Look, zos, just remove CPs from PvP

Sarru

WhiteMage wrote: »

1) Some people think 2 bars for each faction is empty. I think it is the perfect population size while a soloer can meaningfully affect the going-ons in cyrodiil. To my dismay, Azuras has had quite a bit more people than that recently. So what is a good population to you? Because, IMO, full poplocked is just a mess of zerging, and far too many people.

2) I use light armor full-time in azuras--that's less than 10k physical resistance-- and the only time I have ever been 1-shot was by an onslaught ganker. As for proc set gankers, a double frag kills me more reliably than them. I don't believe it is balanced in this state, but the worst they can really do is ruin a 1vX, IF there's more to their toolkit than the ambush incap, which actually is very few NBs. (Pro tip: When not actively trying to kill something, always revert to your defending backbar so you're never caught with your pants down. This habit takes less than a week to pick up.)

3) No argument there. Though, take the tanks and heals down a peg too.

Arguments:
https://youtu.be/Cpt9LBsS7lU
https://youtu.be/vZ60ET5rl3c
https://youtu.be/NY0wckExj30
https://youtu.be/YGnSoras4Oo
https://youtu.be/BMgunD6m8pM
https://youtu.be/Ox7ZSf_JYhE

etc...
P.S. So you haven't met a normal ganker.

WhiteMage

I run into whatever gankers decide to try to gank me in cyrodiil, Azura's Star, NA PC. Most can take about 80+% of my 23k health instantly, but barring double-procs or my finger being off my mouse, no kill. And if it was a true, solo gank attempt, that means they're dead. What you see in these videos are very likely done in CP land, where you can throw an extra 25% damage in. In the few times I visited TF with guildies, I actually would get 1-shot by the same builds that I can just scrape by against in Azuras, even from nameless players.

I actually get somewhat confused when people say proc sets are worse in no CP, because that is not my experience. When someone can increase their damage by 25% you'd need at least 20% into the hardy/ED to counter it, but there are so many red passives that need to be considered as well. That 25% increase often spells out RIP and the crazy thing is it applies to procs.

Idrk what a normal ganker is supposed to be, but I think it's unreasonable to assume I haven't run into one in a year of PvP. Oh, and videos are not arguments. At best they are evidence but you have to provide the claim and piece together the relevant information to make an argument. Don't assume we will come to the same conclusions by watching the same video. Also, in general it's lazy and obnoxious to ask someone to watch a video to convince them of your veiwpoint (just remembering someone trying to sway me politically by asking me to watch a series of hour-long YouTube videos. Yeah, ain't nobody got time for that. Don't visit questionable "news" sites to debate them. You will never win in their echo chamber.)

RinaldoGandolphi

While I won't disagree that The Champion System is a big issue in PVP, and it would do the game a lot of good if they removed it from PVP all together, its not only problem, and removing it by itself will do little more then shift the issues elsewhere.

Itemization is a BIG problem in this game, even moreso then CP since One Tamriel. The fact they added all these sets with Jewerly and every armor piece just allows people to build these just stupidly broken set ups. It something that needs to be addressed, but i doubt its really even touched in the next year.

The biggest issues with No-CP PVP are:

1. Stamina Builds are grossly OP in group sizes less then 8. - Being able to dodge roll, break free, and block about 700% more then your magic counterpart is a HUGE advantage, and stacking more stamina allows you to do this even more, while also gaining more damage and more healing. combine this with a flipping armor trait that reduces dodge cost and sprint like Well-Fitted(Where;s my reduced Purge cost and increase shield duration/size armor trait at? Flipping Bias ZOS)

Its bad enough for a magic build(with a very limited stamina pool) to be able to beat an equaly skilled stamina opponent 1v1 on CP, but with no cp? forget about it. In small scale solo pvp, even with Amberplasm or Engine Guardian they are horribly disadvantaged against stamina builds in a game where CC break and burst decides fights, being able to do it at will perpetually because your entire build strategy gives you more resources to break free and dodge*(stam build) puts magic builds at a ridiclious disadvantage. The fact Stamina builds get root and snare immunity with shuffle makes them nearly impossible to lock down with roots unlike Magic Builds that are flat out screwed if root spammed when outnumbered as Purge costs significantly more to cast then the roots that are holding you down and grant no immunity, leaving you basically helpless against the odds.

2. Poisons and poison stacking is broken - Enough said, Poisons are broken. The immobilize poison will even root you in Mist Form or when Shuffling, the cost increase poisons are just straight up broken in No-CP, and everyone playing there now is using them, it just favors numbers and light attack archer spam.

3. Lack of meaningful counterplay - All they have done every update is remove skillful counterplay. Removed double reflect, removed reflecting Ice Comet, removed Purging/Cloaking Soul Assault, Can no longer dodge or even block Dragon Leap anymore(Get knocked back with Dragon Leap despite blocking it) these are STUPID decisions that kill skillful gameplay. They might as Well make Radiant Destruction unblockable next update, i should probably be quiet, giving them ideas, thats exactly what they will do.

There are so many mechanical and fundamental issues with the game. Just removing CP without fixing other things is just not going to cut it.

the 1st thing they need to do is remove CC break, and Dodge roll from stamina and create a new resource pool thats used specifically for that, its value is based off your max health, and actually level the playing field in a game centered on CC, CC break, dodge, and burst....if you want to do those things more, you should have to put points into health. Either dodge roll cost reduction needs to be removed from Medium Armor, or the Well Fitted trait changed, both of them together is stupid broken along with tumbling.

Making CC break and dodge work off a new resource pool thats value(size of the pool, and how much you can do these things) growing larger the more max health you have isn't rocket science and wouldn't take them long to implement.

Fact is ESO PVP is basically dead from a commercial standpoint. You have roughly 6400 people in total that will play PC-NA Trueflame this cycle(rough estimation judging by leaderboards this cycle), down from about 20k or so in mid-2015. All you see is the same names, and the same groups of people in PVP with 1 large zerg fight at some keep or gate, and maybe one smaller fight elsewhere, and the rest of the map is dead.

