WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

hamgatan

willlienellson wrote: »

Hammy01 wrote: »

so if those invited have an uncontrollable excitement and eagerness to play non stop then we know the upcoming content might be pretty good.

See my reply somewhere in the last 2 pages about Deltia's enthusiasm over Homestead and how it contrasts with most player feedback.

Deltia is always right 100% of the time...

.... and DC do not zerg...

... hashtag #alternativefacts

I would take that enthusiasm with a pinch of salt. Deltia has been known to be wrong in the past.. ive called him out on inadequate or misinformation before..

Celas_Dranacea

I more or less trust these streamers to represent my interests as a pvper who wants class balance. I don't agree with all of their attitudes/positions on certain things but overall they seem like fine people who do a lot of research and hear a lot from the community. I appreciate all of em.

My instinct is that their primary concern this week has been to do a good job in the things their testing, not somehow exploit the average player - after all they're gonna come back and have to face the community if future balance updates suck

And yes, in addition to feedback it is also about advertising and keeping them happy as streamers who promote the game. Who cares? Super normal business stuff.

Celas_Dranacea

Also I constantly here ZOS referencing the data they collect about combat stats, morph bias, etc... and have personally witnessed a lot of changes based on various forms of feedback in game and on the forums so I'm super happy that they are taking time to get this additional form of feedback.

idk

willlienellson wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Wrong again. "Meta" builds for PvP are rarely using VMA/DSA weapons now since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set as it yields better resource management & better damage. The Master's Bow/Staves do find their way into specific builds, but they are most certainly not Meta, VMA weapons even less so now.

now. right.
idgaf what is being used this week.

I was talking to a different person, specific to their comment, about the percentage of players that would be involved in BOTH end game raiding and pvp, one to serve the other. You're trying to turn this point into a conversation with you, when it was not.

You want to sidetrack by saying, "Nobody is doing that RIGHT NOW". Okay, but they were. And they probably will later. sheesh.

To the point you said you were replying to, a high number of end game raiders do PvP. All tanks and healers must have AvA skills, most importantly War Horn. Serious stam DPS (though not many competitively raid stam ATM) kinda need Vigor and some other dps builds use AvA skills as well. A good number have Emperor on at least one character.

Some heavy PvP players are also serious raiders including many you seem to not like being invited to Zos, but also many others. Basically, the more serious someone is about their ESO game the more they do.

willlienellson wrote: »

since most people are opting for two 5 piece sets & Monster Set

Right. Cause everyone is running 12 pieces. Almost nobody runs 2H or staff in Cyrodiil. face/palm

Not entirely true. Mag sorcs pretty much have to run staves, they have little to use that would work well not running staves. There are good templars, NB and DK builds with staves. Ofc some have staves on one bar and something else on the other, especially 1H&S.

There are a number of good builds across the board for PvP though PvE magika users mostly use staves. Only one class uses swords for good dps PvE wise but often have a staff on the other bar.

Dredlord

willlienellson wrote: »

jpeter88 wrote: »

sypher hands down knows PvP

Furthermore, suggesting that Sypher should have extra influence with Zos' balancing because he is great at pvp is ludicrous. It's like suggesting whoever hits the most home runs should get invited to MLB headquarters to make the rules for next season.

This absolutely right and gw2 proved this beyond a doubt when they hired one of the best gw players to develop gw2.

Player skill =/= good developer

Elsonso

Dredlord wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

jpeter88 wrote: »

sypher hands down knows PvP

Furthermore, suggesting that Sypher should have extra influence with Zos' balancing because he is great at pvp is ludicrous. It's like suggesting whoever hits the most home runs should get invited to MLB headquarters to make the rules for next season.

This absolutely right and gw2 proved this beyond a doubt when they hired one of the best gw players to develop gw2.

Player skill =/= good developer

And yet, when it comes to the ZOS developers, we seem to hear a different story. They don't play their own game. They aren't good at playing the game. The implication often being that they should not be developing it because they aren't good at playing it.

These people are not traveling to ZOS HQ because they are good developers. They aren't going there to be developers, at all. They are going there to be players.

Edit: Don't forget that players that do theory crafting are doing a player activity, not a developer activity.

Isellskooma

Karius_Imalthar wrote: »

I can't speak on everything the OP wrote but I do feel that a lot of companies like ZOS listen to the streamers who do not speak for average players and don't necessarily have the same experiences/frustrations as average players.

That good that they're starting to listen to streamers, average/casual players have done nothing but ruin this game.

cbaudersub17_ESO

Isellskooma wrote: »

That good that they're starting to listen to streamers, average/casual players have done nothing but ruin this game.

