Sorcerer - Lack of stamina morphs

Cathexis

This is the dumbest sh--t argument I've ever seen. Lots of things have misleading names that serve different functions than people are lead to believe.

And as I said before. The concept of a magic user is not a fixed concept, otherwise every games magic user would be exactly the same. Therefor it is possible that there might be a magika user who also has some skills that require stamina either on their own or in addition to magika costs.

Argument Finished.

Emma_Overload

Sometimes I get the feeling people on these forums aren't even playing the same game I am. The only times I would ever need to use Dark Exchange/Conversion/Deal are when I'm getting my butt kicked by some horrific boss or by multiple mobs and need a heal fast.... and it ALWAYS FAILS to out-heal the incoming damage in those situations.

Sure, Dark Exchange works great when you're finishing off that last skeever in a solo delve, but then you probably didn't even need a heal at all! Anybody who thinks a 4 second channel is no big deal, and "you just need to time it right" should go to Craglorn and stand in the middle of a bunch of Scaled Court mobs while casting that spell. After that eye-opening experience, you should then go down to Spindleclutch and say hello to some spider swarms while casting Dark Exchange repeatedly. Good luck with that... you just need to time it right!

HA HA HA HA HA. Anyone who doesn't understand why Sorcs (including stamina builds) need an effective, instant heal either hasn't leveled past VR1 or is accustomed to the luxury of a dedicated healer covering his pampered ass.

.

Glurin

@Cathexis
Sure, things like words and names don't matter. Who needs language anyway? We should all just turnip and get on our bulldozers to bird some spoon. Maybe weed a nice mailbox while we're at it. Then we can all tree at the pokemon for some ethernet and pillows.

Glurin

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Sometimes I get the feeling people on these forums aren't even playing the same game I am. The only times I would ever need to use Dark Exchange/Conversion/Deal are when I'm getting my butt kicked by some horrific boss or by multiple mobs and need a heal fast.... and it ALWAYS FAILS to out-heal the incoming damage in those situations.

Sure, Dark Exchange works great when you're finishing off that last skeever in a solo delve, but then you probably didn't even need a heal at all! Anybody who thinks a 4 second channel is no big deal, and "you just need to time it right" should go to Craglorn and stand in the middle of a bunch of Scaled Court mobs while casting that spell. After that eye-opening experience, you should then go down to Spindleclutch and say hello to some spider swarms while casting Dark Exchange repeatedly. Good luck with that... you just need to time it right!

HA HA HA HA HA. Anyone who doesn't understand why Sorcs (including stamina builds) need an effective, instant heal either hasn't leveled past VR1 or is accustomed to the luxury of a dedicated healer covering their pampered ass.

.

How about trying NOT standing in the middle of a bunch of Scaled Court mobs while casting that spell. That was kind of the point. The theory behind the spell is that you, for example, CC them and while they're stuck, you take a couple steps back and channel. The heal would then compensate for any damage taken while channeling because the primary focus of it is restoring your primary resource.

Looks great on paper. Just usually doesn't turn out so well in practice.

Varicite

In PvP, the channel is just a huge INTERRUPT ME RIGHT NOW AND KILL ME sign. : P

Emma_Overload

Glurin wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Sometimes I get the feeling people on these forums aren't even playing the same game I am. The only times I would ever need to use Dark Exchange/Conversion/Deal are when I'm getting my butt kicked by some horrific boss or by multiple mobs and need a heal fast.... and it ALWAYS FAILS to out-heal the incoming damage in those situations.

Sure, Dark Exchange works great when you're finishing off that last skeever in a solo delve, but then you probably didn't even need a heal at all! Anybody who thinks a 4 second channel is no big deal, and "you just need to time it right" should go to Craglorn and stand in the middle of a bunch of Scaled Court mobs while casting that spell. After that eye-opening experience, you should then go down to Spindleclutch and say hello to some spider swarms while casting Dark Exchange repeatedly. Good luck with that... you just need to time it right!

HA HA HA HA HA. Anyone who doesn't understand why Sorcs (including stamina builds) need an effective, instant heal either hasn't leveled past VR1 or is accustomed to the luxury of a dedicated healer covering their pampered ass.

.

How about trying NOT standing in the middle of a bunch of Scaled Court mobs while casting that spell. That was kind of the point. The theory behind the spell is that you, for example, CC them and while they're stuck, you take a couple steps back and channel. The heal would then compensate for any damage taken while channeling because the primary focus of it is restoring your primary resource.

Looks great on paper. Just usually doesn't turn out so well in practice.