PVP has just gone downhill since the Imperial City update. they let these issues just get out of hand and simply ignored them....a game whose entire combat system is focused on CC and burst, and they give stamina builds cheaper skills on top of leaving those game play mechanics stamina based so they can just stack stamina and get everything...more damage, more healing, leatger resource pools, and the ability to dodge and break free more.....not to mention they use magic for utility skills, a resource dump, or converting it to more stam....a magic build dies it either resouce pool is out, a magic build can't just convert their stam to magicka or they are easy prey for a Cc and dead....its so flipping unbalanced and brought this up numerous times on the 1.6 PTS and was told "oh it won't be an issue" right now however i was proven correct because it clearly is.

the reason you have all these magicka builds being tanks is because what other choice do they have? they can't CC break endlessly like stam, they can't dodge roll endlessly like stam, what other choice do they have...7 out of 10 magic builds in PVP are tanky builds for this reason, and these broken mechanics have killed the light armor Mageblade all together.

I know this is a long post, but they refuse to fix fundamental broken combat issues, the game will continue to be plagued by major balance issues. Nothing is perfect, small balance issues you can deal with, work around, but a lot of the stuff in ESO is just ridiclious....

technohic

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

While I won't disagree that The Champion System is a big issue in PVP, and it would do the game a lot of good if they removed it from PVP all together, its not only problem, and removing it by itself will do little more then shift the issues elsewhere.

Itemization is a BIG problem in this game, even moreso then CP since One Tamriel. The fact they added all these sets with Jewerly and every armor piece just allows people to build these just stupidly broken set ups. It something that needs to be addressed, but i doubt its really even touched in the next year.

The biggest issues with No-CP PVP are:

1. Stamina Builds are grossly OP in group sizes less then 8. - Being able to dodge roll, break free, and block about 700% more then your magic counterpart is a HUGE advantage, and stacking more stamina allows you to do this even more, while also gaining more damage and more healing. combine this with a flipping armor trait that reduces dodge cost and sprint like Well-Fitted(Where;s my reduced Purge cost and increase shield duration/size armor trait at? Flipping Bias ZOS)

Its bad enough for a magic build(with a very limited stamina pool) to be able to beat an equaly skilled stamina opponent 1v1 on CP, but with no cp? forget about it. In small scale solo pvp, even with Amberplasm or Engine Guardian they are horribly disadvantaged against stamina builds in a game where CC break and burst decides fights, being able to do it at will perpetually because your entire build strategy gives you more resources to break free and dodge*(stam build) puts magic builds at a ridiclious disadvantage. The fact Stamina builds get root and snare immunity with shuffle makes them nearly impossible to lock down with roots unlike Magic Builds that are flat out screwed if root spammed when outnumbered as Purge costs significantly more to cast then the roots that are holding you down and grant no immunity, leaving you basically helpless against the odds.

2. Poisons and poison stacking is broken - Enough said, Poisons are broken. The immobilize poison will even root you in Mist Form or when Shuffling, the cost increase poisons are just straight up broken in No-CP, and everyone playing there now is using them, it just favors numbers and light attack archer spam.

3. Lack of meaningful counterplay - All they have done every update is remove skillful counterplay. Removed double reflect, removed reflecting Ice Comet, removed Purging/Cloaking Soul Assault, Can no longer dodge or even block Dragon Leap anymore(Get knocked back with Dragon Leap despite blocking it) these are STUPID decisions that kill skillful gameplay. They might as Well make Radiant Destruction unblockable next update, i should probably be quiet, giving them ideas, thats exactly what they will do.

There are so many mechanical and fundamental issues with the game. Just removing CP without fixing other things is just not going to cut it.

the 1st thing they need to do is remove CC break, and Dodge roll from stamina and create a new resource pool thats used specifically for that, its value is based off your max health, and actually level the playing field in a game centered on CC, CC break, dodge, and burst....if you want to do those things more, you should have to put points into health. Either dodge roll cost reduction needs to be removed from Medium Armor, or the Well Fitted trait changed, both of them together is stupid broken along with tumbling.

Making CC break and dodge work off a new resource pool thats value(size of the pool, and how much you can do these things) growing larger the more max health you have isn't rocket science and wouldn't take them long to implement.

Fact is ESO PVP is basically dead from a commercial standpoint. You have roughly 6400 people in total that will play PC-NA Trueflame this cycle(rough estimation judging by leaderboards this cycle), down from about 20k or so in mid-2015. All you see is the same names, and the same groups of people in PVP with 1 large zerg fight at some keep or gate, and maybe one smaller fight elsewhere, and the rest of the map is dead.

PVP has just gone downhill since the Imperial City update. they let these issues just get out of hand and simply ignored them....a game whose entire combat system is focused on CC and burst, and they give stamina builds cheaper skills on top of leaving those game play mechanics stamina based so they can just stack stamina and get everything...more damage, more healing, leatger resource pools, and the ability to dodge and break free more.....not to mention they use magic for utility skills, a resource dump, or converting it to more stam....a magic build dies it either resouce pool is out, a magic build can't just convert their stam to magicka or they are easy prey for a Cc and dead....its so flipping unbalanced and brought this up numerous times on the 1.6 PTS and was told "oh it won't be an issue" right now however i was proven correct because it clearly is.

the reason you have all these magicka builds being tanks is because what other choice do they have? they can't CC break endlessly like stam, they can't dodge roll endlessly like stam, what other choice do they have...7 out of 10 magic builds in PVP are tanky builds for this reason, and these broken mechanics have killed the light armor Mageblade all together.

I know this is a long post, but they refuse to fix fundamental broken combat issues, the game will continue to be plagued by major balance issues. Nothing is perfect, small balance issues you can deal with, work around, but a lot of the stuff in ESO is just ridiclious....

Stopped reading at basically nerf medium armor became apparent. Separate resource pool for break free and dodge roll could be debatable but specifically untying dodge roll from medium completely demolished the defense of the gear.

Edit: finished reading: Your solution to magicka builds having to go full heavy basically boils down to "make stam builds have to also ". In case you haven't noticed; most already have. It's only going to get worse with more undodgeable attacks in Morrowind.

RinaldoGandolphi

technohic wrote: »

Stopped reading at basically nerf medium armor became apparent. Separate resource pool for break free and dodge roll could be debatable but specifically untying dodge roll from medium completely demolished the defense of the gear.

