1.6.5 Sorcerer detailed balance feedback

Reykice

sput4ueb17_ESO wrote: »

[quote="Gil.Galad;

Replace deadric mines
Insert an ability like a dark magic ball, maybe a fire ball (dark fire ball) that
- has 28m range
- is instant castable
- deals a bit more dmg than force shock
- maybe a little aoe dmg like the curse when its a fire ball
Morphs:
- 1 morph that reduces the targets spellresistance (minor debuff)
- 1 morph that restores magicka over time to the group like the NB are able to heal the group a bit

An ability like this would solve several sorc problems: They could have an own "filler" for some rotations and dont rely on the destro staff/force shock anymore. We could provide some unique support to the group (magicka recovery, a debuff no one else provides).

You are the developers. Be creative and give us something we can play with and support the group. Give raidgroups a reason to take some sorcs with them.

++
very good post - well placed all the problems that a sorcerer is facing . Especially the need of 1 skill as a filler and instant cast.

Crossing hands here that Zos will get the picture of what is happening with the Sorcerer.[/quote]

This.... would solve a lot of problems. Daedric or maybe other sorc spells nobody uses, either way it would be very nice and would help the dps issue AND the whole "we have no instant spell worth using to proc Crystal Fragments".

SanderBuraas

I would also like more Sorcerer skills to be morphable for stamina builds. In comparison to the other classes, Sorcerer is the one least compatible with a stamina build in terms of usable skills.

There are so many skills in the Sorcerer skill lines I never use, and I just wish that all the skills were viable in their own way so we could have more possible combinations as a Sorcerer.

Iselin

The OP definitely gets style points for saying what we have been saying about sorcerers in countless posts in a way that the moderators find useful to single out in order to reinforce in a positive way, how we should communicate...

But I would find it extremely hard to believe that they haven't heard all of these feedback already may times in the past 3 weeks, looked at them and rejected them for their own mysterious reasons.

Let's look at just one of them, the cooldown on Surge. The only reason for introducing this CD in 1.6 that makes any sort of sense to me was that they were concerned that with the removal of AOE caps, the skill would heal too much when used in those choke point situations in Cyrodiil when players zerg through a wall breach...

...except that rationale totally falls apart when you consider that another class that has a whole healing skill line, has an AOE skill that is not even part of the heal line, that not only heals based on hitting an unlimited number of foes but it's an all in-one damage + heal ability. The only difference is that puncturing sweep is a melee range ability and Surge can apply to ranged AOE.

I just don't think that's a good enough reason to do something as drastic as giving one a CD and not the other one when they could just as easily have made the heal / damage return slightly lower for surge compared to puncturing sweep to account for the increased danger of having to be in melee range.

But putting any kind of CD on one of those abilities and not the other one just makes no sense as a reaction to removing the AOE cap...

And this is without even going into the argument that they're making a wholesale change to one of our core abiliities to account for a situation that takes up just a tiny portion of all game play time. Even if you play in Cyrodiil 100% of the time, those choke point moments are rare in the grand scheme of things.

Just my 2¢

pppontus

I think I love you OP. I might not agree with everything you say but THIS is how feedback is written!

I think you are slightly underestimating Sorcs a bit, I can't get close to my Sorc DPS with any other class and a ranged weapon, and for Trials you will almost always need a few people at range.

In my opinion I would actually rather see a buff to Deadric Mines for some melee type damage, imo one of the things Sorcs lack is a Magicka Melee type build such as the ones DKs have. I would personally love to be able to make that trade of ranged safety for more DPS.

Anyway, I would like to see them do something about Negate, I don't want it back the way it was (it makes pvp a negate war) but it's a little too weak for an ultimate at the moment. Maybe add some other more sought after buffs to it and give some resources back to allies in it etc.

I can't agree with your survivability though, I am finding it easy enough to survive with Entropy, Empowered Ward and some AOE (Impulse+Liquid Lightning), refresh ward when needed and possibly throw on a Mutagen. It's just a little more than one button

Encase & Dark Exchange I like your suggestion.

BA, as you said, I like the passive but it needs a little more of something to make it worth slotting.

This is however all imo QOL improvements, all classes have skills that are completely useless in many situations, but yeah. They should be done at some point. I just don't agree that Sorcs are in such a bad place, I think they definitely earn their place in Trials now and as a raid leader I wouldn't hesitate at all to take Sorcs, not for a second.

