The latest exploit with animation clipping

HeroOfNone

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

Thanks I'll check it after work

Shunravi

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

There are two ways to see it I guess. I see it as he just answered about animation canceling, and neglected the macro part of the question.

Armitas

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

I saw this before and only took note of the animation cancel, good catch on the ticket response for macroing.

Casdha

As far as Add-Ons vs 3rd party software goes, you can see with the following Quote from the "Add-on Terms":

"ENTIRE AGREEMENT

Except as set forth in this Section, if there is any conflict between the Terms of Service, a EULA and any Supplemental Terms, You acknowledge and agree that, for the purposes of the Add-on Terms of Use, the terms and conditions shall govern in the following order of precedence: (i) Terms of Service; (ii) the applicable EULA; (iii) the Add-on Terms of Use; and (iv) the applicable Code of Conduct. "

that the "Add-on Terms" supersedes the "Code of Conduct" when the two conflict such as the following Quote from the "Code of Conduct" where this phrase would make Add-ons a violation were it not for the order of precedence in the Quote above:

"Third party applications are defined as any program, application or script written by an individual, company, corporation, or private party not employed by or contracted to perform services by ZeniMax."

HeroOfNone

Shunravi wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

There are two ways to see it I guess. I see it as he just answered about animation canceling, and neglected the macro part of the question.

Hrm, that's the typical ZOS "no stance" then, which neither confirms or deny anything, so they can take a later stance on it (which they seem to have with the prior quote). If it wasn't specifically saying macroing was ok, then it's moot until they say yay or nah.


This also doesn't mean they can't change their stance later either, but normally they make a policy change notice for that

domon924_ESO

saw a guy got to a hill the same height as the keep wall on the arrius mine side and began blinking 3-4 times in a row in mid air to get on the wall. Now I've always give the benefit of doubt to people and usually attribute triple blink in midair or double heavy attack from stealth to server being ***. But when you see a guy purposely climb the exact hill with the same height as the wall and blink repeatedly toward it, he obviously knew what the outcome was going to be. Having seen such things being done on command by another player, I now have no reservations about implementing other games "feature" I knew about since beta but never bothered with since I didn't want to ruin other people's day. But I guess now that the game is free to play and people just simple don't give a *** about getting their account ban, that no longer matters.

Shunravi

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

There are two ways to see it I guess. I see it as he just answered about animation canceling, and neglected the macro part of the question.

Hrm, that's the typical ZOS "no stance" then, which neither confirms or deny anything, so they can take a later stance on it (which they seem to have with the prior quote). If it wasn't specifically saying macroing was ok, then it's moot until they say yay or nah.


This also doesn't mean they can't change their stance later either, but normally they make a policy change notice for that

Yea, it is very 'no stance...'. Though recent dev posts have clarified the stance pretty well I think.

Lykurgis

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source

This is somewhat contradictory to what I have been told and: unapproved third party applications raises a question for me.

Where is the approved third party applications list? I know that it was said at GS that Razor Macros were "ok" with the caveats i mentioned earlier and allowed for the reasons others point out, meaning: the animation can only do so much.

Still the first time I've heard that any macroing, even using keyboard/mouse software, was allowed In any fashion. Do you have any quotable ZOS statements outside of personal affirmations?

All i have is conversations between Paul Sage, Eric Wrobel, the animations team and Guild Leaders.

JTorus

Varicite wrote: »

JTorus wrote: »

While there are those insisting that the global cooldowns can't be bypassed, they can certainly be used without recourse in the TTL window of opportunity offered by exploiting the TX data flow. UDP is a terribly old, and very basic, even it's varying flavors don't really ensure the dataflow can't be.... massaged.

I've never once said that global cooldowns "can't be bypassed", nor has anyone else in this thread.

What has been said is that global cooldowns can't be bypassed via animation cancelling alone.

What you're talking about is a very different case than what the OP and others are trying to blame for this type of burst.

"ZOMG ZOS CAN'T FIX ATTACK WEAVING AND I GOT HIT 6 TIMES IN 1 SECOND BECAUSE OF ANIMATION CANCELLING". - that's the sentiment that I've been arguing against, because it's not possible to do via legitimate in-game mechanics, and it's doing the entire community a HUGE disservice by continuing to proliferate this kind of misinformation.

People who aren't versed in the game's mechanics, or new to the game altogether see posts like this and think that is the culprit when it is not even possible.

Macroing certain abilities together to falsely lag out the server to create burst scenarios that are unintended is something entirely different and clearly cheating. Heck, macroing abilities together in combat at all has been explicitly stated to be cheating just by itself.

You seem to be missing a very important distinction in the debate at hand, and one that needs to be clarified for those who are unable or unwilling to test for themselves.

