1.6.5 Sorcerer detailed balance feedback

GreyRanger

I would be happy to see dragon blood renamed and reskinned on the sorcerer. We could have 1 morph that buffs stamina regen and one that buffs magicka. Simple. We know it is not OP since DKs have had it for a year. It could replace dark exchange which is junk.

I guess the hoped for feedback about where the Devs are going with Sorcerers per @ZOS_GinaBruno is not going to happen before the weekend. Hopefully things will be clearer and better when the patch notes for 1.6.4 are posted tomorrow, but I am doubtful. Sorcerers are a mess in every role (stam DPS, magicka DPS, tank, and healer), so it is hard to imagine one patch after a year that puts things to rights. Maybe it will be progress.

Dracane

Jujujitsu wrote: »

I do have to chuckle a little bit, as a Sorc, when I see our community say that a 35% heal is OP. Really?

EDIT: I am talking about the Clanfear unsummon here.

We have to cast it TWICE. Which with server lag, especially in PvP, makes it a button smash and unreliable. Then I go look at the DK skill Green Dragon Blood ... Heals for 33% missing health, increases health recovery by 40% and stamina recovery by 27% for 20 seconds!

Ok, with passives the cost may eventually be negligible or nothing. We still have to cast it TWICE and hope that it fires. If this is too OP ... fine. Just give us Green Dragon Blood but make it regen magicka and call it Mage's Blood, or Demon Blood, or Elemental Blood.

I think the response from our community, the thirst for any kind of positive change, is indicative to the quality of our current state.

@Gil.Galad Thank you for this thread and your ability to keep it calm and controlled.

And we also have to remember, there is a cooldown on pets. To prevent volatile familiar spam, they have implemented a cooldown to the familiar and morphs. So it takes 1 seconds or so, until the clannfear appears.

But wouldn't they have announced such a big and cool change with the patchnotes ? They just implement a cool heal to Sorc and don't mention it ^^ that's why I think, it is a bug and we shouldn't fall in love with it.

Voltos

Please consider my idea for Surge.

Surge:
Charge your weapons with the power of lightning for 20 seconds. Light and Heavy attacks cause a surge of electrical damage against your target, dealing 7% of damage done over 10 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. All critical strikes heal you for 50% of damage done. Arc damage is increased each level by 1%.

Power Surge(Morph) -
Charge your weapons with the power of lightning for 20 seconds. Weapon attacks cause a surge of electrical damage against your target, dealing 10% of damage done over 10 seconds, stacking up to 3 times. All critical strikes heal for 50% of damage done. You now receive the Major Brutality, Major Sorcery and Major Endurance buffs.

Spell Surge(Morph) -
Charge your weapons with the power of lightning for 20 seconds. Weapon attacks cause a surge of electrical damage against your target, arching to the nearest three allies within 10 meters, healing them for for 10% of the damage done over 10 seconds. All critical strikes heal for you for 40% and your allies for 20% of the damage done. You now receive the Major Sorcery and Major Intellect buffs.[/b]

cozmon3c_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

Jujujitsu wrote: »

I do have to chuckle a little bit, as a Sorc, when I see our community say that a 35% heal is OP. Really?

EDIT: I am talking about the Clanfear unsummon here.

We have to cast it TWICE. Which with server lag, especially in PvP, makes it a button smash and unreliable. Then I go look at the DK skill Green Dragon Blood ... Heals for 33% missing health, increases health recovery by 40% and stamina recovery by 27% for 20 seconds!

Ok, with passives the cost may eventually be negligible or nothing. We still have to cast it TWICE and hope that it fires. If this is too OP ... fine. Just give us Green Dragon Blood but make it regen magicka and call it Mage's Blood, or Demon Blood, or Elemental Blood.

I think the response from our community, the thirst for any kind of positive change, is indicative to the quality of our current state.

@Gil.Galad Thank you for this thread and your ability to keep it calm and controlled.

And we also have to remember, there is a cooldown on pets. To prevent volatile familiar spam, they have implemented a cooldown to the familiar and morphs. So it takes 1 seconds or so, until the clannfear appears.

