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Remove hardened ward
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Snit✭✭✭✭✭
✭
All I've been saying is that they shouldn't get to have the best of both worlds while only putting points into a single resource. No other class enjoys this advantage.
Templars also scale their DPS and their Survivability by investing in Magicka or Spell Damage. Healing is their best survival tool.
Every stamina build scales its DPS and its Survivability by investing in Stamina. Dodge rolls and blocks are very important survival tools.
Many of you are hung up on the idea that shields must work the same among every class, or it's unfair somehow. Why doesn't that apply to things like Spell Reflect or Self-Heals, which are also fairly important parts of the survivability toolbox?
Edited by Snit on 22 March 2015 20:43Snit AD Sorc
Ratbag AD Warden Tank
Goblins AD Stamblade3 -
Pancake-Tragedy✭✭✭✭✭Can we stop talking about whether you can be stunned or not in Hardened Ward?
Clearly, if it's preventing stuns, that's a bug. There's absolutely no point in talking about balancing around a bug.
I don't want Hardened Ward removed, I just think that it should scale from max health instead of max magicka. If a Sorc wants to have better defenses, they have the choice to spec their character that way still. If they want to do good damage, they can spec that way too.
All I've been saying is that they shouldn't get to have the best of both worlds while only putting points into a single resource. No other class enjoys this advantage.
I play a Sorc, it was actually my first VR+ character; I know that it can be a terrible pain to have your shields ripped off in seconds. I also know that other classes know that pain better than a Sorc.
I find it very interesting that Sorcs all over the place say that they absolutely need this shield to be this strong and scale from Magicka, but nobody else needs this, just Sorcs. Only Sorcs.
Sounds pretty self-serving to me.
The reason that Ward shouldn't scale off of health is because sorcs don't have self heals.
I know this has been re-hashed ump-teen million times, but that is the biggest difference between the implementation of the sorc shield, vs the implementation of DK and Templar shields, since they both have healing abilities baked into their class. We can't look at the skill as a single skill, but at the toolkit of other skills that classes have access to which complement each other.
People seem to think that a sorc can just press Ward once and forget about it while maintaining the ability to continue bursting people's faces off. That can't be further from the truth. I am required to constantly spam my Ward in fights, and when I am spamming Ward I'm not doing damage.
If a magicka specced DK or Templar doesn't want to die, they can also spam their class shield and their heals, just like a magicka specced sorc spamming ward.Edited by Pancake-Tragedy on 22 March 2015 20:48Pancake Tragedy - Sorcerer5 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »Can we stop talking about whether you can be stunned or not in Hardened Ward?
Clearly, if it's preventing stuns, that's a bug. There's absolutely no point in talking about balancing around a bug.
I don't want Hardened Ward removed, I just think that it should scale from max health instead of max magicka. If a Sorc wants to have better defenses, they have the choice to spec their character that way still. If they want to do good damage, they can spec that way too.
All I've been saying is that they shouldn't get to have the best of both worlds while only putting points into a single resource. No other class enjoys this advantage.
I play a Sorc, it was actually my first VR+ character; I know that it can be a terrible pain to have your shields ripped off in seconds. I also know that other classes know that pain better than a Sorc.
I find it very interesting that Sorcs all over the place say that they absolutely need this shield to be this strong and scale from Magicka, but nobody else needs this, just Sorcs. Only Sorcs.
Sounds pretty self-serving to me.
The reason that Ward shouldn't scale off of health is because sorcs don't have self heals.
I know this has been re-hashed ump-teen million times, but that is the biggest difference between the implementation of the sorc shield, vs the implementation of DK and Templar shields, since they both have healing abilities baked into their class. We can't look at the skill as a single skill, but at the toolkit of other skills that classes have access to which complement each other.
People seem to think that a sorc can just press Ward once and forget about it while maintaining the ability to continue bursting people's faces off. That can't be further from the truth. I am required to constantly spam my Ward in fights, and when I am spamming Ward I'm not doing damage.
If a magicka specced DK or Templar doesn't want to die, they can also spam their class shield and their heals, just like a magicka specced sorc spamming ward.
That's fair enough, though Sorcs do have about the same in-combat self-healing capability of a NB (I'd say that Strife/Sap is about on par w/ Crit Surge/Conversion cancelling in my experience), though NBs definitely have the edge after killing opponents or when dropping Ult. I tend to consider this a wash though, since a Sorc can carry a resto staff (that also scales from magicka/spell damage) in their 2nd slot and still have access to a 3rd skill bar.
I've never said that Ward doesn't have to be spammed when going on the defensive, only that Sorcs have the luxury of being very tanky against anybody not wielding a 2hander AND extremely potent offensively w/out having to go into other resources for that utility.
I do understand that the other classes have heals (though GDB also scales from health), but heals are still not as strong as shielding, and there is no extremely prevalent 30% shield debuff everywhere. There is a reason that nobody is here on the forums crying about heals being OP.
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Pancake-Tragedy✭✭✭✭✭
How about breath of life? I'd gladly trade my ward for breath of life.Pancake Tragedy - Sorcerer2 -
bloodenragedb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭tell you what, roll a sorc, get hardened ward, film it stopping a stun, then we will be inclined to believe you.
if he wasnt getting stunned, chances are he used a unstoppable potion before battle, the max of which will last 15 seconds1 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
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But it's not just one skill. It's an entire defense mechanic. What he's really asking is would you be willing to entirely eliminate the ability of the Templar to heal just to gain the Sorcerer's ability to mitigate damage?Edited by Glurin on 22 March 2015 22:21"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."1 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭You don't think that "eliminate the ability of Sorcerers to mitigate damage" is a bit strong?
There's still BE, Lightning Form, Encase, Crit Surge heals (which do suck compared to what they were, I admit), and 3rd skill bar which means you can use an entire loadout on defense/utility and still have plenty of options.
