The latest exploit with animation clipping

arena25

<Please don't take this the wrong way, guys, only meant as a joke.>



<Sam and Max (you know, that dog and bunny from that old, old TV show) are in their office, playing "Western Duel". The phone rings.>

Max: I got it.

<Sam hits him with a tear gas canister.>

Max <crying>: I...got...<sob>...it.

<Sam picks up phone.>

Sam: Hello? Yes...sweet mother of Potato Casserole Pie on Butter, we're on our way. <Hangs up>
Max: Who was it? Was it the Girl Scouts' lawyers again?
Sam: No, that was the commissioner. And you will not believe which famous group of players is on the Most Wanted list today.
Max: AC/DC? No, we just locked them up...hmm...was it Journey...OH, WAIT, it's Trinity.
Sam: No, the Exploiting Nightblades. Apparently, they have evaded all capture, as the police start to put them in handcuffs, and then suddenly they get hit with a poisoned dart and go to the hospital.
Max: So let me guess...we need to arrest them and remove their supply of darts.
Sam: In a way, yes. We need to basically stop these bands of nightblades and put them behind bars.
Max: Can we burn down the dart store after? I want to see how poison reacts with arson.
Sam: You crack me up, little bunny.

Varicite

wat is this i dont even

Emma_Overload

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

There already is a 1.3 second GCD on all abilities.

Animation cancelling is possible because light attacks, heavy attacks, and dodge rolls are on their OWN GCD timer, whereas abilities (skills) are on a separate 1.3 second GCD timer.

Ah, I didn't know that.

So, is there a reason they don't put LA, HA, and DRs on the GCD? It seems like a simple fix, from my uneducated perspective.

I can tell you exactly why: If light/heavy attacks and abilities shared the same GCD, no one would ever make light/heavy attacks, because they lower your DPS and have very few beneficial side effects (the heavy attack off-balance knockdown is the exception.)

Sacadon

Varicite wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Macros alone have no shot of doing what some people are describing in this thread. Macros are a hindrance more than anything in PVP because of the horrible input lag.

What? The? Sigh.

If people like Bull claim they can weave all these attacks to hit within a couple seconds, why exactly would a macro have trouble?

If what you say is true, nobody would be able to animation cancel because of the horrible input lag. Yet, here we are.

Why make baseless assumptions about peoples claims? Obviously threads like this are going to include a lot of uninformed posts from people jumping on the bandwagon, that shouldn't discredit the claims of everybody. Just because you haven't witnessed an abundance of macro exploitation first hand, doesn't mean it never happens and you need to look for alternative reasons for why people complain about it.

Should I look for alternative reasons why you are trying to blame the complainers? Should I make baseless assumptions that you are in fact a macro hacker and are desperately trying to squash any discussion that brings it up? No, I shouldn't, because baseless assumptions are a waste of everyones time.

If Bull or anyone else posts proof of himself using animation cancelling OR macros (or both) to achieve more attacks than the game is hard-coded to allow in a span of time, then I will stop blaming the ignorant.

I'm talking about 4-5 attacks in under 1 second. Because it's been well-established that you can easily achieve 2 attacks per second via normal game mechanics.

That has ALWAYS been the case.

There's nothing baseless about explaining to the masses that what's being claimed by the OP and many others in this thread is simply not possible using the mechanics that they are blaming.

@Erock25 is stating fact. You can NOT do this w/ macros alone. You can NOT do this w/ animation cancelling.

Sure wish more would actually read your posts rather than proliferating more nonsense and talking about what they think they know vs. what they are absolutely certain of, or atleast distinguishing the difference. Hopefully at this point you've a few canned responses prewritten or in drafts so you can just copy+paste.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I can tell you exactly why: If light/heavy attacks and abilities shared the same GCD, no one would ever make light/heavy attacks, because they lower your DPS and have very few beneficial side effects (the heavy attack off-balance knockdown is the exception.)

Ah, okay. Makes sense.

So, how do they find a happy medium between combat fluidity and animation exploitation?

Varicite

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I can tell you exactly why: If light/heavy attacks and abilities shared the same GCD, no one would ever make light/heavy attacks, because they lower your DPS and have very few beneficial side effects (the heavy attack off-balance knockdown is the exception.)