Vis

pppontus wrote: »

In my opinion I would actually rather see a buff to Deadric Mines for some melee type damage, imo one of the things Sorcs lack is a Magicka Melee type build such as the ones DKs have. .

One of the few things you've said I could get behind.

The issue for me is when, as a magicka sorc, I see the reflect spam begin. Once I see reflects are up, I am left feeling very weak.

I wish some of the useless skills were changed so that when we see the flappy flappy wings we can get into melee range and use a different source of dps.

Nihil

Instead of turning our daedric protection into our healing buff, why not add it into surge instead? Power surge could have the minor mending (with a good duration) added to it, this would give sorcs better sustain with the restoration staff, give DK's better burst (with restoration staff), NB's would have added HoT's with their skills and Templars are well templars... It would add a meaning to the skill beyond pure dps. Entropy is a hard one to compete with as it is pretty focused around dps, so to keep with adding variety I think adding the healing would go a long way to help give us a place in the healing area. I have no idea how to make crit surge more appealing atm.

Daedric protection, I believe, was meant to help with our heals, surge + daedric protection + blood magic were suppose to allow for a more passive regen then other classes. It requires a lot less upkeep, but also doesn't allow us the instant heal that can be very detrimental at times (and thus why we get a shield that scales with our magicka). In current pvp this is semi useless for light armor as light armor is squishy, this could be beneficial if the TTK was not to low tho. If they were to change it I think (personal opinion) it should stick with supporting tanks, give us a increase to healing receive allowing us to heal up faster, and giving synergy to the restoration staff (and maybe surge if that would be allowed to work with it). This would also set us apart from DK's who have a very similar passive but based on abilities slotted.

I am actually liking the changes to expert mage. In comparison to the night blades passive that increase crit rate we have a much more flexable passive (as it doesn't require just one skill line), and it gives similar dps gains, but with a stricter focus (NB's get crit rate in both areas, we get just spell damage). If it wasn't for Templars balance warrior I would be very happy with the passive, but the balance warrior is just a really strong passive in comparison... From a stamina sorc perspective I would of liked it to have weapon damage added to it too, as we are lacking in that area a bit. I personally am slowly going away from the mage guild skills.

As I said in another thread Daedric mines I think just need a slight reworking of the immunity. Change it to dealing a % damage that the mine would normally deal, so we can't produce ridiculous dps, but allow us to still retain some if the boss blows them up fast. With this patch they seem to be pushing increased damage when in melee range, and for us this is more of our melee range skill, it has potential, but currently is putting it just above a range instant cast hit for over double the cost (compared to CS).

I think for range dps we are doing well (hear reports of 8-9 k that other classes can do, but I haven't seen the numbers nor if they have party buffs, I can get 8-9k dps solo with only self buffs (70 cp) and no ultimate and template character 30 second fight tho, so not 100 % accurate). We are lacking in close combat dps tho, and if that is suppose to be stronger, we will be less needed for fights that don't need range dps.

Nihil

Vis wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

In my opinion I would actually rather see a buff to Deadric Mines for some melee type damage, imo one of the things Sorcs lack is a Magicka Melee type build such as the ones DKs have. .

One of the few things you've said I could get behind.

The issue for me is when, as a magicka sorc, I see the reflect spam begin. Once I see reflects are up, I am left feeling very weak.

I wish some of the useless skills were changed so that when we see the flappy flappy wings we can get into melee range and use a different source of dps.

This I also agree with, it would be nice to have skills that weren't so easily reflected, and absorbed. I wouldn't mind more melee range skills.

pppontus wrote: »

Anyway, I would like to see them do something about Negate, I don't want it back the way it was (it makes pvp a negate war) but it's a little too weak for an ultimate at the moment. Maybe add some other more sought after buffs to it and give some resources back to allies in it etc.

no one has minor force yet, slight increase to crit damage while in the negate?

Ramasee

I will add my two cents into this discussion because it looks to be a better thread than most of the sorcerer threads.

First off, I try to see the sorcerer from every point of view. Tanking, healing, stamina dps, magicka dps.

Daedric Summoning
This passives is reasonable, as it is meant to give us health recovery along the lines of other classes for tanking purposes. We could not reasonably ask for this passive to change without changing health recovery passives/bonuses for other classes, This passive provides a bonus to an underplayed style of sorcerer. (Regardless of my own opinion on the usefulness of health recovery)

Summon Twilight Matriarch
To go along with the OP's post and to address the lack of healing benefits to healer sorcs, remove the % health based activated self heal from this morph of the pet. Instead have the pet provide minor or major mending (whichever is better for overall balance) to the caster while she is active.

