The latest exploit with animation clipping

Cuyler

QuadroTony wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

its game mechanics - not an exploit
alot ppl using it too

if you report them ZOS will not react because animation cancelling are allowed, macro too(partially)

Yes, animation canceling is not an exploit...but when you take to using macros to accomplish it in less than 1 second then it IS an exploit and specifically against the TOS. Stop trollin.

im not trolling

simple macro to push few buttons are not detectable
iy actually bhaviour like people push the same buttons on keyboard

im playing more than year now and i dont know any cases when ppl was banned for macroses
its simple

no matter macros from your mouse driver or from additional soft
ZOS will start to recognize them only ifthey add special warden to track processes on your PC
and they will not do this because its not allowed by many laws in many countries

You may want to be familiar with this:

"In addition to the restrictions, conditions and limitations set forth in the ZeniMax Terms of Service and the ZeniMax Code of Conduct, the license granted to you in this Agreement is subject to the conditions, restrictions and limitations set forth in Sections 1, 2, and this Section 4 of this Agreement (collectively, the “License Limitations”). Any use of the Game in violation of the License Limitations will be regarded as an infringement of ZeniMax’s copyrights in and to the Game and will be a breach of this Agreement. You agree that you will not and will not assist any other person, under any circumstances:
Snip
•
use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Game or adversely impact any other persons playing of the Game or his/her experience of playing the Game;"

I wager that macroing one button to perform multiple actions simultaneously could be interpreted as automation software. In addition, they don't need to monitor your PC processes, they simply need to look at the combat logs to see if you're applying multiple attacks/cancels in the amount of time no human being could reasonably execute. Finally, it was clarified via multiple live interviews that macroing like this IS AN EXPLOIT.

Edit: you haven't seen anyone banned for it yet, probably because it hasn't been a huge issue. But this now seems to be becoming an issue in Cyro, especially if players are promoting it's use here on the forums.

psufan5

Armitas wrote: »

I don't know whether it's macro or manual, but the TTL is too short with the current allowable/capable game mechanics. The picture below shows my death log while falling off a resource tower from the initial wrecking blow that you see. You can check my chat log to see the time stamps for each skill. 4 attacks occurring in 2 seconds.

All by the same person?

Majax

This exploit happened to me a numerous time in Azura Star campaign and always by the same Yellows (1 sorc and 1 NB).
Was aroung 100%-90% life and die in 1,5s without seeing any spell.
After checking death recap they are a lot of spells for a total of 25K+ dmg and i know its impossible in 1,5s.

Each fight versus that guys always turn in the same scenario : i'm winning fight and i'm dieing in 1,5s...

Zos need to really look at this *** because each day more and more players begin to use that exploit or macro and i'm not the only one in my guild and alliance to suffer that.

crowfl56

Look folks all pvp game's are full of cheaters (exploiters) and they are pro's at finding any way they can to get an advantage, this game is full of these kids, deal with it because its not going to go away.

Its takes a very mature person to just ignore the wrong doer's and play, gets difficult but when it gets to frustrating I just log.

psufan5

Majax wrote: »

This exploit happened to me a numerous time in Azura Star campaign and always by the same Yellows (1 sorc and 1 NB).
Was aroung 100%-90% life and die in 1,5s without seeing any spell.
After checking death recap they are a lot of spells for a total of 25K+ dmg and i know its impossible in 1,5s.

Each fight versus that guys always turn in the same scenario : i'm winning fight and i'm dieing in 1,5s...

Zos need to really look at this *** because each day more and more players begin to use that exploit or macro and i'm not the only one in my guild and alliance to suffer that.

Yep, exactly what happens.

Armitas

psufan5 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I don't know whether it's macro or manual, but the TTL is too short with the current allowable/capable game mechanics. The picture below shows my death log while falling off a resource tower from the initial wrecking blow that you see. You can check my chat log to see the time stamps for each skill. 4 attacks occurring in 2 seconds.

All by the same person?

Yes, the entire log is the same person. I had to remove the name cause of naming/shaming.

Armitas

Could everyone experiencing this get the add-on "Combat Log statistics". Go into the settings for it and turn on the time stamp. When you experience it get a screen shot like the one I posted earlier in the thread so we show proof of it. Make a copy and remove the name on the copies log so you don't get in trouble and post it in this thread.

