WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

StackonClown

raasdal wrote: »

Yes. Let's get noobs and RP'ers to ZOS HQ so they can really test the *** out of bow light attack, and all the new OP emotes they are playtesting. We would not want it to be some of the players that play the game the most, and at the highest level. No no. Let's get mr. average Joe to give some feedback. Or maybe better - let's not do it at all .Because, let's face it; No matter what ZOS do, some Douchenozzle will find it offensive, "too much" or something else...

Zos already have professional testers being paid to do that as a job!
Thats how all software corporations work.

A multi million dollar MMO isn't going to rely on a few streamers to test their software - is that what you really think?

This is a marketing exercise at best.

FENGRUSH

Riga_Mortis wrote: »

Didnt one of these streamers friends get banned for the flying crit rush glitch, but the streamer didnt and he even said on steeam that he was unbannale

FENGRUSH wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

ZOS Focuses way too much on the feedback of elite "celebrity" gamers while they roundly ignore player consensus and feedback on the forums as a matter of course. It's a problem.
Original Post Below:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Apparently, right now, a select elite of ESO youtubers like Sypher and Deltia, etc are meeting in person with Zenimax after being invited to the headquarters.

While these youtubers provide a service with their content, they hardly represent the ESO player base neither formally nor informally. They most often represent each other. They represent a micro-industry that operates along side ESO. If anything in-game, they represent a small minority of elite guilds that don't experience ESO like the rest of us and are not good representatives.

Please allow me to explain and provide examples.

PvP: I'm not suggesting any of the specific youtubers or "celebrity players" cheat (although some do and have been banned for it), but they also don't experience playing against cheating, or even against OP players, in the same way. Members of this class of ESO players avoid combat with each other. Many of the known cheaters in this game belong to the same guilds as these elite celebrity ESO players. That doesn't mean the celebrity youtubers are cheating, but it usually means the cheaters don't fight against them. This results in this group having an unrealistically casual viewpoint on cheating as something more benign than it is.

Exploits/Secrets: And exploiting game glitches is the cousin of cheating. Things that aren't working as intended, but are unlikely to get you banned, are passed around as open-secrets within the group and become staples of builds, but are not shared publicly because they don't want them fixed.

Here are two examples of fixed exploits that people weren't getting banned for, that I think I can provide since they no longer work.

1) You could double enchant Flanking Set jewelry with a total of 6 jewelry glyphs instead of 3.
2) You could glitch out Hist Bark set to give a dodge bonus even after you took the set off.

So while you were making the hard choices about how to enchant your jewelry, some players were not. When you were spending 3000 stamina to cast Shuffle, or wearing 5 pieces of Hist Bark, others were dodging with neither.

I'm not accusing anyone of doing these things, but I know the people who did do these things are embedded within that small community. So, at it's most benign, this colors the feedback and impressions of the players in that community which are passed on to Zos as apparently about the only feedback they are actually interested in.

Powercreep: Even if none of the youtube celebrity player cheat, or exploit, or take advantage of tricks....the higher ceiling of performance that is enjoyed on average in these communities is exacerbating the power creep problem in this game. Members of this sector of the community are always the first to say, "This game offers me no challenge. VMA is too easy. This is too easy. That is too easy".

Balancing: Their opinion of balance rarely reflects the community because they rarely face players utilizing abilities to their maximum effectiveness due to the fact that players within this class avoid fighting each other. This is the only game I've ever played where friends cannot play against each other. I've had several of the people I consider members of this niche group actually tell me point blank, "Friends don't kill each other in PvP. I'll give you a pass and you give me a pass. Stop fighting against me or I'm taking you off friends list".

Instead of two great players with great builds fighting each other and learning that certain abilities are indeed out of balance, they pass by each other, high-fiving one another as they farm the pugs from each others alliances and convince themselves that the game is perfectly balanced but THEY are individually "Gods of PvP".
These players don't have experiences in the game that would allow them to adequately represent the larger player base.