Negate Magic
--Suppression Field - I agree with the OP that the ability maybe better served as a major buff over a minor buff.
--Absorption Field - The major buffs that are applied, not everyone will always have. These are fine, but it may need extra oomph to make it a viable morph choice over the other, specially if it gets buffed. Maybe something as simple as restoring a % of the sorc's health upon casting to go with the original design of this morph?

Dark Exchange
I agree that this ability would be better served as a toggle that still allows you to cast. To make it better balanced for this: Reduce the amount of health that it gives. Maybe also have it apply major debuffs such as maim, breach, and fracture while active.

Surge
Lets completely redesign how this ability functions while continuing to keep its intent.
--Surge unmorphed - When slotted, this ability gains a charge whenever you critically strike with an ability. This can only happen once every second (or whatever cooldown balances it well), maximum of X charges (20?). When used, heals the player for Y * magicka modifier * charge #, consumes all charges.
--Critical Surge (Should get a new name) - Now costs stamina and uses a stamina modifier. Add: when ability is used, user gains Major Brutality for Z seconds. Z = # of charges.
--Power Surge - Add: when ability is used, user gains Major Sorcery for Z seconds. Z = # of charges.
This way it still gives the benefit, has a different style of use over other abilities that give similar benefits, and reduces the RNG of the healing effect. Giving more control over its use to the sorcerer, allowing for more options to be used in addition to this skill.

Encase
That is a really good idea OP, and goes with the more ranged nature of the Sorc's abilities. It would probably need to have its cost bumped back up to make it more balanced. Aka removed the 15% cost reduction it received.

Pets in General
The fact that they are toggles is acceptable. I do agree that they should not be the only method of doing excellent damage as a sorcerer. Also love them finally getting some love.

Bound Armor and Lightning Form
Give bound armor the major resolve (and Bound Aegis consequently major ward) given that it is a toggle. Reduce lightning form's down to minor. Slightly increase the damage and maybe adjust the cost.
Although I am not sure if this is needed, given that 5% magicka/stamina increase to bound armor. Just tossing out the idea really.

Magicka Filler
Trapping webs' synergy can now be used against targets immune to the snare. So this ability can make an acceptable magicka filler now. Don't forget about it non-destruction staff sorcs!

Ezareth

I just don't understand how so many people think Dark Exchange is bad in PvP. I've used it as part of my main build in PvP for ages. It basically allows you to convert excess stamina into magicka at an extremely favorable rate. In 1.6 stamina is at a premium and it is less often that you'll be able to afford converting it into magicka, but with the nerfs to cost reduction I wouldn't write it off just yet.

ZOS_GinaBruno

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we have all been keeping a close watch on Sorcerer feedback.

We hope to have some answers for you before the weekend - we haven't forgotten!

Iselin

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I just don't understand how so many people think Dark Exchange is bad in PvP. I've used it as part of my main build in PvP for ages. It basically allows you to convert excess stamina into magicka at an extremely favorable rate. In 1.6 stamina is at a premium and it is less often that you'll be able to afford converting it into magicka, but with the nerfs to cost reduction I wouldn't write it off just yet.

It's just too situational -only really useful when not taking damage.

Once upon a time, before they removed the damage protection while you channeled it and replaced it with the ability to move, it was much more useful in many more cases.

I'd be happy with just a return of the damage protection buff.

Cogo

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we have all been keeping a close watch on Sorcerer feedback.

We hope to have some answers for you before the weekend - we haven't forgotten!

Could you make it so the Synergy from the Sorcerer Ultimate that summons the big pet is either better or breakable with escape. You have to move to break it.

The Synergy per say isn't bad, but something I do not need to channel a single target.

It stops me from doing anything. If I do not press the synergy, I can not activate other synergies that comes after it.

Jahosefat

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I just don't understand how so many people think Dark Exchange is bad in PvP. I've used it as part of my main build in PvP for ages. It basically allows you to convert excess stamina into magicka at an extremely favorable rate. In 1.6 stamina is at a premium and it is less often that you'll be able to afford converting it into magicka, but with the nerfs to cost reduction I wouldn't write it off just yet.