That's not going to work. Right after you cast Encase or whatever, the two Illusionists are going to shrug and keeping casting "Fright Force" at the rate of 8000 DPS, while the Perforator winds up for a 20000 HP "Taking Aim" execution shot. If you have a Magicka regen build, you can even the odds somewhat with BoL and Hardened Ward, but a Stamina build won't be casting those spells very often, if at all.

Glurin

Varicite wrote: »

In PvP, the channel is just a huge INTERRUPT ME RIGHT NOW AND KILL ME sign. : P

Ahh, I still remember it like it was yesterday. People complaining non-stop about BEing sorcerers dashing across the map because if they ever ran out their infinity level magicka pool, they could hit Dark Exchange and instantly be back up and killing people by running away from them again.


....wait, that probably was yesterday.

Varicite

Well, we did hit BE pretty hard w/ the nerfbat during those days. :P

exiledtyrant

Ok so after thinking over it I guess a damage shield over a 4 second channel would have to be way to high seeing as how easy it is to break my 30k shield. Major protection might be an interesting alternative or the channel could turn into a heal over time. Heal over times still allow action and counters without locking a dps or tank down during the duration. I am going back and forth on dark deal being a straight up instant ability as it kind of steps on the Dragonknight's toes with their ability to reset a fight in the form of green dragon blood.

If the the defensive mechanic has done it's job you are gaining more health and stamina/magicka than you started with. If it hasn't like now you are breaking even or ending off worse than you started. Major protection is so strong that it is pretty much ultimate material so there has to be a way to keep it short duration and not spammable.

Dark Dark deal needs:
To keep the user active for dps and tanking
Have a consequence for producing health and primary resource at a high percentage
A defensive mechanic tied into it so that you end off better than you started

Let's try and think up some parts to draft up a proper skill following the guide lines above.

Options for application:
Instant ( instant cast)
Heal over time ( happens over a duration)
Delayed burst ( happens instantly after a time period)
Absorb ( converts damage to resources over a duration)

Consequences:
Disable healing, stamina regen, magicka regen, or a mixture of the three
Halve healing, stamina rege, magicka regen or a mixture of the three
Reduce a secondary stat such as spell power or critical chance
Introduce a condition such as snare or stun
Set a cooldown such as Drain essence

Defensive mechanic:
Major protection ( 30% damage reduction)
Minor Protection ( 8% damage reduction)
Damage shield
Reflect
Flat mitigation
Teleportation

Any other suggestions for the list would be nice. A mock example of a drafted skill would be:

Dark Deal - Sacrifice 20% maximum magicka. You are given the minor protection buff for 1.5 seconds. After 3 seconds you restore 20% of your max health and max stamina. During this time your magicka and stamina regen is halved.

Cathexis

@Glurin I don't know what your talking about, but I'm sure you have a precise, unwavering definition of what it means to "just turnip and get on our bulldozers to bird some spoon. Maybe weed a nice mailbox and then we can all tree at the pokemon for some ethernet and pillows."

I'm sure you'll call it somethinng like Spoolunking and declare it impervious to creative change.

byrom101b16_ESO

By now Glurin you are familiar with the pack tactics of the stamina zealots who just MUST have all four classes as hybrids instead of just the 75% of options their own way.

Self-serving lot aren't they, and very quick to sling the mud and demean any post with the temerity to not slavishly agree with 'the one true way'!?

If you have the time to check, that the words Sorcerer or Sorcery mean nothing to them, and that Zenimax have always intended to give them what they want, despite not actually managing to do so since the beginning of the game so far...

... I guess their stamina resourced crystal balls must be better than the magicka one's we are using... lol

CP5

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

By now Glurin you are familiar with the pack tactics of the stamina zealots who just MUST have all four classes as hybrids instead of just the 75% of options their own way.

Self-serving lot aren't they, and very quick to sling the mud and demean any post with the temerity to not slavishly agree with 'the one true way'!?

If you have the time to check, that the words Sorcerer or Sorcery mean nothing to them, and that Zenimax have always intended to give them what they want, despite not actually managing to do so since the beginning of the game so far...

... I guess their stamina resourced crystal balls must be better than the magicka one's we are using... lol

Could you please re-outline all points you make in defense of the sorcerer being the only class in eso being restricted to one role? I would like to respond to all of them individually and have your points be as up to date as possible.

Varicite

I hope he starts w/ the part about Blood Magic being based off of damage done, personally. : D

Cathexis

@glurin ahaha I get it now that should say fixed concept. I didn't see that until now.