The resources were used to have this elite youtube gathering session at Zenimax would have been better spent reading the forums, selecting a few issues with broad community consensus, and then having an internal meeting on how to best address those concerns. But that's too much to hope for.

Yes, I'm painting with a broad brush. There are exceptions to every rule and I'm not trying to disparage anyone specifically. I don't blame anyone for accepting the invitation. This is a rebuke of how Zos operates.

I subscribe to Deltia's channel, I like his content, and his personality. But I don't like him as a representative of ESO players.

If you like their videos, that's fine. If you run their builds, that's great. If you think I'm full of crap, that's okay. And Zos can invite whoever they want on a sleepover.
But, if you've ever wondered why this game is balanced around the top 1% of players and the roleplayers being bought off with mount reskins with everyone in the middle ignored, THIS IS WHY.

[Edit to remove mention of moderator actions and political references]

Who did you want them to pick and how did you want them chosen?

The game is not balanced around the 1% of players. Most inaccurate line of a lot of inaccuracies in your post. You don't watch the content or don't understand what they've said.

Your reasons provided are terrible.. Saying they cheat, or don't fight good players. Get real.

Just want to address the cheating part of your comment, account sharing and the crit rush exploit to enter keeps come to mind, done live on air by streamers aswell. Didnt you yourself say after your friend was banned for the crit rush exploit, that you are unbannable because you are a streamer. The account sharing streamer should of been perma banned for that one.

One of my friends was banned for crit rushing into a keep yes. Am I unbannable? I don't know. I haven't cheated or broken the tos to test those waters yet.

CyrusArya

willlienellson wrote: »

I would believe what I wrote if I didn't get a single agree. But I did get a lot. So, for people to simply wave off all the criticism is pretty foolish. That's the point.

@willlienellson

Of course you got a lot of agrees. The number of whining baddies who don't hesitate a second to outsource the blame on why they suck to any and every probable cause other than themselves is off the charts. That same mentality is also why they never improve.

I'm not waving off your criticism because I think you're jealous though. I don't think you even have right to be jealous. No, I'm waving off your criticism because it's extremely narrow sighted and not based on anything but your obviously biased and wrong assumptions.

FENGRUSH

StackonClown wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Yes. Let's get noobs and RP'ers to ZOS HQ so they can really test the *** out of bow light attack, and all the new OP emotes they are playtesting. We would not want it to be some of the players that play the game the most, and at the highest level. No no. Let's get mr. average Joe to give some feedback. Or maybe better - let's not do it at all .Because, let's face it; No matter what ZOS do, some Douchenozzle will find it offensive, "too much" or something else...

Zos already have professional testers being paid to do that as a job!
Thats how all software corporations work.

A multi million dollar MMO isn't going to rely on a few streamers to test their software - is that what you really think?

This is a marketing exercise at best.

I agree most have multiple layers of players testing. A lot of the people at zos aren't twitch streamers though so.. the marketing theory may have a couple holes imo.

MakoFore

StackonClown wrote: »

MakoFore wrote: »

well as i said- I'm happy fengrush and deltia, and alcast are there to rep me. they've blasted the game, supported the game- been fair throughout. most of all they've done good things for the community. i know they loe the game and just want whats best for all gamers- and for the longevity and welfare of the gaming community. so whats wrong with that?

How is anyone representing you?
Have you given them direct feedback to relay on to ZOS?
What are your main concerns and how can these players help to get them addressed?

How do you mean support the game? buying crowns, subbing? or just 'liking the game' by playing for hours and hours.

no- but i dont speak to politicians either and they represent me- whether i like it or not. i trust that the guys they chose know the game well enough to speak on it- and will address the games issues better than i could. look i play when i can- i dont have time to try different builds, buy sets- i just farm what i can in the time i have- and alot of it is based off of the services that these streamers provide. so in that sense - they help alot of players and learn their ***.
i would rather these guys do it than a random selection or a hired testers. these guys hear our complaints on our streams day and night- and are as close to professional players that we have in the community. whats wrong with getting their feedback? nothings final. as we saw with PTS, plenty of time to *** things up.

idk

FENGRUSH wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Yes. Let's get noobs and RP'ers to ZOS HQ so they can really test the *** out of bow light attack, and all the new OP emotes they are playtesting. We would not want it to be some of the players that play the game the most, and at the highest level. No no. Let's get mr. average Joe to give some feedback. Or maybe better - let's not do it at all .Because, let's face it; No matter what ZOS do, some Douchenozzle will find it offensive, "too much" or something else...