This is because it requires you to "break from the pack" to pull off; ball of lightning does not stop venom arrow so you will always be vulnerable to that. It can work great when kiting or if a convenient line-of-sight obstacle is nearby, but casting this near a good group is just asking to be interrupted with crushing shock/venom arrow. The channel is long and elevates your character into a distinctive pose which is easy to pick out from long distances. So it is not a heal that can be used well when you are taking damage or are within crushing shock/venom arrow range of a group. It is also a stam dump, which leaves you in a vulnerable position after casting it (if you let it go the full duration). I've run crushing shock in my build close to 100% of the time since beta, and it makes me smile to see a sorc try to start getting a dark exchange off. If they are not behind a line-of-sight obstacle this is about as close to a free kill as you get. I'll usually let it tick on them twice before I stun so they are more likely to not have enough stamina to break the stun; it works very well. It is a highly situational heal at best; some see it as the worst self heal in the game because it costs stam which is arguably the most important resource after health in PVP. I think it has its place and some people use it well but I tend to stay away from things that open me up to interrupts.

stephkisten_ESO

Expert Mage change in 1.6.3 screws stamina sorcs. As a stamina user i dont need spell damage but need lightning spell cost reduction. I run out of mana after using crit surge and lightning form on the PTS.

Laerwen

Another Streak Bug/Ninja Nerf (New):

On the live server you can streak in any direction your reticle (camera) is facing. On PTS you can ONLY streak in the direction your character is facing. It is very frustrating that this ability is getting nerfed into oblivion. It is very important for the usefulness of the skill to be able to streak in the direction your camera is facing! Please fix that!

Also just to bring it up again in hopes of finally getting an answer, Streak and Encase are no longer procing Crystal Fragments.

daemonios

Thank you Gil.Galad for a well thought-out and written post, and for quoting my post about the fact that Sorcerers are under-represented in trials groups. My greatest fear is that the situation won't be addressed adequately before 1.6.x goes live and Sorcerers will find themselves excluded from this part of the game.

Also thank you @ZOS_GinaBruno for your encouraging feedback. Hope you don't think all Sorcerers are whiners, these are some real, fact-based concerns here

SoulScream

Laerwen wrote: »

Another Streak Bug/Ninja Nerf (New):

On the live server you can streak in any direction your reticle (camera) is facing. On PTS you can ONLY streak in the direction your character is facing. It is very frustrating that this ability is getting nerfed into oblivion. It is very important for the usefulness of the skill to be able to streak in the direction your camera is facing! Please fix that!

There will be an add on for that! lol

Dagoth_Rac

Cogo wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we have all been keeping a close watch on Sorcerer feedback.

We hope to have some answers for you before the weekend - we haven't forgotten!

Could you make it so the Synergy from the Sorcerer Ultimate that summons the big pet is either better or breakable with escape. You have to move to break it.

The Synergy per say isn't bad, but something I do not need to channel a single target.

It stops me from doing anything. If I do not press the synergy, I can not activate other synergies that comes after it.

Is this on PTS? I thought they got rid of all channeled synergies in Update 6? If it is still channeled, that sounds like a bug. I know the taunt synergy ("Radiate") is now instant.

Vis

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we have all been keeping a close watch on Sorcerer feedback.

We hope to have some answers for you before the weekend - we haven't forgotten!

Awesome! I swear I always feel bad about asking you after I have asked. You're awesome Gina!

Holycannoli

stephkisten_ESO wrote: »

Expert Mage change in 1.6.3 screws stamina sorcs. As a stamina user i dont need spell damage but need lightning spell cost reduction. I run out of mana after using crit surge and lightning form on the PTS.

and streak. The expert mage change is nothing but a nerf to stamina sorcerers.

Erock25

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we have all been keeping a close watch on Sorcerer feedback.

We hope to have some answers for you before the weekend - we haven't forgotten!

@ZOS_GinaBruno I hope there is some stamina love coming. It is way out of whack how little stamina morphs and passives the sorc received.

indigoblades

stephkisten_ESO wrote: »

Expert Mage change in 1.6.3 screws stamina sorcs. As a stamina user i dont need spell damage but need lightning spell cost reduction. I run out of mana after using crit surge and lightning form on the PTS.

I think it screw'd high magika sorcs too. Mine got around a 1/2 % tooltip damage/sorc ability for a increase for a 11% cost increase on my storm calling abilities (my most used sorc tree)

Voltos

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we have all been keeping a close watch on Sorcerer feedback.

