1.6.5 Sorcerer detailed balance feedback

Jujujitsu

Roger that Erock25

halfbadger

Jujujitsu wrote: »

I understand what you mean, that if a sorc is using a pet... then it is a one button push. I am not a pet using sorc. I don't like that play style and I don't like pets constantly getting in my way when I am trying to do things. So for me, and many other sorcs, .... this actually will be a two button heal.

I would much prefer a one button instant heal.

I am not a dot using Dk. I don't like that play style and I don't like dots constantly doing damage. So for me, and many other dks, .... this actually is lower damage.

I would much prefer a one button instant damage.

Kragorn

Seraphyel wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

I guess the hoped for feedback about where the Devs are going with Sorcerers per @ZOS_GinaBruno is not going to happen before the weekend.

Sorry about that guys. Eric did start reading through the thread, but just didn't have time to write something up yet. Don't want you all to think we were completely ignoring you, though.

So it's quite unlikely that we will see actual Sorc adjustements before 1.6 goes live?

Why would we expect there would?

Eric's had a long time trying and failing to understand the horrible state he's put Sorc in, hardly likely to change after all this time even in the face of well-argued posts here, clearly ZOS' closed-group discussions have lead to where we are, all I expect from him (if anything) is a rebuttal of everything posted here.

Jujujitsu

halfbadger wrote: »

Jujujitsu wrote: »

I understand what you mean, that if a sorc is using a pet... then it is a one button push. I am not a pet using sorc. I don't like that play style and I don't like pets constantly getting in my way when I am trying to do things. So for me, and many other sorcs, .... this actually will be a two button heal.

I would much prefer a one button instant heal.

I am not a dot using Dk. I don't like that play style and I don't like dots constantly doing damage. So for me, and many other dks, .... this actually is lower damage.

I would much prefer a one button instant damage.

This thread was set up to discuss Sorc issues ... I would suggest that you take your DK issues to another thread. Thank you

Snit

Jujujitsu wrote: »

I would much prefer a one button instant heal.

We have a pretty terrific ability for this in Hardened Ward, the morph for non-pet builds. It's not a heal, but it is an excellent 'emergency death prevention technique' We can follow it up with a heal. It would be easier to just have a great heal, of course, but the absorb shields have an additional benefit in that we can pre-cast them.

Shields also synergize better with the new, low-mitigation Light Armor.

Snit

Erock25 wrote: »

That is what I got from that statement as well. I thought 1.6.4 WAS the sorc patch haha.

They're trying to go live next week, and we've all seen that 1.6.3 has a host of problems. I can't imagine now is the time to prioritize sorc class balance issues for them. That may be a longer-term discussion.

Speaking for myself, I'd be happy with assurances that they'll continue to look at it, and that the "Pfft.. sorcs are fine and players complain too much" response from the ESO Live a few weeks ago isn't held as etched-in-stone wisdom among the combat team.

I do hope they fix the bug so Streak procs Crystal Fragments again.

Erock25

Snit wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

That is what I got from that statement as well. I thought 1.6.4 WAS the sorc patch haha.

They're trying to go live next week, and we've all seen that 1.6.3 has a host of problems. I can't imagine now is the time to prioritize sorc class balance issues for them. That may be a longer-term discussion.

Speaking for myself, I'd be happy with assurances that they'll continue to look at it, and that the "Pfft.. sorcs are fine and players complain too much" response from the ESO Live a few weeks ago isn't held as etched-in-stone wisdom among the combat team.

I do hope they fix the bug so Streak procs Crystal Fragments again.

I know I'm a freaking broken record but it blows my mind how hard they shafted stamina sorc and that someone could even think that was okay. I can't believe it even got to PTS in 1.6 in this state and I'm even more angry that it will stay this way through multiple patches and ability changes. It is as if they were making the stamina morphs and passive changes for DK, Temp, and NB and then got to Sorc and literally just said 'F it, Sorc don't need any stamina options.'

DK changes that affect stamina builds

Searing Strike

Unstable Flames (morph): This ability now scales off Stamina and Attack Power and costs Stamina. Damage is mitigated by your target’s melee defense statistics.

Fiery Breath

Burning Breath (morph): This ability will now scale off of stamina and weapon power, and is mitigated by your target’s melee defense statistics. This ability now applies the Major Fracture debuff to your target.

Inferno

Flames of Oblivion (morph): This ability now provides the same effect as Inferno, as well as providing the Major Savagery (that is weapon crit) buff while active.