Ease up there sparky, my comment wasn't directed at you, and in fact I'm in complete agreement. My point is very much relevant to OP's initial point in that as far as most people are concerned, they have no way to discern if they've been out-maneuvered or if someone's exploited to kill them. It can look very much the same. Utilizing addons is futile as the reporting is delayed, the death recap is rudimentary, so most players have no real way of knowing if they've been out played, or if someone's cheated.

Lykurgis

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

at 1:03:59 they answer my question about Target Dummies lol

glak

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source

This is somewhat contradictory to what I have been told and: unapproved third party applications raises a question for me.

Where is the approved third party applications list? I know that it was said at GS that Razor Macros were "ok" with the caveats i mentioned earlier and allowed for the reasons others point out, meaning: the animation can only do so much.

Still the first time I've heard that any macroing, even using keyboard/mouse software, was allowed In any fashion. Do you have any quotable ZOS statements outside of personal affirmations?

All i have is conversations between Paul Sage, Eric Wrobel, the animations team and Guild Leaders.

He said / she said. They need to put out an actual notice like this but specifically for macros:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74534/taking-action-against-cheaters-in-eso

Right now, we have one admin saying no to using macros for only automation but it is buried in a thread. No specific mention of button-/key-binds or addons by this admin, but does mention profile software.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

Bouvin

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Looks like the heavy attack DK build posted over on Tamriel Foundry.

I agree. The big issue here is a single heavy attack doing 15k+ damage.

When average health in cyro is 22k - 25k, that's just too much.

I mean, it's basically like "All I have to do to kill you is two heavy attacks". Is that really what PvP should be, doing to heavy attacks first and winning?

Bouvin

Lykurgis wrote: »

There's a video guide on animation canceling. It's ruled legal by ZOS because they can't really fix it, lazy, but ya...it's all good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTb2YpuRsP4

About macros, they told people at the guild summit (and I believe here on the forums as well as ESO live) that programs like Razors Synapse, Logitech G15 keyboards ect were ok to use. Obviously botting is not so if a macro leads to that, well then thats another matter.
I have seen people trading Macros in zone/guild chat since the game launch and have yet to hear of a single person banned for it.
Using a "weave" macro is a pretty common practice and i seriously doubt that many (if any) high leader board guilds/groups abstain from using them in some form or fashion.

ZOS said otherwise with their official response in this thread. Essentially, they are saying all macroing through 3rd party software, including that provided with gaming keyboards and mice, is prohibited. Sure you can use the keyboard and mouse, but not the software.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/172346/need-clarification-on-gaming-keyboards

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hi @Casdha !

The use of gaming keyboards and mice are not prohibited, but the use of third-party software or other means of creating macros to automate in-game functions is a violation. I apologize for the confusion!

Just to clarify further, part of the Terms of Service document includes an agreement to follow other Supplemental Terms pertaining to Your Service and/or Game, such as a Code of Conduct, provide guidance on behavior that ZeniMax deems to be inappropriate and specify restrictions on Your Account, Your use of the Game, or Your participation in the Services.

There is a paragraph in the Terms of Service agreement that is as follows:

You agree not to use any hardware or software or any other method of support that is not authorized by ZeniMax or that may in any way influence or advantage Your playing abilities, or influence or advantage Your use of the Services. Third party tools, the use of ‘bots’, “speed hacks”, “deep-link”, “page-scrape”, “robot”, “spider”, algorithm or other programs that copy or monitor any part of the Services (including, but not limited to, the Game(s) and/or forums), software that transmits, manipulates, or distributes (including, but are limited to, “mirroring”) the data stream or any aspect of the Services to another computer, server websites or other publication or distribution media, or software that permits You to use Services without human input are examples of methods not authorized by ZeniMax

Whether it provides an advantage or not, utilizing macros do fall under this category and are prohibited. Please be sure to let us know if you still have any further questions or concerns!

Varicite

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

No it doesn't. They don't even mention macroing.

All they said is that "animation cancelling is part of the game and we want people to be doing it." "Continue to animation cancel and do more damage, it's not a hack or exploit or anything".

They don't actually address the "macroing" part of the question at all, though.

Armitas

glak wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source

This is somewhat contradictory to what I have been told and: unapproved third party applications raises a question for me.

Where is the approved third party applications list? I know that it was said at GS that Razor Macros were "ok" with the caveats i mentioned earlier and allowed for the reasons others point out, meaning: the animation can only do so much.

Still the first time I've heard that any macroing, even using keyboard/mouse software, was allowed In any fashion. Do you have any quotable ZOS statements outside of personal affirmations?

All i have is conversations between Paul Sage, Eric Wrobel, the animations team and Guild Leaders.