Edit: finished reading: Your solution to magicka builds having to go full heavy basically boils down to "make stam builds have to also ". In case you haven't noticed; most already have. It's only going to get worse with more undodgeable attacks in Morrowind.

Nerf Meduim Armor? Is that what you got out of this?

Lets Compare Light and Medium Armor shall we?

Light Armor

Reduce Magic Cost 3% per piece of Light Armor
Increase Magicka Recovery by 4% per piece of Light Armor
Increase Spell Resist by like 1.6k while wearing Light Armor
2191 Spell crit for wearing 5 Light Armor
4884 Spell Penentration fopr wearing 5 Light Armor

Medium Armor

Increase Critical rating for each piece of Medium Armor
Increase Stamina recovery by 4% for each piece of Medium Armor
Reduce Stamina Cost of Abilities by 3%
Reduce cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Med armor
Reduce size of detection area by 5% per piece of Med Armor
Increase Weapon damage by 12% wearing 5 Med Armor
Increase Sprint Movement Speed by 3% per piece of Med Armor
Reduce dodge roll cost by 4% per piece of Medium Armor

Now add Well Fitted Armor and its 6% Reduced Cost of Sprint and dodge roll from well fitted armor...combine that with Tumbling CP...its broken.

CC Break, and dodge needs to be on its own seperate resource pool independent of magic or stamina, and stamina builds need a purge and a damage shield...im all about things being fair.

Medium Armor is ridiculously better then Light Armor, its not even a contest.

Sure Magic builds are better in group play(8 or more people), but they flat out suck in 2-4 man pvp where stamina, dodge roll, and break free is EVERYTHING...where you cna do it maybe twice, while your stamina opponent can do it 12-15 times or more...its a joke.

im honestly tired of it which is why i chose not to renew my sub and im letting it run out in 14 days.

Battlegrounds will likely be dominated by tanky Templars and DK, and Stam Sorcs.

Right now in PVP the Small scale class strength in order is:

Stam Sorc/Stam DK
Stam Templar
Stam Nightblade
Mag Templar/Mag Sorc
Mag DK
Mag NB

Stam Sorc and Stam DK are tied for top dog, Mag Sorc and Mag Templar are tied for 5th place for groups of less then 8....Now once you put those magic builds in groups larger then 8 people and trains of Destro Ultimates and Negates become a thing its a whole different story. Thats however not my playstyle. I have interest in that kinda pvp group play.

1.x was actually fun because caps prevented the huge disparity in stamina, and caps meant magic builds couldn't get damage shields that could tank an absurd amount of damage.

the game is fundamentally flawed for small scale combat in the stam vs magicka split we have now, and that fact is going to become woefully apparent for a lot of people, to some it will be like being hit in the head with a cinder block. The nature of Cyrodiil masks many of the real issues with the PVP combat and balance in this game that goes beyond 1v1.

As i have said nothing will ever be perfect, its unreasonable to even want that. However there are some huge disparities in the combat system that simply need addressed. Being able to dodge roll or break free 10 times(stamina build) vs of two times(a mag build) while also increasing your damage, resource pools, and healing on top of your CC break and block vs magic only increasing healing and damage is simply broken unbalanced garbage.

if i was new player coming into ESO, i'd most certainly roll a stam class, a Stam Sorc to be exact. Stam Sorc/Stam DK is signjifcantly better then most magic class by a large margin, and both of them can just dump magicka for more survival, better healing or more stam.

Know what happens when a magic build trys to use stamina as a dump? they die....because thats real fair game balance right there.

Let that Stam DK and Stam Sorc spam magicka till the cows come home to get back stam and never have any downsides nor is their life ever threatened for being out of magicka...A magic builds runs out of either resources and they are dead, and magic builds can't covert their magic to stam without great risk of being killed...thats balanced in ESO, and its terrible.

its no wonder so many people have left.....

technohic

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Stopped reading at basically nerf medium armor became apparent. Separate resource pool for break free and dodge roll could be debatable but specifically untying dodge roll from medium completely demolished the defense of the gear.

Edit: finished reading: Your solution to magicka builds having to go full heavy basically boils down to "make stam builds have to also ". In case you haven't noticed; most already have. It's only going to get worse with more undodgeable attacks in Morrowind.

Nerf Meduim Armor? Is that what you got out of this?

Lets Compare Light and Medium Armor shall we?

Light Armor

Reduce Magic Cost 3% per piece of Light Armor
Increase Magicka Recovery by 4% per piece of Light Armor
Increase Spell Resist by like 1.6k while wearing Light Armor
2191 Spell crit for wearing 5 Light Armor
4884 Spell Penentration fopr wearing 5 Light Armor

Medium Armor

Increase Critical rating for each piece of Medium Armor
Increase Stamina recovery by 4% for each piece of Medium Armor
Reduce Stamina Cost of Abilities by 3%
Reduce cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Med armor
Reduce size of detection area by 5% per piece of Med Armor
Increase Weapon damage by 12% wearing 5 Med Armor
Increase Sprint Movement Speed by 3% per piece of Med Armor
Reduce dodge roll cost by 4% per piece of Medium Armor

Now add Well Fitted Armor and its 6% Reduced Cost of Sprint and dodge roll from well fitted armor...combine that with Tumbling CP...its broken.

CC Break, and dodge needs to be on its own seperate resource pool independent of magic or stamina, and stamina builds need a purge and a damage shield...im all about things being fair.

Medium Armor is ridiculously better then Light Armor, its not even a contest.

Sure Magic builds are better in group play(8 or more people), but they flat out suck in 2-4 man pvp where stamina, dodge roll, and break free is EVERYTHING...where you cna do it maybe twice, while your stamina opponent can do it 12-15 times or more...its a joke.

im honestly tired of it which is why i chose not to renew my sub and im letting it run out in 14 days.

Battlegrounds will likely be dominated by tanky Templars and DK, and Stam Sorcs.

