Was biting jabs nerfed?

grizzbi

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

brisingr90 wrote: »

I cancelled my subs today, but I still love this game. I have 11 days left to play, so if you see my post Devs, that is the limit for me whether I re-subs or quit the game for good. Once again, I love this game, but your direction of killing MELEE DPS TEMPLAR is make me really unhappy. I dont want to use Destro Staff or Rest staff. That is just not my style.

Many people have posted their builds, tried to help people out, but the quick threats just keep rolling in.

Can you not see that its a smart idea to move away from a 1 button wonder. These things take time to get right. Scaling back BitJab so that more options become viable down the road sounds good to me.

I've never used the 1 button wonder because it was boring. And I use (almost) all my money on respec because I love to try many builds. But where have you seen that more options would become viable down the road? It could take 6 more months or even a year. As long as we don't even have an official word about it, it's speculation. ZOS don't seem to have class balance set as a priority so I won't hold my breath on that..

PayneTK

I see

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

Catch up the conversation, since the acknowledgement, the "nerf" will be a change to its resource cost.

There are two problems with that announcement:
1. nobody knows when the next patch will fix this, so as a melee Templar with no other alts you may be paying a month of subscription just to feel depressed by your skills
2. nobody knows how much they will be nerfing the resource cost (it may destroy it completely just like Shield Bash)

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

grizzbi wrote: »

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

brisingr90 wrote: »

I cancelled my subs today, but I still love this game. I have 11 days left to play, so if you see my post Devs, that is the limit for me whether I re-subs or quit the game for good. Once again, I love this game, but your direction of killing MELEE DPS TEMPLAR is make me really unhappy. I dont want to use Destro Staff or Rest staff. That is just not my style.

Many people have posted their builds, tried to help people out, but the quick threats just keep rolling in.

Can you not see that its a smart idea to move away from a 1 button wonder. These things take time to get right. Scaling back BitJab so that more options become viable down the road sounds good to me.

I've never used the 1 button wonder because it was boring. And I use (almost) all my money on respec because I love to try many builds. But where have you seen that more options would become viable down the road? It could take 6 more months or even a year. As long as we don't even have an official word about it, it's speculation. ZOS don't seem to have class balance set as a priority so I won't hold my breath on that..

Because I see parallel between what is happening now and what happened to ret paladins (wow).

Maybe I'm completely off base, wishful thinking, but based on my critical thinking, knowledge of the IT industry, this is probably what is happening.

Balance takes a long time, everyone always wants everything now, yesterday or tomorrow. Patience is a long lost virtue I can definitely say that. Which is why I suggest possibly that they start a "State of X Class" so it can give people an understanding of what is happening with the class/skill lines that they chose.

It would require redistribution of ZOS resources to allow the head developer cycles you be able to do that, but still, it would remove the speculation of whats happening with Templars.

People just jump to conclusions and sometimes things are said so often on the forums by people that it just becomes truth, when in fact, there is no truth behind it at all.

williamburr2001b14_ESO

Again and again and again, people offering non-Templar solutions, completely ridiculous builds that claim to be able to solo high-VR content but almost certainly can't once other people try them, and accusations of low skill rather than very messed up game balance. It would be nice if the jerks trolling Templar complaint threads would just disappear up their own butts.

What is it about other peoples' aggravation that causes certain horrible personalities to want to rub salt in wounds?

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

Ive offered solutions, I play a Vet 7 (almost 8) templar, I pve, pvp, dungeon (soon to raid if my work/hockey playoffs ease up).

Maybe I should start posting guides, streaming so others can learn.

PayneTK

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

What is it about other peoples' aggravation that causes certain horrible personalities to want to rub salt in wounds?

That's how jerks are. They act like this until they nerf their class and than say ....oh w8 ..i loved that build ..and other builds are not my playstyle. Should i still be paying subscription for this?

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

PayneTK wrote: »

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

What is it about other peoples' aggravation that causes certain horrible personalities to want to rub salt in wounds?

That's how jerks are. They act like this until they nerf their class and than say ....oh w8 ..i loved that build ..and other builds are not my playstyle. Should i still be paying subscription for this?

Jerks are on both sides. Refusing to adapt because you don't want to is also kind of jerk'ish.

