1.6.5 Sorcerer detailed balance feedback

kkampaseb17_ESO

Exstazik wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

Live: weapon dmg-159 (magicka sorc build)
Surge:add 80 weapon power (~+50% weapon power)
Dawnbreaker:+13% weapon dmg


PTS:
Surge:20% spell dmg
Dawnbreaker:do not affected staff users anymore (ninja nerf)
Crushing shock:10% nerf..

Total:staff useless for sorc.What i missed?

FORCE PULSE.

oh yeah! Only 43% nerf

Not enough skill bar

Yea ok, but this nerf actually affected hugely stamina builds big time. And please don't tell me about 2h...there are other weapons for stamina apart from the outperforming 2h atm. Stamina build =/= 2h.

GreyRanger

On a parallel issue (Stamina Sorcerers), it seems that part of the problem is that as ZOS has changed passives the person(s) doing the Sorcerer design appeared not to realize that some people will try to play a stamina sorcerer, nuts I know . A simple fix to that part of the problem is to make sure when you modify a passive it boosts both magicka and stamina builds. So, a passive that boosts spell power also boosts weapon power and the same for critical. This won't solve everything, but it will help pull stamina sorcerers along as the make changes to address magicka based sorcerers.

c0rp

This guy just fixed the sorc....and I bet NOTHING gets done about it. We will see.

samiz1

All that has been said in this thread is very interesting for the sorcerer to be taken in PVE group,
But does anyone listen to us ?
Changes will be made ?

Personnaly I do not think and I hope that a responsible will contradict me.

darkrozes_rob16_ESO

kkampaseb17_ESO wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Exstazik wrote: »

Live: weapon dmg-159 (magicka sorc build)
Surge:add 80 weapon power (~+50% weapon power)
Dawnbreaker:+13% weapon dmg


PTS:
Surge:20% spell dmg
Dawnbreaker:do not affected staff users anymore (ninja nerf)
Crushing shock:10% nerf..

Total:staff useless for sorc.What i missed?

FORCE PULSE.

oh yeah! Only 43% nerf

Not enough skill bar

Yea ok, but this nerf actually affected hugely stamina builds big time. And please don't tell me about 2h...there are other weapons for stamina apart from the outperforming 2h atm. Stamina build =/= 2h.

Lol u are right, try doing it with 2 pets You gonna need at least 1 more slot BTW! Bound armor, only 1k armor on PTS .... seriously ? We get like 5k armor on full light + staff, and the buff only gives 1k.... Lightning form is cool but other classes can use Imovable... for the same stats

Grao

Great post @Gil.Galad. I agree with most of your points, though I'd probably mention the need for some extra improvements to Lightning Splash.

I also think instead of replacing the Matriarch's healing, I'd love if its heal could target any ally bellow 30% health and instant heal that target (instead of a channeled heal). While that wouldn't give sorcerers extra sustained HPS, we'd have a good burst heal.

Snit

pppontus wrote: »

I'd really rather see them remove the passive from FD.. I really think it's stupid having to slot an ultimate only because of the passive boost

Absolutely. Ultimates should be powerful and fun, not primarily a passive. I'm happy that FD is now useless for my magicka sorc, as Atronach, Meteor and Overload are considerably more fun.

cozmon3c_ESO

Laerwen wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Laerwen wrote: »

Another Streak Bug/Ninja Nerf (New):

On the live server you can streak in any direction your reticle (camera) is facing. On PTS you can ONLY streak in the direction your character is facing. It is very frustrating that this ability is getting nerfed into oblivion. It is very important for the usefulness of the skill to be able to streak in the direction your camera is facing! Please fix that!

Also just to bring it up again in hopes of finally getting an answer, Streak and Encase are no longer procing Crystal Fragments.

True but I thought it has to do with the new animation system.

It is annoying sometimes though, if it's intentional, please change it back, doesn't seem to make much sense.

