The latest exploit with animation clipping

Attorneyatlawl

glak wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Lykurgis wrote: »

HeroOfNone wrote: »

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source

This is somewhat contradictory to what I have been told and: unapproved third party applications raises a question for me.

Where is the approved third party applications list? I know that it was said at GS that Razor Macros were "ok" with the caveats i mentioned earlier and allowed for the reasons others point out, meaning: the animation can only do so much.

Still the first time I've heard that any macroing, even using keyboard/mouse software, was allowed In any fashion. Do you have any quotable ZOS statements outside of personal affirmations?

All i have is conversations between Paul Sage, Eric Wrobel, the animations team and Guild Leaders.

He said / she said. They need to put out an actual notice like this but specifically for macros:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/74534/taking-action-against-cheaters-in-eso

Right now, we have one admin saying no to using macros for only automation but it is buried in a thread. No specific mention of button-/key-binds or addons by this admin, but does mention profile software.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1827438/#Comment_1827438

That admin post is as clear and cut/dry as you could ever ask for. Automation other than key binds is explicitly forbidden and is an account violation that can result in suspension or permanent bans. Binding your in game keys like dodge roll to a mouse key instead is called key binding, not macroing .

Casdha

At least I know other folks have read this, Its been copied to a couple of threads.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

That admin post is as clear and cut/dry as you could ever ask for. Automation other than key binds is explicitly forbidden and is an account violation that can result in suspension or permanent bans. Binding your in game keys like dodge roll to a mouse key instead is called key binding, not macroing .

Actually it you use the software that comes with your device to do so, then that is not true. Check the quote from the thread you linked to. The words I highlighted in bold letters covers it all, including key binds if it is not done by the in game menu.

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

Like I pointed out in the other thread. It is not the macro itself that is illegal as much as it is the software that allows you to do it. So if it ain't made by ZOS or covered under the "Add-on Terms" then it is technically illegal to use.

If folks start thinking they are excused because of what they do is different then we will never get any definition in these broad strokes. IMHO I think the distinction should be made between Emotes and actions, one affects game play for other players and one doesn't.

Edit: I'd also like to add that everything I did in my profile (still attatched to my post for review) ZOS had to do in the console versions of the games, but for them it is OK, because they did it.

Mayrael

FFS why we even have discution about "can we use macros or not?". We should never be allowed to use them, or even better it should never work as it is now. U want use macros? Ok but it will give you nothing except of that u wont have to press same skills all the time but it wont be faster. Speeding up attacks via macros is cheating and should be banned if someone says something else its clear that he uses it.

cozmon3c_ESO

So read all that, my god that was a lot.

Let me share my experiences with this lag kill stuff.

Fighting a nightblade and had him on the ropes with 2% life, he was rolling around and i couldnt hit him for like 5 seconds then all of a sudden no animation from him, i had full life and a hardened ward on, i was dead instantly. on my death recap i showed somthing of the nature: ambush, incapacitating strike, heavy attack, killers blade. again not a single animation was shown i was just dead, this wasnt even from stealth. now you could chalk this up to lag but the server was pretty stable then or the real issue is that....

Ulitimates dont share a global cooldown with anything, or atleast incapacitating strike doesnt.

I have also suffered the WB, WB, WB, Executioner on my death recap when the DK at the time didnt even show one animation and i fell over dead instantly with this on my recap. It looked like the dude was just running after me while i was trailing him out. again this could be chalked up to lag but again the server was stable at the time.

Now im not saying people are using lag switches or whatever but i have also seen people doing the bolt escape thing where they dont fall after doing the bolt escapes. one player from another faction was showing it off to me one day, he was bolting through the air and i would just fall. he never told me how he did it though unfortunately.

Overall that NB insane burst combo happens to me all the damn time that it makes me quit the game some nights and i have been pretty loyal to this game over the past couple years. if this stuff doesnt get fixed we will continue to see pvp bleed players even if they release the imperial city. no one likes not having a chance to react to actually have a fight and a chance to recover and win.

Armitas

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Now im not saying people are using lag switches or whatever but i have also seen people doing the bolt escape thing where they dont fall after doing the bolt escapes. one player from another faction was showing it off to me one day, he was bolting through the air and i would just fall. he never told me how he did it though unfortunately.

There is an ingame "lag switch" they are using. ZOS is aware, can replicate it and is working on fixing it. Report that sorc. You won't come across the exploit normally or even accidentally, so these people are doing it on purpose.

rfennell_ESO

What's occurring can not be explained by animation cancelling. Animation cancelling is merely a priority system that operates from lowest to highest: light/heavy attacks<spells/abilities<block, rolldodge, breakfree etc.