Cuyler

crowfl56 wrote: »

Look folks all pvp game's are full of cheaters (exploiters) and they are pro's at finding any way they can to get an advantage, this game is full of these kids, deal with it because its not going to go away.

Its takes a very mature person to just ignore the wrong doer's and play, gets difficult but when it gets to frustrating I just log.

“The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything” - Albert Einstein

I had to do it sorry....

JTorus

I suspect ZOS has no real means in which to track this sorta thing internally. Just to break it down....

{Packet header}[DataBegin] | Jtorus_Attacks_@Target = Ambush | Jtorus_Attacks_@Target = LightAttack | Jtorus_Attacks_@Target=Ability | Jtorus_Block | Jtorus_Attacks_@Target = LightAttack | Jtorus_Attacks_@Target=Ability | [DataEnd]


Versus

{Packet header}[DataBegin] | (10:05:30.50) Jtorus_Attacks_@Target = Ambush | (10:05:32.01) Jtorus_Attacks_@Target = LightAttack | (10:05:33.31) Jtorus_Attacks_@Target=Ability | (10:05:33.61) Jtorus_Block [DataEnd]


I've illustrated two things here, the first obvious thing being a time stamp on the second example while the first one has none. A quick glance shows that the second example may be using macros to exploit animation cancelling mechanics. Additionally as a means to represent datagram limits, I restricted the amount of characters in the data portion to 200 or less (without fragmenting).

Quickly you're going to see that the amount of information needed to transmit between server and user will increase due to the timestamp being transmitted along with the ability. Transpose this to a broader scale and you can see the increased overhead (on the MegaServer) side of things just to receive the additional information.

Now lets look at this example.

{Packet header}[DataBegin] | (10:05:30.50) Jtorus_Attacks_@Target = Ambush | (10:05:32.01) Jtorus_Attacks_@Target = LightAttack | (10:05:33.31) Jtorus_Attacks_@Target=Ability | (10:05:33.61) Jtorus_Block [DataEnd]

Allowances for animation cancelling aside and the required sequencing, The server would have to recognize (in red) that a human being can not manipulate their keyboard or mouse that swiftly. It would have to identify and then either cancel our or flag the player for macroing. Either ZOS does not have this capacity, or they are not utilizing it. Couple that with a lack of anti-cheat macroing software run on the user's side, people can easily exploit with little repercussion.

Currently the only system in place to discourage this is reporting other players, and that system is failing to a degree that would make Detroit's Police force look amicable.

Lifsteinn

Exploit, cheat or whatever you want to name it.
This is something that is breaking the game.

QuadroTony

i prefer them to concentrate on lags in Cyro. not on the useless reports for undetectable marcoses
thats all

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

I will agree with Lifsteinn.

This exploit that ZOS condones because they cannot fix it, is killing the game. Full stop.
And the only way to fix it is to put cooldowns to everything, as they SHOULD.

That shows a lot of what to expect in the future, and I for once, after playing the game since early access, and before that since Jan 2014 beta, decided that TESO has come to an end.

Ain't worth my time, regardless if it is B2P/F2P or not.

QuadroTony

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

I will agree with Lifsteinn.

This exploit that ZOS condones because they cannot fix it, is killing the game. Full stop.
And the only way to fix it is to put cooldowns to everything, as they SHOULD.

That shows a lot of what to expect in the future, and I for once, after playing the game since early access, and before that since Jan 2014 beta, decided that TESO has come to an end.

Ain't worth my time, regardless if it is B2P/F2P or not.

if you quit - can i get your stuff?

technohic

crowfl56 wrote: »

Look folks all pvp game's are full of cheaters (exploiters) and they are pro's at finding any way they can to get an advantage, this game is full of these kids, deal with it because its not going to go away.

Its takes a very mature person to just ignore the wrong doer's and play, gets difficult but when it gets to frustrating I just log.

Yeah...no. You don;t just log out and let them continue on. You sure don't start shaming them on the forums because that would be immature. But it would be the responsible thing to do, to submit this to ZOS with whatever evidence you have. Just makes it harder and harder to enjoy things if you let those that spoil it just carry on.