But wouldn't they have announced such a big and cool change with the patchnotes ? They just implement a cool heal to Sorc and don't mention it ^^ that's why I think, it is a bug and we shouldn't fall in love with it.

had a meeting with eric wrobel, he said he was adding it in so its not a bug, though i didnt think they implemented it in this patch because it wasnt in the patch notes.

but i take what he says as ideas, not really what he was going to do, like he also mentioned velocious curse blowing up even though the target died, i have not seen this implemented. so yeah. he did seem adamant about making toggled pets more then just a toggle so i suppose this is step one for that.

Jahosefat

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

he also mentioned velocious curse blowing up even though the target died

Yeah that's in, I thought it was a weird bug. That's a cool addition. And I'm super happy the heal is hear to stay *cheer* Thank you for the info!

ToRelax

Jahosefat wrote: »

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

he also mentioned velocious curse blowing up even though the target died

Yeah that's in, I thought it was a weird bug. That's a cool addition. And I'm super happy the heal is hear to stay *cheer* Thank you for the info!

It was in the Tooltip. Bugs are rarely explaining themselves in the tooltip...

Vis

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Jujujitsu wrote: »

I do have to chuckle a little bit, as a Sorc, when I see our community say that a 35% heal is OP. Really?

EDIT: I am talking about the Clanfear unsummon here.

We have to cast it TWICE. Which with server lag, especially in PvP, makes it a button smash and unreliable. Then I go look at the DK skill Green Dragon Blood ... Heals for 33% missing health, increases health recovery by 40% and stamina recovery by 27% for 20 seconds!

Ok, with passives the cost may eventually be negligible or nothing. We still have to cast it TWICE and hope that it fires. If this is too OP ... fine. Just give us Green Dragon Blood but make it regen magicka and call it Mage's Blood, or Demon Blood, or Elemental Blood.

I think the response from our community, the thirst for any kind of positive change, is indicative to the quality of our current state.

@Gil.Galad Thank you for this thread and your ability to keep it calm and controlled.

And we also have to remember, there is a cooldown on pets. To prevent volatile familiar spam, they have implemented a cooldown to the familiar and morphs. So it takes 1 seconds or so, until the clannfear appears.

But wouldn't they have announced such a big and cool change with the patchnotes ? They just implement a cool heal to Sorc and don't mention it ^^ that's why I think, it is a bug and we shouldn't fall in love with it.

had a meeting with eric wrobel, he said he was adding it in so its not a bug, though i didnt think they implemented it in this patch because it wasnt in the patch notes.

but i take what he says as ideas, not really what he was going to do, like he also mentioned velocious curse blowing up even though the target died, i have not seen this implemented. so yeah. he did seem adamant about making toggled pets more then just a toggle so i suppose this is step one for that.

If it is added, it does add some nice utility to the toggle builds, and could be a partial answer to reflect spammers.

GreyRanger

I hope this does not turn into the answer to a Sorcerer self heal. I dislike the pet mechanic.

Devs, please make Dark Exchange a useful self heal.

Dracane

GreyRanger wrote: »

I hope this does not turn into the answer to a Sorcerer self heal. I dislike the pet mechanic.

Devs, please make Dark Exchange a useful self heal.

I just can't fall in love with the stamina cost of it. Stamina is too valueable for a mage, we can't allow to sacrifise it.
Dark Exchange is a very fair trade. Because the restored value/cost depends on your ressource pool. This can also be bad though.

If Dark deal wouldn't cost over 6000 Magicka a seconds, it would be a cool self heal and would also compensate our biggest weakness: Stamina. But as it stands now, Dark Exchange is just a self kill.

Digiman

Dracane wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

I hope this does not turn into the answer to a Sorcerer self heal. I dislike the pet mechanic.

Devs, please make Dark Exchange a useful self heal.

I just can't fall in love with the stamina cost of it. Stamina is too valueable for a mage, we can't allow to sacrifise it.
Dark Exchange is a very fair trade. Because the restored value/cost depends on your ressource pool. This can also be bad though.

If Dark deal wouldn't cost over 6000 Magicka a seconds, it would be a cool self heal and would also compensate our biggest weakness: Stamina. But as it stands now, Dark Exchange is just a self kill.

I actually disagree, being a full magicka sorcerer I only find stamina useful for breaking out and dodging. Because of this my stamina bar is actually usually full. The change to dark exchange to also stop during channeling by pressing the button again is also very nice.

However I would say it is still a poor substitute for self healing, we need an actually way to heal through damage and the CD idea for Surge just isn't working.