Now you can do [spell/ability]->block and depending on the ability (wrecking blow an excellent candidate as it's a lengthy "cast"). That's legal and likely being macroed by many (which isn't legal, or so I've been led to believe).

These attacks in question aren't animation cancelling... they are animation preventing.. simultaneous attacks being exploited through some sort of lag that's not just normal lag. There are primarily two guilds that are using these exploits in their ganking groups, or at least associated with those guilds. Most of us are aware of exactly who they are, as they are the same ones that turn the old lag switch on when they really want to take a keep or when they just want to destroy the game for others.

ZOS better get on the ball and start the banning. Before these exploiters do more damage to the player base than they already have.

Personally, I think the pvp is excellent and enjoyable... so much so I have gotten my brother and a buddy to play. They aren't hardcore and leveling a character is a couple months of their limited free time as they both have young children. When my buddy sees the lagging out by these guilds of malcontented cheats or these instant attacks spamming exploiters and sends me a message of "really makes me want to quit this game"... well, what can I say? Eh ZOS, I brought two paying the monthly sub players in and I have to try and explain why these cheaters are allowed to keep cheating?

Most ridiculous part of it all is if you dare call these cheaters out here... while they post tales of their awesome "lordlike" pvp abilities in these very forums... they get ZOS to remove it. That's laughable....

cozmon3c_ESO

Armitas wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Now im not saying people are using lag switches or whatever but i have also seen people doing the bolt escape thing where they dont fall after doing the bolt escapes. one player from another faction was showing it off to me one day, he was bolting through the air and i would just fall. he never told me how he did it though unfortunately.

There is an ingame "lag switch" they are using. ZOS is aware, can replicate it and is working on fixing it. Report that sorc. You won't come across the exploit normally or even accidentally, so these people are doing it on purpose.

yeah i had no idea about these things going on until i read this thread, i thought he just found an invisible platform because he was able to stand in the middle of the air after the first bolt.

JTorus

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Now im not saying people are using lag switches or whatever but i have also seen people doing the bolt escape thing where they dont fall after doing the bolt escapes. one player from another faction was showing it off to me one day, he was bolting through the air and i would just fall. he never told me how he did it though unfortunately.

There is an ingame "lag switch" they are using. ZOS is aware, can replicate it and is working on fixing it. Report that sorc. You won't come across the exploit normally or even accidentally, so these people are doing it on purpose.

yeah i had no idea about these things going on until i read this thread, i thought he just found an invisible platform because he was able to stand in the middle of the air after the first bolt.

When your kill recap is that 'perfect storm' of attacks that seem to happen in an instant blitz, it is all but a guarantee that they're exploiting with lag.

Wreuntzylla

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that you were playing at 3am in a no lag situation on Thorneblade and an AD NB hit you with the following combination 3 out of 3 times. Further, lets suppose what you see on the screen is the ambush animation and you immediately fall over dead (no other animation is displayed on your screen). The recap+cls shows exactly this.

Second 1: Ambush ~7k
Second 2: Surprise Attack ~6k
Second 2: Heavy Attack ~5K
Second 2: Surprise Attack ~6k

Possible within the intended mechanics of the game? Not only possible to happen, but reliably repeated?

Note that theoretically, you cannot activate an ability that costs magicka or stamina twice until the animation duration associated with the first ability would have otherwise completed.

Further, again for the sake of argument, let's assume that hundreds of surprise attacks performed in series on Mammoths in Riften show a time stamp with a different second for every surprise attack such that surprise attack appears to have an animation time of exactly 1sec.

So, theoretically, absent latency, you should never see two surprise attacks in one second? And even if their is some latency, the combination should not be repeatable?

---

Animation cancelling in ESO as I understand it.

EDIT: I am told abilities do their damage on activation, attacks on clip or finish, and that when you clip a heavy attack out of stealth the attack + the ability receive the stealth bonus. Anyone can confirm?

The time an attack or ability can be clipped depends on the attack or ability.

Actions in ESO activate on release and not on press, so the speed of button presses makes a difference.

Clip Priority: Bash/Block --> Activated Abilities that cost Magicka and Stamina --> Light/Heavy Attacks.

As Bash/Block have the highest priority, their animations cannot be clipped.

Even if you clip an ability animation, you cannot activate another skill that costs magicka or stamina until the full animation of the first activation would have otherwise completed. Many abilities have different animation times.

Similarly, you cannot activate another light/heavy attack until the previous Light/Heavy animation would have otherwise completed. Many weapons have different animation times.

You can clip either an instant ability or an ability with a cast time. You can't clip a channeled ability, or rather, you can clip it, but you won't deal the damage of the full channel.

If you clip a light attack you deal full light attack damage.

If you clip a heavy attack you deal an amount of damage that is scaled based on the time at which it was clipped.