Right now in PVP the Small scale class strength in order is:

Stam Sorc/Stam DK
Stam Templar
Stam Nightblade
Mag Templar/Mag Sorc
Mag DK
Mag NB

Stam Sorc and Stam DK are tied for top dog, Mag Sorc and Mag Templar are tied for 5th place for groups of less then 8....Now once you put those magic builds in groups larger then 8 people and trains of Destro Ultimates and Negates become a thing its a whole different story. Thats however not my playstyle. I have interest in that kinda pvp group play.

1.x was actually fun because caps prevented the huge disparity in stamina, and caps meant magic builds couldn't get damage shields that could tank an absurd amount of damage.

the game is fundamentally flawed for small scale combat in the stam vs magicka split we have now, and that fact is going to become woefully apparent for a lot of people, to some it will be like being hit in the head with a cinder block. The nature of Cyrodiil masks many of the real issues with the PVP combat and balance in this game that goes beyond 1v1.

As i have said nothing will ever be perfect, its unreasonable to even want that. However there are some huge disparities in the combat system that simply need addressed. Being able to dodge roll or break free 10 times(stamina build) vs of two times(a mag build) while also increasing your damage, resource pools, and healing on top of your CC break and block vs magic only increasing healing and damage is simply broken unbalanced garbage.

if i was new player coming into ESO, i'd most certainly roll a stam class, a Stam Sorc to be exact. Stam Sorc/Stam DK is signjifcantly better then most magic class by a large margin, and both of them can just dump magicka for more survival, better healing or more stam.

Know what happens when a magic build trys to use stamina as a dump? they die....because thats real fair game balance right there.

Let that Stam DK and Stam Sorc spam magicka till the cows come home to get back stam and never have any downsides nor is their life ever threatened for being out of magicka...A magic builds runs out of either resources and they are dead, and magic builds can't covert their magic to stam without great risk of being killed...thats balanced in ESO, and its terrible.

its no wonder so many people have left.....

Again you go on about how much better medium armor is to light, then name classes that are going to be using heavy armor as what will be the dominant classes. And you mention paired with CP after talking about medium in a "remove CP" thread as if it were an issue in non-CP.

I'm not entirely sure what you are upset about. I'm not entirely sure you know what you're upset about.

RinaldoGandolphi

technohic wrote: »

Again you go on about how much better medium armor is to light, then name classes that are going to be using heavy armor as what will be the dominant classes. And you mention paired with CP after talking about medium in a "remove CP" thread as if it were an issue in non-CP.

I'm not entirely sure what you are upset about. I'm not entirely sure you know what you're upset about.

I know exactly what im dissatisfied with.

thousands of players have quit this game because of the issues I have laid out above...my point being its far more then CP.

in a game focused around CC and Burst Stamina is EVERYTHING and regardless of CP or no CP, those who can CC break and dodge the most have significant advantages over those who can't period. When the ability to CC break and dodge is also increasing your damage, your resource pools, and your healing, its unbalanced...its literately the biggest issue with ESO, and removing CP isn't going to change that.

As i said before, in 1.x it was unbalanced too, BUT with the way Softcaps/hardcaps and such worked, it wasn't a deal breaker like it is now.

simply put, I am dissatisfied with how disadvantaged magicka builds are in 1-3 man pvp vs stamina builds, and its even worse with No-CP....if you can't dodge or break in PVP in this game your dead, stamina builds get more of that simply by stacking stamina, and magicka just becomes another stamina resource pool for them, while magicka stays disadvantaged in that department.

The ability to CC break and dodge should be based on a separate pool independent of Stam or Mag. Stamina Builds should also get access to a Purge and a Damage shield.

Removing CP isn't going to fix these issues, its a start in the right direction for the game, but its a small step.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

deaneboltonrwb17_ESO wrote: »

Eleusian wrote: »

Just remove CP , top it off with PVP having its own gear specifically for PVP. Too many irons in the fire for overall balance , trial bosses don't make QQ threads.

THIS

Played to many games with specific gear for PvP and it severely imbalanced PvP. Obviously it's already somewhat imbalanced. They would need to be real careful making more gear specific for PvP. If they were smart make PvP gear sets limited and make them fit into light, medium, heavy, and hybrid sets. Make each armor type like it's typical arch type is supposed to be. Not like now, example: you can wear heavy armor and do as much damage as a DPS but be tanky. That goes against the arch type.

Arthg

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Again you go on about how much better medium armor is to light, then name classes that are going to be using heavy armor as what will be the dominant classes. And you mention paired with CP after talking about medium in a "remove CP" thread as if it were an issue in non-CP.

I'm not entirely sure what you are upset about. I'm not entirely sure you know what you're upset about.

I know exactly what im dissatisfied with.

thousands of players have quit this game because of the issues I have laid out above...my point being its far more then CP.

in a game focused around CC and Burst Stamina is EVERYTHING and regardless of CP or no CP, those who can CC break and dodge the most have significant advantages over those who can't period. When the ability to CC break and dodge is also increasing your damage, your resource pools, and your healing, its unbalanced...its literately the biggest issue with ESO, and removing CP isn't going to change that.

As i said before, in 1.x it was unbalanced too, BUT with the way Softcaps/hardcaps and such worked, it wasn't a deal breaker like it is now.

simply put, I am dissatisfied with how disadvantaged magicka builds are in 1-3 man pvp vs stamina builds, and its even worse with No-CP....if you can't dodge or break in PVP in this game your dead, stamina builds get more of that simply by stacking stamina, and magicka just becomes another stamina resource pool for them, while magicka stays disadvantaged in that department.

The ability to CC break and dodge should be based on a separate pool independent of Stam or Mag. Stamina Builds should also get access to a Purge and a Damage shield.

Removing CP isn't going to fix these issues, its a start in the right direction for the game, but its a small step.

I can't really figure out if you have a point.
Clearly you're going out on a limb when you say "thousands of players have quit this game because of the issues [you] have laid out above".
I'd be impressed if you could back up that statement with hard data.

And however sensible your other arguments might seem while reading your posts, they still go counter to my experience on EU PC Azu.
If you were right, there'd be a lot more stam builds roaming solo everywhere.
I do stumble upon a lot of stam sorcs, stam NBs, a few stamplars, but I haven't seen a stam DK in a while.
And mag DKs and sorcs, not to mention magplars, are really really frequent.

All of the above in my humble experience and opinion.
I can't help thinking that a magicka build with high stam regen (hello Blood Spawn on a DK) solves a lot of the issues you mention.