I personally wouldn't trade Ward for Breath of Life, because I can use Hardened + Healing Wards boosted by Surge while healing myself or Streaking away. I have a great single-target Destro bar w/ Overload slotted to switch to AoE / CC / utility spells too. You have to be proactive at times because of lag w/ Overload, but it works out amazingly well most of the time.
Then again, I don't play a Templar because outside of Repentance and Jesus Beam, there's not a lot there that draws my attention. : PEdited by Varicite on 22 March 2015 22:340 -
Cinnamon_Spider✭✭✭✭✭
✭Test here- Showing how Ward prevents sneak attack stun.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=l25VXKcs-4I
I'm not surprised (no pun intended) you have never noticed this. I find it funny, but not surprising. From any cool level headed person I would expect an apology. I don't believe you will give one though. In fact I believe you will not respond at all. If by some odd chance you do, you will attempt to move the goal post.
I do know you will read and watch this though. You knowing that I know, you know that you were wrong is good enough for me.
To you other three who chimed in, be careful what you co-sign. Like I have been saying, Ward is a great skill. It allows a lot of stat allocation diversity for sorcerers. I believe it last too long, and should not prevent things like sneak attack stun though.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom is this working as intended?
BS
Post it from the sorc's perspective, so we can see what he had active at the time. Here's a clip of me getting stunned by a NB immediately after I applied hardened ward:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=084mGdukThg&feature=youtube_gdata
I couldn't dodge roll. I couldn't bolt. I couldn't reapply ward. I was not able to react at all before the two additional attacks after the first.
Now about that apology...Cinn #SorcLivesMatter
Exquisite Bedlam - Sorcerer AD rank 34
Cinnamonspiderdreams - Sorcerer EP rank 24
Synaris Astarte - Templar DC rank 24
Cinnamon Spider - Nightblade AD
Youtube - Cinnamon_Spider5 -
Vis✭✭✭✭✭
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Test here- Showing how Ward prevents sneak attack stun.
You are 100% wrong my friend. No jokes, no insults. Find a friend and test it.
So you are saying it does not prevent the things i just listed?
Hold on man are you saying Ward does not prevent sneak attack stun, an entire game mechanic? Stuns from surprise attack? Immobilize from cripple?
I'm not sure why you quoted what I said and linked it to people who snipe. I do not snipe.Imho Ward is a great skill it offers sorcerers a lot of stat allocation diversity. It shouldn't be removed.
That being said, it last too long. The duration needs to be much shorter. Also, right now it prevents stuns and knock backs this needs to be fixed.
The amount of disinformation and completely ignorance in this thread is astounding. We basically have the same people reiterating the same points over and over and not a single one of them has any credibility in PvP other than they want to play an LoLSniper and 1shot people.
Of course you guys want hardened ward with a shorter duration. You're tired of waiting 20 seconds to get that 1-shot snipe in. We get it.
I've been editing video for my next PvP video and I'm putting together a compilation of LOLSnipes where a single player kills me from 100% health and full shields to death in 1 second or less.
This is the kind of gameplay you guys are pushing for. It involves no skill whatsoever, just the press of a button and an AP Pinata(Sorc).
I think it's a great skill. I just don't think any class should walk around with an immovable buff that adds 15k+ effective health up at all times. Are you denying that Ward prevents stuns, knock backs, some snares, and most secondary weapon effects?
Like I said I have no problem with sorcerers having a shield or the way it scales. The duration and CC immunity needs to be looked at though.
@TheBull I quoted followed by "The amount of disinformation and complete ignorance in this thread is astounding."
That was directed at your quote. To anyone who PvPs it is obvious that Hardened Ward does *not* " prevents stuns and knock backs"
The fact that you and so many other people in this thread are speaking about how this ability is so powerful when you guys obviously don't understand many of the mechanics in the game and PvP is pretty damn scary to me which is why I made the notes that I don't see anyone notable in PvP in here complaining about hardened ward.
Anyone notable? Dude you are delusional.
Again like I said, ward is a great skill. It just last too long and should not grant CC immunity.
I'm delusional and you're telling *me* that an ability I've been using in Cyrodiil for 11 months behaves differently than it does. Got it. Have you ever even been to Cyrodiil? Did you land in the wrong forum by accident?
edit- *crickets* like I thought...
Yes of course I'm saying that. Along with everyone else who said that same.
It doesn't prevent any CC, snares, or anything of that nature. I can't believe we're having this conversation. Do you really believe hardened ward acts as a 20 second immovable or something?
Kinda funny all this time you never knew. I do not think you are intentionally lying.
If I must I will post I video. I would prefer you test then reply back though. We are all wrong sometimes. No big deal. I just hope you man up and admit it after you test. Take care.
[VIDEO]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l25VXKcs-4I[/VIDEO]
I'm not surprised (no pun intended) that you have never noticed this. I find it funny, but not surprising. From any cool level headed person I would expect an apology. I don't believe you will give one though. In fact I believe you will not respond at all. If by some odd chance you do, you will attempt to move the goal post.
I do know you will read and watch this though. You knowing that I know, you know that you were wrong is good enough for me.
To you other three who chimed in, be careful what you co-sign. Like I have been saying, Ward is a great skill. It allows a lot of stat allocation diversity for sorcerers. I believe it last too long, and should not prevent things like sneak attack stun.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom is this working as intended?
So you are saying it does not prevent the things i just listed?
Hold on man are you saying Ward does not prevent sneak attack stun, an entire game mechanic? Stuns from surprise attack? Immobilize from cripple?
I'm not sure why you quoted what I said and linked it to people who snipe. I do not snipe.Imho Ward is a great skill it offers sorcerers a lot of stat allocation diversity. It shouldn't be removed.
That being said, it last too long. The duration needs to be much shorter. Also, right now it prevents stuns and knock backs this needs to be fixed.
The amount of disinformation and completely ignorance in this thread is astounding. We basically have the same people reiterating the same points over and over and not a single one of them has any credibility in PvP other than they want to play an LoLSniper and 1shot people.