Jar_Ek

@exiledtyrant Here are some extras for your list:

Appl ication:
Burst heal at threshold (ie @30% health)
Ramping HoT (heals for more per tick the longer it runs)
Inverse ramping HoT (heals for less per tick the longer it runs)

Consequences: Channel (self cc)
Vulnerability (to a specific attack type)
Root

Defence:
Invulnerable (take no damage / cannot affect world)
Block (equivalence)


Note that invulnerable would always be op.

byrom101b16_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

By now Glurin you are familiar with the pack tactics of the stamina zealots who just MUST have all four classes as hybrids instead of just the 75% of options their own way.

Self-serving lot aren't they, and very quick to sling the mud and demean any post with the temerity to not slavishly agree with 'the one true way'!?

If you have the time to check, that the words Sorcerer or Sorcery mean nothing to them, and that Zenimax have always intended to give them what they want, despite not actually managing to do so since the beginning of the game so far...

... I guess their stamina resourced crystal balls must be better than the magicka one's we are using... lol

Could you please re-outline all points you make in defense of the sorcerer being the only class in eso being restricted to one role? I would like to respond to all of them individually and have your points be as up to date as possible.

My points are still entirely relevant and up to date and I don't have the time or inclination to repeat them - please read them if you wish.

I find the rabid opprobrium heaped on those who don't like the idea of stamina morphs by certain parties to be distasteful, rude and inappropriate, and I have no desire to re-engage with such.

The points are made and logically so - but as you have had the maturity and good judgment to focus on the argument and not the perceived 'failings' of the individual, my exclusive apologies to you that I really don't wish to re-summarise my standpoint.

byrom101b16_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

I hope he starts w/ the part about Blood Magic being based off of damage done, personally. : D

If all you have to contribute is a cheap shot on an openly admitted and singular mistake, then you are wasting everyone's time for nothing more than your own entertainment.

Well done...

Erock25

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I hope he starts w/ the part about Blood Magic being based off of damage done, personally. : D

If all you have to contribute is a cheap shot on an openly admitted and singular mistake, then you are wasting everyone's time for nothing more than your own entertainment.

Well done...

Singular? I'd say your entire overall suggestion for sorc thread that you created is riddled with errors and inconsistencies to the degree that from that point forward I took everything you said with a grain of salt.

CP5

@byrom101b16_ESO, I was asking for your points because first I would like a clean list of comments to address, and second, I don't have the time to dig through all of your past comments to collect all of your points. I will say that as is, a lot of your points have little supporting them and I would hope you would at least be interested in elaborating on what you've said in the past.

Cathexis

@CP5 especially since he (and as a side note, really everyone) continue to go around in circles on the matter.

exiledtyrant

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@exiledtyrant Here are some extras for your list:

Appl ication:
Burst heal at threshold (ie @30% health)
Ramping HoT (heals for more per tick the longer it runs)
Inverse ramping HoT (heals for less per tick the longer it runs)

Consequences: Channel (self cc)
Vulnerability (to a specific attack type)
Root

Defence:
Invulnerable (take no damage / cannot affect world)
Block (equivalence)


Note that invulnerable would always be op.

These are some interesting additions. I will add them to my lists and try to draft some different variations tonight. I would encourage others to try and do the same. I'll also start to make a list for bound armaments. I personally think adding cleave to light and heavy attacks while summoned would be neat. I'd say it is a good chance we are going to see bound armaments and dark deal get reworked along with 2 other morphs in existing class skills. I will have a better idea on what two I would zero in on after these two are out of the way.

Cathexis

@exiledtyrant it definitely needs to add some kind of useful offensivr benefit. If they do ramp up bound armaments, the stamina morph looks WAY cooler and should just be the default..but more importantly it shouldhave a gameplay visual display disable option.

byrom101b16_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I hope he starts w/ the part about Blood Magic being based off of damage done, personally. : D

If all you have to contribute is a cheap shot on an openly admitted and singular mistake, then you are wasting everyone's time for nothing more than your own entertainment.

Well done...

Singular? I'd say your entire overall suggestion for sorc thread that you created is riddled with errors and inconsistencies to the degree that from that point forward I took everything you said with a grain of salt.

Interesting you have to date never once pointed out a single representative error, nor proved a conceptual error in any post I have made so far.

I can point to two of yours without even trying - accusing me of being a 'lone voice' in the counter-argument, and stating that a poll of player opinion would be pointless.

You really do need to read a little about how polls work, and how organisations everywhere use them to get at the truth about their customers opinions. Then maybe you'll begin to understand how they can't all be wrong, and you right.

But it would seem you just want too jump on a particular one-man bandwagon now because it's pointed at me right?

Everyone else can just go hang, because you want your stamina build just so...

