WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

Johngo0036

@willlienellson - I totally disagree with you on your rant.. Most of the You tubers are in touch with their communities/followers and take up the issue with zenni when the opportunity arises...

I think the fact that these youtubers have been invited to zenni studios to test/discuss things is GREAT for us the community...

Jim_Pipp

There seems to be a misperception that this PR exercise is to make the game more playable. It's not.

People with loud voices and influence are being pampered and flattered so they can keep the hype train going for morrowind. In the same week we had the Superbowl advert, Facebook advertising and numerous puff piece "news stories" this is another part of the marketing strategy.

All the 'delegates' will be sympathetically listened too and token changes made. They will leave with a feeling of personal investment in ESO and a desire to keep the game going, and will use their influence at a time many new players may be considering the game.

Zos will do some low-key self promotion (e.g. tweeting pics of developers and players at a round table) to imply they listen to their players and it is no big deal.

They could have involved more players for far less cost using teleconferencing, but that wouldn't serve the real purpose of this exercise. Unfortunately too long with ZOS is making me very cynical.

Turelus

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

There seems to be a misperception that this PR exercise is to make the game more playable. It's not.

People with loud voices and influence are being pampered and flattered so they can keep the hype train going for morrowind. In the same week we had the Superbowl advert, Facebook advertising and numerous puff piece "news stories" this is another part of the marketing strategy.

All the 'delegates' will be sympathetically listened too and token changes made. They will leave with a feeling of personal investment in ESO and a desire to keep the game going, and will use their influence at a time many new players may be considering the game.

Zos will do some low-key self promotion (e.g. tweeting pics of developers and players at a round table) to imply they listen to their players and it is no big deal.

They could have involved more players for far less cost using teleconferencing, but that wouldn't serve the real purpose of this exercise. Unfortunately too long with ZOS is making me very cynical.

You're even more cynical than me, I didn't think that was possible.

hamgatan

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

People with loud voices and influence are being pampered and flattered so they can keep the hype train going for morrowind. In the same week we had the Superbowl advert, Facebook advertising and numerous puff piece "news stories" this is another part of the marketing strategy.

*mic drop*

^ THIS. EXACTLY.

Pamper those with the largest follower communities, get them raving about how awesome housing is.. followers be like.. well housing must be awesome then because <insert name here> said so.

Marketing through influence. As i said above putting them on a pedestal.. to become second tier Zenimax salespeople.. because zeni know that their fanbases will lap up anything that spills from their mouths.

Hammy01

We can only hope that these "special players" help ZOS do what is best for ESO as a whole for the benefit of the player base and not for their personal gain. I truly hope they realize that a healthy ESO and player base is better for everyone.... Including them selves!!!

anitajoneb17_ESO

hamgatan wrote: »

Appreciate what they do for the game, but I don't appreciate the god-like status you're conveying on them because its ruining it for the other 90%.

Noone from ZOS is conveying them a "god-like" status. The only ones who are in the position to do that is their audience. That's, basically, us.

StackonClown

hamgatan wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

People with loud voices and influence are being pampered and flattered so they can keep the hype train going for morrowind. In the same week we had the Superbowl advert, Facebook advertising and numerous puff piece "news stories" this is another part of the marketing strategy.

*mic drop*

^ THIS. EXACTLY.

Pamper those with the largest follower communities, get them raving about how awesome housing is.. followers be like.. well housing must be awesome then because <insert name here> said so.

Marketing through influence. As i said above putting them on a pedestal.. to become second tier Zenimax salespeople.

Hmmm.. interesting observations

anitajoneb17_ESO

hamgatan wrote: »

Pamper those with the largest follower communities, get them raving about how awesome housing is.. followers be like.. well housing must be awesome then because <insert name here> said so.

Marketing through influence. As i said above putting them on a pedestal.. to become second tier Zenimax salespeople.

Well, you'd do the same if you were ZOS, wouldn't you ? ;-)

That being said, Fengrush is known for extensive ZOS-bashing during his stream, with a vocabulary that your and my grandmother would highly disapprove of. And as far as I know, he's there too. The model becomes : "Well, let's try [insert content name here] because Fengrush said it was [insert insult here] ;-)

Nifty2g

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

hamgatan wrote: »

Appreciate what they do for the game, but I don't appreciate the god-like status you're conveying on them because its ruining it for the other 90%.

Noone from ZOS is conveying them a "god-like" status. The only ones who are in the position to do that is their audience. That's, basically, us.