Of course you guys want hardened ward with a shorter duration. You're tired of waiting 20 seconds to get that 1-shot snipe in. We get it.
I've been editing video for my next PvP video and I'm putting together a compilation of LOLSnipes where a single player kills me from 100% health and full shields to death in 1 second or less.
This is the kind of gameplay you guys are pushing for. It involves no skill whatsoever, just the press of a button and an AP Pinata(Sorc).
I think it's a great skill. I just don't think any class should walk around with an immovable buff that adds 15k+ effective health up at all times. Are you denying that Ward prevents stuns, knock backs, some snares, and most secondary weapon effects?
Like I said I have no problem with sorcerers having a shield or the way it scales. The duration and CC immunity needs to be looked at though.
@TheBull I quoted followed by "The amount of disinformation and complete ignorance in this thread is astounding."
That was directed at your quote. To anyone who PvPs it is obvious that Hardened Ward does *not* " prevents stuns and knock backs"
The fact that you and so many other people in this thread are speaking about how this ability is so powerful when you guys obviously don't understand many of the mechanics in the game and PvP is pretty damn scary to me which is why I made the notes that I don't see anyone notable in PvP in here complaining about hardened ward.
Anyone notable? Dude you are delusional.
Again like I said, ward is a great skill. It just last too long and should not grant CC immunity.
I'm delusional and you're telling *me* that an ability I've been using in Cyrodiil for 11 months behaves differently than it does. Got it. Have you ever even been to Cyrodiil? Did you land in the wrong forum by accident?
edit- *crickets* like I thought...
Yes of course I'm saying that. Along with everyone else who said that same.
It doesn't prevent any CC, snares, or anything of that nature. I can't believe we're having this conversation. Do you really believe hardened ward acts as a 20 second immovable or something?
Stop man. There is no mage light there. Just ward. Ward doing this was brought up many times on PTS during duels. I'm not out to get anyone. I'm not going to glitch the system to prove someone wrong. I've been wrong many times across many forums. I'm big enough to admit when I am.That video proves nothing. I can see the glowing aura around him he is running radiant magelight which does prevent that if you read the tool tip. It is currently bugged where the ball of light dont show up most of the time even though the skill is actually active.
I know this for a fact because I took RML off my bar last night and was stunned numerous times by stealth attacks with my ward up.
Good job cherry picking a video though, using a skill that's display is bugged 60% of the time, how many relogs did you have to do to get the RML to not appear? It happens to me usually every time I log.
The only way you will be stunned by a sneak attack through ward is if the attack breaks the ward. It appears that if no damage is registered during the attack the secondary effect will not proc.
If I must I will post the edited clips where my second attack did break the shield and he was stunned. No tin-foil hats needed.
Interesting bug I've discovered on my sorc. Sometimes I will get stunned by the sneak attack and then double cc'ed immediately after by fear. Not sure how many other sorcs have had that happen to them lately.Edited by Vis on 22 March 2015 23:25v14 Sorc Vae Exillis
v14 DK Costs
v14 NB 'Vis
v14 Temp Fiat Lux2 -
TheBull✭✭✭✭✭
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No need to get upset man. Did you notice that you took damage? His attack burst you Ward.Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »Test here- Showing how Ward prevents sneak attack stun.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=l25VXKcs-4I
I'm not surprised (no pun intended) you have never noticed this. I find it funny, but not surprising. From any cool level headed person I would expect an apology. I don't believe you will give one though. In fact I believe you will not respond at all. If by some odd chance you do, you will attempt to move the goal post.
I do know you will read and watch this though. You knowing that I know, you know that you were wrong is good enough for me.
To you other three who chimed in, be careful what you co-sign. Like I have been saying, Ward is a great skill. It allows a lot of stat allocation diversity for sorcerers. I believe it last too long, and should not prevent things like sneak attack stun though.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom is this working as intended?
BS
Post it from the sorc's perspective, so we can see what he had active at the time. Here's a clip of me getting stunned by a NB immediately after I applied hardened ward:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=084mGdukThg&feature=youtube_gdata
I couldn't dodge roll. I couldn't bolt. I couldn't reapply ward. I was not able to react at all before the two additional attacks after the first.
Now about that apology...
Like I said earlier. The sneak attack stun appears to be a secondary effect tied to damage. If the ward is burst like shown in your video (and my edits) you will be stunned. If the ward is not burst by the sneak attack, you will not be stunned as shown in my video.
I'll be happy to test it with you if you are online now.
Killed by Sunshine 1vX How I see it.
Killed by Early Bright - Blood Flow - Magicka NB Build
Twitch - SunshineNB
Youtube - The Redguard0 -
Cinnamon_Spider✭✭✭✭✭
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No need to get upset man. Did you notice that you took damage? His attack burst you Ward.Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »Test here- Showing how Ward prevents sneak attack stun.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=l25VXKcs-4I
I'm not surprised (no pun intended) you have never noticed this. I find it funny, but not surprising. From any cool level headed person I would expect an apology. I don't believe you will give one though. In fact I believe you will not respond at all. If by some odd chance you do, you will attempt to move the goal post.
I do know you will read and watch this though. You knowing that I know, you know that you were wrong is good enough for me.
To you other three who chimed in, be careful what you co-sign. Like I have been saying, Ward is a great skill. It allows a lot of stat allocation diversity for sorcerers. I believe it last too long, and should not prevent things like sneak attack stun though.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom is this working as intended?
BS
Post it from the sorc's perspective, so we can see what he had active at the time. Here's a clip of me getting stunned by a NB immediately after I applied hardened ward:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=084mGdukThg&feature=youtube_gdata
I couldn't dodge roll. I couldn't bolt. I couldn't reapply ward. I was not able to react at all before the two additional attacks after the first.
Now about that apology...
Like I said earlier. The sneak attack stun appears to be a secondary effect tied to damage. If the ward is burst like shown in your video (and my edits) you will be stunned. If the ward is not burst by the sneak attack, you will not be stunned as shown in my video.
