The needed changes for stam Nightblades to make them viable again.

Solariken

I like the suggestions from @Dorrino about sorting out Cloak once and for all. Let it purge everything and be completely unbreakable (except for reveal mechanics like Magelight), but give it a scaling cost penalty of +50% for 4 seconds to mirror Streak. As a trade-off for being unbreakable, the NB should take X% additional damage from AoE attacks and or receive X% less healing while Cloaked.

Surprise Attack should also probably lose the stun if Cloak is going to be so strong - it's already 10% stronger coming out of stealth and buffs itself with Major Fracture.

I also like the OP's idea to add Minor Lifesteal to Mark Target, but I would prefer it only be added to Reaper's Mark, not all morphs.

After those changes the class should be be in a really excellent balance position.

Dorrino

Solariken wrote: »

I like the suggestions from @Dorrino about sorting out Cloak once and for all. Let it purge everything and be completely unbreakable (except for reveal mechanics like Magelight), but give it a scaling cost penalty of +50% for 4 seconds to mirror Streak. As a trade-off for being unbreakable, the NB should take X% additional damage from AoE attacks and or receive X% less healing while Cloaked. .

Actually i'd disagree with cloak being fully unbreakable. This would make nbs too strong even taking into account the drawbacks you described.

It feels like we need it not to break on application, thus my proposed 0.2-0.3 sec full immunity.

If the cloak will have purge utility embedded into it that would be fine if it breaks in 0.5 sec.

Even more, this mechanics will move nightblades from invisible glass cannon gameplay paradigm to a bit squishy class with purge and hide on demand.

Cost increase might be +25% on application. This would allow stamblades to do 2-3 cloaks in a row and magblades ~5-6.

FlyLionel

Killset wrote: »

I just want some sort of major mending. I would trade cloak for it in a minute. The nerf to vitality pots devastated non gank nightblades in open world. Other classes are not affected by it that much. I feel like that nerf alone was aimed directly at the class.

Since release I've played stam nb, bro leave cloak...it's a nightblade thing seriously. Yes we're the most squishy class but also the hardest hitting class, saying things like completely trash in pvp unless you gank? I understand that you may be talking about the sheep who play NB and have trouble with surviving and can only 'win' by ganking; but still. Also remember we have the best resource management in the game hands down simply on automatic (passive/siphoning attacks/grim). And no dark deal doesn't count as automatic.

I agree that NB's ability missing major brutality sucks and all that but it's just the design, and it actually fits. They gave us brutality with power extraction which is decent in pve. If you want brutality with DW use shrouded daggers. It's all in the design yo. DK/Templar are suppose to be the beefier classes while sorc/nb have more unique things (shields/speed/cloaks). I just wish Zeni would make a thread explaining to everyone their goals with each class(maybe they did). Obviously DK are the OP tank guys, templars are all around jugs, sorcs...well someone has to play the typical magic build, stam wise it's more refreshing with stam sorc. And nightblades...use your intuition for them! Also I'd like to add that cloak is buggy at times taking you out of stealth sucks(broken record), please fix.

Solariken

Dorrino wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I like the suggestions from @Dorrino about sorting out Cloak once and for all. Let it purge everything and be completely unbreakable (except for reveal mechanics like Magelight), but give it a scaling cost penalty of +50% for 4 seconds to mirror Streak. As a trade-off for being unbreakable, the NB should take X% additional damage from AoE attacks and or receive X% less healing while Cloaked. .

Actually i'd disagree with cloak being fully unbreakable. This would make nbs too strong even taking into account the drawbacks you described.

It feels like we need it not to break on application, thus my proposed 0.2-0.3 sec full immunity.

If the cloak will have purge utility embedded into it that would be fine if it breaks in 0.5 sec.

Even more, this mechanics will move nightblades from invisible glass cannon gameplay paradigm to a bit squishy class with purge and hide on demand.

Cost increase might be +25% on application. This would allow stamblades to do 2-3 cloaks in a row and magblades ~5-6.

I would be mostly OK with what you described here, but I do think that immunity window is too short, there are many projectiles that have longer travel times than that, which would likely still cause the problems we see today.