Durham

LegacyDM wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

ZOS_JohanaB wrote: »

We've moved this thread to PvP Combat & Skills

Why?

I feel like the two main places to discuss important topics on these forums are the general forum and the Alliance War forum (for specific PvP topics).

The other forums get much less traction and visibility. So moving threads from the main forums to these niche forums only serves to reduce traffic to the thread and decreases the quality of the thread by prevention potential comments by other interested parties that will never see it. This is one of the most important topics for PvP currently and should be discussed either in general or in PvP forums.

Nothing to really discuss.... there is a non CP campaign ... they should delete this to be honest ...

You apparently either didn't read my op or missed my point. Spending resources to try and balance around 3 game types is idiotic. Cp campaign, no cp. cp with pve. It's clear that zos doesn't know how to balance around cps. It's a mess and every update results in more and more nerfs. I don't know about you but getting excited and making a build just to have it nerfed every 6 months is not fun. Wrobel has nerfed resource and or damage 3 times in a row. 1. Changing algorithm. 2. Decreasing damage. 3. Increasing skill costs. He can't fix it. So now the proposed solution on the table is to gut magician and warlord completely and nearly cut regen cp in half. Mark my words. Cps are not sustainable in pvp. Hence why to you think they are remivibg them from battlegrounds? Zos knows they cant balance it so it's out for bg.

Zos should cut their loses and focus all efforts and resources around balancing no cp pvp. Not continue to waste time on a self inflicted over ambitious endless tug of war against cp verse resource nonsense. Scoop creep is real and can't be beat under this smoke and mirrors of vertical progression.

This post isn't about me so stop telling me to go to non cp campaign and be quiet. This post isn't about having a choice. It's about zos making smart decisions and allocating resources appropriately. It's clear they can't balance so rip the bandaid off now.

You right it not about having a choice .. it's about your way of playing and your perception of their ability to balance PVP... There has been no official statement saying non CP is more balanced or that CP campaigns cannot be balanced .... This is your perception and many in this game will disagree with you........

WhiteMage

Saying thousands have quit in a game with millions of players, 3 years after launch is not a stretch. I think it's pretty reasonable, wide enough in scope to be applicable.

I'd be careful about interpreting that more than very broadly, of course.

Durham

WhiteMage wrote: »

Saying thousands have quit in a game with millions of players, 3 years after launch is not a stretch. I think it's pretty reasonable, wide enough in scope to be applicable.

Laaaaaaaaaaaaag. #1 reason people left pvp not balance... after the lighting patch pvp was unplayable

Hurika

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Medium Armor is ridiculously better then Light Armor, its not even a contest.

That's like saying that running around in 2 ply toilet paper as armor in combat is twice as good as single ply. Yeah it's true to say but not really any value.

Minno

Arthg wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Again you go on about how much better medium armor is to light, then name classes that are going to be using heavy armor as what will be the dominant classes. And you mention paired with CP after talking about medium in a "remove CP" thread as if it were an issue in non-CP.

I'm not entirely sure what you are upset about. I'm not entirely sure you know what you're upset about.

I know exactly what im dissatisfied with.

thousands of players have quit this game because of the issues I have laid out above...my point being its far more then CP.

in a game focused around CC and Burst Stamina is EVERYTHING and regardless of CP or no CP, those who can CC break and dodge the most have significant advantages over those who can't period. When the ability to CC break and dodge is also increasing your damage, your resource pools, and your healing, its unbalanced...its literately the biggest issue with ESO, and removing CP isn't going to change that.

As i said before, in 1.x it was unbalanced too, BUT with the way Softcaps/hardcaps and such worked, it wasn't a deal breaker like it is now.

simply put, I am dissatisfied with how disadvantaged magicka builds are in 1-3 man pvp vs stamina builds, and its even worse with No-CP....if you can't dodge or break in PVP in this game your dead, stamina builds get more of that simply by stacking stamina, and magicka just becomes another stamina resource pool for them, while magicka stays disadvantaged in that department.

The ability to CC break and dodge should be based on a separate pool independent of Stam or Mag. Stamina Builds should also get access to a Purge and a Damage shield.

Removing CP isn't going to fix these issues, its a start in the right direction for the game, but its a small step.

I can't really figure out if you have a point.
Clearly you're going out on a limb when you say "thousands of players have quit this game because of the issues [you] have laid out above".
I'd be impressed if you could back up that statement with hard data.

And however sensible your other arguments might seem while reading your posts, they still go counter to my experience on EU PC Azu.
If you were right, there'd be a lot more stam builds roaming solo everywhere.
I do stumble upon a lot of stam sorcs, stam NBs, a few stamplars, but I haven't seen a stam DK in a while.
And mag DKs and sorcs, not to mention magplars, are really really frequent.

All of the above in my humble experience and opinion.
I can't help thinking that a magicka build with high stam regen (hello Blood Spawn on a DK) solves a lot of the issues you mention.

It does and it doesn't. To get the same level of recovery, cost reduction and ability to dodge means you have to sacrifice mag dmg/sustain.

I went this route after being fed up with the inability to move/dodge at will:

- At least one enchant was dedicated to stamina recov, Stam recovery mundas, and one medium armor minimum with CP towards Stam resource Regen/dodge roll reduction. Breton+LA passive to compensate for the magicka Regen losses. I can now dodge at will (5 -6 total in a row with left over to break free)later but buffed dmg is 2k if I tag a resource with 38k mag while using inner light, 14-16k stam and I have to compete with 26k min spell resistance on targets. I'm stuck with channels for my main dmg/execute (Templar). And need to use more precious stamina to gain snare immunity (forward momentum). Vampire/mist form is outdated using my build since I can outrun mist form, without the extra fire/fighters guild dmg received. Being locked in mist form without healing when a stam build can use FW for both immunity+a heal feels broken.

A similar stamina build can do the more dodge rolling, if not the same amount, but access to 4k dmg buffed and 35-40k min stam, and only had to compete with 16-19k physical resistance values on a similar target. They can roll+dodge, have bow to Regen stamina at range, and don't need to rely on magicka to break free. Medium armor also offers more resistance values than light armor, and increased their speed so they don't need to rely on vampire for mobility. Weapon lines give sources of major expedition, magicka must use pots.

