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WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players
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bitels✭✭✭✭
Have to disagree, i already once mentioned it in this topic but i could repeat:StackonClown wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »
Again, the best players actually work for Zeni - they dont really need any <insert player/streamer here> to show them something that they 'didnt work out yet' - they *wrote the game* LOL
Testers on ZoS pay roll dont know everything. They may lack of experience in a field of competive end game that some players have, or maybe they lack certain point of view that they have. Either way- example above show how important feedback from those players might beBest example- Woeler video about frost tanking, where he pointed out a basic problems with whole concept, that could be easily fixed on the earlier stages, but at that point it was already to late to rework whole thing, so now we are stucked with it for at least next 4 monthEdited by bitels on 9 February 2017 14:360 -
Arthg✭✭✭✭✭
✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.
But that's exactly what's at hand here:
1) how more valuable than pages after pages of feedback threads are those exceptional players' opinions?
2) why should ZOS pay heed to these opinions rather than the feedback threads, which ZOS consistently ignore?
If I weren't the ever-optimist, I'd say that ZOS is doing nothing else than cleverly turning potentially critical prominent members of the players' "community" into docile instruments of the back-stabbing, money-grabbing operation that Morrowind is.
"Morrowind. Tested and balanced by Alcast, Fengrush, Deltia and Sypher. Out June 2017 for only $49.99."PC/EU. NoCP PvP. sDK Orc IRL. Flawless tamperor. Pro scrub.2 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.
But that's exactly what's at hand here:
1) how more valuable than pages after pages of feedback threads are those exceptional players' opinions?
2) why should ZOS pay heed to these opinions rather than the feedback threads, which ZOS consistently ignore?
If I weren't the ever-optimist, I'd say that ZOS is doing nothing else than cleverly turning potentially critical prominent members of the players' "community" into docile instruments of the back-stabbing, money-grabbing operation that Morrowind is.
"Morrowind. Tested and balanced by Alcast, Fengrush, Deltia and Sypher. Out June 2017 for only $49.99."
Better then:
Morrowind. Tested and balanced by average dudes who don't know *** about the game. Out June 2017 for only $49.99Edited by JinMori on 9 February 2017 14:285 -
StackonClown✭✭✭✭✭
Have to disagree, i already once mentioned it in this topic but i could repeat:StackonClown wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »
Again, the best players actually work for Zeni - they dont really need any <insert player/streamer here> to show them something that they 'didnt work out yet' - they *wrote the game* LOLBest example- Woeler video about frost tanking, where he pointed out a basic problems with whole concept, that could be easily fixed on the earlier stages, but at that point it was already to late to rework whole thing, so now we are stucked with it for at least next 4 month
Yeah I remember reading this now - Ok, so what do we expect will happen ? Once Deltia and the gang are there, will they ask Zeni: 'please listen to people like Woeler in future' ? As we have been saying all along, even if Woeler sees it as a flaw, either Zeni doesnt or doesnt care, or doesnt want to for other reasons fix it ?
Isn't dropping 'premium' gear in training/prosperous essentially a flaw ?
Will Zeni fix it - Noooooo! They WANT you to have a crap roll chance - They WANT you to run VMA 500 times
This is their business model - how do you fix this flaw?0 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
But that's exactly what's at hand here:
1) how more valuable than pages after pages of feedback threads are those exceptional players' opinions?
2) why should ZOS pay heed to these opinions rather than the feedback threads, which ZOS consistently ignore?
I explained that already (comment #295 in this thread) but I don't mind copy/pasting again
Forum feedback is totally different from what they are doing now. Players on forum do their own thing and follow their own expectations in the game. Their feedback is just the conclusion of that, and there's usually not much information on what and how they reach that conclusion / feedback.
What ZOS is doing now allows to put all participants in the same conditions, doing the same thing and asked to look at things from the same approach. The collected feedback is much more valuable in those circumstances.
Last but not least, forum feedback doesn't allow ZOS to see what players DO. It's only what players SAY. And more often than not, looking at what people DO differs greatly from what people SAY. When you do behaviour analysis (player/playing behaviour analysis in the current case) it's crucial to consider what people DO and not only what they SAY.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StackonClown wrote: »
So why make it public? I don't see how it helps - apart from the pyramid marketing style effect it will have later.
A few people on here have said ZOS never said these players represent the community etc - then don't mention it at all?
But to announce this to the community is attempting to imply that either the community is indeed represented or will benefit somehow.