Zos already have professional testers being paid to do that as a job!
Thats how all software corporations work.

A multi million dollar MMO isn't going to rely on a few streamers to test their software - is that what you really think?

This is a marketing exercise at best.

I agree most have multiple layers of players testing. A lot of the people at zos aren't twitch streamers though so.. the marketing theory may have a couple holes imo.

I think most knowledgeable players that come to the forums understand the insight someone like yourself can bring to Zos that an average player like myself and most that have posted in this thread are not able to provide.

Riga_Mortis

FENGRUSH wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Yes. Let's get noobs and RP'ers to ZOS HQ so they can really test the *** out of bow light attack, and all the new OP emotes they are playtesting. We would not want it to be some of the players that play the game the most, and at the highest level. No no. Let's get mr. average Joe to give some feedback. Or maybe better - let's not do it at all .Because, let's face it; No matter what ZOS do, some Douchenozzle will find it offensive, "too much" or something else...

Zos already have professional testers being paid to do that as a job!
Thats how all software corporations work.

A multi million dollar MMO isn't going to rely on a few streamers to test their software - is that what you really think?

This is a marketing exercise at best.

I agree most have multiple layers of players testing. A lot of the people at zos aren't twitch streamers though so.. the marketing theory may have a couple holes imo.

I might be reading this wrong, but are you actually saying that you, as twitch streamers, have more influence than paid ZOS employees when it comes to testing. Pretty sure thats what this entire thread is worried about in general.

JinMori

I much rather have players who are known to be good, to test balancing stuff, then the average dude. Yea, the average dude may have some good points, but a good player since he has a much better knowledge of the game, point out certain abiliryes that are either op or need a buff.
If you were a business man would you want the average joe to run your company or would you want someone with qualifications? i think we all know the answer here.
This is why each time i see posts like this i cannot help but to think, that this is just jelousy.
To me the words of sypher/fengrush/deltia are much more valuable then the average person, because i know they are much more qualified to talk about this. Because there is PROOF that they are good players, who understand game mechanics.

Sincerely an average dude.

willlienellson

willlienellson wrote: »

Of course you got a lot of agrees. The number of whining baddies who

Of course the streamers are getting defended. The number of hero-worshiping fanboys who....blaa blaa blaaaaa

bitels

Riga_Mortis wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Yes. Let's get noobs and RP'ers to ZOS HQ so they can really test the *** out of bow light attack, and all the new OP emotes they are playtesting. We would not want it to be some of the players that play the game the most, and at the highest level. No no. Let's get mr. average Joe to give some feedback. Or maybe better - let's not do it at all .Because, let's face it; No matter what ZOS do, some Douchenozzle will find it offensive, "too much" or something else...

Zos already have professional testers being paid to do that as a job!
Thats how all software corporations work.

A multi million dollar MMO isn't going to rely on a few streamers to test their software - is that what you really think?

This is a marketing exercise at best.

I agree most have multiple layers of players testing. A lot of the people at zos aren't twitch streamers though so.. the marketing theory may have a couple holes imo.

I might be reading this wrong, but are you actually saying that you, as twitch streamers, have more influence than paid ZOS employees when it comes to testing. Pretty sure thats what this entire thread is worried about in general.

Yes, you might be reading this wrong- a lot of the ppl that were invited to ZoS HQ for a week are not streamers.