It's also important to distinguish between animation cancelling that has been supported by ZOS; and some sort of exploitation of that which goes beyond what they saw animation cancelling as. Animation cancelling itself has been said to not be an exploit; the ability to fire off multiple attacks in a single instant would be exploiting the mechanic of animation cancelling.

Xeven

Just going to chime in and confirm this happened to me. With full health and full shields I died instantly from what appeared to only be a chain pull from a solo DK. The recap however was full of abilities that were never animated, and furthermore could not possibly have been used in less than a second without some sort of macro exploiting this bug.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

technohic wrote: »

It's also important to distinguish between animation cancelling that has been supported by ZOS;

Is different thing "we cannot fix this so is ok" and different "we support it"

ZOS has failed to fix that issue, and the more people delve into the API the more we see such exploits by using macros.

If that was their idea of game, it is deserved to die a soon horible death. And yes that comes from me, who supported this game over the last 16 months, and still pays his sub.

QuadroTony

i can say change all gear in one second with addon, or craft 100 potions with addon while you not pressing any buttons and AFK

cheat too?

but its allowed by ZOS because they wrote public API for this addons

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

There is even add-on to keybind the Q items.

However these YOU mentioned do not make Cyrodiil a fragfest and unfair.

The keybinded Q items (which I know people to use to spam invisibility and spell drinks), along sire the animation cancelling are destroying the game.

DivZero

QuadroTony wrote: »

...

RedTalon

That is a very old one also, glad its getting posted about

QuadroTony

no, i am an archer

psufan5

QuadroTony wrote: »

i can say change all gear in one second with addon, or craft 100 potions with addon while you not pressing any buttons and AFK

cheat too?

but its allowed by ZOS because they wrote public API for this addons

None of which work in combat.

Loves_guars

QuadroTony wrote: »

its game mechanics - not an exploit
alot ppl using it too

if you report them ZOS will not react because animation cancelling are allowed, macro too(partially)

If this is true, it sounds extremely discouraging for players looking to start with pvp. It certainly puts me off. They should fix all this.

psufan5

cecibergesnrb18_ESO wrote: »

QuadroTony wrote: »

its game mechanics - not an exploit
alot ppl using it too

if you report them ZOS will not react because animation cancelling are allowed, macro too(partially)

If this is true, it sounds extremely discouraging for players looking to start with pvp. It certainly puts me off. They should fix all this.

Don't listen to that guy, he has no idea what he's talking about. Macro clipping is against their rules.

Lord_Kreegan

Davadin wrote: »

Lord_Kreegan wrote: »

Yes, there are people using macros and exploits, etc.

HOWEVER...

When you see a recap of damage done to your character, you aren't necessarily seeing what was JUST DONE to you.

You're seeing what has JUST BEEN REPORTED to you.

If you pay attention and you have been paying attention from Beta, ZOS has a "few problems" with its netcode.

In order to reduce the number of messages being sent, it is pretty obvious that they're collecting information and then sending a consolidated message in a burst. So, when you see a recap that shows several attacks that appear to have happened all at once, you're actually seeing what has occurred over several seconds of time.

After collecting a lot of data and doing a lot of analyses, I'm pretty sure of this. Actually, I have no doubts whatsoever

Unfortunately, what this means is that your client doesn't show you the animations for all of the various attacks... and you die without even knowing that you've been attacked.

Welcome to ESO... flim-flam extraordinaire.

There's that, yes, but there's a LOT of macro-ing too. At least in NA.

I could be OUT OF COMBAT for... forever... then I spot a guy, he goes on stealth. I turned around, and POW. Dead. 4-5 in less than half a sec.

This is macro. ZOS should try to figure that out.

I use animation cancelling a lot, and we got it officially, is OK.

But when you get 3-5 hits in less than half a second - literally, it looks like I used the /die command or something. It just pops. Then we got an issue.

Ex: 2-H skill, Executioner will pretty much cancels anything. And block (right click hold) will too. And if u use a fast Light Attack (to cancel, say, block's unblock animation), mix-n-matching those 3 will allow you to be a machine gun.

I don't have a prog keyboard so I can't test, but if I just go as fast as my fingers go, then yeah, it's possible.