In the mean time, ZOS does indeed solicit feedback on the forums ALL the time - Just check all the 'Official feedback thread for <insert here>' threads. But how often do we see them either ignore dozens of pages of feedback or do the exact opposite. Then why bother - just do whatever...
The thing that I'm a bit surprised by is Zeni not really focusing on fixing serious issues like botting, exploits etc.
Why make it public? So that we know that they are taking community input. As SirAndy said, they have been taking community input, and having meetings with players, for years. While these have not (all) been in secret, as even I have heard about them, they are not announced. A big complaint from community is that they don't listen. Now, we can change gears and really dig into the complaint that they listen to the wrong people.
I, for one, am happy that they brought people in to play test under NDA for Morrowind, and perhaps other systems that are T.B.A. I really don't care about the bias of the players that they bring in because those players counter the bias that the developers have had for the last several months designing and developing this stuff. For as much as they might not agree, they live in an Ivory Tower. They need players to come in and talk to them to combat this.
I do not know whether they brought anyone in for One Tamriel, or Homestead, but in the case of the latter, if they did not do that, they should have done that. Homestead is a massive amount of investment, and I still feel that it missed the mark. It is too niche for the amount of effort they put into it.
If ZOS were in the early stages of design and were bringing in players for stuff that we will not see for a year, then I would be more concerned about who they were bringing in.
Why not pull from the forum? I am sure they do. The problem with the forum is that the people who are making suggestions are doing it out of context. They cannot know whether the suggestion they are making is the right thing to do, or even possible. This means that some suggestions, while sounding right, might be wide of the mark. Since the popularity of a comment or suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with how valid the suggestion is, it is inevitable that a high profile popular suggestion will not be used.StackonClown wrote: »A LOT of people complained about Crown crates, including some of the so called 'famous streamers' - will the people visiting Zeni speak up about the 'money grab' or keep their peace for fear of 'not being invited next time'...
They can speak up, if they want, but I don't think that ZOS is the originator of the Crown Crates. The complaint would need to be directed at the people who are. Those people probably won't be at an event like this, although, it is possible that they might make a cameo.StackonClown wrote: »How about all the complaining about RNG ??
This is a more appropriate comment for a venue like this. ZOS could have changed that, if they wanted to. That they did not (yet) speaks as loudly as those who want it changed. I, for one, would be interested in hearing more about what ZOS thinks.StackonClown wrote: »To me this whole thing seems to be a mix of 2nd tier marketing by buddying up with known players (very good players at that) that have a profile and also buying their silence at least for a while.
Dont bite the hand that feeds you - come to mind ?
To me, this is an end-stage play test focus group for development purposes.The Elder Scrolls Online: Grind Road
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus1 -
StackonClown✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »StackonClown wrote: »
So why make it public? I don't see how it helps - apart from the pyramid marketing style effect it will have later.
A few people on here have said ZOS never said these players represent the community etc - then don't mention it at all?
But to announce this to the community is attempting to imply that either the community is indeed represented or will benefit somehow.
In the mean time, ZOS does indeed solicit feedback on the forums ALL the time - Just check all the 'Official feedback thread for <insert here>' threads. But how often do we see them either ignore dozens of pages of feedback or do the exact opposite. Then why bother - just do whatever...
The thing that I'm a bit surprised by is Zeni not really focusing on fixing serious issues like botting, exploits etc.
Why make it public? So that we know that they are taking community input. As SirAndy said, they have been taking community input, and having meetings with players, for years. While these have not (all) been in secret, as even I have heard about them, they are not announced. A big complaint from community is that they don't listen. Now, we can change gears and really dig into the complaint that they listen to the wrong people.
I, for one, am happy that they brought people in to play test under NDA for Morrowind, and perhaps other systems that are T.B.A. I really don't care about the bias of the players that they bring in because those players counter the bias that the developers have had for the last several months designing and developing this stuff. For as much as they might not agree, they live in an Ivory Tower. They need players to come in and talk to them to combat this.
I do not know whether they brought anyone in for One Tamriel, or Homestead, but in the case of the latter, if they did not do that, they should have done that. Homestead is a massive amount of investment, and I still feel that it missed the mark. It is too niche for the amount of effort they put into it.
If ZOS were in the early stages of design and were bringing in players for stuff that we will not see for a year, then I would be more concerned about who they were bringing in.
Why not pull from the forum? I am sure they do. The problem with the forum is that the people who are making suggestions are doing it out of context. They cannot know whether the suggestion they are making is the right thing to do, or even possible. This means that some suggestions, while sounding right, might be wide of the mark. Since the popularity of a comment or suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with how valid the suggestion is, it is inevitable that a high profile popular suggestion will not be used.StackonClown wrote: »A LOT of people complained about Crown crates, including some of the so called 'famous streamers' - will the people visiting Zeni speak up about the 'money grab' or keep their peace for fear of 'not being invited next time'...