I'll be happy to test it with you if you are online now.
The first attack was ambush for only 5k. My ward is 10k and had just been applied. As you can see, I was stunned and then he hit for another 5k ambush.
No one is upset. I just don't understand how you can keep reiterating this completely asinine idea that ward prevents stuns.Cinn #SorcLivesMatter
Exquisite Bedlam - Sorcerer AD rank 34
Cinnamonspiderdreams - Sorcerer EP rank 24
Synaris Astarte - Templar DC rank 24
Cinnamon Spider - Nightblade AD
Youtube - Cinnamon_Spider4 -
Oughash✭✭✭✭
I honestly think they need to put the +50% bonus back to health which would solve many of these problems. DK and Templar shields would be much larger, the TTK on players would shrink and it wouldn't make as much sense for a sorc to put all of their points into magicka at the expense of health. It would solve so many problems and unless there was some PvE reason for it I have no idea why they thought nerfing health was a good idea.
This needs to happen. TTK is waaaaaaay too low in Cyrodiil right now.1 -
cmycko✭✭Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »
How about breath of life? I'd gladly trade my ward for breath of life.
Exactly. Breath of life/Honor the dead heals for about as much as Conjured Ward wards. One is also unmitigated and heals 2 friendlies.
Its really getting old when people die once and come and complain here and don't think about what they're complaining about.
It's the same thing as trying to kill a templar spamming their heal.
That's all I will say. Not gonna keep bumping this thread up to the top to make it look like sorcs actually need a nerf rather than the very obvious buff they deserve.3 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »
How about breath of life? I'd gladly trade my ward for breath of life.
Exactly. Breath of life/Honor the dead heals for about as much as Conjured Ward wards. One is also unmitigated and heals 2 friendlies.
Its really getting old when people die once and come and complain here and don't think about what they're complaining about.
It's the same thing as trying to kill a templar spamming their heal.
That's all I will say. Not gonna keep bumping this thread up to the top to make it look like sorcs actually need a nerf rather than the very obvious buff they deserve.
Why would you trade it? When you can use healing ward after hardened ward to do the same thing? I know I wouldn't give up a 10k shield for a heal I already can gethttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭Can we stop talking about whether you can be stunned or not in Hardened Ward?
Clearly, if it's preventing stuns, that's a bug. There's absolutely no point in talking about balancing around a bug.
I don't want Hardened Ward removed, I just think that it should scale from max health instead of max magicka. If a Sorc wants to have better defenses, they have the choice to spec their character that way still. If they want to do good damage, they can spec that way too.
All I've been saying is that they shouldn't get to have the best of both worlds while only putting points into a single resource. No other class enjoys this advantage.
I play a Sorc, it was actually my first VR+ character; I know that it can be a terrible pain to have your shields ripped off in seconds. I also know that other classes know that pain better than a Sorc.
I find it very interesting that Sorcs all over the place say that they absolutely need this shield to be this strong and scale from Magicka, but nobody else needs this, just Sorcs. Only Sorcs.
Sounds pretty self-serving to me.
Actually, any damage shield seems to prevent certain weapon effects, like fire reach (knockback), any weapon bleeds/poison etc.0 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Exactly. Breath of life/Honor the dead heals for about as much as Conjured Ward wards. One is also unmitigated and heals 2 friendlies.
Its really getting old when people die once and come and complain here and don't think about what they're complaining about.
Almost as old as people coming here and pretending that this tired rhetoric applies.It's the same thing as trying to kill a templar spamming their heal.
Point me out where the 30% shield strength debuff that everybody has access to is and you might possibly have a point. Even then this is reaching.
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Can we stop talking about whether you can be stunned or not in Hardened Ward?
Clearly, if it's preventing stuns, that's a bug. There's absolutely no point in talking about balancing around a bug.
I don't want Hardened Ward removed, I just think that it should scale from max health instead of max magicka. If a Sorc wants to have better defenses, they have the choice to spec their character that way still. If they want to do good damage, they can spec that way too.
All I've been saying is that they shouldn't get to have the best of both worlds while only putting points into a single resource. No other class enjoys this advantage.
I play a Sorc, it was actually my first VR+ character; I know that it can be a terrible pain to have your shields ripped off in seconds. I also know that other classes know that pain better than a Sorc.
I find it very interesting that Sorcs all over the place say that they absolutely need this shield to be this strong and scale from Magicka, but nobody else needs this, just Sorcs. Only Sorcs.
Sounds pretty self-serving to me.
Actually, any damage shield seems to prevent certain weapon effects, like fire reach (knockback), any weapon bleeds/poison etc.
I didn't say anything about any of that, I'm not sure why you quoted me. <.<0 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭Can we stop talking about whether you can be stunned or not in Hardened Ward?
Clearly, if it's preventing stuns, that's a bug. There's absolutely no point in talking about balancing around a bug.
I don't want Hardened Ward removed, I just think that it should scale from max health instead of max magicka. If a Sorc wants to have better defenses, they have the choice to spec their character that way still. If they want to do good damage, they can spec that way too.
All I've been saying is that they shouldn't get to have the best of both worlds while only putting points into a single resource. No other class enjoys this advantage.
I play a Sorc, it was actually my first VR+ character; I know that it can be a terrible pain to have your shields ripped off in seconds. I also know that other classes know that pain better than a Sorc.
I find it very interesting that Sorcs all over the place say that they absolutely need this shield to be this strong and scale from Magicka, but nobody else needs this, just Sorcs. Only Sorcs.
Sounds pretty self-serving to me.
Actually, any damage shield seems to prevent certain weapon effects, like fire reach (knockback), any weapon bleeds/poison etc.