When was the summit with the average/casual players?

cbaudersub17_ESO

Access does bring opportunity for influence. If this is more than a marketing ploy, I would hope sources for developmental feedback would be broad and inclusive. Answering questions like ‘who plays our game?’ and ‘who do we want playing our game?’ would seem to be important when digesting said feedback.

After all, I personally would not limit myself to feedback from professional racecar drivers on my design for a family car. Point of fact, I might ignore their feedback on my grocery-getter…but I might take a picture with them in it for later release.

leepalmer95

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Isellskooma wrote: »

That good that they're starting to listen to streamers, average/casual players have done nothing but ruin this game.

When was the summit with the average/casual players?

This forum is basically full of average/ casual players.

Some of the thread here amuse me.

hamgatan

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

I more or less trust these streamers to represent my interests as a pvper who wants class balance.

class balance isn't even the major issue bugging PvP. before they sort that, they need to sort alliance imbalance before even tampering with that.

it doesn't matter how OP your build is, if you are getting steamrolled by a 40 player Zerg you are not going to survive.. plain and simple. the map in TF was a clear example of the imbalance last night - nothing but DC zergs everywhere, and very few players of other alliances. You could be a former Emp, but that doesn't make a difference if 40 mindless aoe spamming zerglings are mashing keys. there needs to be a hard cap on the amount of players allowed in contrast to other alliances.

currently its a static value that defines x amount of players of each alliance can access the campaign. that value needs to change and be a constantly calculated variable based on if statements.. for example as a logical workflow

action: OnCampaignJoinRequest
-> Are there available slots on static max server capacity? (IF Statement 1) ->
NO? - Join Queue
YES? (If Statement 2, if statement 1 is "true") THEN,
IF Current Alliance = DC then Calculate variable "Mean" [var2 (EP Player Count) + var3 (AD Player Count) / 2 = var4 (Resultant Population currently).
IF var CurrentAlliancePopulation = > var4 + 10% THEN
Join Queue.
IF var CurrentAlliancePopulation = < var4 + 10% THEN
AllowAccess

What that would do hopefully is have a constantly variable restriction on the amount of players that can join a campaign to no more than 10% of the mean of players of the other two alliances combined, so if theres 150 AD Players on, and 130 EP Players on, that would mean there could be no more than 154 DC on at any one time and players will queue like they do currently with the static values.

Yes there will still be Zergs, but other alliances will at least have a fighting chance and not be steamrolled by over-imbalances because 90% of a server at any one time is one alliance.

And also it will curtail the cheating for Emp thats been going on (i.e. the paid "real world dollars" services that are out there - i'm not going into detail about that because of T.O.S).

Dredlord

lordrichter wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

jpeter88 wrote: »

sypher hands down knows PvP

Furthermore, suggesting that Sypher should have extra influence with Zos' balancing because he is great at pvp is ludicrous. It's like suggesting whoever hits the most home runs should get invited to MLB headquarters to make the rules for next season.

This absolutely right and gw2 proved this beyond a doubt when they hired one of the best gw players to develop gw2.

Player skill =/= good developer

And yet, when it comes to the ZOS developers, we seem to hear a different story. They don't play their own game. They aren't good at playing the game. The implication often being that they should not be developing it because they aren't good at playing it.

These people are not traveling to ZOS HQ because they are good developers. They aren't going there to be developers, at all. They are going there to be players.

Edit: Don't forget that players that do theory crafting are doing a player activity, not a developer activity.

Your edit is so ignorant it's surprising, theory crafting is first and foremost a developer activity, without it there would be no game systems to even code.

Player theorycrafting merely tries to guess how their build will interact with those systems.

And to be clear those going to visit ZOS are going there to be advertising for the game. That is why they chose who they did...

thankyourat

So what I'm getting from this thread is that some players are scared streamers will get rid of some of the casual friendly mechanics and actually make the game more skill base thus making it to where casual players won't be able to complete content or compete in PvP anymore. But wouldn't that be a good thing there should be more separation between good and average players. And even playing casually eventually you will be able to compete the content, honestly that sounds better for everyone it would add a sense of accomplishment to the game that's been missing for awhile now.

Balamoor

leepalmer95 wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Isellskooma wrote: »

That good that they're starting to listen to streamers, average/casual players have done nothing but ruin this game.

When was the summit with the average/casual players?

This forum is basically full of average/ casual players.

Some of the thread here amuse me.

So average/casual players constantly spew toxic opinionated crap and stomp their feet when they don't feel constantly validated?

PLEASE TEACH ME NOT TO BE CASUAL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elsonso

Dredlord wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Edit: Don't forget that players that do theory crafting are doing a player activity, not a developer activity.

Your edit is so ignorant it's surprising, theory crafting is first and foremost a developer activity, without it there would be no game systems to even code.