They can speak up, if they want, but I don't think that ZOS is the originator of the Crown Crates. The complaint would need to be directed at the people who are. Those people probably won't be at an event like this, although, it is possible that they might make a cameo.StackonClown wrote: »How about all the complaining about RNG ??
This is a more appropriate comment for a venue like this. ZOS could have changed that, if they wanted to. That they did not (yet) speaks as loudly as those who want it changed. I, for one, would be interested in hearing more about what ZOS thinks.StackonClown wrote: »To me this whole thing seems to be a mix of 2nd tier marketing by buddying up with known players (very good players at that) that have a profile and also buying their silence at least for a while.
Dont bite the hand that feeds you - come to mind ?
To me, this is an end-stage play test focus group for development purposes.
Interesting comments - thanks for your thoughts.. although I have a somewhat different stance on some of these points, I think your observations may not be far off the mark..0 -
bitels✭✭✭✭
Of course in the end its ZoS that decide what will they do with a feedback they recive. Will they change anything or not.StackonClown wrote: »
Have to disagree, i already once mentioned it in this topic but i could repeat:StackonClown wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »
Again, the best players actually work for Zeni - they dont really need any <insert player/streamer here> to show them something that they 'didnt work out yet' - they *wrote the game* LOLBest example- Woeler video about frost tanking, where he pointed out a basic problems with whole concept, that could be easily fixed on the earlier stages, but at that point it was already to late to rework whole thing, so now we are stucked with it for at least next 4 month
Yeah I remember reading this now - Ok, so what do we expect will happen ? Once Deltia and the gang are there, will they ask Zeni: 'please listen to people like Woeler in future' ? As we have been saying all along, even if Woeler sees it as a flaw, either Zeni doesnt or doesnt care, or doesnt want to for other reasons fix it ?
Isn't dropping 'premium' gear in training/prosperous essentially a flaw ?
Will Zeni fix it - Noooooo! They WANT you to have a crap roll chance - They WANT you to run VMA 500 times
This is their business model - how do you fix this flaw?
But I just think that feedback from experience players is usefull, they might have ideas that ZOS doesnt even think about, or pick up flaws that developers didnt saw.
Just dont get why so many ppl see it as such horrible thing. It isnt end of ESO that developers decides to first test thing with closed group of players before realesing it for open test in PTS1 -
VelociousLegend✭✭✭CyrusArya wrote:My point is that the opinions of a knowledgeable minority are more valuable than the opinions of an ignorant majority.
Direct and digestible feedback from a knowledgeable and experienced group of players.willlienellson wrote:"ZOS gave away $1 million about a year ago to whoever - couldn't they have hired like 10 people with that to 'playtest' 24/7 to help resolve some of these issues.."
The whole post is brilliant, but this line is especially on point.
People already complain that ZOS employees don't play the game at a high level or understand the daily struggles. So your resolution is to add more QA members to the development team?
I still fail to see the logic of why sending experienced and knowledgeable players to a closed beta test of sorts is bad. Out of fear that those chosen will find more 'secret cheats'? That they'll just want to buff their favorite class? Come on.1 -
willlienellson✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I do find it interesting how you have lowered your comments to name calling such as below.willlienellson wrote: »Of course the streamers are getting defended. The number of hero-worshiping fanboys who....blaa blaa blaaaaa
You are beyond obtuse. If you're trolling....it's like method acting quality.
Compare what I wrote to what I quoted. Notice any similarities? I'm making fun of his insults.
He wrote, "Of course you got a lot of agrees. The number of whining baddies who"
Please go away. Pretty Please. You are posting to me like 10 times a day. I ignore most of them, but it's a constant barrage of this obtuse nonsense where all you do is critique my behavior with no consideration to context. It was no different in a very pro-Zos thread a week ago.
I think that's just your gig here, because I've noticed....it's not just me that seems to be trying to ignore you. Most of your posts to everyone just ignore context and just hang alone out in the air like a bad smell.
This is what I mean. Who are you talking to here? You only quoted me. You only used my @name. Why is it written like you're having a conversation with a 3rd person?Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Oh, I seriously doubt @willlienellson will answer the question I presented this morning to attempt to justify his comments here. I eiok be interesting to see him try.
So, no. I'm not going to answer it. I doubt I even read it.