StackonClown

FENGRUSH wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Yes. Let's get noobs and RP'ers to ZOS HQ so they can really test the *** out of bow light attack, and all the new OP emotes they are playtesting. We would not want it to be some of the players that play the game the most, and at the highest level. No no. Let's get mr. average Joe to give some feedback. Or maybe better - let's not do it at all .Because, let's face it; No matter what ZOS do, some Douchenozzle will find it offensive, "too much" or something else...

Zos already have professional testers being paid to do that as a job!
Thats how all software corporations work.

A multi million dollar MMO isn't going to rely on a few streamers to test their software - is that what you really think?

This is a marketing exercise at best.

I agree most have multiple layers of players testing. A lot of the people at zos aren't twitch streamers though so.. the marketing theory may have a couple holes imo.

Well by marketing I mean that:

ZOS doesnt really need any non-ZOS person to 'theorycraft' or 'playtest' other than as a token gesture and maybe some generalised feedback.

So instead, they see the players, streamers, youtubers who are passionate about the game, and know the game well and are typically near the top in multiple areas whether pve, pvp, builds, general mechanics and rotations, theory etc.

They then invite these players as a reward for their dedication and also passion in generating interest in the game - and basically acknowledge their place in the game... and then..

'Now go tell the world how awesome the game is and Zeni is also' - i.e. go ahead and market and promote the game for us fo the next 12 months.. and maybe you'll come back again next year.

This is called marketing! Typically this is something like 'celebrity marketing'...
Imagine if noone ever did a youtube or stream relating to ESO.. This would not be good for business!
So whether you intend or not, you are part of Zeni's marketing framework.

I look forward to anyone who attended to criticise ZOS loudly on their youtube for the next 'dumb' thing ZOS does (like nerfing proc crit - for no other good reason than to force yet another few months of grinding).

Do I have an issue with this? No!! Have fun!

BUT... call it what it is... not some invite to 'theory crafters' as was said by someone from ZOS which would imply this will help to fix issues or improve the game.

Just call it the 'ZOS awesome player/streamer' summit, take some photos, publish a magazine, play laser tag.. whatever!

Note this is not a personal judgement on you - I find your videos entertaining and enjoy watching them!

CyrusArya

willlienellson wrote: »

Of course the streamers are getting defended. The number of hero-worshiping fanboys who....blaa blaa blaaaaa

Its not at all about defending the streamers. If you knew me in game you'd know I don't care either way for em. Its about disagreeing with your blatantly wrong assumptions that you're trying to pass off as fact. Its funny how you use that as a straw man to avoid the argument though.

My point is that the opinions of a knowledgeable minority are more valuable than the opinions of an ignorant majority. Every time, in every possible context. And furthermore, just because a select few were invited in this instance doesn't mean ZOS ignores all the other channels of feedback that exist, which would have to be the case for the game to be balanced around the 1%. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Your post rubs off on me the same way as some minimum wage peasant crying about the 'wealthy elite', when said person never made an attempt to go to college or improve their prospects in life. The difference is, while there are many limiting factors to success in real life, anyone can get good at ESO. Its not hard to do.

You have a very jaded and narrow perspective, and so your ranting should be dismissed.

idk

willlienellson wrote: »

willlienellson wrote: »

Of course you got a lot of agrees. The number of whining baddies who

Of course the streamers are getting defended. The number of hero-worshiping fanboys who....blaa blaa blaaaaa

@willlienellson

Your comment is obviously self serving and clearly preposterous. Many like myself do not watch streamers since I prefer to play the game instead of watching someone else play it. I do however understand the merit of having players like Fengrush and the non-streamers Zos invited can offer.

I would certainly rather Zos get their feedback than mine or yours.

willlienellson

CyrusArya wrote: »

snip

You miss the point. When you open with "The number of whining baddies who"....you pretty severely reduce the chance I'm going to care what you have to say...or even read it (which I didn't).

idk

willlienellson wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

snip

You miss the point. When you open with "The number of whining baddies who"....you pretty severely reduce the chance I'm going to care what you have to say...or even read it (which I didn't).

OMG LOL Nothing more needs to be said.