He said / she said. They need to put out an actual notice like this but specifically for macros:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74534/taking-action-against-cheaters-in-eso

Right now, we have one admin saying no to using macros for only automation but it is buried in a thread. No specific mention of button-/key-binds or addons by this admin, but does mention profile software.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

Varicite wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

No it doesn't. They don't even mention macroing.

All they said is that "animation cancelling is part of the game and we want people to be doing it." "Continue to animation cancel and do more damage, it's not a hack or exploit or anything".

They don't actually address the "macroing" part of the question at all, though.

They do it's just really really easy to miss. I missed it as well. The guy asking the question says that customer service said using macros to automate light attack weaving was ok. It's kind of nestled in there deep, after that they just talk about animation canceling. Start at 44:28. Now we don't have the original customer service ticket so it's still kind of up in the air.

Varicite

Armitas wrote: »

glak wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source

This is somewhat contradictory to what I have been told and: unapproved third party applications raises a question for me.

Where is the approved third party applications list? I know that it was said at GS that Razor Macros were "ok" with the caveats i mentioned earlier and allowed for the reasons others point out, meaning: the animation can only do so much.

Still the first time I've heard that any macroing, even using keyboard/mouse software, was allowed In any fashion. Do you have any quotable ZOS statements outside of personal affirmations?

All i have is conversations between Paul Sage, Eric Wrobel, the animations team and Guild Leaders.

He said / she said. They need to put out an actual notice like this but specifically for macros:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74534/taking-action-against-cheaters-in-eso

Right now, we have one admin saying no to using macros for only automation but it is buried in a thread. No specific mention of button-/key-binds or addons by this admin, but does mention profile software.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

Varicite wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

No it doesn't. They don't even mention macroing.

All they said is that "animation cancelling is part of the game and we want people to be doing it." "Continue to animation cancel and do more damage, it's not a hack or exploit or anything".

They don't actually address the "macroing" part of the question at all, though.

They do it's just really really easy to miss. I missed it as well. The guy asking the question says that customer service said using macros to automate light attack weaving was ok. It's kind of nestled in there deep, after that they just talk about animation canceling. Start at 44:28. Now we don't have the original customer service ticket so it's still kind of up in the air.

I heard that, but they don't specifically address that part of the question at all during the answer, only animation cancelling itself.

When answering the question, they do not touch on macros whatsoever, or talk about what was said by customer service. They stick 100% to animation cancelling and whether it's okay to do, not whether it's okay to macro it.

It's a 2-part question, and only one part is answered while the other part is ignored entirely.

Shunravi

Armitas wrote: »

glak wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source

This is somewhat contradictory to what I have been told and: unapproved third party applications raises a question for me.

Where is the approved third party applications list? I know that it was said at GS that Razor Macros were "ok" with the caveats i mentioned earlier and allowed for the reasons others point out, meaning: the animation can only do so much.

Still the first time I've heard that any macroing, even using keyboard/mouse software, was allowed In any fashion. Do you have any quotable ZOS statements outside of personal affirmations?

All i have is conversations between Paul Sage, Eric Wrobel, the animations team and Guild Leaders.

He said / she said. They need to put out an actual notice like this but specifically for macros:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74534/taking-action-against-cheaters-in-eso

Right now, we have one admin saying no to using macros for only automation but it is buried in a thread. No specific mention of button-/key-binds or addons by this admin, but does mention profile software.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

Varicite wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

No it doesn't. They don't even mention macroing.

All they said is that "animation cancelling is part of the game and we want people to be doing it." "Continue to animation cancel and do more damage, it's not a hack or exploit or anything".

They don't actually address the "macroing" part of the question at all, though.

They do it's just really really easy to miss. I missed it as well. The guy asking the question says that customer service said using macros to automate light attack weaving was ok. It's kind of nestled in there deep, after that they just talk about animation canceling. Start at 44:28. Now we don't have the original customer service ticket so it's still kind of up in the air.

No, the question asks about macros, but the response is a 'political answer' that ignores that and talks strictly about animation canceling. It's not nestled at all. It wasn't addressed in the answer.

Armitas

Shunravi wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

glak wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source

This is somewhat contradictory to what I have been told and: unapproved third party applications raises a question for me.

Where is the approved third party applications list? I know that it was said at GS that Razor Macros were "ok" with the caveats i mentioned earlier and allowed for the reasons others point out, meaning: the animation can only do so much.

Still the first time I've heard that any macroing, even using keyboard/mouse software, was allowed In any fashion. Do you have any quotable ZOS statements outside of personal affirmations?

All i have is conversations between Paul Sage, Eric Wrobel, the animations team and Guild Leaders.