I didn't say anything about any of that, I'm not sure why you quoted me. <.<
I was refering to it preventing stuns.... like fire reach/clench0 -
cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭i get owned through my shields by all manner of stamina builds built for damage. tanks are tanks and are built for sustain and should not be complaining about shields here, if you want to take damage, you should not deal massive damage.
magicka builds on the other hands are way weaker then stam builds in all classes, each has there nich in survivability and if you are not taking advantage of them then thats your own shortfall of your class, NB evasion shield thing/cloak (forever)/familiar teleport , Sorc Bolt/Hardened ward, DK Igneous sheild/RS/GDB, Temp BOL/Sun Shield. the advantage of the templar and the dk is that they can choose any weapons they want because they have good class heals where the NB and Sorc are forced to use Resto staff if they want to even be competative.
Stam builds, all have roll dodge for near forever, block (mitigates crap ton of damage and prevents cc). higher spell armor and spell resist. can cast abilities while defending with block and dodge roll (OP? maybe).
all magicka classes have to do more work atm to live compared to stam builds getting 2 extra spamable abilities on top of there 10 abilites and 2 ultimates with higher damage mitigation and higher damage output.
so people complaining about sorcs being op, i just cant see where they are coming from. you were just outplayed son, many of the sorcs you see out there were playing them when they werent doing much damage in 1.5 and still killing people. now they can do damage (all be it less then stam builds) and are now able to show how skilled they really are. they had more practice being good at the bottom, which makes them amazing when closer to being on par with other classes.Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
Youtube Channel - Leper
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos6 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »so people complaining about sorcs being op, i just cant see where they are coming from. you were just outplayed son, many of the sorcs you see out there were playing them when they werent doing much damage in 1.5 and still killing people. now they can do damage (all be it less then stam builds) and are now able to show how skilled they really are. they had more practice being good at the bottom, which makes them amazing when closer to being on par with other classes.
Everything that you just said could be applied to stamina builds destroying everyone in Cyrodiil right now.
But it pretty much has nothing to do w/ Hardened Ward.
/shrug0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »Can we stop talking about whether you can be stunned or not in Hardened Ward?
Clearly, if it's preventing stuns, that's a bug. There's absolutely no point in talking about balancing around a bug.
I don't want Hardened Ward removed, I just think that it should scale from max health instead of max magicka. If a Sorc wants to have better defenses, they have the choice to spec their character that way still. If they want to do good damage, they can spec that way too.
All I've been saying is that they shouldn't get to have the best of both worlds while only putting points into a single resource. No other class enjoys this advantage.
I play a Sorc, it was actually my first VR+ character; I know that it can be a terrible pain to have your shields ripped off in seconds. I also know that other classes know that pain better than a Sorc.
I find it very interesting that Sorcs all over the place say that they absolutely need this shield to be this strong and scale from Magicka, but nobody else needs this, just Sorcs. Only Sorcs.
Sounds pretty self-serving to me.
The reason that Ward shouldn't scale off of health is because sorcs don't have self heals.
I know this has been re-hashed ump-teen million times, but that is the biggest difference between the implementation of the sorc shield, vs the implementation of DK and Templar shields, since they both have healing abilities baked into their class. We can't look at the skill as a single skill, but at the toolkit of other skills that classes have access to which complement each other.
People seem to think that a sorc can just press Ward once and forget about it while maintaining the ability to continue bursting people's faces off. That can't be further from the truth. I am required to constantly spam my Ward in fights, and when I am spamming Ward I'm not doing damage.
If a magicka specced DK or Templar doesn't want to die, they can also spam their class shield and their heals, just like a magicka specced sorc spamming ward.
That's fair enough, though Sorcs do have about the same in-combat self-healing capability of a NB (I'd say that Strife/Sap is about on par w/ Crit Surge/Conversion cancelling in my experience), though NBs definitely have the edge after killing opponents or when dropping Ult. I tend to consider this a wash though, since a Sorc can carry a resto staff (that also scales from magicka/spell damage) in their 2nd slot and still have access to a 3rd skill bar.
I've never said that Ward doesn't have to be spammed when going on the defensive, only that Sorcs have the luxury of being very tanky against anybody not wielding a 2hander AND extremely potent offensively w/out having to go into other resources for that utility.
I do understand that the other classes have heals (though GDB also scales from health), but heals are still not as strong as shielding, and there is no extremely prevalent 30% shield debuff everywhere. There is a reason that nobody is here on the forums crying about heals being OP.
There is no way a sorc in-combat healing is on par with a NB. Surge is an expensive crap skill that is utterly inferior to entropy and is dangerous to use because dots will steal heals. Also casting it does not heal, which is rather significant. A NB uses the two very good and cost-efficient skills that you mentioned that actually do heal when used (as well as other useful stuff) and also can derive heals from other abilities/passives. It's not a wash because a NB can also carry a resto staff. Have you ever seen Krim from AD play? Just try and do that with a sorc.
And shields are NOT stronger than heals. Shields provide no mitigation and do not save you from the dangers of having low health (e.g. executes). And you think nobody on the forums cry about GDB? Are you new here? If nobody is crying about it now it is because they are too busy whining about Radiant Destruction and sorcerers. I play a sorc and a templar and I will tell you that spamming BOL makes you more "tanky" than a sorc spamming conjured ward, and also has the additional benefit of tossing heals out to allies while doing so.
A shield's primary benefit to heals is that it can be pre-cast. Once in a combat situation where both shield and health are depleted, its advantage is now lost as it is more advantageous to fill the health bar..
.2 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »Can we stop talking about whether you can be stunned or not in Hardened Ward?
Clearly, if it's preventing stuns, that's a bug. There's absolutely no point in talking about balancing around a bug.
I don't want Hardened Ward removed, I just think that it should scale from max health instead of max magicka. If a Sorc wants to have better defenses, they have the choice to spec their character that way still. If they want to do good damage, they can spec that way too.
All I've been saying is that they shouldn't get to have the best of both worlds while only putting points into a single resource. No other class enjoys this advantage.
I play a Sorc, it was actually my first VR+ character; I know that it can be a terrible pain to have your shields ripped off in seconds. I also know that other classes know that pain better than a Sorc.
