen is nowadays higher than it was in 1.5) . Resourcepools have been reduced when CP got introduced. Costreduction has seen a passive nerf when CP got introduced.

Also going for two different gamemodes with having to balance skills and mechanics around nonCP pvp and CPenables PVE will create way more backlash than simply putting effort into fixing the CP system itself. IMHO.

You serious? Have you played non cp? Cp is rediculously imbalanced compared to non cp. cp is broke. It's at the point where Zos is entertaining the idea of completely changing magician and warlord. That's a small piece of the problem. What happens when cp scope creep makes quick recovery, bastion, blessed, hardy, resistant, elemental defender, and all the dps skills op? Does Zos just throw their hands inthe air and keep nerfing every update and change cp categories on the fly?

Sorry man somethings gonna have to give eventually. Cps can't go up for ever. In the meantime wrobel and wheeler are wasting resources they could be using on balancing around 2 game types. No cp pvp and cp pve. That's better than 3.

BohnT

LegacyDM wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Why are most ppl ok with fewer options? I dont get it.

You have the option to play nocp on azura. So go there but let the ppl stay on TF who enjoy CPs

And give the ppl the option to Queue for CP and/or no cp Bgs. Why do you want to force the CP players to do something they dont like.

Jeez its like the hardcore vegans who want to force their way on everyone

Rudyard wrote: »

Why do you want to take away player choice? The current system has both options; why reduce that?

Simple. They can't balance cp campaign. They never will. It's always going to be a contradiction. You can't raise both cps while simultaneously buffing and nerfing at the same time. Example, 3 updates of resource nerfs just to admit defeat and scrap a cp to something else. Which is what they are proposing in mortowind. Are they going to do that for other cp categories that will lead to opness? What are they going to do with defense cps? How about healing cps? scope creep is becoming a balancing nightmare. Look, I'm not saying get rid of cp altogether, use it in pve for maelstrom or trials.

They are already not endorsing cp with battle ground. Normally I would agree with you guys but I think cutting cps in pvp would be healthy for the game in the long run. Wrobel could focus his resources around balancing 1 game type. Wheeler could focus his efforts on fixing performance issues around 1 game type. Lambert could develop armor types around 1 type. Short answer it makes it easier for the devs to design and balance translating into less problems. The devs would then be free to focus on other areas of the game like spellcasting and new classes. I think the devs time is eaten up by self inflicted over ambitions.

The writing is on the wall folks. You think that 1 week no cp test was to test performance? Maybe it was but I would also submit to you it was to test the players reactions, evaluate community feedback, and look at technical data. Zos is distancing themselves from cps as evident in bg.

And some people prefer the CP imbalance over the nonCP imbalance - which both have issues just different ones. NonCP favors numbers even more than CP does - because by now the game has been adjusted and balanced entirely around CP. Skillcost has been increase two times by now after CP introduction and is way beyond anything we had prior to CP (just as an example - my CS used to cost me 135 magica which would be equivalent to 1350 today but due to adjustments made to skillcosts it costs 1675 in a comparable setup while having CP costreduction - skillcost in relation to regen is nowadays higher than it was in 1.5) . Resourcepools have been reduced when CP got introduced. Costreduction has seen a passive nerf when CP got introduced.

Also going for two different gamemodes with having to balance skills and mechanics around nonCP pvp and CPenables PVE will create way more backlash than simply putting effort into fixing the CP system itself. IMHO.

You serious? Have you played non cp? Cp is rediculously imbalanced compared to non cp. cp is broke. It's at the point where Zos is entertaining the idea of completely changing magician and warlord. That's a small piece of the problem. What happens when cp scope creep makes quick recovery, bastion, blessed, hardy, resistant, elemental defender, and all the dps skills op? Does Zos just throw their hands inthe air and keep nerfing every update and change cp categories on the fly?

Sorry man somethings gonna have to give eventually. Cps can't go up for ever. In the meantime wrobel and wheeler are wasting resources they could be using on balancing around 2 game types. No cp pvp and cp pve. That's better than 3.