Ah, okay. Makes sense.

So, how do they find a happy medium between combat fluidity and animation exploitation?

They already did that. You just don't like it. <.<

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

They already did that. You just don't like it. <.<

Wait, what?

I'm still leveling my main after a REALLY long hiatus. I haven't even bothered to PvP with him yet.

I was just operating under the assumption that cramming several damaging attacks together was a bad thing, based on what some of the player base is saying.

If I'm wrong, I'd be glad to be corrected. But I wasn't pitching a fit about it, I'm just genuinely curious in the interest of "what do I have to look forward to when I decide to hit Cyrodiil?".

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

P.S.: I freely admit I'm operating on hearsay. I don't have a dog in the fight just yet, if you'll pardon the pun. LOL!.

Varicite

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

P.S.: I freely admit I'm operating on hearsay. I don't have a dog in the fight just yet, if you'll pardon the pun. LOL!.

Ah, forgive me then.

The current combat IS their happy medium, and to better accommodate animation cancelling, they actually shortened many of the combat animations in the game for update 1.6.

Because of many of the factors I've already mentioned (abilities already being limited by their GCDs, their desire for fluid "snappy" combat, alternative methods leading to clunkier gameplay, etc), the devs are perfectly fine w/ the current iteration of combat for now.

noobfury

I can also testify to having this happen to me . I have been toggling and taking screen shots each time I die to kind of get an idea of which attacks are being used and there are without a doubt some that are casting multiple within a few seconds but it just seems like one big hit. It's like they all hit at the same time.

Shunravi

noobfury wrote: »

I can also testify to having this happen to me . I have been toggling and taking screen shots each time I die to kind of get an idea of which attacks are being used and there are without a doubt some that are casting multiple within a few seconds but it just seems like one big hit. It's like they all hit at the same time.

I would love to see those screenshots

Valymer

@Varicite I think what people really want to say is that in designing for maximum fluidity in combat, Zenimax has reduced the time to kill to a laughable state. Well OK, some people use the word "exploit" which is not the correct word, except perhaps in the pure dictionary sense of the word (not the additional connotations of "cheating" that gamers usually ascribe to it), but my guess is that most people are just frustrated with the ridiculous bursts that certain builds can pull off now.

If we were all playing on a LAN with next to zero latency, maybe it wouldn't matter so much. But with the lag situation the way it is in ESO, it makes PvP fairly comical. It reminds me a little of head shots on FPS games, except those actually take a large amount of player skill, whereas mashing a three-button combo in ESO takes about as much skill as doing a special attack on Street Fighter (basically none).

So while most people appear to not truly understand animation cancelling, they do realize that something is terribly wrong with the current state of PvP combat. But that problem is not caused by animation cancelling, it is merely exacerbated by it.

I think that perhaps the only way to fix it would be to boost everyone's hitpoints in Cyrodiil by a significant amount, much more than the current battle buff. I really can't see any other way to increase the TTK other than reducing our damage, and no one is going to like that.

Varicite

Valymer wrote: »

@Varicite I think what people really want to say is that in designing for maximum fluidity in combat, Zenimax has reduced the time to kill to a laughable state.

The current TTK has nothing to do w/ animation cancelling, though. This is easily proven by looking at the TTK prior to 1.6's stat inflation and removal of softcaps as compared to post-1.6 TTKs. Animation cancelling has existed and been widely used since beta.

If this is what people are upset about, they are simply pointing their fingers in the wrong direction, as I've stated time and again throughout this thread and others.

Valymer wrote: »

So while most people appear to not truly understand animation cancelling, they do realize that something is terribly wrong with the current state of PvP combat. But that problem is not caused by animation cancelling, it is merely exacerbated by it.

I think that perhaps the only way to fix it would be to boost everyone's hitpoints in Cyrodiil by a significant amount, much more than the current battle buff. I really can't see any other way to increase the TTK other than reducing our damage, and no one is going to like that.

I also agree that a lot of the current TTK situation would be partially alleviated by higher health pools and perhaps bolstered defenses. It's clear that burst from stamina builds stands head and shoulders above that of magicka builds, due to the prevalence of Nirnhoned armor easily raising spell resistance to the hardcap (50% reduction) and lack of accessible methods of reducing spell resistance.