I know it's late in the year for a resolution, but for 2017 I'm going to try not to read another post you write.
So, I can't stop you, but it would be really nice if your unsolicited commentary to me, about me (which is weird) could be less frequent.
Edited by willlienellson on 9 February 2017 15:182 -
willlienellson✭✭✭✭✭
And in the PTS everyone was screaming that Homestead missed the mark, while Deltia was "geeking out" over housing on his youtube. His words. Not mine.lordrichter wrote: »I do not know whether they brought anyone in for One Tamriel, or Homestead, but in the case of the latter, if they did not do that, they should have done that. Homestead is a massive amount of investment, and I still feel that it missed the mark. It is too niche for the amount of effort they put into it.
And almost all the feedback on the PTS was ignored....and has now been mirrored as complaint threads by the general player base. And now Deltia is at Zos HQ helping form the direction of future content
Edited by willlienellson on 9 February 2017 15:272 -
Riga_Mortis✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.
But that's exactly what's at hand here:
1) how more valuable than pages after pages of feedback threads are those exceptional players' opinions?
2) why should ZOS pay heed to these opinions rather than the feedback threads, which ZOS consistently ignore?
If I weren't the ever-optimist, I'd say that ZOS is doing nothing else than cleverly turning potentially critical prominent members of the players' "community" into docile instruments of the back-stabbing, money-grabbing operation that Morrowind is.
"Morrowind. Tested and balanced by Alcast, Fengrush, Deltia and Sypher. Out June 2017 for only $49.99."
Better then:
Morrowind. Tested and balanced by average dudes who don't know *** about the game. Out June 2017 for only $49.99
You keep saying the average dude dosnt know **** about the game, do you not see whats wrong with what youre saying and especially how youre saying it.
XBOX 1X
GT - TAGNUTZ2 -
Balamoor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just want to point out to folks there is an ignore feature on the forums, if there is any comments from anyone you don't wish to see or you feel is bothering you.
Also honestly this thread has devolved into:
"I know you are but what am I?" childishness, think of the starving vampric marsupials in Africa...what would they say if they saw you squabbling like this?0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »willlienellson wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I do find it interesting how you have lowered your comments to name calling such as below.willlienellson wrote: »Of course the streamers are getting defended. The number of hero-worshiping fanboys who....blaa blaa blaaaaa
You are beyond obtuse. If you're trolling....it's like method acting quality.
Compare what I wrote to what I quoted. Notice any similarities? I'm making fun of his insults.
He wrote, "Of course you got a lot of agrees. The number of whining baddies who"
Please go away. Pretty Please. You are posting to me like 10 times a day. I ignore most of them, but it's a constant barrage of this obtuse nonsense where all you do is critique my behavior with no consideration to context. It was no different in a very pro-Zos thread a week ago.
I think that's just your gig here, because I've noticed....it's not just me that seems to be trying to ignore you. Most of your posts to everyone just ignore context and just hang alone out in the air like a bad smell.
This is what I mean. Who are you talking to here? You only quoted me. You only used my @name. Why is it written like you're having a conversation with a 3rd person.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Oh, I seriously doubt @willlienellson will answer the question I presented this morning to attempt to justify his comments here. I eiok be interesting to see him try.
So, no. I'm not going to answer it. I didn't read it, or Thank God - if I did, I blocked it out of my memory.
I know it's late in the year for a resolution, but for 2017 I'm going to try not to read another post you write.
So, I can't stop you, but it would be really nice if your unsolicited commentary to me, about me (which is weird) could be less frequent.
@willlienellson
Once again I find it laughable you edit out most of what you quoted instead of attempting to reply to the part dealing with your message and continue to bash the messenger vs talking to the points made because you don't have a real reply. .
Talk about obtuse. Talk about obtuse. Lol
Again. You still refuse to answer the question I posed this morning. If you cannot answer that then it seems you have zero basis for anything you said in the OP and are merely salty and raging in this thread. Quote that. Lol
Still, thx for the laughs. Lmao.
if you have not noticed. He is picking and choosing what points to respond to in order to better suit what he is trying to say. He then tries to spin it another way to change the subject/point originally commented to make the person look bad and discredit them rather than actually posting any substance. It is very typical for forum people to do this. it is very laughable.2 -
Keras✭✭I'm seriously going crazy about the amount of people who don't want to understand willienellson's point.
How can people, after 16 fu**ing pages, still think he wants to be invitied himself, or to have certain other people be heard than those who have been invited?!