Why not remove no cp pvp? They could also focus on 2 game types with this

Runschei

LegacyDM wrote: »

Zos, it was a noble effort. But just rip the bandaid off and remove cps from pvp. It's clear you can't balance around cps. I give you a bronze medal for effort though... this continuous resource management nerf every major update is getting rediculous. Looks as if in morrowind you will nerf again.

I just switched over to azura and the experience was amazing. No lag, no invincible heavy armor dps dishing healbots. I actually think it's fairly balanced. Now I understand why some of the top players like fengrush and Krotha switched over.

It's clear you cant balance cps. Every time you raise cp caps it reinforces cancer builds. Today it will be resources so you nerf resources. What happens when you nerf resource management to hell and you continue raising caps? Then blessed and quick recovery will become op and so forth. Then you will have to address those. It's an unwinnable battle. If your already entertaining the changing of cps or not allowing cps in battlegrounds than what is the point? It's also clear you have no confidence in your abilities to balance cps if you are just removing them from battlegrounds or changing cp categories.

Just scrap it and leave it intact for pve where no one has any complaints or issues. It will make life easier for you to balance around without cps.

Sorry folks but cp campaigns are trash. Once you go no cp and design a build that works there is no reason to go back. It's just a better experience, trust me.

You must be on the NA server then

SnubbS

Try this—don't allow Heavy Armor to be equipped in PVP for a week. Let's see how many cancerbuilds, and "Infinite sustain" builds we have then.

LegacyDM

BohnT wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Why are most ppl ok with fewer options? I dont get it.

You have the option to play nocp on azura. So go there but let the ppl stay on TF who enjoy CPs

And give the ppl the option to Queue for CP and/or no cp Bgs. Why do you want to force the CP players to do something they dont like.

Jeez its like the hardcore vegans who want to force their way on everyone

Rudyard wrote: »

Why do you want to take away player choice? The current system has both options; why reduce that?

Simple. They can't balance cp campaign. They never will. It's always going to be a contradiction. You can't raise both cps while simultaneously buffing and nerfing at the same time. Example, 3 updates of resource nerfs just to admit defeat and scrap a cp to something else. Which is what they are proposing in mortowind. Are they going to do that for other cp categories that will lead to opness? What are they going to do with defense cps? How about healing cps? scope creep is becoming a balancing nightmare. Look, I'm not saying get rid of cp altogether, use it in pve for maelstrom or trials.

They are already not endorsing cp with battle ground. Normally I would agree with you guys but I think cutting cps in pvp would be healthy for the game in the long run. Wrobel could focus his resources around balancing 1 game type. Wheeler could focus his efforts on fixing performance issues around 1 game type. Lambert could develop armor types around 1 type. Short answer it makes it easier for the devs to design and balance translating into less problems. The devs would then be free to focus on other areas of the game like spellcasting and new classes. I think the devs time is eaten up by self inflicted over ambitions.

The writing is on the wall folks. You think that 1 week no cp test was to test performance? Maybe it was but I would also submit to you it was to test the players reactions, evaluate community feedback, and look at technical data. Zos is distancing themselves from cps as evident in bg.

And some people prefer the CP imbalance over the nonCP imbalance - which both have issues just different ones. NonCP favors numbers even more than CP does - because by now the game has been adjusted and balanced entirely around CP. Skillcost has been increase two times by now after CP introduction and is way beyond anything we had prior to CP (just as an example - my CS used to cost me 135 magica which would be equivalent to 1350 today but due to adjustments made to skillcosts it costs 1675 in a comparable setup while having CP costreduction - skillcost in relation to regen is nowadays higher than it was in 1.5) . Resourcepools have been reduced when CP got introduced. Costreduction has seen a passive nerf when CP got introduced.

Also going for two different gamemodes with having to balance skills and mechanics around nonCP pvp and CPenables PVE will create way more backlash than simply putting effort into fixing the CP system itself. IMHO.

You serious? Have you played non cp? Cp is rediculously imbalanced compared to non cp. cp is broke. It's at the point where Zos is entertaining the idea of completely changing magician and warlord. That's a small piece of the problem. What happens when cp scope creep makes quick recovery, bastion, blessed, hardy, resistant, elemental defender, and all the dps skills op? Does Zos just throw their hands inthe air and keep nerfing every update and change cp categories on the fly?