In comparison, Reinforced doesn't even come close to providing the type of defenses that Nirnhoned does against physical damage, and there is a huge prevalence of armor-reducing skills in the game. If you put on a set of Nirnhoned armor and are attacked by a magicka builds, their TTK is extended by quite a lot.

I think that boosting defensive stats a bit would act in much the same manner, raising TTKs and helping to curb the burst that many players are complaining about.

However, this is a separate issue than what's really being discussed in this thread, which sound more like lag spikes catching up or desyncing issues. There is also the matter of some players having figured out a way to consistently deal a greater amount of damage than should be possible using legitimate mechanics blurring the issue.

All of these reasons can easily be blamed for the problems being related in this thread. However, animation cancelling and macros (which have been called out excessively) can NOT be blamed for these issues, which I feel I've explained thoroughly many times already.

Valymer

Yes it really is a combination of factors, as you mention...lag coupled with the removal of softcaps, plus animation cancelling (which I agree is nothing new, but is much more powerful now with uncapped, stacked weapon damage) all adds up to the insane TTK that we have now in Cyrodiil.

To blame just one of these factors is not a sound way of looking at the problem. In fact since animation cancelling appears here to stay, we need to look at other avenues of increasing the TTK. I sincerely hope that Zenimax is considering doing just that in the first major update after console launch, because it is certainly driving people from PvP in its current state.

noobfury

Shunravi wrote: »

noobfury wrote: »

I can also testify to having this happen to me . I have been toggling and taking screen shots each time I die to kind of get an idea of which attacks are being used and there are without a doubt some that are casting multiple within a few seconds but it just seems like one big hit. It's like they all hit at the same time.

I would love to see those screenshots

ASAP . Do we have to edit out the name of the player if we post here ?

Varicite

noobfury wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

noobfury wrote: »

I can also testify to having this happen to me . I have been toggling and taking screen shots each time I die to kind of get an idea of which attacks are being used and there are without a doubt some that are casting multiple within a few seconds but it just seems like one big hit. It's like they all hit at the same time.

I would love to see those screenshots

ASAP . Do we have to edit out the name of the player if we post here ?

Yes, due to the naming and shaming policy. Easiest to just black them out.

Armitas

I was just told how people are able to bolt through the air without falling. There is a way to intentionally lag the server client side with 1 button. This may work with this latest exploit to stack attacks. It's a simple 2 button macro.

So yeah people are getting lag switches with 1 button press and macroing them and telling people it's just lag. I'm pretty disgusted.

redeye_38rwb17_ESO

On a side note, this thread has had me reading for over an hour lol, kinda shocked ZoS has not chimed in on this one by now, especialy such a hot topic with over 7k views.

/nudgenudgeZoS

C'mon and sack up and put an end to the debate plz and enlighten us with an official response eh? I think all the time and effort everyone has put into this thread deserves it, nay demands it!

cheers

OtarTheMad

Armitas wrote: »

I don't know whether it's macro or manual, but the TTL is too short with the current allowable/capable game mechanics. The picture below shows my death log while falling off a resource tower from the initial wrecking blow that you see. You can check my chat log to see the time stamps for each skill. 4 attacks occurring in 2 seconds I died before I reached the ground.

I had to remove the name due to naming/shaming policy, but it is all from one person.

This is a good example of what is happening. If you look at the bottom left you can see the combat log and it's detailed breakdown of the damage taken and when (down to the millisecond) and you can see that on multiple occasions he was hit with multiple attacks... literally at once.

Varicite

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I don't know whether it's macro or manual, but the TTL is too short with the current allowable/capable game mechanics. The picture below shows my death log while falling off a resource tower from the initial wrecking blow that you see. You can check my chat log to see the time stamps for each skill. 4 attacks occurring in 2 seconds I died before I reached the ground.

I had to remove the name due to naming/shaming policy, but it is all from one person.

This is a good example of what is happening. If you look at the bottom left you can see the combat log and it's detailed breakdown of the damage taken and when (down to the millisecond) and you can see that on multiple occasions he was hit with multiple attacks... literally at once.

Those aren't milliseconds...

It's hour:minute:second.

He's using CLS, which doesn't count by milliseconds. I actually broke this combat log down earlier in the thread, and it's entirely possible to do w/out an exploit of any kind.