Adapt or get left behind (I guess in these instances, don't play anymore). You only punish yourself for that attitude.

williamburr2001b14_ESO

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

PayneTK wrote: »

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

What is it about other peoples' aggravation that causes certain horrible personalities to want to rub salt in wounds?

That's how jerks are. They act like this until they nerf their class and than say ....oh w8 ..i loved that build ..and other builds are not my playstyle. Should i still be paying subscription for this?

Jerks are on both sides. Refusing to adapt because you don't want to is also kind of jerk'ish.

Adapt or get left behind (I guess in these instances, don't play anymore). You only punish yourself for that attitude.

Dude. This has been openly acknowledge by devs as a bad change. You have offered absolutely nothing constructive in this thread, and have handed out blame at every turn. This isn't people punishing themselves, this is them expressing frustration over bad balance, a lack of good options, and having been punished. There is 0 doubt that Templar is just incredibly behind in every way. A forum review or 10 minutes in Craglorn proves this beyond a shred of doubt.

So what compels you to still be here, adding further aggravation to an already aggravating situation? GO OUTSIDE.

PayneTK

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

Jerks are on both sides. Refusing to adapt because you don't want to is also kind of jerk'ish.

Adapt or get left behind (I guess in these instances, don't play anymore). You only punish yourself for that attitude.

You do realize that i'm paying to play a game. I don't care about competition, there is nothing to adapt to if i want to play a heavy armor sword and shield melee character. I don't want to join the winning side with a destruction staff and dress.

grizzbi

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

grizzbi wrote: »

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

brisingr90 wrote: »

I cancelled my subs today, but I still love this game. I have 11 days left to play, so if you see my post Devs, that is the limit for me whether I re-subs or quit the game for good. Once again, I love this game, but your direction of killing MELEE DPS TEMPLAR is make me really unhappy. I dont want to use Destro Staff or Rest staff. That is just not my style.

Many people have posted their builds, tried to help people out, but the quick threats just keep rolling in.

Can you not see that its a smart idea to move away from a 1 button wonder. These things take time to get right. Scaling back BitJab so that more options become viable down the road sounds good to me.

I've never used the 1 button wonder because it was boring. And I use (almost) all my money on respec because I love to try many builds. But where have you seen that more options would become viable down the road? It could take 6 more months or even a year. As long as we don't even have an official word about it, it's speculation. ZOS don't seem to have class balance set as a priority so I won't hold my breath on that..

Because I see parallel between what is happening now and what happened to ret paladins (wow).

Maybe I'm completely off base, wishful thinking, but based on my critical thinking, knowledge of the IT industry, this is probably what is happening.

Balance takes a long time, everyone always wants everything now, yesterday or tomorrow. Patience is a long lost virtue I can definitely say that. Which is why I suggest possibly that they start a "State of X Class" so it can give people an understanding of what is happening with the class/skill lines that they chose.

It would require redistribution of ZOS resources to allow the head developer cycles you be able to do that, but still, it would remove the speculation of whats happening with Templars.

People just jump to conclusions and sometimes things are said so often on the forums by people that it just becomes truth, when in fact, there is no truth behind it at all.

You're right. That's what usually happen in most mmo. But in TESO they have chosen to be quite "different":
- Attention focused on monthly content instead of regular class balancing.
- No cooldown system with the risk to make the on-going balancing process more difficult to handle.
- Many common skills available to anyone regardless of his class.
- Everyone is hybrid: no pure magicka/stamina build ( well sort of^^)

In fact, they seem to want to get rid off the "state of X class" system.

And this part of Paul Sage interview in IGN:

"Finally, Sage also addressed concerns that there aren't enough healing or tanking roles available in the game, which leads to longer queues in the looking for group tool. He explained the recently-revealed spellcrafting feature should help with that, while new weapon skills (but not new weapons) are also in the pipeline to alleviate the problem."

They are not focusing on the current game state, balancing class. They prefer to add more tools so that anyone will be able to use generic skills like Volcanic rune to be able to compensate for their class weakness or inabilities.

That way, they will please the crowd AND add new content (more returning players).