A HA Stam build is different beast. They can block more without giving up dmg, but a magicka build has to be mindful of their stamina.

Conclusion:

- stamina needs the same resource limitation for defense as magicka. Dodge/break free/block must be on a separate pool. Shield should join this pool as well, everything scaling off health. Health becomes defacto tank stat, clear selection of role since tanking aspects forced to a separate pool.
- let magicka/Stam heal, but main defenses locked behind health to force builds to make stat decisions.

Vivecc

played Wabbajack, Thornblade, Azura. After Azura got non- cp campaign i instantly switched to Trueflame.
I don´t do any serious pve (anymore) but i like to play with the benefits cp give me. So for the point of disabling all cp in all pvp campaigns ? i´ll give u a NO!

BoxFoxx

What kind of reasoning is at the helm of ZoS with nerf, after nerf, after nerf... always add, never take away. Why make a video game that progressively strips you of your achievements. That's what it's akin to. Stripping players who have spent hours of gameplay, not to mention hours of off-game time researching the best method to create a desirable build, then have your work and planning sabotaged by another nerf.

That said if you want to fix PvP don't mess with character builds, buffs and bonuses. Revamp PvP itself and stay away from the urge to nerf anything associated with skills, abilities, passives and champion points. Players only want more, not less when it comes to these things.

What you can do is limit access to Scourge for CP600 players only and create an exclusive and desirable rewards system for Azura's Star to make it more appealing to players. Scourge, ironically, is becoming a scourge to ESO. It is the problem. The majority of complaints are associated with it. This should be clear and obvious.

Make the game fun again. Let players be rewarded for playing. Don't let Scourge become the kill joy and deterioration of our beloved ESO.

BoxFoxx

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Azura's Star is the best PvP campaign.

I wish I could switch over my main campaign to AZ, but it costs 150,000 gold to do so.... now tell what kind of bs is that. I can enter in as a guest, but then I get no rewards... utter bs.

technohic

BoxFoxx wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

Azura's Star is the best PvP campaign.

I wish I could switch over my main campaign to AZ, but it costs 150,000 gold to do so.... now tell what kind of bs is that. I can enter in as a guest, but then I get no rewards... utter bs.

Whaaaaat....?

Smmokkee

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

While I won't disagree that The Champion System is a big issue in PVP, and it would do the game a lot of good if they removed it from PVP all together, its not only problem, and removing it by itself will do little more then shift the issues elsewhere.

Itemization is a BIG problem in this game, even moreso then CP since One Tamriel. The fact they added all these sets with Jewerly and every armor piece just allows people to build these just stupidly broken set ups. It something that needs to be addressed, but i doubt its really even touched in the next year.

The biggest issues with No-CP PVP are:

1. Stamina Builds are grossly OP in group sizes less then 8. - Being able to dodge roll, break free, and block about 700% more then your magic counterpart is a HUGE advantage, and stacking more stamina allows you to do this even more, while also gaining more damage and more healing. combine this with a flipping armor trait that reduces dodge cost and sprint like Well-Fitted(Where;s my reduced Purge cost and increase shield duration/size armor trait at? Flipping Bias ZOS)

Its bad enough for a magic build(with a very limited stamina pool) to be able to beat an equaly skilled stamina opponent 1v1 on CP, but with no cp? forget about it. In small scale solo pvp, even with Amberplasm or Engine Guardian they are horribly disadvantaged against stamina builds in a game where CC break and burst decides fights, being able to do it at will perpetually because your entire build strategy gives you more resources to break free and dodge*(stam build) puts magic builds at a ridiclious disadvantage. The fact Stamina builds get root and snare immunity with shuffle makes them nearly impossible to lock down with roots unlike Magic Builds that are flat out screwed if root spammed when outnumbered as Purge costs significantly more to cast then the roots that are holding you down and grant no immunity, leaving you basically helpless against the odds.

2. Poisons and poison stacking is broken - Enough said, Poisons are broken. The immobilize poison will even root you in Mist Form or when Shuffling, the cost increase poisons are just straight up broken in No-CP, and everyone playing there now is using them, it just favors numbers and light attack archer spam.

3. Lack of meaningful counterplay - All they have done every update is remove skillful counterplay. Removed double reflect, removed reflecting Ice Comet, removed Purging/Cloaking Soul Assault, Can no longer dodge or even block Dragon Leap anymore(Get knocked back with Dragon Leap despite blocking it) these are STUPID decisions that kill skillful gameplay. They might as Well make Radiant Destruction unblockable next update, i should probably be quiet, giving them ideas, thats exactly what they will do.

There are so many mechanical and fundamental issues with the game. Just removing CP without fixing other things is just not going to cut it.

the 1st thing they need to do is remove CC break, and Dodge roll from stamina and create a new resource pool thats used specifically for that, its value is based off your max health, and actually level the playing field in a game centered on CC, CC break, dodge, and burst....if you want to do those things more, you should have to put points into health. Either dodge roll cost reduction needs to be removed from Medium Armor, or the Well Fitted trait changed, both of them together is stupid broken along with tumbling.

Making CC break and dodge work off a new resource pool thats value(size of the pool, and how much you can do these things) growing larger the more max health you have isn't rocket science and wouldn't take them long to implement.

Fact is ESO PVP is basically dead from a commercial standpoint. You have roughly 6400 people in total that will play PC-NA Trueflame this cycle(rough estimation judging by leaderboards this cycle), down from about 20k or so in mid-2015. All you see is the same names, and the same groups of people in PVP with 1 large zerg fight at some keep or gate, and maybe one smaller fight elsewhere, and the rest of the map is dead.