I hate to split so many hairs over Cloak design theory since ZOS will do (or not do) whatever they want, but I would personally like to see it get a forgiving immunity window of at least 1s for the invisibility part, but still make the NB eat full damage from AoE during that window AND the damage from any projectiles that were launched before cloak was activated (you only went invisible after all, you didn't teleport away).

PrinceRyzen

Dorrino wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I like the suggestions from @Dorrino about sorting out Cloak once and for all. Let it purge everything and be completely unbreakable (except for reveal mechanics like Magelight), but give it a scaling cost penalty of +50% for 4 seconds to mirror Streak. As a trade-off for being unbreakable, the NB should take X% additional damage from AoE attacks and or receive X% less healing while Cloaked. .

Actually i'd disagree with cloak being fully unbreakable. This would make nbs too strong even taking into account the drawbacks you described.

It feels like we need it not to break on application, thus my proposed 0.2-0.3 sec full immunity.

If the cloak will have purge utility embedded into it that would be fine if it breaks in 0.5 sec.

Even more, this mechanics will move nightblades from invisible glass cannon gameplay paradigm to a bit squishy class with purge and hide on demand.

Cost increase might be +25% on application. This would allow stamblades to do 2-3 cloaks in a row and magblades ~5-6.

Cloak for NB is like shields for Sorcs. Shields absorb all damage and work every time.
Shields have no cost increase. Neither should cloak. A class shouldn't be penalized in order for an ability to work.


I'm on board for purge returning for single target dots. It's actually supposed to dodge single target abilities so that makes sense.

But the immunity mechanics along with the cost increase are nonsense IMO.

A simple middle ground solution is to simply allow NB to enter cloak but when taking AOE damage the red tint is visible to enemies just like it is for friendly targets. But the ability is still active. That way once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they vanish if the ability is still active without the need for recasting it.

SneaK

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Cloak for NB is like shields for Sorcs. Shields absorb all damage and work every time.
Shields have no cost increase. Neither should cloak. A class shouldn't be penalized in order for an ability to work.


I'm on board for purge returning for single target dots. It's actually supposed to dodge single target abilities so that makes sense.

But the immunity mechanics along with the cost increase are nonsense IMO.

A simple middle ground solution is to simply allow NB to enter cloak but when taking AOE damage the red tint is visible to enemies just like it is for friendly targets. But the ability is still active. That way once the night blade is out of range of the AOE damage they vanish if the ability is still active without the need for recasting it.

^^This guy gets it.^^

Micah_Bayer

PC NA mikepresjr as a NB look at him. Learn from him. Be him. NB buffed instantly at that. Fix cloak and that's all what you NB players should get. You chose the ninja class, you are not mean't to stand upfront to a fight even tho you can still, just play smarter.

Moglijuana

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e--r7fCN0k

This video proves how bad Stam NB is in Homestead.

TL:DW - They're fine.

Solariken

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I like the suggestions from @Dorrino about sorting out Cloak once and for all. Let it purge everything and be completely unbreakable (except for reveal mechanics like Magelight), but give it a scaling cost penalty of +50% for 4 seconds to mirror Streak. As a trade-off for being unbreakable, the NB should take X% additional damage from AoE attacks and or receive X% less healing while Cloaked. .

Actually i'd disagree with cloak being fully unbreakable. This would make nbs too strong even taking into account the drawbacks you described.

It feels like we need it not to break on application, thus my proposed 0.2-0.3 sec full immunity.

If the cloak will have purge utility embedded into it that would be fine if it breaks in 0.5 sec.

Even more, this mechanics will move nightblades from invisible glass cannon gameplay paradigm to a bit squishy class with purge and hide on demand.

Cost increase might be +25% on application. This would allow stamblades to do 2-3 cloaks in a row and magblades ~5-6.

Cloak for NB is like shields for Sorcs. Shields absorb all damage and work every time.
Shields have no cost increase. Neither should cloak. A class shouldn't be penalized in order for an ability to work.