I don't think it is. You will change directions if you use an ability or weapon attack but not if you use streak, which is bonkers.

the streak and encase not going the direction you're aiming but the direction your character is facing has been brought up to eric wrobel directly in a meeting a couple weeks ago.
this is probably the main reason why encase feels so damn clunky, your aiming one way thinking encase will go that way but it ends up going the direction your character is facing instead totally wasting mana and missing your target completely.

cozmon3c_ESO

Vis wrote: »

Seeing a slight delay in the Mage's Fury on pts. Have noticed on live too, is that just wierd server lag or a bug?

i think its been there since the beginning of the game, i always assumed the delay was a balancing thing since it is a long ranged execute that last for 4 seconds on a target. it is frustrating when you almost killed someone and your mages fury hits them but they are able to heal somehow before the execute even tries to go off. its like heals have a higher priority over damage and will always give a person time to heal. I should have asked Eric Wrobel when i had his ear, but so much stuff is broken that i didn't have time to even talk about it with him.

Snit

We need to know if the new Unstable Clannfear heal-on-unsummon behavior is intended. It's a powerful self-heal. But chain summoning a pet (for a 35% heal each cycle) seems odd enough that I wonder if it's meant to act that way.

If it is intended to act that way, it's time we sorcs stopped talking about our poor class self-heal. 1.6 Unstable Clannfear is basically a slightly clunkier premorph Dragon Blood.

GilGalad

I just edited the OP and added a video that shows the power of the Clannfear selfheal.This should not make it to live.

Snit

Gil.Galad wrote: »

I just edited the OP and added a video that shows the power of the Clannfear selfheal.This should not make it to live.

I think I agree, if only because it's such a strange iteration of a self-heal. I'd note, though, that its healing efficiency is not out-of-line with the DK self-heal. The mana efficiency, however, is a bit off-the-charts.

I wonder if they could change Rebate to refund less mana on an intentional unsummon.

Reykice

Snit wrote: »

We need to know if the new Unstable Clannfear behavior is intended. It's a powerful self-heal. But chain summoning a pet (for a 35% heal each cycle) seems odd enough that I wonder if it's meant to act that way.

If it is intended to act that way, it's time we sorcs stopped talking about our poor class self-heal. 1.6 Unstable Clannfear is basically a slightly clunkier premorph Dragon Blood.

Notice how it takes double the time to cast as you must summon and unsummon it?

Notice the magicka cost making it so veeeeeery expensive?

Unless you use the 3600 champion points that you will only get 3+ years from now, you will run out of magicka... not to mention that 35% of your hp will be gone in less time that it takes to cast that spell, a normal VR 13 archer does up to 14k damage.

That is more or less intended to be the "oh you tank pet died, here get some hp back" kind of deal... that can also be used in emergencies but the magicka cost is high and the double cast makes it not very practical.

Don`t know about you but even with 20k hp and full 3600 champ points for mitigation and so on... i get 2 shotted by PVE NPC`s... archers are usually a pain in the ass. And as a bonus, the one spell that increases mitigation, the lightning form.... does small amounts of damage to everyone around you and makes Critical Surge proc on useless small heals thus denying your bigger spells from healing you. Yey!

I think light armor users will be really sad to see that they now get 2shotted by PVE npc`s and even with both Bound Armor AND Lightning Form on you are still below the armor rating a normal medium armor user has. Now imagine if he also uses those spells.... he can actually tank something while you will die. :-)

Anyway, with hits doing 3k up to 14k from normal NPC`s, the only way to "survive" the hits is to let the pet take them for you - its intended role. If you are the target, spamming a ward will help more as you have no mitigation in light armor anyway, so you might as well use the wards that offer more protection per cast for a lot less magicka.

EDIT: Even with rebate, the time it takes.... to cast it....

Either way i bet its more of a PvP problem if any.... and i don`t think they should balance with PvP in mind when 95% of the game is PvE.

Erock25

Reykice wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

We need to know if the new Unstable Clannfear behavior is intended. It's a powerful self-heal. But chain summoning a pet (for a 35% heal each cycle) seems odd enough that I wonder if it's meant to act that way.

If it is intended to act that way, it's time we sorcs stopped talking about our poor class self-heal. 1.6 Unstable Clannfear is basically a slightly clunkier premorph Dragon Blood.