Well said actually, pretty much what this thread is

Seraphayel

Fodore wrote: »

If the people in charge of ZOS had half a brain they would have invited them before the release/announcement of homestead to help with balancing.But no.

Balancing for the 2.x version of the game doesn't matter anymore. Morrowind and the 3.0 “restart“ of the game is what matters now and I am happy they took some of the most competent streamers to discuss the issues of Cyrodiil, PvP and maybe builds.

ESO will be in a desolate state until Morrowind release because everybody is focusing on that - and I am fine with that. Morrowind is their relaunch with (hopefully) many balance tweaks, skill (line) revamps, new ways of approaching Cyrodiil etc.

Wollust

This thread has got to be a joke

ScooberSteve

Sounds like someones jealous

willlienellson

delete

willlienellson

Deltia wrote: »

With all that's going on in the world and you're worried about this? Jealous man, smh.

You realize you literally have basically dedicated your LIFE to gaming right?

You can't possibly be serious judging me taking the time to write a forum post about it. Surely not.

SMH indeed.

Nifty2g

willlienellson wrote: »

Deltia wrote: »

With all that's going on in the world and you're worried about this? Jealous man, smh.

You realize you literally have basically dedicated your LIFE to gaming right?

You can't possibly be serious judging me taking the time to write a forum post about it. Surely not.

SMH indeed.

http://omahamagazine.com/articles/iraq-war-vet-jacob-hausman-battles-ptsd-and-finds-peace/

Try to be less salty to those who are actually going to be helping the game you play, streamers listen to feedback their fans have to say and are going to be the biggest influence to help get things changed. Not only that but it works both ways too, fans will hear streamers and then take sides in getting changes

Remember Fengrush and his AOE cap rants? It actually went somewhere.

Kronuxx

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

There seems to be a misperception that this PR exercise is to make the game more playable. It's not.

People with loud voices and influence are being pampered and flattered so they can keep the hype train going for morrowind. In the same week we had the Superbowl advert, Facebook advertising and numerous puff piece "news stories" this is another part of the marketing strategy.

All the 'delegates' will be sympathetically listened too and token changes made. They will leave with a feeling of personal investment in ESO and a desire to keep the game going, and will use their influence at a time many new players may be considering the game.

Zos will do some low-key self promotion (e.g. tweeting pics of developers and players at a round table) to imply they listen to their players and it is no big deal.

They could have involved more players for far less cost using teleconferencing, but that wouldn't serve the real purpose of this exercise. Unfortunately too long with ZOS is making me very cynical.

This man understands how corporations work. ZOS is a subsidiary of ZeniMax Media, the parent company that owns Bethesda Softwork, id Software, Arkane studios, etc. I'll ask you this: Marlboro cigarettes, just like any other are harmful. Owned by the parent company Philip Morris, who also own Kraft Foods and General Foods. You may go to the grocery store, and think to yourself "Here is a company that cares about our health. Cheerios, good for the heart!". And while it may be better than other cereals out there, they don't make it because they care about your heart health. They make it because they know people will buy it based on the premise that it's good for your health. If they cared about your health, then why continue production of cigarettes... So now, if you think that ZeniMax Online Studios has your interest consistently in mind, you people would then be very naive and well...quite stupid too. To assume that content such as battlegrounds, new dungeons, new trials, homes are released because you requested it? Maybe, but unlikely. When people do datamining in the game, they find instances of evidence suggesting plans that ZOS had in mind for the game, even before the requests of people at times. No, my poor naive children, they release this content not because you asked for it, but because they planned to all along. They know it will bring in money, and honestly who could blame them. They are company first and foremost, with hundreds of employees that they must send home with a paycheck, so that they too can feed their families.

Now, that's not to say a company can ignore the people who play this game, otherwise they would have no customers, but to say that a "few representatives" of the gaming community will help ZOS in understanding balance changes and future content ideas? Sheer folly. This is a PR move, first and foremost. To quiet down the masses, and make them...docile. The bug updates and balance changes may come, but that is not their priority. Their priority is 1) How can we keep the majority of players to continue playing and continue buying our services? 2) How can we bring in new players to buy our game and continue to play, with purchases of our services?