Cloak is not like shields. Shields are like shields and Nightblades have the same basic access to those as any magicka class. Cloak is more akin to Bolt Escape.

I draw that distinction only to say that Cloak is NOT for soaking damage - it's for (attempting to) avoiding damage.

Also, magblades' ability to nearly live in invisibility is bad design. Cloak should be made more reliable, but it needs a scaling cost spam penalty to mirror Bolt Escape.

SneaK

Solariken wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I like the suggestions from @Dorrino about sorting out Cloak once and for all. Let it purge everything and be completely unbreakable (except for reveal mechanics like Magelight), but give it a scaling cost penalty of +50% for 4 seconds to mirror Streak. As a trade-off for being unbreakable, the NB should take X% additional damage from AoE attacks and or receive X% less healing while Cloaked. .

Actually i'd disagree with cloak being fully unbreakable. This would make nbs too strong even taking into account the drawbacks you described.

It feels like we need it not to break on application, thus my proposed 0.2-0.3 sec full immunity.

If the cloak will have purge utility embedded into it that would be fine if it breaks in 0.5 sec.

Even more, this mechanics will move nightblades from invisible glass cannon gameplay paradigm to a bit squishy class with purge and hide on demand.

Cost increase might be +25% on application. This would allow stamblades to do 2-3 cloaks in a row and magblades ~5-6.

Cloak for NB is like shields for Sorcs. Shields absorb all damage and work every time.
Shields have no cost increase. Neither should cloak. A class shouldn't be penalized in order for an ability to work.

Cloak is not like shields. Shields are like shields and Nightblades have the same basic access to those as any magicka class. Cloak is more akin to Bolt Escape.

I draw that distinction only to say that Cloak is NOT for soaking damage - it's for (attempting to) avoiding damage.

Also, magblades' ability to nearly live in invisibility is bad design. Cloak should be made more reliable, but it needs a scaling cost spam penalty to mirror Bolt Escape.

Pretty sure while in Cloak you soak up DoT damage.. technicality, I dunno..

Giving Cloak the Streak treatment is probably the worst idea ever for NB's.

Solariken

SneaK wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I like the suggestions from @Dorrino about sorting out Cloak once and for all. Let it purge everything and be completely unbreakable (except for reveal mechanics like Magelight), but give it a scaling cost penalty of +50% for 4 seconds to mirror Streak. As a trade-off for being unbreakable, the NB should take X% additional damage from AoE attacks and or receive X% less healing while Cloaked. .

Actually i'd disagree with cloak being fully unbreakable. This would make nbs too strong even taking into account the drawbacks you described.

It feels like we need it not to break on application, thus my proposed 0.2-0.3 sec full immunity.

If the cloak will have purge utility embedded into it that would be fine if it breaks in 0.5 sec.

Even more, this mechanics will move nightblades from invisible glass cannon gameplay paradigm to a bit squishy class with purge and hide on demand.

Cost increase might be +25% on application. This would allow stamblades to do 2-3 cloaks in a row and magblades ~5-6.

Cloak for NB is like shields for Sorcs. Shields absorb all damage and work every time.
Shields have no cost increase. Neither should cloak. A class shouldn't be penalized in order for an ability to work.

Cloak is not like shields. Shields are like shields and Nightblades have the same basic access to those as any magicka class. Cloak is more akin to Bolt Escape.

I draw that distinction only to say that Cloak is NOT for soaking damage - it's for (attempting to) avoiding damage.

Also, magblades' ability to nearly live in invisibility is bad design. Cloak should be made more reliable, but it needs a scaling cost spam penalty to mirror Bolt Escape.

Pretty sure while in Cloak you soak up DoT damage.. technicality, I dunno..

Giving Cloak the Streak treatment is probably the worst idea ever for NB's.

Not if it actually works. XD

mtwiggz

Cloak needs to be fixed.

Honestly, if they cannot figure out how to make you actually go to stealth, at least bring back the purge. That way you aren't throwing away magicka every time for absolutely no reason.

Once cloak is fixed the other issues could very well be void. Overall Stamblade is a strong class, it just lacks any kind of defense.

Hurika

changes I"d suggest....