Sorry man somethings gonna have to give eventually. Cps can't go up for ever. In the meantime wrobel and wheeler are wasting resources they could be using on balancing around 2 game types. No cp pvp and cp pve. That's better than 3.

Why not remove no cp pvp? They could also focus on 2 game types with this

They could but it doesn't solve their balance issue and they still have a major problem with scope creep which they can't seem to balance. Their solution is keep nerfing which equates to a 0 sum game. It's the illusion of vertical progression. Also it's not friendly to new players or non maxed cp players.

Enslaved

LegacyDM wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Why are most ppl ok with fewer options? I dont get it.

You have the option to play nocp on azura. So go there but let the ppl stay on TF who enjoy CPs

And give the ppl the option to Queue for CP and/or no cp Bgs. Why do you want to force the CP players to do something they dont like.

Jeez its like the hardcore vegans who want to force their way on everyone

Rudyard wrote: »

Why do you want to take away player choice? The current system has both options; why reduce that?

Simple. They can't balance cp campaign. They never will. It's always going to be a contradiction. You can't raise both cps while simultaneously buffing and nerfing at the same time. Example, 3 updates of resource nerfs just to admit defeat and scrap a cp to something else. Which is what they are proposing in mortowind. Are they going to do that for other cp categories that will lead to opness? What are they going to do with defense cps? How about healing cps? scope creep is becoming a balancing nightmare. Look, I'm not saying get rid of cp altogether, use it in pve for maelstrom or trials.

They are already not endorsing cp with battle ground. Normally I would agree with you guys but I think cutting cps in pvp would be healthy for the game in the long run. Wrobel could focus his resources around balancing 1 game type. Wheeler could focus his efforts on fixing performance issues around 1 game type. Lambert could develop armor types around 1 type. Short answer it makes it easier for the devs to design and balance translating into less problems. The devs would then be free to focus on other areas of the game like spellcasting and new classes. I think the devs time is eaten up by self inflicted over ambitions.

The writing is on the wall folks. You think that 1 week no cp test was to test performance? Maybe it was but I would also submit to you it was to test the players reactions, evaluate community feedback, and look at technical data. Zos is distancing themselves from cps as evident in bg.

And some people prefer the CP imbalance over the nonCP imbalance - which both have issues just different ones. NonCP favors numbers even more than CP does - because by now the game has been adjusted and balanced entirely around CP. Skillcost has been increase two times by now after CP introduction and is way beyond anything we had prior to CP (just as an example - my CS used to cost me 135 magica which would be equivalent to 1350 today but due to adjustments made to skillcosts it costs 1675 in a comparable setup while having CP costreduction - skillcost in relation to regen is nowadays higher than it was in 1.5) . Resourcepools have been reduced when CP got introduced. Costreduction has seen a passive nerf when CP got introduced.

Also going for two different gamemodes with having to balance skills and mechanics around nonCP pvp and CPenables PVE will create way more backlash than simply putting effort into fixing the CP system itself. IMHO.

You serious? Have you played non cp? Cp is rediculously imbalanced compared to non cp. cp is broke. It's at the point where Zos is entertaining the idea of completely changing magician and warlord. That's a small piece of the problem. What happens when cp scope creep makes quick recovery, bastion, blessed, hardy, resistant, elemental defender, and all the dps skills op? Does Zos just throw their hands inthe air and keep nerfing every update and change cp categories on the fly?

Sorry man somethings gonna have to give eventually. Cps can't go up for ever. In the meantime wrobel and wheeler are wasting resources they could be using on balancing around 2 game types. No cp pvp and cp pve. That's better than 3.

Why not remove no cp pvp? They could also focus on 2 game types with this

They could but it doesn't solve their balance issue and they still have a major problem with scope creep which they can't seem to balance. Their solution is keep nerfing which equates to a 0 sum game. It's the illusion of vertical progression. Also it's not friendly to new players or non maxed cp players.