Sometimes, a company breaks out of the mold, to produce changes in a game that may not necessarily profit them, but that's usually because the higher ups begin to have the good in their conscience weigh down upon them, in addition to realizing that NOW (at the current moment in time, whenever that will be) the majority player base has become dissatisfied with the current balance state and bugs within the game. I will admit though, that if Fengrush goes and they listen to him, it will bring in a more balanced approach to what should be changed in this game, as he represents the critical, albeit sometimes cynical side of the game. But for the health of the game, you need two sides. Not just constant butt-kissing. If you have just constant butt-kissers (not saying the others attending are, just speaking hypothetically), then ZOS may end up getting a misconstrued version of what changes really need to happen in the game. Essentially point is here, the more "representatives" ZOS brings in to meet with them, the better for the game and for the general masses who play this game, as that allows multiple view points to be conveyed on what ZOS should and shouldn't fix. Whether ZOS will listen to those view points is something we will never know, but, my bet is ZOS will implement "changes" (whatever they may be), if it brings in more players (whether new or returning), or prevents a large loss in players, and therefore help maintain a steady cash flow.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

willlienellson

Nifty2g wrote: »

http://omahamagazine.com/articles/iraq-war-vet-jacob-hausman-battles-ptsd-and-finds-peace/

Oh for FFS, you don't get to judge people for doing the same thing your doing, even if you have a good reason for doing it.

If you think I'm suggesting Deltia shouldn't spend time playing video games you missed the point.

The point is he shouldn't judge other people for doing even less than he does.

The guy just insulted me and I pretty much illustrated his hypocrisy in the most gentle way possible. You think that's salty? Give me a break.

willlienellson

Kronuxx wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

People with loud voices and influence are being pampered and flattered so they can keep the hype train going for morrowind. In the same week we had the Superbowl advert, Facebook advertising and numerous puff piece "news stories" this is another part of the marketing strategy.

This man understands how corporations work.

Nobody is doubting the marketing value of the relationship between the streamers and Zos. But they don't need to pander to them or let them have ANY influence on balancing for that relationship to continue.

These streamers exist to gain fame and in some cases personal income from the game - which is fine, and Zos gets free advertising in return - which is fine.

They don't need to have more influence on game direction than anyone else for that symbiotic relationship to continue.

And other business and industries don't operate this way. They don't.

They have this relationship between media (I'm being generous) and corporate, but product development and creative direction is never in play.

Faulgor

And here I am, just happy that this probably means we'll get more info on Morrowind soon, too.

Hope the guys and gals that got invited have a good time.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

willlienellson wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

Also, I think it's pretty crappy how mod and addon authors are always left out in the cold and treated sort of like second class citizens next to their PR pets. They are seemingly just taken for granted for the most part.

We are expected to fix bugs and generate value for the company for free. We don't even get crown perks or community picks for some meaningless title or anything. Fine whatever, I do it as a hobby. But so do streamers. Yet streamers get big time sponsorship and MONEY for THEIR hobby.

I'd be lucky to make enough in donations to pay my monthly sub.

This is what I don't get.

In all honesty if Deltia et al never made another video it would not diminish my game fun one bit, and I am not being disrespectful by that.

But without the UI Modders this game would be borderline unplayable, and my game fun would very much be diminished.

All The Best

I agree with you guys about including Modders, but honestly, I don't think FOCUSING on feedback from either of this tiny groups is healthy.

I don't see why we should be okay with Zos ignoring hundreds and thousands of people complaining about the same things to focus on the feedback of a half a dozen streamers.....or a half a dozen modders.

But more inclusion is better than less. So, adding the modders to the streamers would be a step in the right direction.

I agree entirely.

I have been a member of a Player Consultative Committee in the past, for another game (FPS game). Originally the game developers mooted the idea and were intent on inviting just clan leasers and highly ranked competitive players. I was initially a lone voice opposed to that as it effectively disenfranchised roughly 60% of the entire player-base. I lobbied via Forums and PMs to to the Dev team for that PCC to include solo players, to include casual players. And after 4 or 5 weeks of such lobbying they agreed. At the time I was a clan leader, but was invited to represent Casuals and Solo players - because the solo and casual players on the forums trusted me to fight their corner. For two weeks my Inbox was full of PMs from solo and casual players highlighting their concerns, and I took the top 10 of those concerns to the table and fought damned hard to get action on them. Competitive and Clan players had their concerns too and over the course of several hours we hashed those out in a VOIP conference. We categorised the issues as "critical" and "quality of life", and of 16 critical issues 13 were addressed in the next two patches, and of 10 or so QoL issues 6 were also resolved.

Those two patches were widely considered to be the best in terms of what they delivered, but were also best in terms of subsequent player satisfaction and retention. 12 months or so later I was invited to represent Casual and Solo players at a second PCC, but because of RL circumstances at the time was unable to do so - and the patches after that PCC were also hugely successful.