PVP has just gone downhill since the Imperial City update. they let these issues just get out of hand and simply ignored them....a game whose entire combat system is focused on CC and burst, and they give stamina builds cheaper skills on top of leaving those game play mechanics stamina based so they can just stack stamina and get everything...more damage, more healing, leatger resource pools, and the ability to dodge and break free more.....not to mention they use magic for utility skills, a resource dump, or converting it to more stam....a magic build dies it either resouce pool is out, a magic build can't just convert their stam to magicka or they are easy prey for a Cc and dead....its so flipping unbalanced and brought this up numerous times on the 1.6 PTS and was told "oh it won't be an issue" right now however i was proven correct because it clearly is.

the reason you have all these magicka builds being tanks is because what other choice do they have? they can't CC break endlessly like stam, they can't dodge roll endlessly like stam, what other choice do they have...7 out of 10 magic builds in PVP are tanky builds for this reason, and these broken mechanics have killed the light armor Mageblade all together.

I know this is a long post, but they refuse to fix fundamental broken combat issues, the game will continue to be plagued by major balance issues. Nothing is perfect, small balance issues you can deal with, work around, but a lot of the stuff in ESO is just ridiclious....

It's hard to beat a stamina build 1v1 on a magicka build? hahahahahaha. You're a funny guy.

Joy_Division

Arthg wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Again you go on about how much better medium armor is to light, then name classes that are going to be using heavy armor as what will be the dominant classes. And you mention paired with CP after talking about medium in a "remove CP" thread as if it were an issue in non-CP.

I'm not entirely sure what you are upset about. I'm not entirely sure you know what you're upset about.

I know exactly what im dissatisfied with.

thousands of players have quit this game because of the issues I have laid out above...my point being its far more then CP.

in a game focused around CC and Burst Stamina is EVERYTHING and regardless of CP or no CP, those who can CC break and dodge the most have significant advantages over those who can't period. When the ability to CC break and dodge is also increasing your damage, your resource pools, and your healing, its unbalanced...its literately the biggest issue with ESO, and removing CP isn't going to change that.

As i said before, in 1.x it was unbalanced too, BUT with the way Softcaps/hardcaps and such worked, it wasn't a deal breaker like it is now.

simply put, I am dissatisfied with how disadvantaged magicka builds are in 1-3 man pvp vs stamina builds, and its even worse with No-CP....if you can't dodge or break in PVP in this game your dead, stamina builds get more of that simply by stacking stamina, and magicka just becomes another stamina resource pool for them, while magicka stays disadvantaged in that department.

The ability to CC break and dodge should be based on a separate pool independent of Stam or Mag. Stamina Builds should also get access to a Purge and a Damage shield.

Removing CP isn't going to fix these issues, its a start in the right direction for the game, but its a small step.

I can't help thinking that a magicka build with high stam regen (hello Blood Spawn on a DK) solves a lot of the issues you mention.

Why don't you roll a light armor magicka templar and actually try as opposed to thinking it will work. When you get sick of dying because you have no stam, you'll realize the person you are arguing is 100% correct as to why just about every halfway decent magplar and mDK wear heavy, mNBs don't bother playing unless they are a bomb-build, and sorcs pray that the devs never mess with shield stacking

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Again you go on about how much better medium armor is to light, then name classes that are going to be using heavy armor as what will be the dominant classes. And you mention paired with CP after talking about medium in a "remove CP" thread as if it were an issue in non-CP.

I'm not entirely sure what you are upset about. I'm not entirely sure you know what you're upset about.

I know exactly what im dissatisfied with.

thousands of players have quit this game because of the issues I have laid out above...my point being its far more then CP.

in a game focused around CC and Burst Stamina is EVERYTHING and regardless of CP or no CP, those who can CC break and dodge the most have significant advantages over those who can't period. When the ability to CC break and dodge is also increasing your damage, your resource pools, and your healing, its unbalanced...its literately the biggest issue with ESO, and removing CP isn't going to change that.

As i said before, in 1.x it was unbalanced too, BUT with the way Softcaps/hardcaps and such worked, it wasn't a deal breaker like it is now.

simply put, I am dissatisfied with how disadvantaged magicka builds are in 1-3 man pvp vs stamina builds, and its even worse with No-CP....if you can't dodge or break in PVP in this game your dead, stamina builds get more of that simply by stacking stamina, and magicka just becomes another stamina resource pool for them, while magicka stays disadvantaged in that department.

The ability to CC break and dodge should be based on a separate pool independent of Stam or Mag. Stamina Builds should also get access to a Purge and a Damage shield.

Removing CP isn't going to fix these issues, its a start in the right direction for the game, but its a small step.

I can't help thinking that a magicka build with high stam regen (hello Blood Spawn on a DK) solves a lot of the issues you mention.

Why don't you roll a light armor magicka templar and actually try as opposed to thinking it will work. When you get sick of dying because you have no stam, you'll realize the person you are arguing is 100% correct as to why just about every halfway decent magplar and mDK wear heavy, mNBs don't bother playing unless they are a bomb-build, and sorcs pray that the devs never mess with shield stacking

That's because they either used to run magicka, gave up to run Stam meta and forgot how bad it was, or they googled "best ESO pvp builds" and everyone said just roll stamina also forgetting why magicka underperforms.

If they don't make defense a separate stat pool, at least offer those additional cost reductions to light armor builds to help close the gap without giving up dmg.

Sometimes I also feel like Physical armor should swap scale with spell resistance and sharpened should only increase spell penetration (since mace adds similar penetration values to sharpened.). So instead of having to live with 14k physical paper armor, you'll be able to stack higher Physical resistance. Light armor gets a shield as the reasoning why it shouldn't be stacked higher.

Want armor pen? Build for it. Want more spell resistance? Too bad roll a backup shield.

Arthg

Joy_Division wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Again you go on about how much better medium armor is to light, then name classes that are going to be using heavy armor as what will be the dominant classes. And you mention paired with CP after talking about medium in a "remove CP" thread as if it were an issue in non-CP.

I'm not entirely sure what you are upset about. I'm not entirely sure you know what you're upset about.

I know exactly what im dissatisfied with.

thousands of players have quit this game because of the issues I have laid out above...my point being its far more then CP.

in a game focused around CC and Burst Stamina is EVERYTHING and regardless of CP or no CP, those who can CC break and dodge the most have significant advantages over those who can't period. When the ability to CC break and dodge is also increasing your damage, your resource pools, and your healing, its unbalanced...its literately the biggest issue with ESO, and removing CP isn't going to change that.