Aevric

redeye_38rwb17_ESO wrote: »

On a side note, this thread has had me reading for over an hour lol, kinda shocked ZoS has not chimed in on this one by now, especialy such a hot topic with over 7k views.

/nudgenudgeZoS

C'mon and sack up and put an end to the debate plz and enlighten us with an official response eh? I think all the time and effort everyone has put into this thread deserves it, nay demands it!

cheers

They've all been too busy for the last year, getting the console versions ready.
I'd be willing to wager that after console launch many, many dev hours will be needed to attend to console version issues, leaving us PC users in a void for another 6 months.

Paulington

OtarTheMad wrote: »

This is a good example of what is happening. If you look at the bottom left you can see the combat log and it's detailed breakdown of the damage taken and when (down to the millisecond) and you can see that on multiple occasions he was hit with multiple attacks... literally at once.

Erm, no.

In fact, he is actually hit seven times before death. If we ignore the 18:28:58 hit as he likely regenerated to full after that, he gets hit six times in two seconds, that isn't outside the realm of possibility and is in fact totally possible and replicable.

Whilst I have no doubt people are macroing/exploiting to do huge damage in very small amounts of time, this is not one of those situations.

Varicite

Paulington wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

This is a good example of what is happening. If you look at the bottom left you can see the combat log and it's detailed breakdown of the damage taken and when (down to the millisecond) and you can see that on multiple occasions he was hit with multiple attacks... literally at once.

Erm, no.

In fact, he is actually hit seven times before death. If we ignore the 18:28:58 hit as he likely regenerated to full after that, he gets hit six times in two seconds, that isn't outside the realm of possibility and is in fact totally possible and replicable.

Whilst I have no doubt people are macroing/exploiting to do huge damage in very small amounts of time, this is not one of those situations.

He is actually only hit 4 times in 2 seconds, which follows perfectly w/ normal mechanics.

Befouled Weapon is just an enchant proc and doesn't count.

So basically he gets hit w/ Wrecking Blow (cast time longer than gcd), then Incap Strike.

This is followed by a Light Attack animation cancelled into Killer's Blade. There is actually only 1 instance of animation cancelling in that entire death recap, which is LA + Killer's Blade.

But yes, you're absolutely right, there's nothing wonky at all about that screenshot.

OtarTheMad

Varicite wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I don't know whether it's macro or manual, but the TTL is too short with the current allowable/capable game mechanics. The picture below shows my death log while falling off a resource tower from the initial wrecking blow that you see. You can check my chat log to see the time stamps for each skill. 4 attacks occurring in 2 seconds I died before I reached the ground.

I had to remove the name due to naming/shaming policy, but it is all from one person.

This is a good example of what is happening. If you look at the bottom left you can see the combat log and it's detailed breakdown of the damage taken and when (down to the millisecond) and you can see that on multiple occasions he was hit with multiple attacks... literally at once.

Those aren't milliseconds...

It's hour:minute:second.

He's using CLS, which doesn't count by milliseconds. I actually broke this combat log down earlier in the thread, and it's entirely possible to do w/out an exploit of any kind.

realized that after I posted it lol... kept it in there anyway... screw it. My bad. Shouldn't post while extremely tired, never works out.

Armitas

Yep confirmed. It works with surprise strike, sap and bolt escape. All it takes is one button and anyone has their own lag switch to exploit the system and combine strikes ignoring the GCD. ZOS if you send me a note I'll tell you how.

When my friend tried it for confirmation, bolt killed his ping so this may be part of the source of all the cyrodiil lag. I also have a video I can link of several sorcs doing this same exploit.

Razzak

Varicite wrote: »

Naivefanboi wrote: »

psufan5 wrote: »

Noticed this heavily the last few nights in PVP. You attack someone, they turn and instantly kill you. They hit you upwards of 6 times in a half a second. I believe this has something to do with macros and blocking to clip the animations. A simple form of this can be tested with the light attacks with the bow - perform a light attack, the immediately block. Do this rapidly and you become a machine gun. Add in a macro program, and you have a built in exploit.

Now some people in PVP have figured out a way to do this with heavy attacks, surprise attack (nightblade power), and dawn breaker. You literally die in less than half a second while being hit 5+ times almost instantly.