We aren't wearing plate and there is no stamina morph for streak so I really doubt that there would be much of difference from the healing we would get from 40% of the damage if I attacks critically hit.

It wasn't OP then and it won't be OP now, especially when we have entropy is much better and provides better bonuses for using it.

ToRelax

Digiman wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

I hope this does not turn into the answer to a Sorcerer self heal. I dislike the pet mechanic.

Devs, please make Dark Exchange a useful self heal.

I just can't fall in love with the stamina cost of it. Stamina is too valueable for a mage, we can't allow to sacrifise it.
Dark Exchange is a very fair trade. Because the restored value/cost depends on your ressource pool. This can also be bad though.

If Dark deal wouldn't cost over 6000 Magicka a seconds, it would be a cool self heal and would also compensate our biggest weakness: Stamina. But as it stands now, Dark Exchange is just a self kill.

I actually disagree, being a full magicka sorcerer I only find stamina useful for breaking out and dodging. Because of this my stamina bar is actually usually full. The change to dark exchange to also stop during channeling by pressing the button again is also very nice.

However I would say it is still a poor substitute for self healing, we need an actually way to heal through damage and the CD idea for Surge just isn't working.

We aren't wearing plate and there is no stamina morph for streak so I really doubt that there would be much of difference from the healing we would get from 40% of the damage if I attacks critically hit.

It wasn't OP then and it won't be OP now, especially when we have entropy is much better and provides better bonuses for using it.

If my stamina bar is full I will block or dodge a bit more for some seconds, not Bolt Escape some times and use Dark Exchange

The thing is that if you are not running away from a fight, you willbe able to build up your other resources again just by using dodging and blocking more. If you channel Dark Exchange, you make yourself an easy target while letting the enemy regenerate as well, as you can not do anything else during that period.
Really, if your stamina bar is mostly full, it's probably the enemies fighting bad, that just shouldn't be the assumption if you are trying to balance things (of course it seems to be quite often in this game, see DK nerfs, Surge nerf, Streak nerfs, NB nerfs, AoE caps...).

GreyRanger

Just in case you hadn't noticed DK's just got a 30% heal bonus tied to one of their abilities, rounding them out so they have something from class to offer to all 3 major team roles. It is also tied to a very nice team shield, great synergy. I don't begrudge them getting more balance to play all 3 major team roles, what I can't figure is why the devs have been unwilling to balance Srocs to all 3 roles.

Seraphyel

The healing buff is there for months now. Stop crying about it, if you wanted to brag about it you should have done it when the buff made it's way into the game.

Jujujitsu

@Gil.Galad I appreciate all the hard work that you have put into this but I don't agree with you on the idea that the unsummon heal is too powerful ... and here is why...

I personally do not use pets and probably never will. They annoy me. So in order for me to get that heal I will have to hit the button twice. I am not the best player, so when things get tough I need to count on that instant heal. With server lag and my old fingers this may not always work as I intend. So my heal is questionable. Therefor I should get a benefit for having a two button heal, hence reduced cost. If CP makes that free or even refunds some magicka I think that is to make up for a class heal that requires two button presses.

Again, If we as a community think that a two button heal is op, just give me one of the other class' self heals and rename it.

We, as sorc's, have some unique restrictions put on us. Restrictions that the other classes do not have. Timers on our heal (surge), increased cost on reuse of spells (streak), two button self heal (clanfear). This is what bothers me most and I think these are items that make our community feel that ZoS is singling our class out. Just my opinions. =D

Dracane

Jujujitsu wrote: »

@Gil.Galad I appreciate all the hard work that you have put into this but I don't agree with you on the idea that the unsummon heal is too powerful ... and here is why...

I personally do not use pets and probably never will. They annoy me. So in order for me to get that heal I will have to hit the button twice. I am not the best player, so when things get tough I need to count on that instant heal. With server lag and my old fingers this may not always work as I intend. So my heal is questionable. Therefor I should get a benefit for having a two button heal, hence reduced cost. If CP makes that free or even refunds some magicka I think that is to make up for a class heal that requires two button presses.

Again, If we as a community think that a two button heal is op, just give me one of the other class' self heals and rename it.