Molten Weapons

This ability will no longer buff allies. Instead, activating Molten Weapons will increase your heavy attack damage by 40% for 7 seconds. The duration increases with each additional rank.

Igneous Weapons (morph): Using a heavy attack while this ability is active will increase its duration by one second.

Molten Armaments (morph): This ability now increases the extra damage against low health targets.

Slightly reduced the cost of Molten Weapons and its morphs.

Earthen Heart

Mountain’s Blessing: This passive now also grants all allies within 30 meters the buff Minor Brutality for 10 seconds at Rank I, or 20 seconds at Rank II.

NB changes that affect stamina builds

Assassins Blade

Killer’s Blade (morph): This is now a stamina-based ability. The heal from this ability will now be applied if your target dies within 2 seconds of the ability being used, regardless of who killed the target.

Teleport Strike

Ambush: This ability now uses stamina instead of magicka, and applies the Minor Berserk buff on the next attack.

Mark Target

This ability now grants the Major Breach and Major Fracture buffs.
Removed the penalty from this ability.
This ability can now be cast on any target.
Reduced the cost of this ability by approximately 50%, and reduced the duration to 20 seconds.
Piercing Mark (morph): The duration of this ability now scales with ability ranks up to a maximum of 30 seconds.
Reaper’s Mark (morph): This ability now grants the Major Berserk buff for 8 seconds after the target is killed.

Veiled Strike

Surprise Attack (morph): This morph is now a stamina-based ability, now applies the Major Fracture debuff, and will no longer reduce your target’s armor if they dodge the initial attack.

Drain Power

The damage caused by Drain Power no longer scales with the number of targets hit. Instead, you will receive a Major Brutality buff when damaging at least one target.
Power Extraction (morph): This ability now scales off weapon damage and stamina instead of magicka and spell damage. The damage has also been increased by 10%.

Templar changes that affect stamina builds

Puncturing Strikes

Biting Jabs (morph): This ability now scales off stamina and weapon power, and now also provides the Major Savagery buff.

Piercing Javelin

Binding Javelin (morph): This ability now scales off stamina and weapon power.

Backlash

Power of Light (morph): This ability now applies the Minor Fracture debuff to your target, and the damage caps are derived from your maximum stamina.

Aedric Spear

Burning Light: The damage from this passive is now derived from your highest stats (stamina or magicka based).

Aedric Spear

Balance Warrior: Increased the weapon damage from this passive to 3% at Rank I, and 6% at Rank II.

Sorc changes that affect stamina builds

Bound Armor

Bound Armaments (morph): This ability now costs Stamina instead of Magicka, gives you a bonus to stamina instead of magicka, and increases the damage done by heavy attacks.

Dark Exchange

Dark Deal (morph): This ability now converts magicka into health and stamina.

Overload

Overload and Power Overload will now properly scale their damage off Weapon Damage and Stamina in the event that they are higher than Spell Power and Magicka.

halfbadger

@Erock25 Flames of Oblivion always gave weapon crit. Molten weapons affects staff heavy attacks and so is not a stamina morph. Mountain's blessing is a group buff so it's not exactly a dk stamina buff. Burning Breath doesn't do enough damage for it to be worth casting in a single target fight.
DKs did not get loads of stamina morphs.

madangrypally

Erock25 wrote: »

Overload
Overload and Power Overload will now properly scale their damage off Weapon Damage and Stamina in the event that they are higher than Spell Power and Magicka

While they did make it so Overload can scale with Stamina and Weapon Damage I dont find they made it usable for stamina builds.

Sorcerer has no viable stamina abilities other then from the weapon skill lines. When using Overload it makes it so no weapon abilities can be used. This means while using overload a stamina build wont have access to most of there main abilities.

IMO Overload still needs adjusted.

Power Overload: Removes the ranged light attack and AoE heavy attack. New effect: Baths weapon in lightening and deals increased damage per attack. Each attack drains Ultimate similar to Overload light attacks. Critical attacks explode and deal AoE damage. Damage has to be Ultimate good imo.

Jahosefat

ToRelax wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

he also mentioned velocious curse blowing up even though the target died

Yeah that's in, I thought it was a weird bug. That's a cool addition. And I'm super happy the heal is hear to stay *cheer* Thank you for the info!

It was in the Tooltip. Bugs are rarely explaining themselves in the tooltip...