Should we all run naked to make it easier targets for new/non max cp players? What is next, ban of Maelstorm/Master weapons in PvP? Removal of monster sets? Only blue gear? You can't be serious with this comment. This is not a SJW convention but an MMORPG, if someone worked hard and long to get nice stuff it simply should not be equal with someone who just started the game.

LegacyDM

SnubbS wrote: »

Try this—don't allow Heavy Armor to be equipped in PVP for a week. Let's see how many cancerbuilds, and "Infinite sustain" builds we have then.

I like it but wrobel is dead set on this being a direct resource issue revolving arund skill costs, cps, or direct damage. Zos has never admitted nor will admit that ha was over buffed. The closest thing we got was a weak reduction to black rose...

Derra

LegacyDM wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Why are most ppl ok with fewer options? I dont get it.

You have the option to play nocp on azura. So go there but let the ppl stay on TF who enjoy CPs

And give the ppl the option to Queue for CP and/or no cp Bgs. Why do you want to force the CP players to do something they dont like.

Jeez its like the hardcore vegans who want to force their way on everyone

Rudyard wrote: »

Why do you want to take away player choice? The current system has both options; why reduce that?

Simple. They can't balance cp campaign. They never will. It's always going to be a contradiction. You can't raise both cps while simultaneously buffing and nerfing at the same time. Example, 3 updates of resource nerfs just to admit defeat and scrap a cp to something else. Which is what they are proposing in mortowind. Are they going to do that for other cp categories that will lead to opness? What are they going to do with defense cps? How about healing cps? scope creep is becoming a balancing nightmare. Look, I'm not saying get rid of cp altogether, use it in pve for maelstrom or trials.

They are already not endorsing cp with battle ground. Normally I would agree with you guys but I think cutting cps in pvp would be healthy for the game in the long run. Wrobel could focus his resources around balancing 1 game type. Wheeler could focus his efforts on fixing performance issues around 1 game type. Lambert could develop armor types around 1 type. Short answer it makes it easier for the devs to design and balance translating into less problems. The devs would then be free to focus on other areas of the game like spellcasting and new classes. I think the devs time is eaten up by self inflicted over ambitions.

The writing is on the wall folks. You think that 1 week no cp test was to test performance? Maybe it was but I would also submit to you it was to test the players reactions, evaluate community feedback, and look at technical data. Zos is distancing themselves from cps as evident in bg.

And some people prefer the CP imbalance over the nonCP imbalance - which both have issues just different ones. NonCP favors numbers even more than CP does - because by now the game has been adjusted and balanced entirely around CP. Skillcost has been increase two times by now after CP introduction and is way beyond anything we had prior to CP (just as an example - my CS used to cost me 135 magica which would be equivalent to 1350 today but due to adjustments made to skillcosts it costs 1675 in a comparable setup while having CP costreduction - skillcost in relation to regen is nowadays higher than it was in 1.5) . Resourcepools have been reduced when CP got introduced. Costreduction has seen a passive nerf when CP got introduced.

Also going for two different gamemodes with having to balance skills and mechanics around nonCP pvp and CPenables PVE will create way more backlash than simply putting effort into fixing the CP system itself. IMHO.

You serious? Have you played non cp? Cp is rediculously imbalanced compared to non cp. cp is broke. It's at the point where Zos is entertaining the idea of completely changing magician and warlord. That's a small piece of the problem. What happens when cp scope creep makes quick recovery, bastion, blessed, hardy, resistant, elemental defender, and all the dps skills op? Does Zos just throw their hands inthe air and keep nerfing every update and change cp categories on the fly?

Sorry man somethings gonna have to give eventually. Cps can't go up for ever. In the meantime wrobel and wheeler are wasting resources they could be using on balancing around 2 game types. No cp pvp and cp pve. That's better than 3.

I am 100% serious. I find nonCP imbalances far more irritating than CP ones.

I´d rather have nonCP pvp removed and effort put into creating a good/balanced CP system that allows for working on the game without alternate modes.

Removing CP from pvp is just a bandaid fix that creates other imbalances in the process. It´s like aoe caps, vicious death, proxy det, poisons, stacking cost increases and whatever else.

It´s chopping of a leg because you shattered your ankle.