Back to eating popcorn and enjoying this entertaining show.

I think the reply below sums it up very well

CyrusArya

willlienellson wrote: »

You miss the point. When you open with "The number of whining baddies who"....you pretty severely reduce the chance I'm going to care what you have to say...or even read it (which I didn't).

Yeah I'm gonna take that as admission that you have no counter argument. You're only reaffirming my point about how people like you choose to be ignorant and driven by emotions rather than logic.

Congratulations,you played yourself kid.

idk

. . .

willlienellson

bitels wrote: »

Yes, you might be reading this wrong- a lot of the ppl that were invited to ZoS HQ for a week are not streamers.

FWIW, Zos pushed me into a corner of using "streamers" because when I tried to use the word L0bby!sts to describe the group it was deleted twice. But also, it seems we are all using the term "streamers" now to encompass anyone who puts out videos. And people are saying Alcast isn't one, but if you google his name and ESO the first result is youtube videos.

Not that I have a problem with streaming, or youtube, or any of it. It's great.

@FENGRUSH, @Deltia, @Alcast, etc......I think it's great you guys are making a living (or trying to) doing something you enjoy and I hope you all get many thousands more followers and get wealthy from it. Seriously.

But that has nothing to do with the subject of the thread. I understand your immediate emotional reaction (and that of your fans) is to become very defensive. But it's not about you or the service you provide to viewers.

willlienellson

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

You keep making the exact same comment over and over again in a bunch of pages. I've really tried hard not to engage with you because you're IMPOSSIBLE.

Now you've posted 3 times in the last like 10 minutes. The last reply was three dots.

I liked it best when you said, "Nothing more needs to be said".

Is there any chance at all you were serious?

idk

Other than streaming and such I am unsure what @fengrush does. However, @Deltia and @Alcast both deliver extreemly useful information about the game and builds that perform well. They have demonstrated the ability to discern what works well as the constantly changing ESO evolves.

Further, there are other Zos invited that are less known, but Zos knows them well for the success and critical thinking in ESO in relation to what is being tested.

So, to @willlienellson I ask what have you done to demonstrate your worthiness to be part of the testing or even to have an understanding of who should be involved in the testing. All I have seen you contribute is salty threads to the forums that provide little value.

Cadbury

15 pages...amazeballs.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO , just let it go. It's not worth it. All that matters is the delicious popcorn.

StackonClown

For what its worth, I have supported Zeni as a loyal customer.

I have bought 3 copies of ESO, sub to ESO+, bought many 10s of thousands of crowns and bought a *lot* of crown crates. (Unlike people who complained about them and bought none!)

This may not be much compared to others, but I'm not throwing stones from a distance - I have 'put my money on the table' for a game I enjoy.

But I'm passionate about Zeni fixing things that affect ALL players like botting and exploiting and dont see Zeni doing enough in this area. These things dont need a player meeting to discover - they are all well known!

I also find it odd that Zeni are so secretive about their player numbers and also *statistics* (not details) about player discipline. Why? Its not like there is some legislation preventing it - be transparent!

So when I see what I still feel is a thinly veiled marketing/award meeting being called a theorycrafting playtest'... I will not wear that easily.

A lot. most, nearly all people who play ESO are clever and have great instincts and don't like to be treated like fools

Tabbycat

If they make the game better, that's a great thing.

If not... now we know who to blame. bwahahahaha

willlienellson

CyrusArya wrote: »

Yeah I'm gonna take that as admission

You take it however you want it. LMAO

You start a post with an insult and then claim when someone doesn't read the rest of it that means you win the argument.

Yeah, that makes sense. You win. Take your trophy and be on your way.

dsalter

VileDeeds77 wrote: »

cheemers wrote: »

I think all three of the streamers you mentioned by name are actually pretty great ambassadors for the game and its playerbase. You don't know what specifically they are being asked to review at ZoS - I'm confident that they'll be looking to review new PvP systems rather than new quests or whatever. I'm not sure what axe you have to grind but some of your assertions about cheaters and exploiters and the "middle 98%" are completely baseless and frankly laughable.