I guess my point is that it was fairly inconsequential and just noticed it in passing; it isn't really a DPS buff more of a "you didn't just waste that mag cause the guy died right before you cast curse on him". It doesn't seem like a major skill mechanic that is going to boost DPS, just kind of a cool addition that will help every now and then. I saw it and was like "Huh, maybe that's a bug, but not really worth reporting that".

ToRelax

Jahosefat wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

he also mentioned velocious curse blowing up even though the target died

Yeah that's in, I thought it was a weird bug. That's a cool addition. And I'm super happy the heal is hear to stay *cheer* Thank you for the info!

It was in the Tooltip. Bugs are rarely explaining themselves in the tooltip...

I guess my point is that it was fairly inconsequential and just noticed it in passing; it isn't really a DPS buff more of a "you didn't just waste that mag cause the guy died right before you cast curse on him". It doesn't seem like a major skill mechanic that is going to boost DPS, just kind of a cool addition that will help every now and then. I saw it and was like "Huh, maybe that's a bug, but not really worth reporting that".

No, I meant the Clannfear wich you also mentioned in your post .

Jahosefat

ToRelax wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

he also mentioned velocious curse blowing up even though the target died

Yeah that's in, I thought it was a weird bug. That's a cool addition. And I'm super happy the heal is hear to stay *cheer* Thank you for the info!

It was in the Tooltip. Bugs are rarely explaining themselves in the tooltip...

I guess my point is that it was fairly inconsequential and just noticed it in passing; it isn't really a DPS buff more of a "you didn't just waste that mag cause the guy died right before you cast curse on him". It doesn't seem like a major skill mechanic that is going to boost DPS, just kind of a cool addition that will help every now and then. I saw it and was like "Huh, maybe that's a bug, but not really worth reporting that".

No, I meant the Clannfear wich you also mentioned in your post .

I saw the clanfear tootltip change, I made a post about it as soon as I did in another thread Never thought that was a bug, I was hoping it was here to stay!

Erock25

halfbadger wrote: »

@Erock25 Flames of Oblivion always gave weapon crit. Molten weapons affects staff heavy attacks and so is not a stamina morph. Mountain's blessing is a group buff so it's not exactly a dk stamina buff. Burning Breath doesn't do enough damage for it to be worth casting in a single target fight.
DKs did not get loads of stamina morphs.

@halfbadger Flames of Oblivion may have always gave weapon crit, but it also drained magicka, which it does not anymore so in my mind that is a + for stamina DKs. You will also notice I said changes that AFFECT stamina builds, not changes that ONLY BENEFIT stamina builds so the fact that molten weapons affects staffs as well as melee/bow weapons doesn't mean anything and I'm not sure why you brought it up. It is also laughable that you're trying to argue that a group wide 20 second weapon dmg buff isn't a bonus for DKs because it affects everyone. Where are the Sorc group wide buffs that help stamina builds? You are trying way too hard to fight every suggestion of buffing Sorc. I'm starting to question what your motivations are for hanging out on PTS forums. I don't see you posting 3600CP DK parses over and over again so you must be a DK main because it is pretty ridiculous to even suggest stamina Sorcs were not shafted.

You complain that one of your stamina morphs is aoe so useless on single target fights while sorc got a BIG FAT ZERO stamina attacks haha.

posthumecaver

Hi guys,

I am quite new to the game and I using the following build in live and I am extremely happy with.

mybuild

but if I understand everyhing correctly there would be huge changes on the classes during 1.6.

I don't fully understand the 1.6 changes (somehow we are more dependant on stamina as magicka, nerfed to critical surge self heal, change to Dark Conversion, armor(are we going to be 4 times more squishy with light amor?) or charge mechanics of the ultimates, etc).

So can anybody tell me do I have to change my build completely or it is still going to be viable?

Thx in advance.

Dracane

madangrypally wrote: »

Power Overload: Removes the ranged light attack and AoE heavy attack. New effect: Baths weapon in lightening and deals increased damage per attack. Each attack drains Ultimate similar to Overload light attacks. Critical attacks explode and deal AoE damage. Damage has to be Ultimate good imo.

That's exactly how everyone expected Overload to be, before the game was launched. We thought, you would Overload your weapons and they are replaced with stronger attacks. We thought, a light attack becomes a heavy attack and a heavy attack a stronger version

I really miss using weapon abilities on the Ultimate bar Ultimate was so much better when this was still in the game.

posthumecaver

Dracane wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

I really miss using weapon abilities on the Ultimate bar Ultimate was so much better when this was still in the game.