LegacyDM

Enslaved wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Iyas wrote: »

Why are most ppl ok with fewer options? I dont get it.

You have the option to play nocp on azura. So go there but let the ppl stay on TF who enjoy CPs

And give the ppl the option to Queue for CP and/or no cp Bgs. Why do you want to force the CP players to do something they dont like.

Jeez its like the hardcore vegans who want to force their way on everyone

Rudyard wrote: »

Why do you want to take away player choice? The current system has both options; why reduce that?

Simple. They can't balance cp campaign. They never will. It's always going to be a contradiction. You can't raise both cps while simultaneously buffing and nerfing at the same time. Example, 3 updates of resource nerfs just to admit defeat and scrap a cp to something else. Which is what they are proposing in mortowind. Are they going to do that for other cp categories that will lead to opness? What are they going to do with defense cps? How about healing cps? scope creep is becoming a balancing nightmare. Look, I'm not saying get rid of cp altogether, use it in pve for maelstrom or trials.

They are already not endorsing cp with battle ground. Normally I would agree with you guys but I think cutting cps in pvp would be healthy for the game in the long run. Wrobel could focus his resources around balancing 1 game type. Wheeler could focus his efforts on fixing performance issues around 1 game type. Lambert could develop armor types around 1 type. Short answer it makes it easier for the devs to design and balance translating into less problems. The devs would then be free to focus on other areas of the game like spellcasting and new classes. I think the devs time is eaten up by self inflicted over ambitions.

The writing is on the wall folks. You think that 1 week no cp test was to test performance? Maybe it was but I would also submit to you it was to test the players reactions, evaluate community feedback, and look at technical data. Zos is distancing themselves from cps as evident in bg.

And some people prefer the CP imbalance over the nonCP imbalance - which both have issues just different ones. NonCP favors numbers even more than CP does - because by now the game has been adjusted and balanced entirely around CP. Skillcost has been increase two times by now after CP introduction and is way beyond anything we had prior to CP (just as an example - my CS used to cost me 135 magica which would be equivalent to 1350 today but due to adjustments made to skillcosts it costs 1675 in a comparable setup while having CP costreduction - skillcost in relation to regen is nowadays higher than it was in 1.5) . Resourcepools have been reduced when CP got introduced. Costreduction has seen a passive nerf when CP got introduced.

Also going for two different gamemodes with having to balance skills and mechanics around nonCP pvp and CPenables PVE will create way more backlash than simply putting effort into fixing the CP system itself. IMHO.

You serious? Have you played non cp? Cp is rediculously imbalanced compared to non cp. cp is broke. It's at the point where Zos is entertaining the idea of completely changing magician and warlord. That's a small piece of the problem. What happens when cp scope creep makes quick recovery, bastion, blessed, hardy, resistant, elemental defender, and all the dps skills op? Does Zos just throw their hands inthe air and keep nerfing every update and change cp categories on the fly?

Sorry man somethings gonna have to give eventually. Cps can't go up for ever. In the meantime wrobel and wheeler are wasting resources they could be using on balancing around 2 game types. No cp pvp and cp pve. That's better than 3.

Why not remove no cp pvp? They could also focus on 2 game types with this

They could but it doesn't solve their balance issue and they still have a major problem with scope creep which they can't seem to balance. Their solution is keep nerfing which equates to a 0 sum game. It's the illusion of vertical progression. Also it's not friendly to new players or non maxed cp players.

Should we all run naked to make it easier targets for new/non max cp players? What is next, ban of Maelstorm/Master weapons in PvP? Removal of monster sets? Only blue gear? You can't be serious with this comment. This is not a SJW convention but an MMORPG, if someone worked hard and long to get nice stuff it simply should not be equal with someone who just started the game.

Nope not saying that. But you shouldn't need to rely on a cp crutch to kill your opponent. You think it's fair to trounce your opponent because you have 700 cps and they have 100? Where is the skill in that? You have other ways to work hard. Gold out that gear, grind the set you need to theory craft a build better that your opponent, play better. Pvp should be about skill and build designs not how many cps you have. Cps are currently broke. But I guess ifs it's broke for everyone it makes it fair right?