He said / she said. They need to put out an actual notice like this but specifically for macros:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74534/taking-action-against-cheaters-in-eso

Right now, we have one admin saying no to using macros for only automation but it is buried in a thread. No specific mention of button-/key-binds or addons by this admin, but does mention profile software.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

Varicite wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

No it doesn't. They don't even mention macroing.

All they said is that "animation cancelling is part of the game and we want people to be doing it." "Continue to animation cancel and do more damage, it's not a hack or exploit or anything".

They don't actually address the "macroing" part of the question at all, though.

They do it's just really really easy to miss. I missed it as well. The guy asking the question says that customer service said using macros to automate light attack weaving was ok. It's kind of nestled in there deep, after that they just talk about animation canceling. Start at 44:28. Now we don't have the original customer service ticket so it's still kind of up in the air.

No, the question asks about macros, but the response is a 'political answer' that ignores that and talks strictly about animation canceling. It's not nestled at all. It wasn't addressed in the answer.

It's the part that says 'customer service says it's ok'. It's a side note to the question asked. The guy who originally asked zos about animation cancelling also asked customer service if it was ok to macro light attack weaving and customer service said it was ok. He just happens to mention his experience with customer service in his question, and ZOS reads it and answers his question about animation canceling.

ZOS doesn't address that part, customer service does, more specifically we happen to learn how customer service is responding to the question due to the reading of the whole statement by the questioner.

HeroOfNone

Armitas wrote: »

glak wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source

This is somewhat contradictory to what I have been told and: unapproved third party applications raises a question for me.

Where is the approved third party applications list? I know that it was said at GS that Razor Macros were "ok" with the caveats i mentioned earlier and allowed for the reasons others point out, meaning: the animation can only do so much.

Still the first time I've heard that any macroing, even using keyboard/mouse software, was allowed In any fashion. Do you have any quotable ZOS statements outside of personal affirmations?

All i have is conversations between Paul Sage, Eric Wrobel, the animations team and Guild Leaders.

He said / she said. They need to put out an actual notice like this but specifically for macros:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74534/taking-action-against-cheaters-in-eso

Right now, we have one admin saying no to using macros for only automation but it is buried in a thread. No specific mention of button-/key-binds or addons by this admin, but does mention profile software.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

Varicite wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

No it doesn't. They don't even mention macroing.

All they said is that "animation cancelling is part of the game and we want people to be doing it." "Continue to animation cancel and do more damage, it's not a hack or exploit or anything".

They don't actually address the "macroing" part of the question at all, though.

They do it's just really really easy to miss. I missed it as well. The guy asking the question says that customer service said using macros to automate light attack weaving was ok. It's kind of nestled in there deep, after that they just talk about animation canceling. Start at 44:28. Now we don't have the original customer service ticket so it's still kind of up in the air.

That's sort of a gotcha question, it's the same as saying we support bombing NK in the following question: "an army soldier said it's ok to bomb North Korea, how fast can the army mobilize to shoot missiles at Kim Jon un?" You never confirm the identity of the first statement to see if they had authority to make a policy decision or if they even knew the policy on hand. Plus you can't tell if the person asking misheard, lied, or did hear it.

So again we never have a ZOS employee on record saying it's ok. As stated by others, they only address the animation canceling part of the question, which is not admission that the first part was true.

Varicite

Customer service isn't really what I would call an official response at all. And the official response 100% contradicts the anecdote that was mentioned in that video.

Shunravi

Armitas wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

glak wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source

This is somewhat contradictory to what I have been told and: unapproved third party applications raises a question for me.

Where is the approved third party applications list? I know that it was said at GS that Razor Macros were "ok" with the caveats i mentioned earlier and allowed for the reasons others point out, meaning: the animation can only do so much.

Still the first time I've heard that any macroing, even using keyboard/mouse software, was allowed In any fashion. Do you have any quotable ZOS statements outside of personal affirmations?

All i have is conversations between Paul Sage, Eric Wrobel, the animations team and Guild Leaders.

He said / she said. They need to put out an actual notice like this but specifically for macros:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74534/taking-action-against-cheaters-in-eso

Right now, we have one admin saying no to using macros for only automation but it is buried in a thread. No specific mention of button-/key-binds or addons by this admin, but does mention profile software.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

Varicite wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

No it doesn't. They don't even mention macroing.

All they said is that "animation cancelling is part of the game and we want people to be doing it." "Continue to animation cancel and do more damage, it's not a hack or exploit or anything".

They don't actually address the "macroing" part of the question at all, though.

They do it's just really really easy to miss. I missed it as well. The guy asking the question says that customer service said using macros to automate light attack weaving was ok. It's kind of nestled in there deep, after that they just talk about animation canceling. Start at 44:28. Now we don't have the original customer service ticket so it's still kind of up in the air.