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea to have more skills available to me. But I still think that as long as there are classes in this game they need to be balanced. So that new content will be balanced for all. And no one will be forced to use a limited pool of ability to become (a) competitive (clone) and be accepted in group.

luther_revan

I know that I'm not a dev, but I just dont see the point to put a global cool down after a skill in a game like this one (I'll say the same for any class). I still think that this was done to force us accepting some cost nerf (which will come "on the next patch" or maybe just after the new month sub since there were some patches since 1.1). I also can't understand how this has not been tested before release. Great, they agreed that its broken ok, next time just use the skill you changed a few times in veteran ranks if possible, to not look like amateurs or worse, dishonest.
Dont make me wrong, I still enjoin the game but I've difficulties in staying silent seeing such behaviour/nonsense choices. I am not confortable with rewarding such things with paying a sub, so I just can hope that it was a one time mistake and to be wrong about things I said .
That said lets go back to questing.
Edit: misspellings

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

PayneTK wrote: »

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

What is it about other peoples' aggravation that causes certain horrible personalities to want to rub salt in wounds?

That's how jerks are. They act like this until they nerf their class and than say ....oh w8 ..i loved that build ..and other builds are not my playstyle. Should i still be paying subscription for this?

Jerks are on both sides. Refusing to adapt because you don't want to is also kind of jerk'ish.

Adapt or get left behind (I guess in these instances, don't play anymore). You only punish yourself for that attitude.

Dude. This has been openly acknowledge by devs as a bad change. You have offered absolutely nothing constructive in this thread, and have handed out blame at every turn. This isn't people punishing themselves, this is them expressing frustration over bad balance, a lack of good options, and having been punished. There is 0 doubt that Templar is just incredibly behind in every way. A forum review or 10 minutes in Craglorn proves this beyond a shred of doubt.

So what compels you to still be here, adding further aggravation to an already aggravating situation? GO OUTSIDE.

I was just outside at lunctime, I'm back inside now. Can't handle a discussion where someone voices an opinion other then yours. Face it biting jabs is getting changed. Deal with it as others have. I have offered tons of advice for people dealing with the implications of the change (in its current form).

I even go as far as giving you my current bar and how it works, knowing full well it works, and its dismissed as "too much work" to put it simple.

Yep dev's acknowledged that the CD wasn't viable, they indicated they'd look at reducing its effective vs the cost. People still rage on that its the templars only good ability. Maybe its not me who needs the fresh air?

I will step away from these threads because people don't care to improve themselves, they just want their old crap back and wont stop till they get it, so be it, I'll reap the benefits of being stronger anyways. Let's never have discussions on how this change could potentially benefit templars. Just keep focusing on the negative, cry for your changes, and anytime someone disagrees with you, tell em to get lost. Go you.

williamburr2001b14_ESO

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

PayneTK wrote: »

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

What is it about other peoples' aggravation that causes certain horrible personalities to want to rub salt in wounds?

That's how jerks are. They act like this until they nerf their class and than say ....oh w8 ..i loved that build ..and other builds are not my playstyle. Should i still be paying subscription for this?

Jerks are on both sides. Refusing to adapt because you don't want to is also kind of jerk'ish.

Adapt or get left behind (I guess in these instances, don't play anymore). You only punish yourself for that attitude.

Dude. This has been openly acknowledge by devs as a bad change. You have offered absolutely nothing constructive in this thread, and have handed out blame at every turn. This isn't people punishing themselves, this is them expressing frustration over bad balance, a lack of good options, and having been punished. There is 0 doubt that Templar is just incredibly behind in every way. A forum review or 10 minutes in Craglorn proves this beyond a shred of doubt.

So what compels you to still be here, adding further aggravation to an already aggravating situation? GO OUTSIDE.

I was just outside at lunctime, I'm back inside now. Can't handle a discussion where someone voices an opinion other then yours. Face it biting jabs is getting changed. Deal with it as others have. I have offered tons of advice for people dealing with the implications of the change (in its current form).

I even go as far as giving you my current bar and how it works, knowing full well it works, and its dismissed as "too much work" to put it simple.

Yep dev's acknowledged that the CD wasn't viable, they indicated they'd look at reducing its effective vs the cost. People still rage on that its the templars only good ability. Maybe its not me who needs the fresh air?

I will step away from these threads because people don't care to improve themselves, they just want their old crap back and wont stop till they get it, so be it, I'll reap the benefits of being stronger anyways. Let's never have discussions on how this change could potentially benefit templars. Just keep focusing on the negative, cry for your changes, and anytime someone disagrees with you, tell em to get lost. Go you.