We hope to have some answers for you before the weekend - we haven't forgotten!

This is really inspiring. Thank you, @Gil.Galad, for taking the time to construct such a fantastic post and attract the attention of ZOS.

I have a couple of suggestions for the community to review:

Surge:

Charge your weapons with the power of lightning for 20 seconds. Light and Heavy attacks cause a surge of electrical energy against your target that arcs to the three nearest opponents within 10 meters. Damage is based on (X%) damage done. Critical strikes heal you for 50% of damage done.

(X%) damage is increased each level.

Power Surge -
Charge your weapons with the power of lightning for 20 seconds. Weapon attacks cause a surge of electrical energy against your target that arcs to the three nearest opponents within 10 meters. Damage is based on (%X) damage done. Critical strikes heal for 50% of damage done.

You now receive the Major Brutality buff, and your light attacks restore (X%) stamina.

Spell Surge -
Charge your weapons with the power of lightning for 20 seconds. Weapon attacks cause a surge of electrical energy against your target that arcs to the three nearest opponents within 10 meters. Damage is based on (%X) damage done. Critical strikes heal for 50% of damage done.

You now receive the Major Sorcery buff, and your light attacks restore (X%) magicka.


Lightning Splash:

Player/Enemy targeted
Increased Damage/Radius

Turn your target into a lightning rod, and the aoe damage would affect them and anyone within the radius. This would solve the mechanics issue in PVE, and PVP players would be able to either roll-doge or breakout of the effect. If your target breaks out of the effect, the damage continues to persist at the location where it was removed for the rest of the duration. Rename it -- Lightning Storm --


Sorry, this turned out longer than I had intended. Please be vocal if you support these ideas. I would really like @ZOS_GinaBruno‌ to pass these along to the Devs.

Thank you.

indigoblades

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I just don't understand how so many people think Dark Exchange is bad in PvP. I've used it as part of my main build in PvP for ages. It basically allows you to convert excess stamina into magicka at an extremely favorable rate. In 1.6 stamina is at a premium and it is less often that you'll be able to afford converting it into magicka, but with the nerfs to cost reduction I wouldn't write it off just yet.

Just me but it is just too slow to get back magicka.... id much prefer to hit a equilibrium morp once.... the lost health will be regenerated quickly and equilibrium neither slowed down my movement and it happened quickly. That said i tried equilibrium on PTS 1.6 and it just wasnt working... it was trading 1/3 my health for about 7% magika. So ill try to make Dark deal work, but that sure did seem slow and looked to me like it would only work in few situations in pvp.

But it you have found a way use it effectively in pvp tell me, i like to learn new stuff.

Rhian-Skybladeb16_ESO

Sorc 1.6

Did some testing with my guild mates in Fungal Grotto and some other instances...
I am using FTC to see how much DPS I can do.

Please also keep in mind that I refer to PvE and NOT PvP.
I also tried tried to work with the Sorc native spells/skills.

Race: Breton
Class: Sorc
Level: VR 14

Wearing

• 5 X Necropotence Set (Magicka Boni for Set & Pets)
• 2 X Torug's Pact - 2X 172 Spell dmg
• 2 X Pact Staves - 2 X 86 Spell dmg + 616 spell critical
• 2 X Pact Rings (2 X 64 Spell dmg + 86 Spell dmg + 616 spell critical)
• 1 X Aether Necklace + 64 Spell Necklace

Invested into following Champion Slots of what I thought will be beneficial for my Sorc & Spell Damage:
I assume that phyiscal dmg is "NOT" Spell/Magicka dmg... that's why I did not take Precise and the likes.

• Magician: 13
• Arcanist: 10
• Elfborn: 10
• Elemental Expert : 10
• Spell Erosion: 3
• Elemental Defender: 9
• Spell Shield: 10
• Resitant: 5

First try with pets and pets buffs: (I dunno if FTC can evaluate pet dmg, probably not I think...)

1st bar ->

• Daedric Prey
• Empowered Ward
• Restoring Twilight (dies too fast, even with ward)
• Unstable Familiar (also tried the Volatile Familiar - not much difference except that the morphed Scamp is more squishy)
• Inner Light
• Ultimate : Charged Storm Atronarch

2nd bar ->

• Degeneration
• Power Surge (for spell dmg)
• Restoring Twilight
• Unstable Familiar
• Inner Light
• Ultimate: Flawless Dawnbreaker when doing Daedra, otherwise Ice Comet

Result and Thoughts:

As you can see, I am putting the pet-ability to main use - so no more hot bars left for any real nukes that deal real dmg.