No, the question asks about macros, but the response is a 'political answer' that ignores that and talks strictly about animation canceling. It's not nestled at all. It wasn't addressed in the answer.

It's the part that says 'customer service says it's ok'. It's a side note to the question asked. The guy who originally asked zos about animation cancelling also asked customer service if it was ok to macro light attack weaving and customer service said it was ok. He just happens to mention his experience with customer service in his question, and ZOS reads it and answers his question about animation canceling.

I heard it. I'm not missing it.

And, again, the part about macros is ignored in the answer. I can claim Brian Wheeler said it's ok for me to teleport strike through keep walls and have just as much legitamacy as that claim.

Armitas

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

glak wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source

This is somewhat contradictory to what I have been told and: unapproved third party applications raises a question for me.

Where is the approved third party applications list? I know that it was said at GS that Razor Macros were "ok" with the caveats i mentioned earlier and allowed for the reasons others point out, meaning: the animation can only do so much.

Still the first time I've heard that any macroing, even using keyboard/mouse software, was allowed In any fashion. Do you have any quotable ZOS statements outside of personal affirmations?

All i have is conversations between Paul Sage, Eric Wrobel, the animations team and Guild Leaders.

He said / she said. They need to put out an actual notice like this but specifically for macros:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74534/taking-action-against-cheaters-in-eso

Right now, we have one admin saying no to using macros for only automation but it is buried in a thread. No specific mention of button-/key-binds or addons by this admin, but does mention profile software.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

Varicite wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

No it doesn't. They don't even mention macroing.

All they said is that "animation cancelling is part of the game and we want people to be doing it." "Continue to animation cancel and do more damage, it's not a hack or exploit or anything".

They don't actually address the "macroing" part of the question at all, though.

They do it's just really really easy to miss. I missed it as well. The guy asking the question says that customer service said using macros to automate light attack weaving was ok. It's kind of nestled in there deep, after that they just talk about animation canceling. Start at 44:28. Now we don't have the original customer service ticket so it's still kind of up in the air.

That's sort of a gotcha question, it's the same as saying we support bombing NK in the following question: "an army soldier said it's ok to bomb North Korea, how fast can the army mobilize to shoot missiles at Kim Jon un?" You never confirm the identity of the first statement to see if they had authority to make a policy decision or if they even knew the policy on hand. Plus you can't tell if the person asking misheard, lied, or did hear it.

So again we never have a ZOS employee on record saying it's ok. As stated by others, they only address the animation canceling part of the question, which is not admission that the first part was true.

Right this is by no means a security to go macro stuff. Like I say, "we don't have the original support ticket to reference". We only have this guys word that Customer service has responded by saying it's ok. And even then I have seen cases where customer service will say one thing and ZOS will say another...with ZOS giving the more sane response. (referring to entering the enemy factions safe areas)

His whole question may have been a "gotcha" but his statement about his knowledge of or experience with customer service is either true or false. I don't know the guy to say either way.

Shunravi

Armitas wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

glak wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source

This is somewhat contradictory to what I have been told and: unapproved third party applications raises a question for me.

Where is the approved third party applications list? I know that it was said at GS that Razor Macros were "ok" with the caveats i mentioned earlier and allowed for the reasons others point out, meaning: the animation can only do so much.

Still the first time I've heard that any macroing, even using keyboard/mouse software, was allowed In any fashion. Do you have any quotable ZOS statements outside of personal affirmations?

All i have is conversations between Paul Sage, Eric Wrobel, the animations team and Guild Leaders.

He said / she said. They need to put out an actual notice like this but specifically for macros:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74534/taking-action-against-cheaters-in-eso

Right now, we have one admin saying no to using macros for only automation but it is buried in a thread. No specific mention of button-/key-binds or addons by this admin, but does mention profile software.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

Varicite wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

Go to 44:10
That part in the video actually says that macroing it is ok also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSjxZZTS1Uw

No it doesn't. They don't even mention macroing.

All they said is that "animation cancelling is part of the game and we want people to be doing it." "Continue to animation cancel and do more damage, it's not a hack or exploit or anything".

They don't actually address the "macroing" part of the question at all, though.

They do it's just really really easy to miss. I missed it as well. The guy asking the question says that customer service said using macros to automate light attack weaving was ok. It's kind of nestled in there deep, after that they just talk about animation canceling. Start at 44:28. Now we don't have the original customer service ticket so it's still kind of up in the air.

That's sort of a gotcha question, it's the same as saying we support bombing NK in the following question: "an army soldier said it's ok to bomb North Korea, how fast can the army mobilize to shoot missiles at Kim Jon un?" You never confirm the identity of the first statement to see if they had authority to make a policy decision or if they even knew the policy on hand. Plus you can't tell if the person asking misheard, lied, or did hear it.