I find it very interesting that Sorcs all over the place say that they absolutely need this shield to be this strong and scale from Magicka, but nobody else needs this, just Sorcs. Only Sorcs.
Sounds pretty self-serving to me.
The reason that Ward shouldn't scale off of health is because sorcs don't have self heals.
I know this has been re-hashed ump-teen million times, but that is the biggest difference between the implementation of the sorc shield, vs the implementation of DK and Templar shields, since they both have healing abilities baked into their class. We can't look at the skill as a single skill, but at the toolkit of other skills that classes have access to which complement each other.
People seem to think that a sorc can just press Ward once and forget about it while maintaining the ability to continue bursting people's faces off. That can't be further from the truth. I am required to constantly spam my Ward in fights, and when I am spamming Ward I'm not doing damage.
If a magicka specced DK or Templar doesn't want to die, they can also spam their class shield and their heals, just like a magicka specced sorc spamming ward.
That's fair enough, though Sorcs do have about the same in-combat self-healing capability of a NB (I'd say that Strife/Sap is about on par w/ Crit Surge/Conversion cancelling in my experience), though NBs definitely have the edge after killing opponents or when dropping Ult. I tend to consider this a wash though, since a Sorc can carry a resto staff (that also scales from magicka/spell damage) in their 2nd slot and still have access to a 3rd skill bar.
I've never said that Ward doesn't have to be spammed when going on the defensive, only that Sorcs have the luxury of being very tanky against anybody not wielding a 2hander AND extremely potent offensively w/out having to go into other resources for that utility.
I do understand that the other classes have heals (though GDB also scales from health), but heals are still not as strong as shielding, and there is no extremely prevalent 30% shield debuff everywhere. There is a reason that nobody is here on the forums crying about heals being OP.
There is no way a sorc in-combat healing is on par with a NB. Surge is an expensive crap skill that is utterly inferior to entropy and is dangerous to use because dots will steal heals. Also casting it does not heal, which is rather significant. A NB uses the two very good and cost-efficient skills that you mentioned that actually do heal when used (as well as other useful stuff) and also can derive heals from other abilities/passives. It's not a wash because a NB can also carry a resto staff. Have you ever seen Krim from AD play? Just try and do that with a sorc.
And shields are NOT stronger than heals. Shields provide no mitigation and do not save you from the dangers of having low health (e.g. executes). And you think nobody on the forums cry about GDB? Are you new here? If nobody is crying about it now it is because they are too busy whining about Radiant Destruction and sorcerers. I play a sorc and a templar and I will tell you that spamming BOL makes you more "tanky" than a sorc spamming conjured ward, and also has the additional benefit of tossing heals out to allies while doing so.
A shield's primary benefit to heals is that it can be pre-cast. Once in a combat situation where both shield and health are depleted, its advantage is now lost as it is more advantageous to fill the health bar..
.
It's been like 6 months since people stopped whining about GDB. I suppose next you're going to start complaining about all the bots and forward camps now too? Kidding. : P
PS) A NB cannot carry a resto staff and STILL have 10 more abilities to slot, which is the part you seem to have missed there. That's what makes it a wash.
0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is a reason that nobody is here on the forums crying about heals being OP.
Because sorcerer's don't really have any and would die before they could use them anyway?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Pancake-Tragedy wrote: »Can we stop talking about whether you can be stunned or not in Hardened Ward?
Clearly, if it's preventing stuns, that's a bug. There's absolutely no point in talking about balancing around a bug.
I don't want Hardened Ward removed, I just think that it should scale from max health instead of max magicka. If a Sorc wants to have better defenses, they have the choice to spec their character that way still. If they want to do good damage, they can spec that way too.
All I've been saying is that they shouldn't get to have the best of both worlds while only putting points into a single resource. No other class enjoys this advantage.
I play a Sorc, it was actually my first VR+ character; I know that it can be a terrible pain to have your shields ripped off in seconds. I also know that other classes know that pain better than a Sorc.
I find it very interesting that Sorcs all over the place say that they absolutely need this shield to be this strong and scale from Magicka, but nobody else needs this, just Sorcs. Only Sorcs.
Sounds pretty self-serving to me.
The reason that Ward shouldn't scale off of health is because sorcs don't have self heals.
I know this has been re-hashed ump-teen million times, but that is the biggest difference between the implementation of the sorc shield, vs the implementation of DK and Templar shields, since they both have healing abilities baked into their class. We can't look at the skill as a single skill, but at the toolkit of other skills that classes have access to which complement each other.
People seem to think that a sorc can just press Ward once and forget about it while maintaining the ability to continue bursting people's faces off. That can't be further from the truth. I am required to constantly spam my Ward in fights, and when I am spamming Ward I'm not doing damage.
If a magicka specced DK or Templar doesn't want to die, they can also spam their class shield and their heals, just like a magicka specced sorc spamming ward.
That's fair enough, though Sorcs do have about the same in-combat self-healing capability of a NB (I'd say that Strife/Sap is about on par w/ Crit Surge/Conversion cancelling in my experience), though NBs definitely have the edge after killing opponents or when dropping Ult. I tend to consider this a wash though, since a Sorc can carry a resto staff (that also scales from magicka/spell damage) in their 2nd slot and still have access to a 3rd skill bar.
I've never said that Ward doesn't have to be spammed when going on the defensive, only that Sorcs have the luxury of being very tanky against anybody not wielding a 2hander AND extremely potent offensively w/out having to go into other resources for that utility.
I do understand that the other classes have heals (though GDB also scales from health), but heals are still not as strong as shielding, and there is no extremely prevalent 30% shield debuff everywhere. There is a reason that nobody is here on the forums crying about heals being OP.
There is no way a sorc in-combat healing is on par with a NB. Surge is an expensive crap skill that is utterly inferior to entropy and is dangerous to use because dots will steal heals. Also casting it does not heal, which is rather significant. A NB uses the two very good and cost-efficient skills that you mentioned that actually do heal when used (as well as other useful stuff) and also can derive heals from other abilities/passives. It's not a wash because a NB can also carry a resto staff. Have you ever seen Krim from AD play? Just try and do that with a sorc.