1. Killer's Blade to Daedric (undefendable) damage. Would help against perma block, perma shield classes when you get them low on life, but not be overpowered the whole fight as it is very low damage outside of execute range.
2. One of the cloak morphs changed to a damage shield. Some love for mag NB
3. Remove stun from surprise attack and replace it with major defile - OR - 3s buffer after cloak drops that has a 50% chance to apply major defile

I don't want my NB to super tanky - but watching a heavy armor class go from 5% to 100% life with an insta cast ability is a bit discouraging.

mtwiggz

Hurika wrote: »

changes I"d suggest....

1. Killer's Blade to Daedric (undefendable) damage. Would help against perma block, perma shield classes when you get them low on life, but not be overpowered the whole fight as it is very low damage outside of execute range.
2. One of the cloak morphs changed to a damage shield. Some love for mag NB
3. Remove stun from surprise attack and replace it with major defile - OR - 3s buffer after cloak drops that has a 50% chance to apply major defile

I don't want my NB to super tanky - but watching a heavy armor class go from 5% to 100% life with an insta cast ability is a bit discouraging.

NBs already have the best CC in the game to help take down permablock builds. Permablock builds are annoying, yet mobile ultimate building tools. Nearly the same as having dynamic ult regen again! The issue is builds that can nearly permablock and deal high amounts of damage. Yet that's a conversation for an entirely different thread.

Cloak should just work. The ability to cloak is one of the most important skills for a Mageblade, broken or not. Not sure if an extra damage shield would be a good replacement for cloak. Would make the class similar to Magsorc, yet Magsorc toolkit is a better fit for a caster than Mageblade, may as well reroll at that point.

Adding Major Defile to Surprise Attack would be too OP with the current major debuffs it already applies.

Really think Stamblade is in a great place right now. If cloak would work the class would be at the top of the stamina class board. I really don't want to see Stamblade become ridiculously OP like it used to be. Just makes for more brutal nerfs down the line.

Derra

@Dorrino cloak should not act as purge to burst abilities like curse.

The new curse is imbalanced and needs to be reevaluated by zos. However the game does not need more purges (it needs less). The abilities that you absolutely want to purge need to be looked at.

While i agree it needs to actually work in the current class design - it also needs it´s bugs fixed.
Cloak acts as ~1s 100% forcedmiss against projectiles even when countered with a potion/poisons.

Jitterbug

A class major weapon/spell damage buff would definitely be awesome.

Maybe it could be added to Focus or Blur?

Torbschka

That thread, stam NB are fine - just adapt your build to minimize the disadvantages. I 1vx like crazy with my stamblade, as I do with almost any other class.

That saying, stam NB has all the tools needed for great solo 1vX gameplay ( I dont talk about ganking) - in the hands of a skilled player.

Dont buff stam NB, will make them fotm again, they are fine.

BohnT

Torbschka wrote: »

That thread, stam NB are fine - just adapt your build to minimize the disadvantages. I 1vx like crazy with my stamblade, as I do with almost any other class.

That saying, stam NB has all the tools needed for great solo 1vX gameplay ( I dont talk about ganking) - in the hands of a skilled player.

Dont buff stam NB, will make them fotm again, they are fine.

They may be oK in 1vX I can do this also on my stam nb but almost any other class can do the same with a lot less experience and skill.

But in small-scale every other class outclasses Stamnb with survivability, and group buffs
This is why I started this thread

Mayrael

PrinceRyzen wrote: »

rimmidimdim wrote: »

Give cloak purge again and the class is good again. But I like the added cost to it within four seconds idea. Like roll dodge and streak. The is would be a buff and also a reasonable compromise. I like the is idea whoever's it was. Cheers.

Cloak having purge would go a long way for NBs who want to stay and fight.

But cost increase on cloak is a bad idea. Streak is akin to roll dodge. But cloak is akin to shields. Shields have no cost increase. (And unlike cloak they always work)

Honestly tho, just think of it in practice. The ability that gets broken, interrupted, ignored (detect pot) and ends up being a waste of resource more than any other ability, having a cost increase. Yuck.