So again we never have a ZOS employee on record saying it's ok. As stated by others, they only address the animation canceling part of the question, which is not admission that the first part was true.

Right this is by no means a security to go macro stuff. Like I say, "we don't have the original support ticket to reference". We only have this guys word that Customer service has responded by saying it's ok. And even then I have seen cases where customer service will say one thing and ZOS will say another...with ZOS giving the more sane response.

His whole question may have been a "gotcha" but his statement about his knowledge of or experience with customer service is either true or false. I don't know the guy to say either way.

So we are in agreement

Darklord_Tiberius

QuadroTony wrote: »

its game mechanics - not an exploit
alot ppl using it too

if you report them ZOS will not react because animation cancelling are allowed, macro too(partially)

Using a marco is an exploit, ZOS has offically stated that multiple times. Go use the seach box function and youll see. My guess you are doing it since you are trying to defend it. Typical.

JTorus

HeroOfNone wrote: »

That's sort of a gotcha question, it's the same as saying we support bombing NK in the following question: "an army soldier said it's ok to bomb North Korea, how fast can the army mobilize to shoot missiles at Kim Jon un?" You never confirm the identity of the first statement to see if they had authority to make a policy decision or if they even knew the policy on hand. Plus you can't tell if the person asking misheard, lied, or did hear it.

So again we never have a ZOS employee on record saying it's ok. As stated by others, they only address the animation canceling part of the question, which is not admission that the first part was true.

That is absurd and you should know it is absurd. Everyone knows it's the Navy that'd launch those missiles, and every sailor knows better than to flap his lips.

Attorneyatlawl

Sharee wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Learn the game mechanics before accusing people of cheating.
To set the record straight, attack weaving and animation canceling are basic gameplay in The Elder Scrolls Online. The person who killed you in that screenshot, and macros aren't needed (or even helpful as they can't compensate for lag or needing to cancel your attacking like you can on your own manually), simply moved behind you, wrecking blowed you (one key press), then began pressing his Ultimate key the instant he saw it fire a second later (a couple of times in case lag made it not register otherwise which is common in PVP), and then a half second later hit his left mouse button for a light attack while hitting his his execute key a few times quickly until it fired off too.

This resulted in a sequence of you being hit without blocking, being launched into the air while stunned and his weapon enchantment hit you ("Befouled Weapon" followed immediately by an Incapacitating Strike (the nightblade ultimate morphed). The Incapacitating Strike was amp'ed 20% by the wrecking blow empower, and you then took 20% higher damage from the nightblade ultimate's unique damage buff on enemy target for 5 seconds from the immediate light attack and execute cast.

The problem i see is that he got hit by three skills within 2 seconds. That should not be possible with a 1.3 second CD between skills.

Timestamps, by the way, from addons are largely meaningless if they are within a couple of seconds of eachother as both latency and when the API registers the combat event both can make them show up in the same second even though they actually were over the course of 1-3 seconds in all.

That would explain it were it not for the fact that he got knocked off the tower and died before hitting the ground(otherwise fall damage would be listed on the death screen). Even if the timestamps are not reliable, it does not take three seconds to fall off a tower.

Judging by the typical animation of one being knocked around by wrecking blow, i would say the attacker had 1-1.5 seconds at most left to land other two skills after the wrecking blow before his target hit the ground below the tower.

A) He died before hitting the ground, so no fall damage.
There is no 1.3 second global cooldown. As I said in the first line of the post... learn the game mechanics .

Varicite

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Learn the game mechanics before accusing people of cheating.
To set the record straight, attack weaving and animation canceling are basic gameplay in The Elder Scrolls Online. The person who killed you in that screenshot, and macros aren't needed (or even helpful as they can't compensate for lag or needing to cancel your attacking like you can on your own manually), simply moved behind you, wrecking blowed you (one key press), then began pressing his Ultimate key the instant he saw it fire a second later (a couple of times in case lag made it not register otherwise which is common in PVP), and then a half second later hit his left mouse button for a light attack while hitting his his execute key a few times quickly until it fired off too.

This resulted in a sequence of you being hit without blocking, being launched into the air while stunned and his weapon enchantment hit you ("Befouled Weapon" followed immediately by an Incapacitating Strike (the nightblade ultimate morphed). The Incapacitating Strike was amp'ed 20% by the wrecking blow empower, and you then took 20% higher damage from the nightblade ultimate's unique damage buff on enemy target for 5 seconds from the immediate light attack and execute cast.

The problem i see is that he got hit by three skills within 2 seconds. That should not be possible with a 1.3 second CD between skills.

Timestamps, by the way, from addons are largely meaningless if they are within a couple of seconds of eachother as both latency and when the API registers the combat event both can make them show up in the same second even though they actually were over the course of 1-3 seconds in all.