Bigger problem is when people macro with a HUGE damage (like Bow's Snipe), n instead of a machine gun, you get a nuke. I don't know how that works, but yes, Snipe can be macro'd to cancel the animation and spammed.


Nothing to do with lag or netcode, although yes, those happens a lot too on some nights.

I'm very aware that macroing is going on... I'm just saying that sometimes what we may perceive as macroing or cheating isn't what we think it is... although what we are experiencing is just as bad since we can't react to attacks we don't see.

My "favorite" instance of it was arrogant jerk in a public dungeon. He was continually invisible (you yourself can see invisible players in PvE) and moving at an impossible speed and one-shotting all mobs, to include bosses.

Obviously, he was cheating... I reported him, FWIW, but I have no way of knowing whether or not ZOS took action.

In any case, I've given up on PvP. Until ZOS fixes their netcode problems, there's no sense in doing it... not unless you're going to cheat, too. And that's not my style...

Xjcon

crowfl56 wrote: »

Look folks all pvp game's are full of cheaters (exploiters) and they are pro's at finding any way they can to get an advantage, this game is full of these kids, deal with it because its not going to go away.

Its takes a very mature person to just ignore the wrong doer's and play, gets difficult but when it gets to frustrating I just log.

People should just deal with cheaters? This game is rampant with EXPLOITS, macros are all over the leader boards in pve and pvp.

Jaerlach

psufan5 wrote: »

Noticed this heavily the last few nights in PVP. You attack someone, they turn and instantly kill you. They hit you upwards of 6 times in a half a second. I believe this has something to do with macros and blocking to clip the animations. A simple form of this can be tested with the light attacks with the bow - perform a light attack, the immediately block. Do this rapidly and you become a machine gun. Add in a macro program, and you have a built in exploit.

Now some people in PVP have figured out a way to do this with heavy attacks, surprise attack (nightblade power), and dawn breaker. You literally die in less than half a second while being hit 5+ times almost instantly.

I thought maybe it was lag but it was the same few players doing it over and over again. They killed 3 people who happened upon them in a matter of seconds and there was no lag.

These exploits are growing tiresome . All we can do is report the people using them I guess?

Animation cancelling doesn't let you use skills more quickly. All skills in ESO have a 1.3s global cooldown.

What animation cancelling lets you do is use non-skills during this delay, such as heavy/liught attacks and block.

It only lets you use a skill faster if that skill's animation is longer than 1.3s, which few are.

badmojo

I don't know why people think this is so difficult for ZOS to track and punish people for. Sure, they might not be able to program in some code that will detect these people and ban them, but that's like saying we can't prosecute people for murder simply because there isn't a record of them doing it, despite there being lots of evidence, and witnesses.

A GM for ZOS could easily ban a few of these a day. Wait for multiple reports of macro'ing to come in on the same player, wait for that player to enter Cyrodiil and then simply observe them from their angle. It should be obvious really quick if the player is doing things that are not humanly possible.

If for some stupid reason the GMs don't have the power to spectate players from their angle, just teleport yourself to the player and engage them as a test to see what they do. But, really, if the GMs can't spectate, then maybe forget about banning people and put those man hours into implementing that.

Deheart

My thoughts on this

Animation cancelling...... ESO" Feature" that is really originally an unintended exploit that they don't want to bother with.
So yes, it is an exploit. An exploit that everyone knows about, everyone can do, and doesn't really effect the game that much even in pvp.

Macroing....... Using macros to exploit game mechanics faster and or better than a human can - Is ESO getting paid extra to let you do macros, like for dual boxing and paying for extra accounts? If so you are ok, if not, then you are cheating. That is the way most mmo's essentially look at macros and how they allow them. Is a making money thing.

badmojo

Deheart wrote: »

Macroing....... Using macros to exploit game mechanics faster and or better than a human can - Is ESO getting paid extra to let you do macros, like for dual boxing and paying for extra accounts? If so you are ok, if not, then you are cheating. That is the way most mmo's essentially look at macros and how they allow them. Is a making money thing.

The way I look at it, is how much money are they in position to lose if they let the problem get out of hand? If they continue to let obvious problems continue without action, how long before there's a mass exodus of paying customers? Ban one or two customers, to keep another 10 or 20 happy, seems like the smart thing to do.