Thusly, you have resorted to opportunistic sniping with one liners. Not the most robust debating style I have to say...

As for taking everything I say 'with a grain of salt' - I expect such hand-waving dismissal from you based on your past behaviour. You have similarly tried to characterise others as people who shouldn't be listened to as well. The common thread... they don't agree with you.

You have yet to shoot down with any logical credibility the counter-argument. I would hazard a reasoned guess it's because you cannot (I mean what else could it be..?). So shooting at the messenger is all you have left.

Follow your own advice and say something useful about the argument(s) instead...

byrom101b16_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

@byrom101b16_ESO, I was asking for your points because first I would like a clean list of comments to address, and second, I don't have the time to dig through all of your past comments to collect all of your points. I will say that as is, a lot of your points have little supporting them and I would hope you would at least be interested in elaborating on what you've said in the past.

Fair enough CP5.

I'll consider creating a summary, but it depends on the time I have, which, alas, is short at the moment.

Once again, you want to tackle the argument, not the individual, and your approach doesn't smack of egocentric monomania. This makes you a rare breed here, and worth the effort.

CP5

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

@byrom101b16_ESO, I was asking for your points because first I would like a clean list of comments to address, and second, I don't have the time to dig through all of your past comments to collect all of your points. I will say that as is, a lot of your points have little supporting them and I would hope you would at least be interested in elaborating on what you've said in the past.

Fair enough CP5.

I'll consider creating a summary, but it depends on the time I have, which, alas, is short at the moment.

Once again, you want to tackle the argument, not the individual, and your approach doesn't smack of egocentric monomania. This makes you a rare breed here, and worth the effort.

I appreciate the effort, this will probably take a good amount of time but hopefully can be resolved quickly after that.

Varicite

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

You really do need to read a little about how polls work, and how organisations everywhere use them to get at the truth about their customers opinions. Then maybe you'll begin to understand how they can't all be wrong, and you right.

Perhaps you should look into what "sample size" means and why an opinion poll on these forums would be completely worthless.

maryriv

I didn't roll a sorc to play a stamina build

Varicite

maryriv wrote: »

I didn't roll a sorc to play a stamina build

So are you saying that because you personally didn't roll a sorc to play a stamina build, others who wish to play stamina builds w/ their Sorc should simply continue being behind every other class by a large margin?

Because that's what is happening and has been happening since 1.6.

Erock25

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

I hope he starts w/ the part about Blood Magic being based off of damage done, personally. : D

If all you have to contribute is a cheap shot on an openly admitted and singular mistake, then you are wasting everyone's time for nothing more than your own entertainment.

Well done...

Singular? I'd say your entire overall suggestion for sorc thread that you created is riddled with errors and inconsistencies to the degree that from that point forward I took everything you said with a grain of salt.

Interesting you have to date never once pointed out a single representative error, nor proved a conceptual error in any post I have made so far.

I can point to two of yours without even trying - accusing me of being a 'lone voice' in the counter-argument, and stating that a poll of player opinion would be pointless.

You really do need to read a little about how polls work, and how organisations everywhere use them to get at the truth about their customers opinions. Then maybe you'll begin to understand how they can't all be wrong, and you right.

But it would seem you just want too jump on a particular one-man bandwagon now because it's pointed at me right?

Everyone else can just go hang, because you want your stamina build just so...

Thusly, you have resorted to opportunistic sniping with one liners. Not the most robust debating style I have to say...

As for taking everything I say 'with a grain of salt' - I expect such hand-waving dismissal from you based on your past behaviour. You have similarly tried to characterise others as people who shouldn't be listened to as well. The common thread... they don't agree with you.

You have yet to shoot down with any logical credibility the counter-argument. I would hazard a reasoned guess it's because you cannot (I mean what else could it be..?). So shooting at the messenger is all you have left.

Follow your own advice and say something useful about the argument(s) instead...

Byrom, I realize you are super duper upset about losing a couple of magicka morphs, but get over it. It is how the game is. Debating you is like talking to a wall as you will ignore undeniable truths in favor of 'Yeah well I talked to 70 so and so's and they said blah blah blah', like that means anything in this conversation.

Your sorc suggestion thread was so terrible that there wasn't even a need to point out all of the errors.

Calling you the lone voice in a thread where you were literally the only one at that point spamming the thread with negative comments is not an error and a poll of player opinion IS pointless.

I have resorted to one liners because there is no point in rational conversation with you.

Keep on keeping on though, I guess. I'm sure someone finds your thread contributions worthwhile. Anyone?

Cathexis

This thread is a marathon of circle talking.