And shields are NOT stronger than heals. Shields provide no mitigation and do not save you from the dangers of having low health (e.g. executes). And you think nobody on the forums cry about GDB? Are you new here? If nobody is crying about it now it is because they are too busy whining about Radiant Destruction and sorcerers. I play a sorc and a templar and I will tell you that spamming BOL makes you more "tanky" than a sorc spamming conjured ward, and also has the additional benefit of tossing heals out to allies while doing so.
A shield's primary benefit to heals is that it can be pre-cast. Once in a combat situation where both shield and health are depleted, its advantage is now lost as it is more advantageous to fill the health bar..
.
It's been like 6 months since people stopped whining about GDB. I suppose next you're going to start complaining about all the bots and forward camps now too? Kidding. : P
PS) A NB cannot carry a resto staff and STILL have 10 more abilities to slot, which is the part you seem to have missed there. That's what makes it a wash.
No it hasn't. Look at any PvP thread or DK themed thread in general discussions before the 1.6 PTS patch notes were released and you will find a large number of people fingering the DK as OP and citing GDB (along with talons and scales) as one of the primary factors.
Can sorcs open that third bar if they don't have the Ultimate required for Overload?
None of this makes shields > heals in combat situations.Edited by Joy_Division on 23 March 2015 19:590 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
@TheBull , gratz. You made a video showing the skills you were using, now record it from the Sorc's persepctive...makes it much simpler to show what skills are not being used by the Sorc.
Test here- Showing how Ward prevents sneak attack stun.
You are 100% wrong my friend. No jokes, no insults. Find a friend and test it.
So you are saying it does not prevent the things i just listed?
Hold on man are you saying Ward does not prevent sneak attack stun, an entire game mechanic? Stuns from surprise attack? Immobilize from cripple?
I'm not sure why you quoted what I said and linked it to people who snipe. I do not snipe.Imho Ward is a great skill it offers sorcerers a lot of stat allocation diversity. It shouldn't be removed.
That being said, it last too long. The duration needs to be much shorter. Also, right now it prevents stuns and knock backs this needs to be fixed.
The amount of disinformation and completely ignorance in this thread is astounding. We basically have the same people reiterating the same points over and over and not a single one of them has any credibility in PvP other than they want to play an LoLSniper and 1shot people.
Of course you guys want hardened ward with a shorter duration. You're tired of waiting 20 seconds to get that 1-shot snipe in. We get it.
I've been editing video for my next PvP video and I'm putting together a compilation of LOLSnipes where a single player kills me from 100% health and full shields to death in 1 second or less.
This is the kind of gameplay you guys are pushing for. It involves no skill whatsoever, just the press of a button and an AP Pinata(Sorc).
I think it's a great skill. I just don't think any class should walk around with an immovable buff that adds 15k+ effective health up at all times. Are you denying that Ward prevents stuns, knock backs, some snares, and most secondary weapon effects?
Like I said I have no problem with sorcerers having a shield or the way it scales. The duration and CC immunity needs to be looked at though.
@TheBull I quoted followed by "The amount of disinformation and complete ignorance in this thread is astounding."
That was directed at your quote. To anyone who PvPs it is obvious that Hardened Ward does *not* " prevents stuns and knock backs"
The fact that you and so many other people in this thread are speaking about how this ability is so powerful when you guys obviously don't understand many of the mechanics in the game and PvP is pretty damn scary to me which is why I made the notes that I don't see anyone notable in PvP in here complaining about hardened ward.
Anyone notable? Dude you are delusional.
Again like I said, ward is a great skill. It just last too long and should not grant CC immunity.
I'm delusional and you're telling *me* that an ability I've been using in Cyrodiil for 11 months behaves differently than it does. Got it. Have you ever even been to Cyrodiil? Did you land in the wrong forum by accident?
edit- *crickets* like I thought...
Yes of course I'm saying that. Along with everyone else who said that same.
It doesn't prevent any CC, snares, or anything of that nature. I can't believe we're having this conversation. Do you really believe hardened ward acts as a 20 second immovable or something?
Kinda funny all this time you never knew. I do not think you are intentionally lying.
If I must I will post I video. I would prefer you test then reply back though. We are all wrong sometimes. No big deal. I just hope you man up and admit it after you test. Take care.
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l25VXKcs-4I[/VIDEO]
I'm not surprised (no pun intended) that you have never noticed this. I find it funny, but not surprising. From any cool level headed person I would expect an apology. I don't believe you will give one though. In fact I believe you will not respond at all. If by some odd chance you do, you will attempt to move the goal post.
I do know you will read and watch this though. You knowing that I know, you know that you were wrong is good enough for me.
To you other three who chimed in, be careful what you co-sign. Like I have been saying, Ward is a great skill. It allows a lot of stat allocation diversity for sorcerers. I believe it last too long, and should not prevent things like sneak attack stun.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom is this working as intended?
So you are saying it does not prevent the things i just listed?
Hold on man are you saying Ward does not prevent sneak attack stun, an entire game mechanic? Stuns from surprise attack? Immobilize from cripple?
I'm not sure why you quoted what I said and linked it to people who snipe. I do not snipe.Imho Ward is a great skill it offers sorcerers a lot of stat allocation diversity. It shouldn't be removed.
That being said, it last too long. The duration needs to be much shorter. Also, right now it prevents stuns and knock backs this needs to be fixed.
The amount of disinformation and completely ignorance in this thread is astounding. We basically have the same people reiterating the same points over and over and not a single one of them has any credibility in PvP other than they want to play an LoLSniper and 1shot people.
Of course you guys want hardened ward with a shorter duration. You're tired of waiting 20 seconds to get that 1-shot snipe in. We get it.