As i said before, in 1.x it was unbalanced too, BUT with the way Softcaps/hardcaps and such worked, it wasn't a deal breaker like it is now.

simply put, I am dissatisfied with how disadvantaged magicka builds are in 1-3 man pvp vs stamina builds, and its even worse with No-CP....if you can't dodge or break in PVP in this game your dead, stamina builds get more of that simply by stacking stamina, and magicka just becomes another stamina resource pool for them, while magicka stays disadvantaged in that department.

The ability to CC break and dodge should be based on a separate pool independent of Stam or Mag. Stamina Builds should also get access to a Purge and a Damage shield.

Removing CP isn't going to fix these issues, its a start in the right direction for the game, but its a small step.

I can't help thinking that a magicka build with high stam regen (hello Blood Spawn on a DK) solves a lot of the issues you mention.

Why don't you roll a light armor magicka templar and actually try as opposed to thinking it will work. When you get sick of dying because you have no stam, you'll realize the person you are arguing is 100% correct as to why just about every halfway decent magplar and mDK wear heavy, mNBs don't bother playing unless they are a bomb-build, and sorcs pray that the devs never mess with shield stacking

Still a lot of magicka builds around, and those guys would be unkillable if you couldn't drain their stam.
In my humble opinion (please don't forget to quote my precautionary sentences next time you quote me), it is not that unbalanced, especially as stam builds are as pigeonholed into certain builds as magicka.

Minno wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Arthg wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Again you go on about how much better medium armor is to light, then name classes that are going to be using heavy armor as what will be the dominant classes. And you mention paired with CP after talking about medium in a "remove CP" thread as if it were an issue in non-CP.

I'm not entirely sure what you are upset about. I'm not entirely sure you know what you're upset about.

I know exactly what im dissatisfied with.

thousands of players have quit this game because of the issues I have laid out above...my point being its far more then CP.

in a game focused around CC and Burst Stamina is EVERYTHING and regardless of CP or no CP, those who can CC break and dodge the most have significant advantages over those who can't period. When the ability to CC break and dodge is also increasing your damage, your resource pools, and your healing, its unbalanced...its literately the biggest issue with ESO, and removing CP isn't going to change that.

As i said before, in 1.x it was unbalanced too, BUT with the way Softcaps/hardcaps and such worked, it wasn't a deal breaker like it is now.

simply put, I am dissatisfied with how disadvantaged magicka builds are in 1-3 man pvp vs stamina builds, and its even worse with No-CP....if you can't dodge or break in PVP in this game your dead, stamina builds get more of that simply by stacking stamina, and magicka just becomes another stamina resource pool for them, while magicka stays disadvantaged in that department.

The ability to CC break and dodge should be based on a separate pool independent of Stam or Mag. Stamina Builds should also get access to a Purge and a Damage shield.

Removing CP isn't going to fix these issues, its a start in the right direction for the game, but its a small step.

I can't help thinking that a magicka build with high stam regen (hello Blood Spawn on a DK) solves a lot of the issues you mention.

Why don't you roll a light armor magicka templar and actually try as opposed to thinking it will work. When you get sick of dying because you have no stam, you'll realize the person you are arguing is 100% correct as to why just about every halfway decent magplar and mDK wear heavy, mNBs don't bother playing unless they are a bomb-build, and sorcs pray that the devs never mess with shield stacking

That's because they either used to run magicka, gave up to run Stam meta and forgot how bad it was, or they googled "best ESO pvp builds" and everyone said just roll stamina also forgetting why magicka underperforms.

In context this "they" seems to refer to me so please let me just plead innocent, sir: I have my fun constantly trying new builds and trying to make them work (hence my sig), and I loathe proc sets (with a vengeance). So I do die a lot, but I can't care less.

technohic

I will say I never understood why light armor would have more roll cost than medium. Might be something they could do is pretty much make medium weapon damage and light magic damage but give them both the ability to sneak, roll, dodge. But I will say that if shields can't be crit, they should not have a dodge chance either.

Vizier

I've closed in on 400CP and I rather enjoy it. I've been playing in the CP campaign since I returned in Dec with 200 CP and I enjoy the challenge of fighting vs higher CP while EARNING my points and augmenting my skills. I don't appreciate the notion that ZoS should just scrap it and forget about trying to balance it. They are making changes to the balance and maybe they'll hit on it. Maybe they won't but in the I'll also be maxed CP, my skills will by more honed for having fought through the challenge of being a little "weaker" and I will bask in the glow of my earned CP with a feeling of accomplishment.

If you don't like CP and "All the good" players, as you say, are moving to Haderus, then be content to play there where you game is enjoyable for you and leave the game alone for everyone else. As it is every player has a choice to play with CP or not. I think that's reasonable.

CatchMeTrolling

So people actually think it's possible to balance a game regarding to pve, cp pvp and non cp pvp at the same time & expect the devs to actually get it right? It's not realistic, at least not with zos track record, they take too long to fix things or attempt to balance something out to begin with.

fred.thomsonb16_ESO

Remove resource poisons, fix streak, remove double curse, fix shadow image, fix cloak, remove major protection from monster set, bring back soft caps. IDGAF about cp. Uninstalled yet again to save my sanity.

Minno

technohic wrote: »

I will say I never understood why light armor would have more roll cost than medium. Might be something they could do is pretty much make medium weapon damage and light magic damage but give them both the ability to sneak, roll, dodge. But I will say that if shields can't be crit, they should not have a dodge chance either.

If they move dodge roll/block party separate stat pool, they have to move shields as well. This way all classes have the same defensive counters but you need to surgically build towards it and accept the lack of damage if you want to dodge roll everywhere, Shield stack 20k shields, block everything.

SlowMetabolism

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Or just apply Battle Spirit to CPs for a week and see how that plays (half values on everything).

^

rimmidimdim

SlowMetabolism wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Or just apply Battle Spirit to CPs for a week and see how that plays (half values on everything).

^

Yes. This! Maybe ever 75% reduction. But yes try it. Try more things in PvP. Changing PvP for a week here and there is a good idea and fun!

Baconlad

At this point id rather then just remove CP the way they have it and just rely on those minor cp Bonuses you get for spending cp in certain trees. Bam. No more CP being a problem.

For example "after blocking three spells gain a crit damage buff for five seconds" .