Clipping combinations that work are:

Light/Heavy Attack-->Ability
Ability-->Block/Bash (Lowest DPS)
Light/Heavy Attack-->Block/Bash
Light/Heavy Attack-->Ability-->Bash/Block (Highest DPS)

I do not know if you can clip ultimates or what rules that obeys.

The_Drexill

Print screen is the lag switch, fyi.

noobfury

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

So read all that, my god that was a lot.

Let me share my experiences with this lag kill stuff.

Fighting a nightblade and had him on the ropes with 2% life, he was rolling around and i couldnt hit him for like 5 seconds then all of a sudden no animation from him, i had full life and a hardened ward on, i was dead instantly. on my death recap i showed somthing of the nature: ambush, incapacitating strike, heavy attack, killers blade. again not a single animation was shown i was just dead, this wasnt even from stealth. now you could chalk this up to lag but the server was pretty stable then or the real issue is that....

Ulitimates dont share a global cooldown with anything, or atleast incapacitating strike doesnt.

I have also suffered the WB, WB, WB, Executioner on my death recap when the DK at the time didnt even show one animation and i fell over dead instantly with this on my recap. It looked like the dude was just running after me while i was trailing him out. again this could be chalked up to lag but again the server was stable at the time.

Now im not saying people are using lag switches or whatever but i have also seen people doing the bolt escape thing where they dont fall after doing the bolt escapes. one player from another faction was showing it off to me one day, he was bolting through the air and i would just fall. he never told me how he did it though unfortunately.

Overall that NB insane burst combo happens to me all the damn time that it makes me quit the game some nights and i have been pretty loyal to this game over the past couple years. if this stuff doesnt get fixed we will continue to see pvp bleed players even if they release the imperial city. no one likes not having a chance to react to actually have a fight and a chance to recover and win.

This happens to me all the time also.

The combos typically have the same skills in them like critical rush( I have a screen of a guy hitting me with this 3 time in a row which was unusual for a 2H gap closer) , heavy attack , soul harvest , poison injection , ambush , surprise attack , lethal arrow ( over 22 k in one hit),and focused aim . I haven't had time to post my screens but I always capture whenever I get hit like that. These combos are always up close and usually include one or more bow attacks.

Oh and I do have one screen of a three wrecking blow with no cool down also but those are rare.

You get hit once and your dead without ever seeing any skill animation or movement from the other player. They get close to you and bam your dead without even realizing what happened .

SeptimusDova

noobfurrie sent u message

noobfury

SeptimusDova wrote: »

noobfurrie sent u message

Ty Sir.

Johngo0036

Yes they may have endorsed animation cancelling,
BUT
Using Makros is considered cheating by ZOS and therefore NOT Allowed...

I have been killed by these guys as well..
Frustrating.

Johngo0036

I was insta-killed within half a second,

On the recap was a wrecking blow, light attack, surprise attack and executioner.

all this in less than a second.

sadownik

Since some time i started noticing that very often im dead in 1 second or less. Started taking screenshots but i really dont want to spam them here, especially that there are quite some of them. I really dont care if its lag, macroing, some other exploit, or just playres knowing how to pull that off, but dying in a second and then seeing 3-5 skills on my recap is really frustrating.

Frankly speaking i stopped logging in even to feed horses.

Tankqull

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I was insta-killed within half a second,

On the recap was a wrecking blow, light attack, surprise attack and executioner.

all this in less than a second.

thats absolutly possible.

wreckingblow has its ability delay connected to its CT wich was stealthed from you, enabling him to instantly (queue) the light+sup. attack wich generates the first true ability lockout wich is in between 0.5 and 0.8sec finishing off with the executioner wich generates the next lockout of wich you could not profit due to beeing dead.

so from the mechanic perspective its absolutly fine from the logic side the TTK is completly off the sharts...

Sensesfail13

Tankqull wrote: »

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I was insta-killed within half a second,

On the recap was a wrecking blow, light attack, surprise attack and executioner.

all this in less than a second.

thats absolutly possible.

wreckingblow has its ability delay connected to its CT wich was stealthed from you, enabling him to instantly (queue) the light+sup. attack wich generates the first true ability lockout wich is in between 0.5 and 0.8sec finishing off with the executioner wich generates the next lockout of wich you could not profit due to beeing dead.

so from the mechanic perspective its absolutly fine from the logic side the TTK is completly off the sharts...

Lets not get into semantics here, I dont care if its "possible". Its BS and this burst damage needs to be quelled because its sending the population running from the game and although some people may find that OK others would like to continue playing with a well populated game that is fun to play rather than be spammed with 5+ skills in less than a second where you have no chance of reacting to them and they ignore your armor/spell resist in the process.