Hahaha, you are absolutely hovering over this thread, and the only reason for that is that you are incredibly invested in acting like a jerk. It's amazing you haven't looked at yourself and your behavior and said "You know what? I haven't posted so much as a single skill or tactic! I'm being a HUGE JERK here!" All you keep doing is telling people to play better. That's not a different opinion, that's you acting the prat.

So YES, GO AWAY. Jabs has been acknowledged as a bad change, and it's getting changed back. Nobody ever asked for it to be exactly as it was, but right now it's completely unhelpful. You offer no advice, no skill, no tactic, nothing other than OMG PLAY BETTER. We will not miss you at all. All you are is some variation on humblebrag, possibly it could be called the jerkbrag.

PayneTK

please "oxygen_boarderb16_ESO" just go outside again ..only thing you are contributing is "face it, its getting changed, deal with it, and get used to it" comments

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

My current bar for solo pve content:

1. Blazing Spear (can be swapped for any initiator/cc)
2. Brawler (insert aoe of choice/cc of choice)
3. Executioner (swap for execute of choice)
4. Repentance (swap for any support skill)
5. Fiery Shield (swap for survivability of choice)
6. Flawless Dawnbreaker (personal choice)

This build pretty much rocks any solo/questing content. Swap in and out for flavour. Sometimes Biting Jabs makes its way in to my rotation/builds, depends whats required and what kind of fight you have.

Sorry what?

At the minimum I posted an example of a very viable build. Where is your constructive feedback? Helpful posts? Other then getting defensive and attacking me?

Where is your build, your playstyle, why biting jab nerf is going to be so bad you have to quit.

Oh wait...

NerfEverything

luther_revan wrote: »

Before this update I was able to close my eyes on all the problems of the game because I enjoyed my journey, the universe, the environments etc. But this going too far, if I want a game with global cool down I'll go back to lotro, Swor or neverwinter without any monthly fees. The dynamism of the fights was a major plus in this game and now we are sent back 6 years back (just miss the tab targeting).
Let me be clear, I can stand a skill cool down if you want so hard to go back in time and if you think that bitting jabs was "to much op over damage blablabla on single target (still laughing at this excuse)", but a global CD after casting this spell? No way, I want dynamism, and fluid fights.
Not being able to do anything after casting one of my spell makes no sense in a game like that, add the lags which occurs time to time and you're dead (speaking about VR btw). I can manage packs without it of course (solar flare, sun shield, pulse, solar flare etc, bitting jab wasn't a spam thing in my builds) but the idea of this global CD just killed me and I'm wondering who put that idea on the table and why just for one templar skill. So as I see it, it's some shameful trick.
Trying to hide it, waiting bad feedback, then announce a rollback to normal with a cost nerf looks so like some corrupt politician technic that gives me nausea. Why just dont have the guts to face some rage before the patch announcing a up of the cost instead of sneaking it with some deceitful method. You can't beat someone everyday, and after some time just insult him instead, hopping he will be grateful.
This mades me cancel my sub to mark my disappointment and as I can't give a reason for that after doing it I wrote this comment. I still want to play that game so I'm hopping for a fix and maybe (we can always dream) some apologies and mea culpa for your sneaky tentative to rip us off, forcing us to appreciate a cost nerf against something worst. If this kind of joke occurs again I'll sadly reconsider the plan I had to stick to your game for some month/years.

Very well said. Their approach and attitude regarding balance has been so disheartening. I don't think they are capable of maintaining a game like this based on what I have seen in these past several months. That is why I cancelled my sub. I really enjoyed this game from level 1 to VR10, I don't regret buying it or playing it, but I am not going to subject myself to the inevitable frustration that will by caused by a company who doesn't seem able to figure out how to not break their game.

NerfEverything

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

I will step away from these threads

Finally!

PayneTK

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

My current bar for solo pve content:

1. Blazing Spear (can be swapped for any initiator/cc)
2. Brawler (insert aoe of choice/cc of choice)
3. Executioner (swap for execute of choice)
4. Repentance (swap for any support skill)
5. Fiery Shield (swap for survivability of choice)
6. Flawless Dawnbreaker (personal choice)

This build pretty much rocks any solo/questing content. Swap in and out for flavour. Sometimes Biting Jabs makes its way in to my rotation/builds, depends whats required and what kind of fight you have.