I decided to go for degeneration in the second because it casts faster and cheaper than the crystal fragments... crystal fragments require to proc an instant cast...

I honestly dunno how I feel about this Setup in group dungeons and raids. Especially about Raids where you can catch chain lightning (The Mage) and Sanctum with the Manticora and "The Serpent" who probably scrap them after the first stomp/magicka bomb.
Or the last boss in Fungal Grotto who creates black holes in the ground that swallow everything.

Or pets do not follow you when you get swallowed in a hole in Sanctum, or by the black hole in Fungal Grove. They stay on the boss until they die. Using daedric prey on the new target did not really help... so that leaves Sorc pretty helpless and useless at the same time if he/she cannot re-cast the pets quickly again.

Yes - this setup worked "Ok" in Fungus Grove - but I think it only worked because I was there with my guildies who I know and trust in their roles.
Though, I doubt that this really contributed anything of real value... that makes a Sorc a class no one wants to miss in their group.

Second test with "single target spells" in Fungal Grotto

• 4 X Aether Set (616 + 616 Spell Critical + 164 Spell dmg)
• 3 X Torug's Pact - 2X 172 Spell dmg
• 2 X Pact Staves - 2 X 86 Spell dmg + 616 spell critical
• 2 X Pact Rings (2 X 64 Spell dmg + 86 Spell dmg + 616 spell critical)
• 1 X Aether Necklace + 64 Spell Necklace

1st bar ->

• Crystal Fragments
• Degeneration (Crushing Shock is now worthless as dps spell)
• Boundless Storm (Resistance and Armor buff + Movement Speed - since light armor is now useless as protection)
• Power Surge
• Inner Light

Ultimate: Storm Atronarch

2nd bar ->

• Mage's Wrath -> Execute
• Elemental Ring -> AoE
• Boundless Storm (also replaced that one with Hunter of Evil if we faced a daedric or undead enemy)k
• Power Surge
• Inner Light

Ultimate: War Horn or Supression Field - depending on the Mob - since Flawless Dawnbreaker is now useless for me as a Spell-based Sorc.

• Result and Thoughts:

It worked - yet I noticed (if FTC can be believed on the Test-Server) that I do a great deal less dps than every other class in my group. Could as well have been replaced by another DPS-Templar.

I used Spell-Weaving + Crystal Fragments only when it is an instant cast.

When I use AOE dps like elemental ring, I get maybe above 10 K dmg
When I do single target dps on the boss or a single target and nothing else - I get maybe somewhat above 7 - 8K.

The Templar I had in my team usually did something around 17 K - 24 K dmg.
Even comparing our execute spells - the Templar out-damages the Sorc.

With exactly this Setup - without the Champion Points - I do now in 1.5 around 1,1K - 1,2K dmg (if FTC is not lying)

This should be at least around 11K - 12K now in 1.6. But even with Champion Points that improve damage, I do not get even close to that. So for me 1.6 appears like a huge step backwards for the Sorc.

Final thought about 1.6

Right now, it looks and feels to me, as PvEler, that the spell-based Sorc class has been heavily botched.

I do not see anything of true and real value this class has to contribute towards a PvE raids that require "huge amounts" of dmg output.

A Sorc cannot heal as good as a Templar - Templar has native healing spells, a Sorc doesn't.

A Sorc cannot deal as much damage as a DK, Nightblade or now with 1.6 a Templar who goes as DPS. The native sorc spells are much weaker than the native skills of the other classes

A Sorc cannot support a raid as good as a Templar, Nightblade and Tank-DK - because their only real native support spell - Negate/Supression Field has been nerfed. All the other native sorc buffs are "self" only... Nightblades have Veil of Blades, which is pretty handy in raids. DKs have Molten Weapons, Obsidian Shield and so on... Templars have their native healing spells and Ultimates like Solar Prison.

The Sorc can be replaced by any of the three classes and would not really be missed in any raid. Especially in raids and group dungeons that do not require Negate/Supression Field - and especially now that Negate has been nerfed.

And from what I have seen - the pets are nice for solo hunting and questing. But I do not see them as a real beneficial and "must have" for a raid. Because, a sorc has his spell bar full with pet spells and buffs... and that doesn't leave much room for anything else.