I thought maybe it was lag but it was the same few players doing it over and over again. They killed 3 people who happened upon them in a matter of seconds and there was no lag.

These exploits are growing tiresome . All we can do is report the people using them I guess?

Last i heard all that stuff is "intended ", they just forgot it in the tutorial in the game lol

Hitting somebody "6 times in 1 second" is never intended. But there hasn't been a single post actually showing this yet, soooo.

Not that it doesn't happen through some means, but it's clearly not due to animation cancelling.

Why is is so "clear"? The lack of evidence to support an exploit is not an evidence of exploit not existing.

Varicite

Razzak wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Naivefanboi wrote: »

psufan5 wrote: »

Noticed this heavily the last few nights in PVP. You attack someone, they turn and instantly kill you. They hit you upwards of 6 times in a half a second. I believe this has something to do with macros and blocking to clip the animations. A simple form of this can be tested with the light attacks with the bow - perform a light attack, the immediately block. Do this rapidly and you become a machine gun. Add in a macro program, and you have a built in exploit.

Now some people in PVP have figured out a way to do this with heavy attacks, surprise attack (nightblade power), and dawn breaker. You literally die in less than half a second while being hit 5+ times almost instantly.

I thought maybe it was lag but it was the same few players doing it over and over again. They killed 3 people who happened upon them in a matter of seconds and there was no lag.

These exploits are growing tiresome . All we can do is report the people using them I guess?

Last i heard all that stuff is "intended ", they just forgot it in the tutorial in the game lol

Hitting somebody "6 times in 1 second" is never intended. But there hasn't been a single post actually showing this yet, soooo.

Not that it doesn't happen through some means, but it's clearly not due to animation cancelling.

Why is is so "clear"? The lack of evidence to support an exploit is not an evidence of exploit not existing.

Read the thread and maybe you will understand why it is so clear.

If not, then you are just in denial anyway and a tin foil hat may be more helpful to you than actual facts.

/shrug

glak

Armitas wrote: »

Yep confirmed. It works with surprise strike, soul tether and bolt escape. All it takes is one button and anyone has their own lag switch to exploit the system and combine strikes ignoring the GCD. ZOS if you send me a note I'll tell you how.

When my friend tried it for confirmation, bolt killed his ping so this may be part of the source of all the cyrodiil lag. I also have a video I can link of several sorcs doing this same exploit.

Conceivably this works with any long GCD, and thus may include Toppling Charge'a 20-second GCD.

HeroOfNone

Lykurgis wrote: »

There's a video guide on animation canceling. It's ruled legal by ZOS because they can't really fix it, lazy, but ya...it's all good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTb2YpuRsP4

About macros, they told people at the guild summit (and I believe here on the forums as well as ESO live) that programs like Razors Synapse, Logitech G15 keyboards ect were ok to use. Obviously botting is not so if a macro leads to that, well then thats another matter.
I have seen people trading Macros in zone/guild chat since the game launch and have yet to hear of a single person banned for it.
Using a "weave" macro is a pretty common practice and i seriously doubt that many (if any) high leader board guilds/groups abstain from using them in some form or fashion.

Almost over looked this comment. I'd like an extra quote regarding developers saying using any programs to macro is ok. The only comment I have on animation canceling and macroing from the summit was this

Animation and attack priority is currently driven by gameplay mechanics, and animation design is created to support the gameplay features. Animation cancelling with macro usage is “cheating”, but the way that attacks currently interact is intended, but will hopefully be improved in the future.

Source http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

Maybe someone @ZOS could clarify?

HeroOfNone

Oh, and @Lykurgis it seems ZOS changed their stance?

ZOS_MollyH wrote: »

Hello @Casdha !

To clarify this a bit, using a third party program - in this case it would be your keyboard's profile software - to perform any game function is a violation of the ESOTU terms of service.

The phrase "change the game play experience" includes having third party software macros that automatically perform emotes. The game play experience in this case would be that it is designed to have you - the player - performing these actions manually, and by using a macro you are changing the game play experience.

Using macros, and using unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic is a violation of the Terms of Service, and as such continuing to do so would put you at risk for having your account actioned.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1826830#Comment_1826830

If someone heard otherwise please go ahead and cite a source