That would explain it were it not for the fact that he got knocked off the tower and died before hitting the ground(otherwise fall damage would be listed on the death screen). Even if the timestamps are not reliable, it does not take three seconds to fall off a tower.

Judging by the typical animation of one being knocked around by wrecking blow, i would say the attacker had 1-1.5 seconds at most left to land other two skills after the wrecking blow before his target hit the ground below the tower.

A) He died before hitting the ground, so no fall damage.
There is no 1.3 second global cooldown. As I said in the first line of the post... learn the game mechanics .

A ) So what? He got unloaded on and hit by the Killer's Blade before hitting the ground. Took just over 2 seconds from the moment the Wrecking Blow hit him. Already explained how this happened 3 times now.

B ) There is, which I've plainly shown more than once as well, including a detailed explanation of the order of events complete w/ when those cooldowns would occur and taking new screenies of my own showing exactly what one can expect to achieve through normal animation cancelling, which is ~2 attacks per second.

You, on the other hand, have brought nothing to the table whatsoever.

You are right that this is normal game behavior, but you are not correct about there simply being no cooldown for attacks / skills. It may not be exactly 1.3 seconds (which is why I've always used the ~ symbol to show that it's not exactly that timeframe), but it most definitely does exist.

Attorneyatlawl

Varicite wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Learn the game mechanics before accusing people of cheating.
To set the record straight, attack weaving and animation canceling are basic gameplay in The Elder Scrolls Online. The person who killed you in that screenshot, and macros aren't needed (or even helpful as they can't compensate for lag or needing to cancel your attacking like you can on your own manually), simply moved behind you, wrecking blowed you (one key press), then began pressing his Ultimate key the instant he saw it fire a second later (a couple of times in case lag made it not register otherwise which is common in PVP), and then a half second later hit his left mouse button for a light attack while hitting his his execute key a few times quickly until it fired off too.

This resulted in a sequence of you being hit without blocking, being launched into the air while stunned and his weapon enchantment hit you ("Befouled Weapon" followed immediately by an Incapacitating Strike (the nightblade ultimate morphed). The Incapacitating Strike was amp'ed 20% by the wrecking blow empower, and you then took 20% higher damage from the nightblade ultimate's unique damage buff on enemy target for 5 seconds from the immediate light attack and execute cast.

The problem i see is that he got hit by three skills within 2 seconds. That should not be possible with a 1.3 second CD between skills.

Timestamps, by the way, from addons are largely meaningless if they are within a couple of seconds of eachother as both latency and when the API registers the combat event both can make them show up in the same second even though they actually were over the course of 1-3 seconds in all.

That would explain it were it not for the fact that he got knocked off the tower and died before hitting the ground(otherwise fall damage would be listed on the death screen). Even if the timestamps are not reliable, it does not take three seconds to fall off a tower.

Judging by the typical animation of one being knocked around by wrecking blow, i would say the attacker had 1-1.5 seconds at most left to land other two skills after the wrecking blow before his target hit the ground below the tower.

A) He died before hitting the ground, so no fall damage.
There is no 1.3 second global cooldown. As I said in the first line of the post... learn the game mechanics .

A ) So what? He got unloaded on and hit by the Killer's Blade before hitting the ground. Took just over 2 seconds from the moment the Wrecking Blow hit him. Already explained how this happened 3 times now.

B ) There is, which I've plainly shown more than once as well, including a detailed explanation of the order of events complete w/ when those cooldowns would occur and taking new screenies of my own showing exactly what one can expect to achieve through normal animation cancelling, which is ~2 attacks per second.

You, on the other hand, have brought nothing to the table whatsoever.

You are right that this is normal game behavior, but you are not correct about there simply being no cooldown for attacks / skills. It may not be exactly 1.3 seconds (which is why I've always used the ~ symbol to show that it's not exactly that timeframe), but it most definitely does exist.

I did, actually, and explained it to a "T"... you haven't actually brought a correct explanation yourself, and don't seem to be very open to input as to correction. I'll reiterate after my quote, which you claim didn't exist:

Attorneyatlawl wrote:

Learn the game mechanics before accusing people of cheating.
To set the record straight, attack weaving and animation canceling are basic gameplay in The Elder Scrolls Online. The person who killed you in that screenshot, and macros aren't needed (or even helpful as they can't compensate for lag or needing to cancel your attacking like you can on your own manually), simply moved behind you, wrecking blowed you (one key press), then began pressing his Ultimate key the instant he saw it fire a second later (a couple of times in case lag made it not register otherwise which is common in PVP), and then a half second later hit his left mouse button for a light attack while hitting his his execute key a few times quickly until it fired off too.