I've been editing video for my next PvP video and I'm putting together a compilation of LOLSnipes where a single player kills me from 100% health and full shields to death in 1 second or less.
This is the kind of gameplay you guys are pushing for. It involves no skill whatsoever, just the press of a button and an AP Pinata(Sorc).
I think it's a great skill. I just don't think any class should walk around with an immovable buff that adds 15k+ effective health up at all times. Are you denying that Ward prevents stuns, knock backs, some snares, and most secondary weapon effects?
Like I said I have no problem with sorcerers having a shield or the way it scales. The duration and CC immunity needs to be looked at though.
@TheBull I quoted followed by "The amount of disinformation and complete ignorance in this thread is astounding."
That was directed at your quote. To anyone who PvPs it is obvious that Hardened Ward does *not* " prevents stuns and knock backs"
The fact that you and so many other people in this thread are speaking about how this ability is so powerful when you guys obviously don't understand many of the mechanics in the game and PvP is pretty damn scary to me which is why I made the notes that I don't see anyone notable in PvP in here complaining about hardened ward.
Anyone notable? Dude you are delusional.
Again like I said, ward is a great skill. It just last too long and should not grant CC immunity.
I'm delusional and you're telling *me* that an ability I've been using in Cyrodiil for 11 months behaves differently than it does. Got it. Have you ever even been to Cyrodiil? Did you land in the wrong forum by accident?
edit- *crickets* like I thought...
Yes of course I'm saying that. Along with everyone else who said that same.
It doesn't prevent any CC, snares, or anything of that nature. I can't believe we're having this conversation. Do you really believe hardened ward acts as a 20 second immovable or something?
Stop man. There is no mage light there. Just ward. Ward doing this was brought up many times on PTS during duels. I'm not out to get anyone. I'm not going to glitch the system to prove someone wrong. I've been wrong many times across many forums. I'm big enough to admit when I am.That video proves nothing. I can see the glowing aura around him he is running radiant magelight which does prevent that if you read the tool tip. It is currently bugged where the ball of light dont show up most of the time even though the skill is actually active.
I know this for a fact because I took RML off my bar last night and was stunned numerous times by stealth attacks with my ward up.
Good job cherry picking a video though, using a skill that's display is bugged 60% of the time, how many relogs did you have to do to get the RML to not appear? It happens to me usually every time I log.
The only way you will be stunned by a sneak attack through ward is if the attack breaks the ward. It appears that if no damage is registered during the attack the secondary effect will not proc.
If I must I will post the edited clips where my second attack did break the shield and he was stunned. No tin-foil hats needed.
Radiant is the only thing that prevents stun from stealth attacks. Period.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
Francescolg✭✭✭✭It is funny, how people that actually don't play a healer come to the forums to explain, why their 10k shield is worth (so much) less than a heal... and everybody acts as if they wouldn't know that most, by a large number, most healers in PvP also use absorb shields or HoT mechanics or other self-defense mechanics in 1 on 1 situations (because of healing-debuffs, not beeing able to target single players, etc etc). These people, many of them writing here, also close their eyes in view of the changed conditions after this patch, specifically for healer-templars, whose survivability -beside casting healings/purge all day long- is very similar to a sorcerer (without a 10k shield, without a teleport, etc.). Casting heals for defense in 1 on 1 encounters is also no real option, because an absorb shield is way better in case of being CC'd and other emergencies and CC occurs all the time in PvP, left and right, and healing debuff about 30-50% is often seen.
So no, healers do not just heal themselfes in 1v1 but prefer an absorb shield (vs. snipe, etc etc). We also rely on light-armor, have very low resistances and no escape spell at all.
We are arguing about 1v1 encounters, which happen quite often these days, as I can witness, even in keep-fights or when surrounded by the crowd, 1 on 1-situations occur very often to me. This is why this game should also be balanced for 1on1 situations. I do not accept the hint for a "group based"-game, in the case of ESO this seems wrong!
In a game with only 4 classes (!) all PvP-balancing has to take into account a typical 1 vs. 1 situation (without ultimates).
In the specific case: DD Sorcerer (resto/destru) vs. Healer/DD/magicka-Templar (resto/destru) we have the problem that none of the templar's skills will do enough damage to break the sorc's shield fast enough to disable the sorcerer from reapplying it (when both players are at 100% HP). We could try with DoTs but most templars don't use them (reason 1: the 10% crit bonus of reflective light is also activated by magicka pots, etc. etc // reason 2: DoT damage is insignificant, Instants hurt much better). DoTs do not help us to get you shield down. CC will only help 2-3 seconds, By this time the templar will hardly get through your shield (1 cast - 8.000 dmg, 2 cast - may hit, meanwhile sorc breaks-free and reapplies the shield)
Beside all the math, magicka-templars have to choose whether we want to spec for damage (spell dmg) or defense (HP, etc.). Going for spell dmg will help us to fight sorcerers but leaves us with absolutely no usable absorb shield, while resto- or light armor-shields alone are worse than a decent absorb-shield, especially light-armor shields often don't help ++ players focus on skills which are not reflected by other skills / which are not absorbed by light-armor shield)
As a sorc you can go for full burst and full absorb shield at the same time. So, effectively you could have only 13-15k HP + 10k HP, while having the same HP as players who renounced to have 3k-4k more damage on their spells by spell dmg.
This gap was created with 1.6. Most sorcerers are enjoying their max-dmg / max-shield build in PvP and the numerous "unwillingness to understand" is fully comprehensible. Nonetheless (beside all buffed stamina/HP-specs) we have other classes/specs in light armor which were hurt by 1.6. and JESUS-BEAM won't help at all.
As already happened very often, they nurfed templars more than buffing them. In front of the nurf-list stand: Radiant Aura and Blazing Shield, which was "acceptable" (to suck up one DD at least) and is now half the value of a 10k absorb shield, when going for spell dmg / magicka...
Going for max DD-damage has to come with a sacrifice, even for sorcerers! ;-)Edited by Francescolg on 24 March 2015 15:044