I agree.

OP, not sure if you have watched any of Fengrush's videos but he is very critical and rightfully so of the entire Cyrodiil experience, from getting zerged down in the wheel of pain, to the stability of Cyrodiil. He is respectful toward the work that is done by the devs toward combat changes and Cyrodiil, but by no means does he kiss any butts at ZOS.

they will after special treatment.

StackonClown

MakoFore wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

MakoFore wrote: »

well as i said- I'm happy fengrush and deltia, and alcast are there to rep me. they've blasted the game, supported the game- been fair throughout. most of all they've done good things for the community. i know they loe the game and just want whats best for all gamers- and for the longevity and welfare of the gaming community. so whats wrong with that?

How is anyone representing you?
Have you given them direct feedback to relay on to ZOS?
What are your main concerns and how can these players help to get them addressed?

How do you mean support the game? buying crowns, subbing? or just 'liking the game' by playing for hours and hours.

i would rather these guys do it than a random selection or a hired testers. these guys hear our complaints on our streams day and night- and are as close to professional players that we have in the community. whats wrong with getting their feedback? nothings final. as we saw with PTS, plenty of time to *** things up.

Ok fine - i hear you - if that is really the case that you are giving feedback to 'these guys' day and night... then once they are back please simply ask them:

- what feedback they gave
- what Zeni said about the feedback
- what Zeni will do with the feedback
- check what really was done?

Joy_Division

willlienellson wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

snip

You miss the point. When you open with "The number of whining baddies who"....you pretty severely reduce the chance I'm going to care what you have to say...or even read it (which I didn't).

But it's OK for you to insult streamers as elitists who are part of a "small community" that purposefully avoiding fighting each otheronly such that they don't experience fighting against cheating

anitajoneb17_ESO

StackonClown wrote: »

Well by marketing I mean that:

ZOS doesnt really need any non-ZOS person to 'theorycraft' or 'playtest' other than as a token gesture and maybe some generalised feedback.

All you say about marketing is true, but it's not true that ZOS doesn't need non-ZOS people to test and theorycraft.
Professional testers CANNOT have the eyes of a player. The people ZOS invited have the point of view of players.

I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.

StackonClown

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Deltia and @Alcast both deliver extreemly useful information about the game and builds that perform well. They have demonstrated the ability to discern what works well as the constantly changing ESO evolves..

Agreed - on that note why doesn't Zeni themselves have some of their people talk about builds and game info?
Let's just get straight to the source? Forget the 'ask us anything'.. show us how you play! Wrobel or whoever should stream themselves playing. Talk to the players, your customers!! Dont leave it to 3rd parties to do it for you.

I mean why do we need to go to Fextra life or whatever to read about game info, gear stats etc.

Just seems to be laziness by Zeni.

And Lobi-ist marketing is another lazy, near-free strategy.

Same as housing - lazy cut and paste of in-game buildings, but just emptied out. - and lazy grind-fest approach.

Proc crit nerf - a lazy approach rather than fixing individual sets.. dont know, but seems the complaints came from PVP but caused a PVE nerf.

Again, the best players actually work for Zeni - they dont really need any <insert player/streamer here> to show them something that they 'didnt work out yet' - they *wrote the game* LOL

StackonClown

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

StackonClown wrote: »

Well by marketing I mean that:

ZOS doesnt really need any non-ZOS person to 'theorycraft' or 'playtest' other than as a token gesture and maybe some generalised feedback.

All you say about marketing is true, but it's not true that ZOS doesn't need non-ZOS people to test and theorycraft.
Professional testers CANNOT have the eyes of a player. The people ZOS invited have the poitn of view of a players.

I think ZOS is doing both : marketing AND collecting valuable input/feedback.

Look thats fair - but is a few players for 1 week really going to make a tangible difference?
And they wont spend the entire week playing/'testing'.. maybe 2 or 3 days max

Whereas ZOS employees, devs AND testers will work for months on end..