---

I assume , (well I got the impression), that the difficulty here lies in the balance between PvP and PvE.

If the Sorc would become a total and valuable "must have" equal to other classes in PvE - this class probably would become far too OP in PvP.

From what I heard and read - people already consider the Sorc as OP in PvP - especially combined with Vampire skills. Some PvP-Guilds talk already about going as dunmer sorc vampires and putting champ points into elemental resist...

---

The PvE game mechanics for raids and some group dungeon bosses require non-plus-ultra dps or at least some other non-plus-ultra skills. Especially when you want to do Hard-Mode. The Sorc, compared to the other classes in 1.6, cannot deliver that dps nor offer any other useful native skills no other class can offer.

So, the Sorc class still remains a compromise for PvE (High Level Content) which depends on the good will of friends or the guild, to be taken along.

I hope ZeniMax is going to offer a "class-change" in their crown shop. You keep your VR14 Level, Achievements and you just need to "skill" your new class skills. But everything else that is not class-skill remains as you leveled it.
That would at least compensate for the time and effort one had invested into the "wrong/broken/unbalanced" class.
And one still has to learn how to play that new class, while leveling the new skills. So it would not be the same as buying a "ready made account". It just saves you the "leveling" again...

Imho - the Sorc requires a total overhaul that makes this class a total equal to the other classes - without being OP either in PvP or PvE. Though, I doubt somehow that is going to happen.

ToRelax

Laerwen wrote: »

Another Streak Bug/Ninja Nerf (New):

On the live server you can streak in any direction your reticle (camera) is facing. On PTS you can ONLY streak in the direction your character is facing. It is very frustrating that this ability is getting nerfed into oblivion. It is very important for the usefulness of the skill to be able to streak in the direction your camera is facing! Please fix that!

Also just to bring it up again in hopes of finally getting an answer, Streak and Encase are no longer procing Crystal Fragments.

True but I thought it has to do with the new animation system.

It is annoying sometimes though, if it's intentional, please change it back, doesn't seem to make much sense.

PlagueMonk

This post will be Nightblade-centrc.

My intention is not to hijack this thread but since it appears someone at Zenimax is actually responding to and forwarding this, maybe, just maybe they will be paying attention to the other posts in this thread. So please forgive me if I piggyback a bit.

I just wanted to respond to some if the info presented in the OPs post.

Gil.Galad wrote: »

Situation in 1.5 compared to 1.6.3 concerning raid and dungeon groups

Situation in 1.5

Tank: Dragonknight (DK) > Templar (T) > Nightblade (NB) >= Sorcerer (S)
Healer: T >> S > NB >= DK
DPS: DK > NB > S > T

Does this look like "play what you want and play how you want"?
While DKs and Temps have at least one role where they are way better than other classes, NB and specially sorcs had no role where they are the best, but NBs are still able to deal 1.300 DPS while a sorc can hardly get up to 1.000-1.100 DPS. This is reflected in the trial leaderbords: The fastest teams dont even have one single sorc. The sorcs are completely underrepresented as shown in this thread: Magicka Sorcerers and end-game PvE

I would direct you to the fact that DK's are on top in two categories.....T W O. You would think that, of all the classes, the NB and Sorc would be top DPS (NB = melee and Sorc = ranged), but yet WHO is on top again? Oh that's right the DK. WTH is going on?

I also disagree that Temps are 3rd in DPS currently. I have seen Temps with 2 handers absolutely wreck the DPS meters.

And that NB DPS you are referring to is for stick wielding, skirt wearing NBs only. A NBs damage with actual NB abilities and weapons in medium armor (our supposed preferred armor type) is significantly lower.

What will change with 1.6?

Restoration staff abilities scale of spelldmg, the spelldmg buff is available for every class (Mages guild -> Entropy). Since the mage doesnt have healing abilites the expert mage passive wont give him a huge bonus while healing (example: you only do aoe heals with healing springs, you will need magelight, -> 8% more spelldmg -> about 4% more healing done). Compared to DKs or NBs who have some nice synergies while healing (syphoning abilities, DKs dmg shield) sorcs wont be the 2nd best healers anymore.

While NBs do have a few healing abilities, please don't group us with DKs because our "heals" come with a few strings attached.....

Leeching attacks - a 17% DPS hit on ALL attacks for that heal. And the heal is only 2% for each BASIC attack made, not all attacks.