Player theorycrafting merely tries to guess how their build will interact with those systems.

On this, you could not have agreed with me more. Player theory crafting is reactionary, and those who are good at it are a valuable focus group resource, when they can do it quickly and under pressure. My emphasis on the player nature of what they do is intended to highlight the fact that these people are going to ZOS as players, not developers.

cbaudersub17_ESO

leepalmer95 wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Isellskooma wrote: »

That good that they're starting to listen to streamers, average/casual players have done nothing but ruin this game.

When was the summit with the average/casual players?

This forum is basically full of average/ casual players.

Some of the thread here amuse me.

I can type stuff too.

I like pie.

DigitalShibby

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Oooh the "It's ok because capitalism" argument. I love that one! My turn!

In 1984, the company Bayer realized that a lot of their blood products, (Factor VIII and IX anti-hemophiliac compounds), were contaminated with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). However, the financial investment in the product was considered too high to destroy the inventory. So Bayer misrepresented the results of its own research and sold the contaminated Blood Products to overseas markets in Asia and Latin America without the precaution of heat treating the product recommended for eliminating the risk. As a consequence, hemophiliacs who infused the HIV-contaminated products tested positive for HIV and developed AIDS.

It's just a business people, relax!

Sypher

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Half the people here don't even stream or do YouTube.

DigitalShibby

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Oooh the "It's ok because capitalism" argument. I love that one! My turn!

In 1984, the company Bayer realized that a lot of their blood products, (Factor VIII and IX anti-hemophiliac compounds), were contaminated with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). However, the financial investment in the product was considered too high to destroy the inventory. So Bayer misrepresented the results of its own research and sold the contaminated Blood Products to overseas markets in Asia and Latin America without the precaution of heat treating the product recommended for eliminating the risk. As a consequence, hemophiliacs who infused the HIV-contaminated products tested positive for HIV and developed AIDS.

It's just a business people, relax!

You're upset because a gaming company asked gamers who have followers to come play test the game they are already promoting on their YouTube channels?

Play testing happens all the time and giving feedback to the game company is part of the whole "play testing" process. They picked people who have YouTube channels with traffic so they can then use that channel to further promote the discussion and hype about the game.. it's honestly not a big deal.

Thanks for the Bayer info tho. Lol

MissBizz

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Oooh the "It's ok because capitalism" argument. I love that one! My turn!

In 1984, the company Bayer realized that a lot of their blood products, (Factor VIII and IX anti-hemophiliac compounds), were contaminated with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). However, the financial investment in the product was considered too high to destroy the inventory. So Bayer misrepresented the results of its own research and sold the contaminated Blood Products to overseas markets in Asia and Latin America without the precaution of heat treating the product recommended for eliminating the risk. As a consequence, hemophiliacs who infused the HIV-contaminated products tested positive for HIV and developed AIDS.

It's just a business people, relax!

A video game and blood used to save someone's life that gives them a life threatening illness are not on the same level. At. All.

DigitalShibby

Sypher wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Half the people here don't even stream or do YouTube.

Good to know. The only people I heard about attending were YouTubers. Thanks for the info.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

MissBizz wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Oooh the "It's ok because capitalism" argument. I love that one! My turn!

In 1984, the company Bayer realized that a lot of their blood products, (Factor VIII and IX anti-hemophiliac compounds), were contaminated with human immunodeficiency virus (HIV). However, the financial investment in the product was considered too high to destroy the inventory. So Bayer misrepresented the results of its own research and sold the contaminated Blood Products to overseas markets in Asia and Latin America without the precaution of heat treating the product recommended for eliminating the risk. As a consequence, hemophiliacs who infused the HIV-contaminated products tested positive for HIV and developed AIDS.

It's just a business people, relax!

A video game and blood used to save someone's life that gives them a life threatening illness are not on the same level. At. All.

You are completely right, and I am not against this meeting, though I do think ZOS should be more open about who they meet with and why. However, I am sick of the capitalism excuse, and the "this is just a game" excuse.

Not every action is an ethical and moral one just because it makes money and EVERY company should strive to be ethical and fair, not just those companies that deal with life and death.

ZOS could have prevented all this speculation if they were more honest about their intentions. If this is just a "Sneak Peek" of coming attractions aimed at community members that have a marketable following, then that is fine. If this really is a feedback meeting, then questions of enfranchisement and representation, (as this thread attempts to address) are valid.

Ron_Burgundy_79

kuro-dono

this here just shows how discusting eso forum population is. both parties blaming each other. tho , i am personally on the side of casuals/normal gamers, and gotta say, we get blamed for ruining the game.