This resulted in a sequence of you being hit without blocking, being launched into the air while stunned and his weapon enchantment hit you ("Befouled Weapon" followed immediately by an Incapacitating Strike (the nightblade ultimate morphed). The Incapacitating Strike was amp'ed 20% by the wrecking blow empower, and you then took 20% higher damage from the nightblade ultimate's unique damage buff on enemy target for 5 seconds from the immediate light attack and execute cast.

There isn't a global 1.3 second cooldown, it actually varies by skills used and whether you are light or medium weaving and is not static regardless of skill, so saying it's a guess doesn't mean anything on that when stating it as a set value as you were. There's really nothing more to it: skill 1 hit, followed by another skill at around 1 second in, and another at about 2 seconds in. Latency and general timing resulted in it showing on 3 timestamps, instead of 2, which is logical considering if you start during one second, you pass two additional timestamps even under ideal conditions over the course of the next two seconds.

And yes, him not hitting the ground is a pretty important distinction since someone was commenting that the person died of fall damage . No need to be rude. This is a discussion forum, not a blog, and people will both have different viewpoints and in some cases such as this, correct misinformation.

Varicite

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

There isn't a global 1.3 second cooldown, it actually varies by skills used and whether you are light or medium weaving and is not static regardless of skill, so saying it's a guess doesn't mean anything on that when stating it as a set value as you were. There's really nothing more to it: skill 1 hit, followed by another skill at around 1 second in, and another at about 2 seconds in. Latency and general timing resulted in it showing on 3 timestamps, instead of 2, which is logical considering if you start during one second, you pass two additional timestamps even under ideal conditions over the course of the next two seconds.

And yes, him not hitting the ground is a pretty important distinction since someone was commenting that the person died of fall damage . No need to be rude. This is a discussion forum, not a blog, and people will both have different viewpoints and in some cases such as this, correct misinformation.

You didn't say anything that I didn't in your explanation. Your sticking point seems to be that the cooldown varies by skills used, which doesn't actually contradict anything because I certainly have never said that the cooldown itself was static.

There IS a cooldown on skills, and it is ~1.3 seconds, and light/heavy attacks and abilities ARE on separate timers. That is simply fact.

As for the fall damage consideration, I didn't realize that another poster had erroneously stated that they died to fall damage, which does make that part relevant if you were refuting that.

I wasn't trying to be rude and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I did say that you were correct that this is normal game behavior and only corrected your false statement that "there is no 1.3 second cooldown on skills", which taken at face value sounds very much like you are simply saying that skills have no cooldown.

However, I have never once stated that this was a set value. In every single post I have prefaced this value w/ the tilde symbol (~), which is commonly known to mean "approximately". I have done this because of the variance, not because I am "guessing" (lol).

In your quoted post (or ANY post prior to this last one), you never once explain that you mean that the cooldown on skills / attacks varies. You simply state, and I will quote you again here:

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

There is no 1.3 second global cooldown. As I said in the first line of the post... learn the game mechanics .

In fact, I am the one who explains that the cooldown may not be exactly 1.3 seconds before you ever bothered to elaborate on this very simple statement.

Your statement was extremely misleading and it would be very easy to read it and think that you meant that there is no cooldown on skills, period. Especially since you did not ever bother to actually explain yourself until this point.

I am simply stating facts here, and in a thread chock-full of misinformation, trying to set the record straight on intended game mechanics as clearly as possible.

Attorneyatlawl

Bouvin wrote: »

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Looks like the heavy attack DK build posted over on Tamriel Foundry.

I agree. The big issue here is a single heavy attack doing 15k+ damage.

When average health in cyro is 22k - 25k, that's just too much.

I mean, it's basically like "All I have to do to kill you is two heavy attacks". Is that really what PvP should be, doing to heavy attacks first and winning?

Time to kill is indeed too quick in pvp, but this isn't a game problem, it's a player problem. In fact, you illustrated it right there referring to an average health pool in a vacuum without taking into account resistances and mitigation, stamina and regen for blocking/dodging, heals, damage shields, evasion chance buffs that make attacks miss entirely, ranged interrupts (try to charge a full heavy attack and a good player will often bash attack or use a ranged interrupt like venom arrow or crushing shock on you leaving you stunned and having not cast anything), or any other of the multitudes of ways to mitigate damage in ESO like champion point passives or gear sets. The problem arises from players simply ignoring anything but their damage stats and leaving themselves squishy against other guys doing the same. Meanwhile, the people who do pay attention have chosen to sacrifice a little damage to have many times the survivability . If more people did the same, it would feel less like a Quake round to those who haven't yet. , The tools are in the game to not die to two attacks, but it's up to players to use them. Blaming the game for people not understanding basics like it being bad to have no way to not die immediately when attacked, is absurd.