Funnel health - Requires a target to heal and turns it into a HoT. So we can't just hit a button and insta heal like the DK or Temp.

Sap Essence - Probably the best but it got hit by the nerf bat in 1.6 (and again requires multiple targets to be effective)

So NB's really don't have good "self heal" either.

Compared to templars and nightblades with their defensive ultimates and support abilities there is no space for sorcs. Maybe for one with a twilight and any dark magic ability. But the dmg increase for the group DPS from the 3% crit will be equal to the loss of having one NB or DK dps less in group.

Wait, what "defensive"/support abilities do NBs have? You mean the VoB that got the nerf bat? (so one morph protects and one does damage, not both now) other than that we don't have much in the way of unique abilities that a Sorc can't also use.

SO NBs are just about as screwed as Sorc (but Sorc have more utility imho)

Really confounds me that NB's got nerfed in multiple areas (removed catalyst, killed VoB, killed the NB Hybrid, and the list continues) and apparently Sorc also got hit hard but YET, DKs and Temps got buffs overall. Whomever is "balancing" needs to be removed because they obviously have no idea what the hell they are doing.

PlagueMonk

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, we have all been keeping a close watch on Sorcerer feedback.

We hope to have some answers for you before the weekend - we haven't forgotten!

And again, not to deviate from the topic but.....you screwed NBs over in many areas also. I hope you are also keeping a close watch on that feedback.

Ezareth

Iselin wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I just don't understand how so many people think Dark Exchange is bad in PvP. I've used it as part of my main build in PvP for ages. It basically allows you to convert excess stamina into magicka at an extremely favorable rate. In 1.6 stamina is at a premium and it is less often that you'll be able to afford converting it into magicka, but with the nerfs to cost reduction I wouldn't write it off just yet.

It's just too situational -only really useful when not taking damage.

Once upon a time, before they removed the damage protection while you channeled it and replaced it with the ability to move, it was much more useful in many more cases.

I'd be happy with just a return of the damage protection buff.

I never used the damage protection version, I used the version that only used 12% of your stamina per "tick" which was incredibly good. As the most mobile class ( or used to be anyways) in the game, getting out of interrupt range in order to safely cast this was never an issue. I also often cast it just to "juke" a player into trying to bash/interrupt me.

indigoblades wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

I just don't understand how so many people think Dark Exchange is bad in PvP. I've used it as part of my main build in PvP for ages. It basically allows you to convert excess stamina into magicka at an extremely favorable rate. In 1.6 stamina is at a premium and it is less often that you'll be able to afford converting it into magicka, but with the nerfs to cost reduction I wouldn't write it off just yet.

Just me but it is just too slow to get back magicka.... id much prefer to hit a equilibrium morp once.... the lost health will be regenerated quickly and equilibrium neither slowed down my movement and it happened quickly. That said i tried equilibrium on PTS 1.6 and it just wasnt working... it was trading 1/3 my health for about 7% magika. So ill try to make Dark deal work, but that sure did seem slow and looked to me like it would only work in few situations in pvp.

But it you have found a way use it effectively in pvp tell me, i like to learn new stuff.

The concept I use it under is typically either when I'm being chased and thus need to maximize my magicka while not really using my stamina. I also (on live) artificially kept my stamina low to take advantage of the percentage based conversion rate. Basically my stamina cost was kept as low as possible while my stamina *regen* was the same. This way I could spend magick with abandon and never really concern myself with wasting it, especially since I maximized my magicka through cost reduction enchants and gearing.

Most of this is completely broken in PTS however and thus I'm not sure I can afford Dark Exchange any more due to generally running out of stamina far too quickly.

Laerwen

ToRelax wrote: »

Laerwen wrote: »

Another Streak Bug/Ninja Nerf (New):

On the live server you can streak in any direction your reticle (camera) is facing. On PTS you can ONLY streak in the direction your character is facing. It is very frustrating that this ability is getting nerfed into oblivion. It is very important for the usefulness of the skill to be able to streak in the direction your camera is facing! Please fix that!

Also just to bring it up again in hopes of finally getting an answer, Streak and Encase are no longer procing Crystal Fragments.

True but I thought it has to do with the new animation system.

It is annoying sometimes though, if it's intentional, please change it back, doesn't seem to make much sense.

I don't think it is. You will change directions if you use an ability or weapon attack but not if you use streak, which is bonkers.