Zenimax can't make this game better just by concentrating on a narrow portion of the player-base to give feedback.

For those saying Deltia and the others are just there to look at Battlegrounds, that misses the point. PvP in this game is under used because it simply isn't even remotely appealing to an awful lot of players - listening to some of those players and taking note of their concerns offers Zenimax an opportunity to make PvP far more inclusive, and that means Zenimax can then justify spending more resources on PvP.

All The Best

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Kronuxx

willlienellson wrote: »

Kronuxx wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

People with loud voices and influence are being pampered and flattered so they can keep the hype train going for morrowind. In the same week we had the Superbowl advert, Facebook advertising and numerous puff piece "news stories" this is another part of the marketing strategy.

This man understands how corporations work.

Nobody is doubting the marketing value of the relationship between the streamers and Zos. But they don't need to pander to them or let them have ANY influence on balancing for that relationship to continue.

These streamers exist to gain fame and in some cases personal income from the game - which is fine, and Zos gets free advertising in return - which is fine.

They don't need to have more influence on game direction than anyone else for that symbiotic relationship to continue.

And other business and industries don't operate this way. They don't.

They have this relationship between media (I'm being generous) and corporate, but product development and creative direction is never in play.

I think you didn't quite read what I or the person I quoted wrote.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

cheemers wrote: »

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that PC is no more than a third of the total population, if that.

Apparently it does.

Just because there are three platforms to access the game it does NOT mean that players are evenly split among those three platforms.

PC is the traditional home of MMORPGs and though huge advances in making MMORPGS workable on console have been made in recent years I very much doubt that either console version has as many players as PC.

All The Best

Tyrion87

I couldn't care less for streamers tbh. I neither watch their vids nor consider them worthy to follow. They just don't exist for me. I never understand why people watch these vids and waste their time to do so instead of actually playing the game by themselves. But if they are good just like any other good players and fully objective in their opinions then why not? Moreover, I don't recall that ZOS stated that the invited players are only streamers.

What I do hope is that @Asayre got an invitation. Not inviting this guy would be a huge mistake since he's one of the few players who really know how the game works. I would even say: hire him, ZOS.

Cherryblossom

@willlienellson
Just because you don't like a few of the Streamers doesn't mean you're automatically right, or mean they don't make constructive arguments about what is wrong in the game.

The exploit video's that blew open the issue with the hack program was brought to the forefront by one of the Streamer I'd imagine you don't like.

But I personally would suggest you watch some of the You Tube video's by Gilliamtherogue, this is one of the YouTubers that are going along, I think you will find he knows what he's talking about.

When it comes to balance, many of these guys really do understand the issues facing the game as they play at a high level and understand how it's easy to kill the scrubs in PVP and why some things contribute to toxic game play. This is incredibly important for the up coming battlegrounds, or we will see Capture the Flag games dominated by heavy armour Templars, Team Death Match dominated by Ganking NB. Understanding how these streamers will adapt a build to deal with these gameplay strategies, is an important thing for ZOS to understand. so they know what they need to do so they are not dominated by a couple of OP builds.

ESO is an incredibly casual game, more or less everything is set up for the middle ground, with the exception of some very high end Veteran Hardmode content. PVE open world has never really been a challenge since they Nerf'd Doshia because some thought it was too hard, personally I think Open world being so easy contributes to the lack of skill we see within Veteran Dungeons on a regular basis.

Derra

The only thing i´m concerned about is no dedicated magica sorc being part of the club.

Tommy_The_Gun

Favourite race and class of those "streamers" will receive a buff ! I am sure of it !
xD

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Deltia wrote: »

With all that's going on in the world and you're worried about this? Jealous man, smh.

@Deltia

Come on man. I agree with most of what @willlienellson has said, and my agreement with him has nothing to do with jealousy.

If a game wants to see improved player satisfaction and improved player retention - because both are required for sustainable income growth - then it needs to listen to more than the top 1%, the top 5% or even the top 25% of players.

Let me clue you in to something. You are not there because they think you are a great player, even though you may be. You are there because you have 110,000+ followers on youtube.

All The Best

willlienellson

Faulgor wrote: »

Open world being so easy contributes to the lack of skill we see within Veteran Dungeons on a regular basis.

I would agree with that at least.

Look, my issue is two-fold. First, I don't think they represent us. I don't think they can represent us because of how different their experience is. But secondly - even if I'm wrong, and just as important, I find it offensive on principle how established methods of feedback from the general playerbase is roundly ignored while they seek feedback from a select few.