It's about ZoS inviting popular streamers and spending stacks of money for bad marketing, instead of listening to the many tools for player feedback that are used for tons of constructive criticism on a daily basis! He just pointed to the hypocrisy on part of ZoS and the fact that this symbiosis between popular streamers and ZoS is unhealthy for the broad player base.
Don't berate people on "reading comprehension" if you couldn't bother to understand the first fu**ing post of this thread!5 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Let's be real, let's say that there were 1 extremely good player, and a lot of decent players, and that extremely good player provides you evidence statistics and actual numbers, while the other provide you only opinion. Who are you gonna take more seriously? If you say the average dude, then you are lying.Riga_Mortis wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.
But that's exactly what's at hand here:
1) how more valuable than pages after pages of feedback threads are those exceptional players' opinions?
2) why should ZOS pay heed to these opinions rather than the feedback threads, which ZOS consistently ignore?
If I weren't the ever-optimist, I'd say that ZOS is doing nothing else than cleverly turning potentially critical prominent members of the players' "community" into docile instruments of the back-stabbing, money-grabbing operation that Morrowind is.
"Morrowind. Tested and balanced by Alcast, Fengrush, Deltia and Sypher. Out June 2017 for only $49.99."
Better then:
Morrowind. Tested and balanced by average dudes who don't know *** about the game. Out June 2017 for only $49.99
You keep saying the average dude dosnt know **** about the game, do you not see whats wrong with what youre saying and especially how youre saying it.1 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭willlienellson wrote: »
You start a post with an insult and then claim when someone doesn't read the rest of it that means you win the argument.
Yeah, that makes sense. You win. Take you're trophy and be on your way.
@willlienellson
I Didn't post that as an insult, I posted it as a very valid explanation for why you got so many agrees from a certain class of players. Don't take their approval as affirmation that your points are valid..
Ill tell you whats insulting man. To imply that good players don't understand balance cus they never fight other good players. How would you even know that? You saw some streamer not fight a buddy? Or you saw someone stand and watch their friend 1vX instead of jumping to the aid of pugs? So you extrapolate that to mean no one is competing against each other in the upper tiers? Ridiculous.
But you don't stop there. You extend your ill-concieved conclusions to the extent that all good players wanna do is farm pugs and have no idea what it feels like to fight other top tier builds. Thinking like that is very obnoxious when many such people are driven by a sense of competition and to improve and push their characters to the limits. That doesn't come from farming pugs, that comes from winning and losing and learning from your peers.
At least try to understand why people find issue with your claims instead of getting so damn defensive.
P.S. Its really funny you should talk about trophies when its your lot that want trophies for participating.
2 -
Riga_Mortis✭✭✭✭✭
Let's be real, let's say that there were 1 extremely good player, and a lot of decent players, and that extremely good player provides you evidence statistics and actual numbers, while the other provide you only opinion. Who are you gonna take more seriously? If you say the average dude, then you are lying.Riga_Mortis wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.
But that's exactly what's at hand here:
1) how more valuable than pages after pages of feedback threads are those exceptional players' opinions?
2) why should ZOS pay heed to these opinions rather than the feedback threads, which ZOS consistently ignore?
If I weren't the ever-optimist, I'd say that ZOS is doing nothing else than cleverly turning potentially critical prominent members of the players' "community" into docile instruments of the back-stabbing, money-grabbing operation that Morrowind is.
"Morrowind. Tested and balanced by Alcast, Fengrush, Deltia and Sypher. Out June 2017 for only $49.99."
Better then:
Morrowind. Tested and balanced by average dudes who don't know *** about the game. Out June 2017 for only $49.99
You keep saying the average dude dosnt know **** about the game, do you not see whats wrong with what youre saying and especially how youre saying it.
Not the point im making, im saying that you saying the average guy doesnt know ***** about this game is not true in the slightest.
XBOX 1X
GT - TAGNUTZ1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm seriously going crazy about the amount of people who don't want to understand willienellson's point.
How can people, after 16 fu**ing pages, still think he wants to be invitied himself, or to have certain other people be heard than those who have been invited?!
It's about ZoS inviting popular streamers and spending stacks of money for bad marketing, instead of listening to the many tools for player feedback that are used for tons of constructive criticism on a daily basis! He just pointed to the hypocrisy on part of ZoS and the fact that this symbiosis between popular streamers and ZoS is unhealthy for the broad player base.
Don't berate people on "reading comprehension" if you couldn't bother to understand the first fu**ing post of this thread!
@Keras
I think you miss the larger point that @willlienellson has caused this thread to devolve by editing out the substance of any post he quoted suit his he wants to respond which is usually an attempt to put down the other person.