No thanx. No ability that often fails to work the first time should ever have a cost increase.

1. Youre wrong about streak, cloak roll dodge comparision. Cloak is more like dodge, you dodge all single attacks no matter how strong they are and how many of them is thrown at you. Sounds familiar? While streak just moves you somewhere, doesnt absorb damage, teleports you high in the air while used on hilly ground, its just good for running away (hiding behind a corner is still runing away, its not typical defense) not for defending in combat.
2. If cloak would have purge again, it would be much much much more reliable and should have some draw backs as it would be OP if not (dodge with 100% crit, major ward and purge + escape skill.) Maybe aoes shouldnt break cloak and we should get rid of all detect skills and pots? So can we get rid of major maim, fasallas and shield breaker sets to? Fear also should be removed so perma blocking would be possible?

Stamblade is burst damage class, one of the most dynamic and fun fighting style (if you do it right). Its like fencing, unload heavy attacks combo and then roll cloak, and again.

Do it needs help? Yes. How? Fix cloak. How to do it? Problems with cloak most of the time are caused by high ping. Example. I fire arrow at you at 00:01. You click cloak at 00:02. But because of delay at my side server recieves message that i fired an arrow at you and you werent cloaked at 00:02. Because of delay at your side you recieve damage at 00:03, your cloak gets broken. It will happend no matter if cloak will purge you or not. What needs to be done is to prevent any single dmg skill or attack to break the cloak. Only aoes should do that. Thats all. Even if someone charges at you and hits you after you entered cloak, you will recivie first dmg but cloak stays on you and prevents you from recievieng further dmg unless someone uses an aoe.

Dont beg for cloak purge as it wont happend, be glad that it surpresses dots because it shouldnt.

Chair

Stamblade is perfectly fine Jesus no need to change it ._.

Killset

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

I'll admit it, I am triggered by all the people that don't know how to StamNB. I don't disagree with your suggestions on some of those skills as they aren't really used much, if at all. However I do disagree that Stamblades are bad outside of ganking.

Do you play with multiple characters? I do, and I can make any class look OP. I can wipe a small Zerg with my magsorc, and dueling with my magDK is stupid easy. You know what my issue is? I can be successful in every aspect with my stamblade, but it requires a ton more skill, and attention to do so; and the worst part is that it is less rewarding. It pisses me off that I can kill so many more people by myself with my magsorc than I can with my stamblade, and it requires less skill to do it.

If a certain class or play style has a higher skill cap, it better pay off when it comes to performance. But in this game it doesn't.

That needs to change. And I would rather see stamblades get stronger than get simpler because the reason why the stamblade is my favorite is because it requires me to pay attention more which makes me more engaged with the game.

This. This right here. My mDK hit a 19.1k take flight in a duel yesterday. It's a great day when I see 12k on an incap. Nearly everyone of my friends (and my friends are very good players and nasty duellers) have abandoned nightblade because the class has been decimated through direct and indirect nerfs.

When people say nightblades have the highest burst potential I laugh. It immediately tells me they are not 1v1ing high end players with high end builds. Period. A sorc can level you with 30k worth of damage in a second. And when you look at your health bar only count 80% of that because if you drop below 20% your dead.

Now let's talk about power of the light. I was getting hit with 8.6k PoL's in full Heavy. It's crashing into you every 6 seconds along with their damage monster set of choice and undodgeable jabs.

I don't even have the energy too talk about mDKs and pet sorcs. How they are even allowed to exist in this game in their current state blows my F' ing mind.

Killset

Moglijuana wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e--r7fCN0k

This video proves how bad Stam NB is in Homestead.

TL:DW - They're fine.

Do you think posting one video of a Stamblade 2vXing somehow magically and definitively proves your point? I've got tons of those. Doesn't change a thing. I can find videos of every class doing the same thing. No one posts their videos of them getting flattened in 10 seconds with the title " I suck but I feel like the class has great potential!" Heck I could argue that video merely proves how OP sorc is that it could carry a nightblade through that. See what I did their?