Notice how it takes double the time to cast as you must summon and unsummon it?

Notice the magicka cost making it so veeeeeery expensive?

Unless you use the 3600 champion points that you will only get 3+ years from now, you will run out of magicka... not to mention that 35% of your hp will be gone in less time that it takes to cast that spell, a normal VR 13 archer does up to 14k damage.

That is more or less intended to be the "oh you tank pet died, here get some hp back" kind of deal... that can also be used in emergencies but the magicka cost is high and the double cast makes it not very practical.

Don`t know about you but even with 20k hp and full 3600 champ points for mitigation and so on... i get 2 shotted by PVE NPC`s... archers are usually a pain in the ass. And as a bonus, the one spell that increases mitigation, the lightning form.... does small amounts of damage to everyone around you and makes Critical Surge proc on useless small heals thus denying your bigger spells from healing you. Yey!

I think light armor users will be really sad to see that they now get 2shotted by PVE npc`s and even with both Bound Armor AND Lightning Form on you are still below the armor rating a normal medium armor user has. Now imagine if he also uses those spells.... he can actually tank something while you will die. :-)

Anyway, with hits doing 3k up to 14k from normal NPC`s, the only way to "survive" the hits is to let the pet take them for you - its intended role. If you are the target, spamming a ward will help more as you have no mitigation in light armor anyway, so you might as well use the wards that offer more protection per cast for a lot less magicka.

I'm fairly certain my clannfear was like a 6k magicka cost. With 28k magicka, the Rebate passive will give me 4200 magicka back. Add a few more CP into the mix and your magicka costs go down and magicka pool goes up. No matter how you try to spin it, this clannfear heal is broken OP.

cozmon3c_ESO

Erock25 wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

We need to know if the new Unstable Clannfear behavior is intended. It's a powerful self-heal. But chain summoning a pet (for a 35% heal each cycle) seems odd enough that I wonder if it's meant to act that way.

If it is intended to act that way, it's time we sorcs stopped talking about our poor class self-heal. 1.6 Unstable Clannfear is basically a slightly clunkier premorph Dragon Blood.

Notice how it takes double the time to cast as you must summon and unsummon it?

Notice the magicka cost making it so veeeeeery expensive?

Unless you use the 3600 champion points that you will only get 3+ years from now, you will run out of magicka... not to mention that 35% of your hp will be gone in less time that it takes to cast that spell, a normal VR 13 archer does up to 14k damage.

That is more or less intended to be the "oh you tank pet died, here get some hp back" kind of deal... that can also be used in emergencies but the magicka cost is high and the double cast makes it not very practical.

Don`t know about you but even with 20k hp and full 3600 champ points for mitigation and so on... i get 2 shotted by PVE NPC`s... archers are usually a pain in the ass. And as a bonus, the one spell that increases mitigation, the lightning form.... does small amounts of damage to everyone around you and makes Critical Surge proc on useless small heals thus denying your bigger spells from healing you. Yey!

I think light armor users will be really sad to see that they now get 2shotted by PVE npc`s and even with both Bound Armor AND Lightning Form on you are still below the armor rating a normal medium armor user has. Now imagine if he also uses those spells.... he can actually tank something while you will die. :-)

Anyway, with hits doing 3k up to 14k from normal NPC`s, the only way to "survive" the hits is to let the pet take them for you - its intended role. If you are the target, spamming a ward will help more as you have no mitigation in light armor anyway, so you might as well use the wards that offer more protection per cast for a lot less magicka.

I'm fairly certain my clannfear was like a 6k magicka cost. With 28k magicka, the Rebate passive will give me 4200 magicka back. Add a few more CP into the mix and your magicka costs go down and magicka pool goes up. No matter how you try to spin it, this clannfear heal is broken OP.

Look how sorcs will point this out, but a DK would never ever say this about there Dragons Blood, lol. Sorcs just want to have fun, and be balanced.

Snit

Reykice wrote: »

Notice how it takes double the time to cast as you must summon and unsummon it?

Notice the magicka cost making it so veeeeeery expensive?.