We, as sorc's, have some unique restrictions put on us. Restrictions that the other classes do not have. Timers on our heal (surge), increased cost on reuse of spells (streak), two button self heal (clanfear). This is what bothers me most and I think these are items that make our community feel that ZoS is singling our class out. Just my opinions. =D

I agree. The clannfear heal is nowhere near being overpowered or something and it's so restricted, compared to other heals.

halfbadger

Dracane wrote: »

I agree. The clannfear heal is nowhere near being overpowered or something and it's so restricted, compared to other heals.

You can use the heal while you're cced, it heals for a ridiculous amount and you can gain mana from using it. That is clearly overpowered.

Snit

GreyRanger wrote: »

I hope this does not turn into the answer to a Sorcerer self heal. I dislike the pet mechanic.

I, too, dislike pet builds, but I will certainly make use of this. Put tiny triceratops on one bar only. Then, cast and immediately bar-switch. Perhaps put an absorb shield or other defensive ability in the same slot on the other bar.

ZOS_GinaBruno

GreyRanger wrote: »

I guess the hoped for feedback about where the Devs are going with Sorcerers per @ZOS_GinaBruno is not going to happen before the weekend.

Sorry about that guys. Eric did start reading through the thread, but just didn't have time to write something up yet. Don't want you all to think we were completely ignoring you, though.

Dracane

halfbadger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I agree. The clannfear heal is nowhere near being overpowered or something and it's so restricted, compared to other heals.

You can use the heal while you're cced, it heals for a ridiculous amount and you can gain mana from using it. That is clearly overpowered.

Aren't you the one, who used to troll the duell camps ?

ToRelax

halfbadger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I agree. The clannfear heal is nowhere near being overpowered or something and it's so restricted, compared to other heals.

You can use the heal while you're cced, it heals for a ridiculous amount and you can gain mana from using it. That is clearly overpowered.

It can not be spammed, it is cheap but does not regen resources if the heal is great and if you want it ready when you're CCed it needs 2 slots.

It's neither overpowered nor underpowered, I just don't understand why everyone seems to see only one side of it ^^.

Dracane

ToRelax wrote: »

halfbadger wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I agree. The clannfear heal is nowhere near being overpowered or something and it's so restricted, compared to other heals.

You can use the heal while you're cced, it heals for a ridiculous amount and you can gain mana from using it. That is clearly overpowered.

It can not be spammed, it is cheap but does not regen resources if the heal is great and if you want it ready when you're CCed it needs 2 slots.

It's neither overpowered nor underpowered, I just don't understand why everyone seems to see only one side of it ^^.

Other classes can heal much quicker and only need 1 slot for it, we basically sacrifise 2

Vis

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

I guess the hoped for feedback about where the Devs are going with Sorcerers per @ZOS_GinaBruno is not going to happen before the weekend.

Sorry about that guys. Eric did start reading through the thread, but just didn't have time to write something up yet. Don't want you all to think we were completely ignoring you, though.

@ZOS_GinaBruno your reassurances as of late have changed the entire tone of the conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to let us know.

Dracane

Vis wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

I guess the hoped for feedback about where the Devs are going with Sorcerers per @ZOS_GinaBruno is not going to happen before the weekend.

Sorry about that guys. Eric did start reading through the thread, but just didn't have time to write something up yet. Don't want you all to think we were completely ignoring you, though.

@ZOS_GinaBruno your reassurances as of late have changed the entire tone of the conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to let us know.

Yes it's good to know, we are not alone

Erock25

Jujujitsu wrote: »

I do have to chuckle a little bit, as a Sorc, when I see our community say that a 35% heal is OP. Really?

EDIT: I am talking about the Clanfear unsummon here.

We have to cast it TWICE. Which with server lag, especially in PvP, makes it a button smash and unreliable. Then I go look at the DK skill Green Dragon Blood ... Heals for 33% missing health, increases health recovery by 40% and stamina recovery by 27% for 20 seconds!

Ok, with passives the cost may eventually be negligible or nothing. We still have to cast it TWICE and hope that it fires. If this is too OP ... fine. Just give us Green Dragon Blood but make it regen magicka and call it Mage's Blood, or Demon Blood, or Elemental Blood.

I think the response from our community, the thirst for any kind of positive change, is indicative to the quality of our current state.

@Gil.Galad Thank you for this thread and your ability to keep it calm and controlled.