I am in no way trying to be harsh but a skilled player will generally do well against less skilled players. The test comes when it is equally skilled players running with optimized builds. When that happens the cream usually rises to the top.

Valencer

Regarding the OP: Point 2 to 4 are not stamblade-specific.

Exactly which other stamina class is not missing some buffs? Stam DKs and stam sorcs dont have minor endurance afaik, and nobody except NBs has minor berserk.

Which stamina class does not have a ton of useless skills? Stamblades arent unique in that respect at all, and Id argue that they have some of the best stamina morphs in the game.

And being forced into specific builds...? The only class that can make a 2h-less build work atm is stam sorc. Stam DK and stamplar both need momentum just as much as stamblades.

Stamblades have really good survival. Just dont expect to facetank damage in medium armour, make clever use of cloak and shadow image and people will find it impossible to lock you down unless theyre running builds with a lot of spammable AoEs. And if you really want to facetank damage you can always adopt a heavy armour build like 80% of cyrodiil does, because it's that easy to pull off..

runningtings

I'd settle for fixing cloak above all other ideas mentioned on this thread.

Xvorg

mtwiggz wrote: »

Cloak needs to be fixed.

Honestly, if they cannot figure out how to make you actually go to stealth, at least bring back the purge. That way you aren't throwing away magicka every time for absolutely no reason.

Once cloak is fixed the other issues could very well be void. Overall Stamblade is a strong class, it just lacks any kind of defense.

I'd just reduce the purge to 2 instead of 4

zuto40

We can work fine on our own terms, a stamblades defense is its offense which is very troublesome with all the tanks around and when out numbered but it's doable, fixing cloak and making it purge dots would solve literally all my problems currently in PvP, those are the only buffs we need, and while I'd like more buffs anything else would be too much

Xvorg

Valencer wrote: »

Which stamina class does not have a ton of useless skills? Stamblades arent unique in that respect at all, and Id argue that they have some of the best stamina morphs in the game.

Like?

Honestly, just SA. All the others, incuding Relentless are worse than any similar weapon skill. In fact, 2 light attacks with a bow > relentless.

Izaki

SneaK wrote: »

I'll admit it, I am triggered by all the people that don't know how to StamNB. I don't disagree with your suggestions on some of those skills as they aren't really used much, if at all. However I do disagree that Stamblades are bad outside of ganking.

Clearly you don't PvE.

zuto40

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

I'll admit it, I am triggered by all the people that don't know how to StamNB. I don't disagree with your suggestions on some of those skills as they aren't really used much, if at all. However I do disagree that Stamblades are bad outside of ganking.

Clearly you don't PvE.

This is the PvP section of the forums

Killset

FlyLionel wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

I just want some sort of major mending. I would trade cloak for it in a minute. The nerf to vitality pots devastated non gank nightblades in open world. Other classes are not affected by it that much. I feel like that nerf alone was aimed directly at the class.

Since release I've played stam nb, bro leave cloak...it's a nightblade thing seriously. Yes we're the most squishy class but also the hardest hitting class, saying things like completely trash in pvp unless you gank? I understand that you may be talking about the sheep who play NB and have trouble with surviving and can only 'win' by ganking; but still. Also remember we have the best resource management in the game hands down simply on automatic (passive/siphoning attacks/grim). And no dark deal doesn't count as automatic.

I agree that NB's ability missing major brutality sucks and all that but it's just the design, and it actually fits. They gave us brutality with power extraction which is decent in pve. If you want brutality with DW use shrouded daggers. It's all in the design yo. DK/Templar are suppose to be the beefier classes while sorc/nb have more unique things (shields/speed/cloaks). I just wish Zeni would make a thread explaining to everyone their goals with each class(maybe they did). Obviously DK are the OP tank guys, templars are all around jugs, sorcs...well someone has to play the typical magic build, stam wise it's more refreshing with stam sorc. And nightblades...use your intuition for them! Also I'd like to add that cloak is buggy at times taking you out of stealth sucks(broken record), please fix.

So have I, I'm just saying cloak is so unreliable I would trade it for something useful at this point. And you are 100% incorrect in thinking nightblades are the hardest hitting class.