As I said, it's a clunkier Dragon's Blood, as you need two GCD's and two keypresses to activate it. As for the magicka cost, the Rebate passive makes it trivial. Even if sorcs are meant to have a truly good self-heal, that last bit seems a bit too good to be true.

This is pretty easy to test for yourself.

cozmon3c_ESO

they could fix this mana back on desummon/ death of a pet just by changing the passive rebate to give you like 10% mana recover over like 5-10 seconds so you dont get mana back instantly. this will make the clanfear desummon/death act like green dragons blood for dk, but be with a heal with magicka regen and not a heal with stam regen.

Reykice

Erock25 wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

We need to know if the new Unstable Clannfear behavior is intended. It's a powerful self-heal. But chain summoning a pet (for a 35% heal each cycle) seems odd enough that I wonder if it's meant to act that way.

If it is intended to act that way, it's time we sorcs stopped talking about our poor class self-heal. 1.6 Unstable Clannfear is basically a slightly clunkier premorph Dragon Blood.

Notice how it takes double the time to cast as you must summon and unsummon it?

Notice the magicka cost making it so veeeeeery expensive?

Unless you use the 3600 champion points that you will only get 3+ years from now, you will run out of magicka... not to mention that 35% of your hp will be gone in less time that it takes to cast that spell, a normal VR 13 archer does up to 14k damage.

That is more or less intended to be the "oh you tank pet died, here get some hp back" kind of deal... that can also be used in emergencies but the magicka cost is high and the double cast makes it not very practical.

Don`t know about you but even with 20k hp and full 3600 champ points for mitigation and so on... i get 2 shotted by PVE NPC`s... archers are usually a pain in the ass. And as a bonus, the one spell that increases mitigation, the lightning form.... does small amounts of damage to everyone around you and makes Critical Surge proc on useless small heals thus denying your bigger spells from healing you. Yey!

I think light armor users will be really sad to see that they now get 2shotted by PVE npc`s and even with both Bound Armor AND Lightning Form on you are still below the armor rating a normal medium armor user has. Now imagine if he also uses those spells.... he can actually tank something while you will die. :-)

Anyway, with hits doing 3k up to 14k from normal NPC`s, the only way to "survive" the hits is to let the pet take them for you - its intended role. If you are the target, spamming a ward will help more as you have no mitigation in light armor anyway, so you might as well use the wards that offer more protection per cast for a lot less magicka.

I'm fairly certain my clannfear was like a 6k magicka cost. With 28k magicka, the Rebate passive will give me 4200 magicka back. Add a few more CP into the mix and your magicka costs go down and magicka pool goes up. No matter how you try to spin it, this clannfear heal is broken OP.

Well, then they can just remove it if it upsets the balance all that much... and give our surge back. :-)

I really did not find it practical to use it due to the duration, by the time i got the heal and recasted it i`d be dead.

Anyway i think it would be better to remove it than to add a cast time for the pet...

cozmon3c_ESO

Reykice wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Reykice wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

We need to know if the new Unstable Clannfear behavior is intended. It's a powerful self-heal. But chain summoning a pet (for a 35% heal each cycle) seems odd enough that I wonder if it's meant to act that way.

If it is intended to act that way, it's time we sorcs stopped talking about our poor class self-heal. 1.6 Unstable Clannfear is basically a slightly clunkier premorph Dragon Blood.

Notice how it takes double the time to cast as you must summon and unsummon it?

Notice the magicka cost making it so veeeeeery expensive?

Unless you use the 3600 champion points that you will only get 3+ years from now, you will run out of magicka... not to mention that 35% of your hp will be gone in less time that it takes to cast that spell, a normal VR 13 archer does up to 14k damage.

That is more or less intended to be the "oh you tank pet died, here get some hp back" kind of deal... that can also be used in emergencies but the magicka cost is high and the double cast makes it not very practical.

Don`t know about you but even with 20k hp and full 3600 champ points for mitigation and so on... i get 2 shotted by PVE NPC`s... archers are usually a pain in the ass. And as a bonus, the one spell that increases mitigation, the lightning form.... does small amounts of damage to everyone around you and makes Critical Surge proc on useless small heals thus denying your bigger spells from healing you. Yey!