It's willie that chooses to avoid the discussion in this thread with such classic lines as calling those that disagree with him streamer fanboys to avoid actually discussing the reply or topic.Edited by idk on 9 February 2017 16:122 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Riga_Mortis wrote: »
Let's be real, let's say that there were 1 extremely good player, and a lot of decent players, and that extremely good player provides you evidence statistics and actual numbers, while the other provide you only opinion. Who are you gonna take more seriously? If you say the average dude, then you are lying.Riga_Mortis wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.
But that's exactly what's at hand here:
1) how more valuable than pages after pages of feedback threads are those exceptional players' opinions?
2) why should ZOS pay heed to these opinions rather than the feedback threads, which ZOS consistently ignore?
If I weren't the ever-optimist, I'd say that ZOS is doing nothing else than cleverly turning potentially critical prominent members of the players' "community" into docile instruments of the back-stabbing, money-grabbing operation that Morrowind is.
"Morrowind. Tested and balanced by Alcast, Fengrush, Deltia and Sypher. Out June 2017 for only $49.99."
Better then:
Morrowind. Tested and balanced by average dudes who don't know *** about the game. Out June 2017 for only $49.99
You keep saying the average dude dosnt know **** about the game, do you not see whats wrong with what youre saying and especially how youre saying it.
Not the point im making, im saying that you saying the average guy doesnt know ***** about this game is not true in the slightest.
My mistake then for having exaggerated a little bit, let's say that the average dude knows the basics, and sometimes not even that, then you have some who are a little bit more knowledgeable, and then you have the best of the best.
Keep in mind that i exaggerated a little bit for comedical value.1 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Let's be real, let's say that there were 1 extremely good player, and a lot of decent players, and that extremely good player provides you evidence statistics and actual numbers, while the other provide you only opinion. Who are you gonna take more seriously? If you say the average dude, then you are lying.
I would take the opinions. And I'm not lying.
I don't need anyone to provide actual numbers / stats because I already have that ! I'm the guy who designed and coded the thing, remember ?
An opinion is NOT an "imprecise truth", it is a subjective view on something, the result of the interaction between that "something" and "someone".
But I would take *everyone*"s opinion, including the opinion of the 1 guy at the top.
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Riga_Mortis✭✭✭✭✭Riga_Mortis wrote: »
Let's be real, let's say that there were 1 extremely good player, and a lot of decent players, and that extremely good player provides you evidence statistics and actual numbers, while the other provide you only opinion. Who are you gonna take more seriously? If you say the average dude, then you are lying.Riga_Mortis wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.
But that's exactly what's at hand here:
1) how more valuable than pages after pages of feedback threads are those exceptional players' opinions?
2) why should ZOS pay heed to these opinions rather than the feedback threads, which ZOS consistently ignore?
If I weren't the ever-optimist, I'd say that ZOS is doing nothing else than cleverly turning potentially critical prominent members of the players' "community" into docile instruments of the back-stabbing, money-grabbing operation that Morrowind is.
"Morrowind. Tested and balanced by Alcast, Fengrush, Deltia and Sypher. Out June 2017 for only $49.99."
Better then:
Morrowind. Tested and balanced by average dudes who don't know *** about the game. Out June 2017 for only $49.99
You keep saying the average dude dosnt know **** about the game, do you not see whats wrong with what youre saying and especially how youre saying it.
Not the point im making, im saying that you saying the average guy doesnt know ***** about this game is not true in the slightest.
My mistake then for having exaggerated a little bit, let's say that the average dude knows the basics, and sometimes not even that, then you have some who are a little bit more knowledgeable, and then you have the best of the best.
Keep in mind that i exaggerated a little bit for comedical value.
Its all good, also gave you an awesome as Ive replied to quite a few of your posts and I dont want you to think its anything against you why I keep replying. Sometimes I just got to stick up for the average guy.
XBOX 1X
GT - TAGNUTZ0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Let's be real, let's say that there were 1 extremely good player, and a lot of decent players, and that extremely good player provides you evidence statistics and actual numbers, while the other provide you only opinion. Who are you gonna take more seriously? If you say the average dude, then you are lying.
I would take the opinions. And I'm not lying.
I don't need anyone to provide actual numbers / stats because I already have that ! I'm the guy who designed and coded the thing, remember ?
An opinion is NOT an "imprecise truth", it is a subjective view on something, the result of the interaction between that "something" and "someone".
But I would take *everyone*"s opinion, including the opinion of the 1 guy at the top.