Does the hotbar of overload is also gone?

Dracane

posthumecaver wrote: »

Does the hotbar of overload is also gone?

It's still there. But you can only use class skills and guild skills on it. No weapon skills anymore.

Seraphyel

Dracane wrote: »

posthumecaver wrote: »

Does the hotbar of overload is also gone?

It's still there. But you can only use class skills and guild skills on it. No weapon skills anymore.

Still one bar more than everyone else got.

Dracane

Seraphyel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

posthumecaver wrote: »

Does the hotbar of overload is also gone?

It's still there. But you can only use class skills and guild skills on it. No weapon skills anymore.

Still one bar more than everyone else got.

But not a pure bar ^^ it's limited

madangrypally

I dont care if they remove the extra overload bar as long as I can use weapon attacks with it.

Snit

There are probably some of us not familiar with the term "Confirmation Bias." If so, google it up, then come back and reconsider the PTS forum. You'll learn something interesting about how our brains work

(This is not directed to any one poster. It's a universal tendency, at least among those of us who are humans)

Wolfchild07

Do NOT replace Daedric Mines, they work fine. Learn how to use them.

madangrypally

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Do NOT replace Daedric Mines, they work fine. Learn how to use them.

I agree. I like Daedric Mines but feel they need to be tweaked a little.

1: Make one of the morphs stamina based.
2: Make mines stop chargers. IE: If a mine is between me and the enemy and he charges. His charge should end on the mine and not reach me.

I nearly always have Daedric mines on one of my bars.

GilGalad

madangrypally wrote: »

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Do NOT replace Daedric Mines, they work fine. Learn how to use them.

I agree. I like Daedric Mines but feel they need to be tweaked a little.

1: Make one of the morphs stamina based.
2: Make mines stop chargers. IE: If a mine is between me and the enemy and he charges. His charge should end on the mine and not reach me.

I nearly always have Daedric mines on one of my bars.

Yeah they work fine, but you could also use the vulcanic rune (mages guild, fire rune morph), additionally you can place it wherever you want, get a 3 sec stun and deal almost the same dmg as real aoe dmg for less magicka. In my opinion it's superior to the daedric mines but feel free to convince me with good arguments.
If you need to root enemies you can still use encase.

If you have a problem with people charging at you try shooting them crustal fragments in the face or streak through them. Many players don't block or can't block while charging.
I play a ranged resto destro build in PVP and never had problems with melee builds, thanks to streak, cristal fragments and crushing shock to proc CF and kill stamina builds really fast.

madangrypally

I dont have many issues with players charging me, though I tend to charge many players. lol. There are ways to avoid charges I just thought it would be nice if Daedric Mines were one of them.


Lets compare Daedra mines to Volcanic Rune: Both are compared together with same passives and gear. All mages guild passives were taken and all Dark Magic passives were taken.

Daedric Mines:
Cost: 4436 Magicka
Damage: 3982 Magic Damage per mine and 1.5 second root. 11946 if all 3 mines go off.
Duration: 36 seconds.
Activates after 3 seconds.
Other benefits: Each explosion heals 8% of players max health. (if all three goes off that's 24% max health heal)
Gives players and allies Minor Prophecy for 20 seconds.

Volcanic Rune:
Cost: 2300 Magicka
Damage: 2765 Flame Damage knocking them back and stunning them for 4 seconds.
Duration 36 seconds.
Activates instantly.
Other benefits: Activating mages guild ability grant empower on next attack. Slotting a mages guild ability grants 2% Max Magicka and Magicka Regeneration.

=====================================================================

Things I notice when comparing:
1: Damn Daedric Mines is expensive.
2: Daedric Mines deals more then 4.3 times the damage of Volcanic Rune. (Btw its neither attack deals AoE damage was wrong Volcanic Rune is very small radius AoE.)
3: Daedric Mines roots the enemy 1.5 seconds. Can root 1 time per mine so 3 possible roots. Roots are not a hard cc so enemy does not gain cc immunity for the roots.
4: Player can arm mines instantly with a morph or can summon 5 mines instead of 3. (I pick the 5 mines)
5: Volcanic Rune can be placed where ever the caster chooses which is great.
6: Daedric Mines are placed around the caster.
7: Magick Damage dealt is better the Fire Damage Dealt.

IMO I use both when fighting melee based characters. I summon my 5 mines and stand in the middle or one one of the mines. I also have volcanic rune under my feet when needed to make the enemy waste stamina cc breaking.