I think light armor users will be really sad to see that they now get 2shotted by PVE npc`s and even with both Bound Armor AND Lightning Form on you are still below the armor rating a normal medium armor user has. Now imagine if he also uses those spells.... he can actually tank something while you will die. :-)

Anyway, with hits doing 3k up to 14k from normal NPC`s, the only way to "survive" the hits is to let the pet take them for you - its intended role. If you are the target, spamming a ward will help more as you have no mitigation in light armor anyway, so you might as well use the wards that offer more protection per cast for a lot less magicka.

I'm fairly certain my clannfear was like a 6k magicka cost. With 28k magicka, the Rebate passive will give me 4200 magicka back. Add a few more CP into the mix and your magicka costs go down and magicka pool goes up. No matter how you try to spin it, this clannfear heal is broken OP.

Well, then they can just remove it if it upsets the balance all that much... and give our surge back. :-)

I really did not find it practical to use it due to the duration, by the time i got the heal and recasted it i`d be dead.

Anyway i think it would be better to remove it than to add a cast time for the pet...

I could make use of this. Shield stack on my offbar, switch to my main cast clan fear. When my Sheilds break I can just weapon swap to despawn the clan fear, get healed giving me time to reapply shields, rinse repeat. Survival.

Jahosefat

I was so excited when I saw the heal, don't take ma healz plzz I was finally going to be able to make a sorc aoe pvp block-cast tank Temp/nb/dk all have builds where they can curl up in the middle of a group and drop people with aoe, it's time for the Sorc Tanks!

GreyRanger

I would love to see a viable Sorc heal and tank, but this mechanic for a self heal is just awful, in my view. Just give us dragon blood under a new name and skin if you want to start balancing things out, thank you.

Valnas

I'd like a stamina management tool in 1.6. Nb's get regen, dk's get mtn bless passives and roar, temps have actvie and passive regens. We have a 4 second channel morph.

Bound Armor and/or Exchange could use a boost to either passive sta regen, dodge, or a specific reduction on the level w/ posture for rolling or breaking free.

Robbmrp

Gil.Galad wrote: »

I just edited the OP and added a video that shows the power of the Clannfear selfheal.This should not make it to live.

Yeah, that's clearly a bug with how summoning is supposed to work. They will fix this for sure.

Lied

Valnas wrote: »

I'd like a stamina management tool in 1.6. Nb's get regen, dk's get mtn bless passives and roar, temps have actvie and passive regens. We have a 4 second channel morph.

Bound Armor and/or Exchange could use a boost to either passive sta regen, dodge, or a specific reduction on the level w/ posture for rolling or breaking free.

I was thinking bound armor would make sense for a stamina morph too. Regen, cost reduction, or some clever proc mechanic.

glak

They can buff destro/resto staves to where they should be simply by giving them the same spell power that 2H gives.

Seraphyel

Seraphyel wrote: »

I think I will make some additional suggestions, similar things are said by the OP but I want to say and make them again:

Sorcerer as healers:

As we know now, Sorcerers may be the least adequate class for being a healer. They seem to have a better ressource management, but the changes made to Surge and the overall lack of a healer dedicated passive or active ability make the Sorcerer the least versatile healer. They were even surpassed by DKs with 1.6.

How to solve this?

Give the Sorcerer some kind of off-healing pets. We got the Twilight that heals us if we drop below 30% health, but it could be revamped in something like this:

* Applies an AoE-HoT to the group that lasts for 10 seconds and heals for X. 20 second CD.

* When a target drops below 50% life, the Twilight will heal it dependent on the health lost - channeled heal with a 10 second CD.

A similar thing should been added to the Atronarch - give it a morph where it heals instead of dealing damage.

* Heals the target with the lowest health for X amount and every character within 5m range for 50% of the initial heal. 6 second CD.

* Shield the target with the highest aggro for X. 8 second CD.


Passive:

Daedric Protection: Should be made a group-wide buff with higher percentages.