Sorry then, i'm just different, i only take opinions that are backed up by facts, statistics and evidence. That doesn't necessarily mean that it has to come from a streamer or a youtuber, but i will not just take any opinions.
Let's say that if you provide me evidence, then i'm gonna believe you, even if you are not a streamer or a youtuber. But let's be real here, how many times have you received a well explained and thoughtful opinion about a certain build from an average player? most opinions i got were something like this: use wrecking blow because it hits hard. I'm not gonna take that advice, and i will instead look for a better explained one/0 -
Keras✭✭@Giles.floydub17_ESO
"Discussion" is an over the top euphemism for what's going on here. Up until now, almost everyone who really wrote against him either didn't understand his point or tried to "discuss" solely for the pleasure of a salty, needless debate.
To again unwrap that "streamer fanboys" thing actually disqualifies you, considering @willlienellson even bothered to explain his "insult":willlienellson wrote: »Compare what I wrote to what I quoted. Notice any similarities? I'm making fun of his insults.
He wrote, "Of course you got a lot of agrees. The number of whining baddies who"
However, I would still like to know what you meant with your question he didn't answer. This one?Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So, to @willlienellson I ask what have you done to demonstrate your worthiness to be part of the testing or even to have an understanding of who should be involved in the testing. All I have seen you contribute is salty threads to the forums that provide little value.
If yes, you just prove my point...1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Let's be real, let's say that there were 1 extremely good player, and a lot of decent players, and that extremely good player provides you evidence statistics and actual numbers, while the other provide you only opinion. Who are you gonna take more seriously? If you say the average dude, then you are lying.
I would take the opinions. And I'm not lying.
I don't need anyone to provide actual numbers / stats because I already have that ! I'm the guy who designed and coded the thing, remember ?
An opinion is NOT an "imprecise truth", it is a subjective view on something, the result of the interaction between that "something" and "someone".
But I would take *everyone*"s opinion, including the opinion of the 1 guy at the top.
Yes and Zos will open testing to everyone. It will be open on PTS for the normal 5 weeks.
For now they are looking for feedback in the initial design of the battlegrounds based on who they invited. The feedback is fairly specific in dealing with other overall design. It's certainly not for marketing since the testers cannot discuss it for months.
I will admit that I'm not that guy who can provide them the information needed at this point in developement. Can I say something worthy, maybe but not to the deput Zos wants right now. The same can be said of know for of us that have posted in his thread and in the forums as a whole.
Willie and others can be if the oppinion that streamers should not have been included for whatever opinions they have and that's fine. I'm of the oppinion I'd rather 20 knowledgeable and capable players like @deltia @Alcast @FENGRUSH involved in this early testing than 100 of me or 1000 willies.
I'd like it done well.0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭One last thing, the reason why i seem to keep defending these streamers, youtubers etc.. is because i actually learned something from them, when i joined this game about a year ago i didn't know much of course, but i wanted to become a better player, so the day later i searched on the web for some information, and the first channel i saw was deltia's channel, i got some addons, and at endgame i was doing about 10-15 k dps thanks to him, there are some people who gets like 5 k, and that was just from listening, then as i continued to watch i learned more and more stuff, so i learned animation cancelling, how to burst properly, how to make a setup, etc... after deltia i saw fengrush, sypher, alcast and gilliamtherogue, now thanks to all the things i learned from them i can do about 40 to 50 k dps in optimal situations, with every class.
This is why i say that i prefer letting them do the balance compared to the average joe.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Giles.floydub17_ESO
"Discussion" is an over the top euphemism for what's going on here. Up until now, almost everyone who really wrote against him either didn't understand his point or tried to "discuss" solely for the pleasure of a salty, needless debate.
To again unwrap that "streamer fanboys" thing actually disqualifies you, considering @willlienellson even bothered to explain his "insult":willlienellson wrote: »Compare what I wrote to what I quoted. Notice any similarities? I'm making fun of his insults.
He wrote, "Of course you got a lot of agrees. The number of whining baddies who"
However, I would still like to know what you meant with your question he didn't answer. This one?Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So, to @willlienellson I ask what have you done to demonstrate your worthiness to be part of the testing or even to have an understanding of who should be involved in the testing. All I have seen you contribute is salty threads to the forums that provide little value.
If yes, you just prove my point...
I am so sad to see I'm "disqualified" because I missed a follow up post Wilkie may have used to clear up is traditional slaty means he used to reply to someone. It's so sad to be disqualified.
Going back to the OP it's a rage post without any focus. Really sets the tone in the first paragraph that it's now f worth readying further, getting into cheats and such really is absurd how broad he does with the OP that it's mind numbing.