Yeah, detonation bomb was our clever idea. oh, magica aoe bomb nightblade was our idea... steel tornado choo choos deffo were our idea! ultimate tanks that dont ever die, definetly i think i had that in my mind at some point! now we got templar heal bots, jesus beamers, i even see elites jesus beaming, because why not? those new monsters sets definetly promoting casual friendly envinronment! dungeon is bit too non casual friendly i would argue?

only thing i can imagine being casualfriendly change was that shields got toned down to amazing 6 second! LOL that joke! those same ppl they dont care if its 2 sec or 20 sec. they just spam it and watch the idiots spam their light attacks and skills in vain while trying to kill shield spammer. no no no. fail again, sorry my bad!

next... can someone after this post state what here is supporting seriously the casuals in pvp that its so fecking gamebreaking for "real players" ? zergs ? some fudge skill which no elite will ever use but casual is using it to kill them? or is it afterall... alessia bridge fault?

Eso pvp is just so damn fabulous, but downside is there is too many coffeine addicted mommys home type junkies who spam skills at the kind of rate that it turns any fun seeking person away.

I used to see 2-4 campaigns per setting available as we used to have lot more pvp:ers. last night i had look at it and oh how sad i felt casuals are ruining the game and making all the 90% of the elites go away so we have less elites but amazing amount of n00bs oh wait what...

sorry. we have less ppl overall playing anywhere. less elites, less casuals, because not enough casuals for each elite to farm.
even idiots eventually realize when they are getting farmed.

Zenimax, i have said it few topics, and i say it again. COMPLETELY, AND FULLY separate casuals from elites in pvp. do us all favor. no more aoe choo choos farming n00bs, no more meta *** gankers behind each tree/rock wherever else ganking. no more those ultimate badass bolt escaping trigger happy kite lords. let the casuals have their fun and... for elites, maybe make campaign where there is huge herd of bots chasing them with random names.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

You are completely right, and I am not against this meeting, though I do think ZOS should be more open about who they meet with and why. However, I am sick of the capitalism excuse, and the "this is just a game" excuse.

Not every action is an ethical and moral one just because it makes money and EVERY company should strive to be ethical and fair, not just those companies that deal with life and death.

ZOS could have prevented all this speculation if they were more honest about their intentions. If this is just a "Sneak Peek" of coming attractions aimed at community members that have a marketable following, then that is fine. If this really is a feedback meeting, then questions of enfranchisement and representation, (as this thread attempts to address) are valid.

I wouldn't describe a company who chooses a panel of customers to test future products and help promoting them as "unethical" or "unfair". I also don't see why ZOS should provide any sort of justification for it.
Just because we're invited to form a community and to provide opinions and feedback doesn't make us ZOS owners, boss or shareholders. We're just customers.

If your local bakery gathered 20 customers to test some new bread recipe, would you even think as them being your "representative" and complain that the bakery did not ask you first ?

I understand that people are concerned that ZOS might make design decisions that we won't like - but then again, we always are, streamers' meeting or not.

Elsonso

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

ZOS could have prevented all this speculation if they were more honest about their intentions. If this is just a "Sneak Peek" of coming attractions aimed at community members that have a marketable following, then that is fine. If this really is a feedback meeting, then questions of enfranchisement and representation, (as this thread attempts to address) are valid.

They were. They said there were doing it. People who were so informed decided to take issue.

What are they doing, and why?

"These players will be playtesting some of our upcoming content and features this week with the goal being to get early, targeted feedback and suggestions."

Who is doing it?

"Q: Are the invited players PvE or PvP oriented? I hope that it is a mixture of them because both metas are quite different.

A: It's a mixture of both."

"Q: are they all Americans, or also Europeans?

A: The selected players are from all over the world!"

"Q: Do you have any oceanic?

A: Yes."

Also:

"We have a good mix of play styles, platform and region. (i.e. - Console & PC players, who PVE and/or PVP, from both NA and EU)"

I am not sure how one determines honesty and dishonesty from that.

bowmanz607

Sypher wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Half the people here don't even stream or do YouTube.

ha tell that to op. People have been trying to tell him that.

hope you had a good time!!!

Paulington

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sypher wrote: »

DigitalShibby wrote: »

I definitely didn't read this entire thread but to me ZOS picked these people because their ESO channels get views... all they are doing is play testing.. then later they will be using those YouTube channels of theirs to create "hype" for morrowind which in turn will drive sales. It's just business people, relax.

Half the people here don't even stream or do YouTube.

ha tell that to op. People have been trying to tell him that.

hope you had a good time!!!

We had an awesome time and yes there were more non-streamers/YouTubers there than people think, probably about half/half in fact.

hamgatan

lordrichter wrote: »

"Q: Do you have any oceanic?

A: Yes."

good. perhaps they can have a pow wow and find a solution for why we have to tolerate 400+ pings and are expected to be 'competitive' with that.