Both are good but I like my Daedric Mines so rather not see them removed. Would like to see one of the morphs stamina based though. If they stopped a charge attack it could even be nearly OP>

ToRelax

Gil.Galad wrote: »

madangrypally wrote: »

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Do NOT replace Daedric Mines, they work fine. Learn how to use them.

I agree. I like Daedric Mines but feel they need to be tweaked a little.

1: Make one of the morphs stamina based.
2: Make mines stop chargers. IE: If a mine is between me and the enemy and he charges. His charge should end on the mine and not reach me.

I nearly always have Daedric mines on one of my bars.

Yeah they work fine, but you could also use the vulcanic rune (mages guild, fire rune morph), additionally you can place it wherever you want, get a 3 sec stun and deal almost the same dmg as real aoe dmg for less magicka. In my opinion it's superior to the daedric mines but feel free to convince me with good arguments.
If you need to root enemies you can still use encase.

If you have a problem with people charging at you try shooting them crustal fragments in the face or streak through them. Many players don't block or can't block while charging.
I play a ranged resto destro build in PVP and never had problems with melee builds, thanks to streak, cristal fragments and crushing shock to proc CF and kill stamina builds really fast.

Mines shouldn't be outclassed by a Mage's Guild ability. Good thing they aren't.

+ Minefield roots, so they will cc even if if the enemy is cc immune.
+ Minefield has overall higher damage potential.
+ Minefield will heal you when hitting someone.
+ Minefield covers a larger area.
+ Minefield does not have to be recasted as often as enemies are not using them all up and you can simply change your positon.

- Volcanic Rune can stop chargers.
- Volcanic Rune can "deal fall damage".
- Volcanic Rune has superior passives for slotting it.
- Volcanic Rune triggers empower with Might of the Guild passive.
- Volcanic Rune is ranged and activates slightly faster (the projectile still has to land first)

Wolfchild07

Volcanic Rune (Fire Rune for me cause I haven't been using it on current character) - does 190 damage to each creature. That's fine if it hits all of them, and is mostly useless against anything immune to stuns. Same goes for Encase, which won't even explode (Shattering morph) if they're immune.

Daedric Minefield (morph) - Gives me 5 mines at 198 damage each. Still very useful against groups, and against opponents that are immune it's still fantastic cause they run over all of them and take full damage, especially the large ones such as frost/storm atronachs, and Dwarven Centurions/multiple bosses throughout the world.

GilGalad

The only real argument for mines I see is the root being a soft CC and the heal. If any enemy runs into several mines, he must be so bad that you would kill him anyway. In PVE they are useless thanks to the boss immunity after getting hit by one mine.

I'm not saying they don't have any use but I say if they where gone you could still use the vulcanic rune and get a skill in exchange that is more unique and offer more flexibility and utility to the sorcerer. The daedric mines aren't really special in my opinion.

madangrypally

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Volcanic Rune (Fire Rune for me cause I haven't been using it on current character) - does 190 damage to each creature. That's fine if it hits all of them, and is mostly useless against anything immune to stuns. Same goes for Encase, which won't even explode (Shattering morph) if they're immune.

Daedric Minefield (morph) - Gives me 5 mines at 198 damage each. Still very useful against groups, and against opponents that are immune it's still fantastic cause they run over all of them and take full damage, especially the large ones such as frost/storm atronachs, and Dwarven Centurions/multiple bosses throughout the world.

Daedric Mines scale a lot better then Volcanic Rune. With crappy PTS template gear 3 mines deal 4.3 times more damage then the Volcanic Rune. Daedric Minefield will do nearly 6 times more damage then Volcanic Rune.

I just tested Fire Rune and Volcanic Rune and they do deal very small range AoE damage. Did not know that. lol. Still like Mines better.

ToRelax

Gil.Galad wrote: »

The only real argument for mines I see is the root being a soft CC and the heal. If any enemy runs into several mines, he must be so bad that you would kill him anyway. In PVE they are useless thanks to the boss immunity after getting hit by one mine.

I'm not saying they don't have any use but I say if they where gone you could still use the vulcanic rune and get a skill in exchange that is more unique and offer more flexibility and utility to the sorcerer. The daedric mines aren't really special in my opinion.

Against a good player, Volcanic Rune is crap and Minefield is great.

On first glance they seem pretty similar but are in teh end very different, as I explained above.

Volcanic Rune just can't replace Mines (and vice versa).