He makes it sound like this game is balanced around the top players which he seems to base in the previous aspects of the rage post and nothing sound or solid.
Willlie clearly takes issue with the fact some top players were invited to do some testing for which willie doesn't provide who he thinks is actually qualified to test the new developement which would lead anyone to think Wilkie just might think he's qualified.
Granted, some may look at the OP in a limited manner and get lost in the wall of text. Very understandable.
She back to your question about mine. Yes and I'm sure it speaks volumes above it he I've seen what Willie has said and has of course his Willie has taken most posts he's quoted out of context but editing out what's inconvenient for his reply. It's honestly classic Willie.0 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorry then, i'm just different, i only take opinions that are backed up by facts, statistics and evidence. That doesn't necessarily mean that it has to come from a streamer or a youtuber, but i will not just take any opinions.
Let's say that if you provide me evidence, then i'm gonna believe you, even if you are not a streamer or a youtuber. But let's be real here, how many times have you received a well explained and thoughtful opinion about a certain build from an average player? most opinions i got were something like this: use wrecking blow because it hits hard. I'm not gonna take that advice, and i will instead look for a better explained one/
We disagree about semantics here. You seem to happily mix up facts, opinions, advice and belief.
A fact is a fact. It may be true or false, backed up or not by evidence, and depending on those, you'll believe or not believe it.
An opinion is not something you believe in , it's something you share or not, something you agree or disagree with.
Player 1 : "Skill A should be nerved" (Opinion) because of number X and number Y (facts backing up opinion)
Player 2 : "Skill A should be buffed" (Opinion) because of number W and number Z (other facts backing up opinion).
Player 3 : "Skill A should be buffed" (Opinion) because number X and Y as presented by player 1 are wrong (disbelief in facts)
etc etc.
80% of ESO tutorials and build-providers on the internet don't explain the strategy and numbers behind their builds. They post a combination of skill, gear and CP, then videos and parses, and say : "See ? That's currently BiS". No real explanation, no details. Probably partly because they don't know how to explain, probably also because they know that most people just want to copy/paste and don't want to understand anything.
Actually the best advice and explanation givers I've met in the game are slightly above-average players who have taken the time to study, decipher and understand the tutorials and builds provided by the top players. But not the top players themselves.
Top players are primarily players. Streamers are primarily entertainers. Tutorial and build authors are primarily teachers. Theorycrafters are primarily analysts. Some people happen to have several of these qualities but in this thread we throw all of them into one pot.
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willlienellson✭✭✭✭✭
I can appreciate that. I really can. And I've never tried to suggest that those guys don't provide a service. It's just kind of beside my point.One last thing, the reason why i seem to keep defending these streamers, youtubers etc.. is because i actually learned something from them, when i joined this game about a year ago i didn't know much of course, but i wanted to become a better player.......
When I first started investing and trading I read some books by a guy that runs a hedge fund. I learned tons, became a huge fan, and certainly owe some degree of my success to his lessons.
That doesn't mean I want him in DC helping to write finance law. You know what I mean?0 -
bowmanz607✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm seriously going crazy about the amount of people who don't want to understand willienellson's point.
How can people, after 16 fu**ing pages, still think he wants to be invitied himself, or to have certain other people be heard than those who have been invited?!
It's about ZoS inviting popular streamers and spending stacks of money for bad marketing, instead of listening to the many tools for player feedback that are used for tons of constructive criticism on a daily basis! He just pointed to the hypocrisy on part of ZoS and the fact that this symbiosis between popular streamers and ZoS is unhealthy for the broad player base.
Don't berate people on "reading comprehension" if you couldn't bother to understand the first fu**ing post of this thread!
what part dont you understand. You are limiting your response to those who say "your jealous" and how they are wrong. What about all the other posts that discuss the topic. As a for instance, the fact that the players invited have a huge knowledge base of the game and are essentially beta testers for new content. Or what about the fact that more then just popular streamers are invited, you just dont hear about them b/c they didnt get on a stream and say they were their.
There are many more points that have been made, but the problem is people like you and op who pick and choose what they respond to so they can further their cause of yelling for no real reason.
I say again, it is likely they are doing with them what they do for pts. Hey guys go test stuff and find bugs and exploits. It is not much of a forum to make changes to what the devs did, but to fix what they did. Something people dont seem to understand. Just as the players were invited to find bugs, exploits etc. This update requires more testing b/c it is essentially a new game launch. It is huge and their are a lot of moving parts.0
This discussion has been closed.