Trikki

I think the argument over whether this is legal or not is irrelevant. At this point this thread has almost 12000 views and is on 11 pages of comments. Its obviously affecting a lot of people and should be high on the list of priority and COMMUNICATION from ZoS to make better for a player base that have put up with a hell of a lot of crap (bugs, broken quests, overpowered skills) over a long period of time.

We all know there are glaring class balance issues but they'll never get the attention they deserve until the fundamental bugs and exploits are removed from the game.

Time to man up ZoS and fix your game. The loyal and fair players deserve it.

Wreuntzylla

Sensesfail13 wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Johngo0036 wrote: »

I was insta-killed within half a second,

On the recap was a wrecking blow, light attack, surprise attack and executioner.

all this in less than a second.

thats absolutly possible.

wreckingblow has its ability delay connected to its CT wich was stealthed from you, enabling him to instantly (queue) the light+sup. attack wich generates the first true ability lockout wich is in between 0.5 and 0.8sec finishing off with the executioner wich generates the next lockout of wich you could not profit due to beeing dead.

so from the mechanic perspective its absolutly fine from the logic side the TTK is completly off the sharts...

Lets not get into semantics here, I dont care if its "possible". Its BS and this burst damage needs to be quelled because its sending the population running from the game and although some people may find that OK others would like to continue playing with a well populated game that is fun to play rather than be spammed with 5+ skills in less than a second where you have no chance of reacting to them and they ignore your armor/spell resist in the process.

Should not be possible. Executioner should not be able to fire until the animation from surprise attack would otherwise have finished - 1 sec. And there is a light attack in there.

Ashanne

Look what I got today..how do you guys explain this?

http://postimg.org/image/dj8lgzflx/

all i saw was the biting jabs and dead..I have 20k spell resistance and 13.5 armor..no lag fight

HeroOfNone

Ashanne wrote: »

Look what I got today..how do you guys explain this?

http://postimg.org/image/dj8lgzflx/

all i saw was the biting jabs and dead..I have 20k spell resistance and 13.5 armor..no lag fight

Yup, looks like you got printscreened.

I'll try spending some time in Cyrodiil this weekend getting video on thus stuff as well. Though it's hard to argue that streaming doesn't have some overhead, it's pretty obvious when the same guys have the insta kills. check the youtube and twitch channel for highlights, because of the whole naming and shaming policy I won't be able to post em direct.

AssaultLemming

Armitas wrote: »

I don't know whether it's macro or manual, but the TTL is too short with the current allowable/capable game mechanics. The picture below shows my death log while falling off a resource tower from the initial wrecking blow that you see. You can check my chat log to see the time stamps for each skill. 4 attacks occurring in 2 seconds I died before I reached the ground.

I had to remove the name due to naming/shaming policy, but it is all from one person.

Lol that combat log says it all. 2 seconds : dead

SeptimusDova

What were you doing? Dont you know that Cyrodiil has been over run with Night Blades who are after your lucky charms!!!

JTorus

SeptimusDova wrote: »

What were you doing? Dont you know that Cyrodiil has been over run with Night Blades who are after your lucky charms!!!

To our defense, they *are* magically delicious.

jrkhan

I think I'm going to make a montage of killing players in ~1 second. (Where all abilities land in under 2 seconds) with a blue sword.

You know, no naming and shaming, just pointing out how easy it is with no lag switch or macros with only moderately high weapon damage to kill undergeared players or other glass cannons.

Then I'd like to make a montage of what happens if I try that same thing against a player with 30k+ hit points who is either self sufficent/competant, or in range of heals. (Hint: the player lives much longer than one second, and I'll either get killed quickly or slink away.

Moral will be:
If you build to be vulnerable to burst damage, then your TTL will be very low against an average ganker.
It doesn't mean they are hacking, and it doesn't mean ZOS should buff your hit points.
It means YOU should equip more +hp gear, or even better: Accept that you will occasionally die without having an opportunity to respond.

dsalter

personally i want to see animation canceling/clipping gone. nothing breaks the realistic feeling of ESO like a guy flailing his arms around really fast while shoving his weapon/shield infront of him to somehow attack faster. try that back in the Medieval age.

SeptimusDova

I noticed that I could use the slow time of Vampy Bane with the fast time of Explosive charge to hit the target at the same time. Then jabs. 1 second.. Add some time with WB-LA

JrKhan could the Montage feature Khajiits ?

jrkhan

@SeptimusDova I could try. The population of non AD Khajits is slightly lower. It could work with a Steve Irwin style narrative.
Though if I did that I'd have to include Argonians also.

Behold! The elusive Pact Khajit. Here he is in his natural habitat, contentedly seiging the East wall of Chalman.

SeptimusDova

Awesome Oh i can hear it now especially with the Argonians. Aint she a beaut!! Just look at those scales.