It isn't actually twice that you have to cast it though. In fact for the first heal, assuming you have it summoned already, it is in fact a zero cast time heal. So zero cast time, no cost, 35% HP (a lot different than 33% MISSING HP)

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

I guess the hoped for feedback about where the Devs are going with Sorcerers per @ZOS_GinaBruno is not going to happen before the weekend.

Sorry about that guys. Eric did start reading through the thread, but just didn't have time to write something up yet. Don't want you all to think we were completely ignoring you, though.

Please poke Eric with a giant stick that has the words Sorcerer and Stamina on them please. We got hosed when it comes to stamina morphs/passives.

madangrypally

Sadly I find the ZoS post to mean that the patch today will have nothing in it for Sorcerers or yet another nerf. This way they can say that they posted that they have just now started reading these threads and will take it into account for future updates. Likely after it goes live and once all the normal players begin screaming of the bugs/exploits it will take months before they have the time to spend on sorcerers.

Seraphyel

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

I guess the hoped for feedback about where the Devs are going with Sorcerers per @ZOS_GinaBruno is not going to happen before the weekend.

Sorry about that guys. Eric did start reading through the thread, but just didn't have time to write something up yet. Don't want you all to think we were completely ignoring you, though.

So it's quite unlikely that we will see actual Sorc adjustements before 1.6 goes live?

Snit

Dracane wrote: »

Other classes can heal much quicker and only need 1 slot for it, we basically sacrifise 2

There are a couple of ways to use it. Certainly, you can use two slots, ensuring the pet is always up. You then have a nice heal and mana restore available anytime, much as DK's have a heal and stamina restore. We do pay an extra slot in this case, and there is always the chance that our pet is killed before we need healing. Pets also present other issues in some group content.

Alternately, just put the pet in one slot on one bar. That makes it more like a traditional heal. You gain a slot back, but now you will have a slight delay before the heal, as you'll need two GCD's. So, a smart sorc might recast his shield first, then summon/unsummon the pet. It's a bit wierd, but it will work.

Jujujitsu

@Erock25

It isn't actually twice that you have to cast it though. In fact for the first heal, assuming you have it summoned already, it is in fact a zero cast time heal. So zero cast time, no cost, 35% HP (a lot different than 33% MISSING HP)

I understand what you mean, that if a sorc is using a pet... then it is a one button push. I am not a pet using sorc. I don't like that play style and I don't like pets constantly getting in my way when I am trying to do things. So for me, and many other sorcs, .... this actually will be a two button heal.

I would much prefer a one button instant heal.

EDIT: I also just thought of something else that I do not like about this mechanic. For both PvP and PvE situations. I have this pet up to use as my "go to heal" and it is off doing whatever the hell it likes to do. I am not used to pet management, because I don't like them. So my pet dies and a second later I get agro from a player or mob. I didn't notice my pet died. I hit my "one button heal". It spawns my pet .... I just died. No thank you.

Reykice

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

I guess the hoped for feedback about where the Devs are going with Sorcerers per @ZOS_GinaBruno is not going to happen before the weekend.

Sorry about that guys. Eric did start reading through the thread, but just didn't have time to write something up yet. Don't want you all to think we were completely ignoring you, though.

Is he planning to write something?

Erock25

Seraphyel wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

GreyRanger wrote: »

I guess the hoped for feedback about where the Devs are going with Sorcerers per @ZOS_GinaBruno is not going to happen before the weekend.

Sorry about that guys. Eric did start reading through the thread, but just didn't have time to write something up yet. Don't want you all to think we were completely ignoring you, though.

So it's quite unlikely that we will see actual Sorc adjustements before 1.6 goes live?

That is what I got from that statement as well. I thought 1.6.4 WAS the sorc patch haha.

Jujujitsu wrote: »

@Erock25

It isn't actually twice that you have to cast it though. In fact for the first heal, assuming you have it summoned already, it is in fact a zero cast time heal. So zero cast time, no cost, 35% HP (a lot different than 33% MISSING HP)

I understand what you mean, that if a sorc is using a pet... then it is a one button push. I am not a pet using sorc. I don't like that play style and I don't like pets constantly getting in my way when I am trying to do things. So for me, and many other sorcs, .... this actually will be a two button heal.

I would much prefer a one button instant heal.

I must have had that part in my previous post that you responded to as an auto saved draft from earlier, because I did not mean to post it. It definitely is 2 buttons but at least 1 of the button pushes doesn't occupy a a global cool down.