Actives:

Bound Armor: Why not add some kind of healing buff? As long as you have the armor activated, your healings are 15% more effective OR 15% of your dealt damage are turned into group heal .


Those tweaks would make the Sorc a different and better healer. Why not heal with the help of our pets?
______________

Dark Magic:

Daedric Mines: Give this ability a ranged morph, e.g. something like this - apply 3 Daedric Mines to your target. Each mine explodes after you dealt X damage. Only one mine can be triggered within 5 seconds. Only one target can be infected with Daedric Mines. Lasts for 30 seconds - if all three mines last 30 seconds, they will explode for 50% of the total damage. 28m range.

Rune Prison & Encase: Fuse those two into one.

...

more to come.

Lightning Splash: Make it an enemy centric attack like a real DoT. The AoE happens around the target, if it moves, the AoE moves. Would solve many issues with Lightning Splash.

Surge: Don't know where to start. Just revamp the whole ability that it is useful again.

(Gil, my Daedric Mines suggestion is no DoT, it's triggered burst damage like Curse - I like that kind of thing that Sorcs have, Curse, Mages Wrath etc.)

Dracane

The video with the Clannfear heal is so cool actually. A Sorcerer knight with his pets and his lightning
I hope, this heal is intended. Other classes can heal for much more and much faster.

Erock25

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we have all been keeping a close watch on Sorcerer feedback.

We hope to have some answers for you before the weekend - we haven't forgotten!

@ZOS_GinaBruno Is this Saturday maintenance related to the Sorc at all? I thought maintenance wasn't patch note related, so I'm not sure. Any hints about what some answers are for those of us who refresh the PTS forums every 30 seconds hoping to find more dev posts?

Jahosefat

Lightning Form- From a pvp perspective I really like the idea of this ability and its morphs, and I have tried to make a place for it on my bar in all of my past builds but could never make it fit. Hardened Ward offered more protection as I could spam that when taking high amounts of damage; there was no way for me to "boost" the mitigation offered by lightning form by dumping mag.

Boundless Storm- I like it, the run speed synergizes well with the mitigation and even the aoe (easier to chase someone and aoe them). Has many uses, can help tank, can help run/chase, can be used to knock people out of stealth or keep people from going vanished right in front of you. I don't see a need for changes here.

Thundering Presence- This I take as the morph that was designed to be the "tankier" option; forego the mobility for more mitigation. Though I like the idea of making the duration longer saving on mag and button-mashing time, this morph really doesn't feel stronger than the other. The increased duration is small and the mitigation is the same, it just lasts longer. This would be a morph I would look at improving for sorc tanks. I think this could go a few different ways. One problem with sorc tanking is the lack of heals while in a S&B stance. If thundering presence had a heal mechanic similar to rally, where regularly refreshing it provides a large heal but it can be spammed for a burst of healing at a high mag cost, that would be awesome and open many doors. If healing is something they want to stay away from, maybe double armor/resist bonus for the first 5 seconds or a stam/health regen buff for a short period after casting; maybe even a block cost reduction or increased mitigation for slotting. We just really don't have a button we can keep hitting to keep us alive like green dragon's blood or sap etc. and I think thundering presence could be the ability to modify. I like the idea of a heal because it un-tethers us from the resto staff and would allow us to tank without a pocket healer.

Jujujitsu

I do have to chuckle a little bit, as a Sorc, when I see our community say that a 35% heal is OP. Really?

EDIT: I am talking about the Clanfear unsummon here.

We have to cast it TWICE. Which with server lag, especially in PvP, makes it a button smash and unreliable. Then I go look at the DK skill Green Dragon Blood ... Heals for 33% missing health, increases health recovery by 40% and stamina recovery by 27% for 20 seconds!

Ok, with passives the cost may eventually be negligible or nothing. We still have to cast it TWICE and hope that it fires. If this is too OP ... fine. Just give us Green Dragon Blood but make it regen magicka and call it Mage's Blood, or Demon Blood, or Elemental Blood.

I think the response from our community, the thirst for any kind of positive change, is indicative to the quality of our current state.

@Gil.Galad Thank you for this thread and your ability to keep it calm and controlled.