Sorry what?

At the minimum I posted an example of a very viable build. Where is your constructive feedback? Helpful posts? Other then getting defensive and attacking me?

Where is your build, your playstyle, why biting jab nerf is going to be so bad you have to quit.

Oh wait...

I'm sorry if you feel attacked, wasn't my intention. I didn't saw that u posted a build.

Problem is i'm using Sword and Shield. That build is for Two Handed. Not many AOE builds for Sword and Shield that doesn't require Biting Jabs.

Blazing Spear might be good in combination with Two Hand Stamina AOE's, but there are no AOE skills in Sword and Shield.

And pls don't say "u need to adapt" to Two Hands, and get used to it.

I love Sword and Shield and can't find a viable melee build for it to replace Biting Jabs that isn't ranged aoe.

oxylus

At this point it's the blatant lie of "We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible)" that bothers me more than the original balance failure.

fyrefenix

biting jabs was great but because bots abused it zenimax gaveth and taketh 'ed it away from us

fyrefenix

oh and now it uses so much mana you might as well ignore it altogether aedric spear tree is a joke follow peoples templar healing or mages guild builds or suffer the wrath of molag bal

by_saidoeb17_ESO

eta for the patch please, my subscription ends june 10 and I dont want to pay for a class that I cant enjoy

Mortosk

Mephos wrote: »

so.. 2nd patch after they said it will be reverted with the "next recent patch" and its still not working properly

Vibrating ponies and unintended hair cuts take priority. Changes that weren't documented at all initially and later explained incorrectly (it was supposed to be an ICD not a GCD - That's a big frigging difference, Zenimax) are secondary and can wait.

Mortosk

PayneTK wrote: »

I see

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO wrote: »

Catch up the conversation, since the acknowledgement, the "nerf" will be a change to its resource cost.

There are two problems with that announcement:
1. nobody knows when the next patch will fix this, so as a melee Templar with no other alts you may be paying a month of subscription just to feel depressed by your skills
2. nobody knows how much they will be nerfing the resource cost (it may destroy it completely just like Shield Bash)

The other slight issue, to use Jessica's terminology, is that she said they added 0.7 seconds to the internal cooldown. But in reality, they changed the existing 0.5 second ICD to a 1.2 second GCD, locking all our skills and leaving us defenseless whenever we make the mistake of using this skill. Just a slight oversight. I'm sure when they nerf the resource cost it will be just as slight.

Ragekniv

What other class has had their dps directly ninja nerfed for the plague of subscription paying "bots".

Do you honestly believe this undisclosed ninja nerf was an ethical and fair response to the "Bot" crisis?

When a Developer disrespects its player base by implementing undisclosed ninja nerfs, the community should be ALARMED by the precedent and vocally supportive of the affected class and its player base.

The absurdity of the communities response is depresssing. Sorcs and DKs ranting about L2P when they have yet to be touched by Zenimax in any meaningful way that disturbs their path to soloing to VR10 or enjoying end game content.

If Zenimax had ninja nerfed all classes in this manner there would be blood in the proverbial streets.

This undisclosed ninja nerf happened right before a holiday weekend. A weekend that many including myself had hoped to gain some leveling time on our Templars. Instead, we had to discover we were presented with a death sentence change in delay to biting jabs when facing multiple opponents and a patch increase to VR mob difficulty.

The developers have implemented two patches and a hot fix for Craglorn. Yet no concern beyond meaningless lip service has been forthcoming from Zenimax for Templars.

To add insult to injury, they want to increase the magicka cost of the broken ability when Templar DPS is the worst of all classes. Templars also have no resource management mechanic thanks to the almighty balancing that no other class has had to suffer.

When is it enough? I respecced to a build I do not like playing and its still a coin toss when taking on more than two VR6 mobs.

How is any of this balanced or reasonable? Why is there no outcry from the player base? What happened to Templars could happen to you, why not show solidarity and demand action for your fellow players?

madangrypally

oxylus wrote: »

At this point it's the blatant lie of "We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible)" that bothers me more than the original balance failure.

This is how I view it. They have no intention of changing it back and if they ever do it will likely be months from now when most have quit. I did not use the ability often but it fit into my characters design path. I have tried other specs and while I can make them work, its not what I enjoy. Why play a game if I dont enjoy it.

Nox_Aeterna

madangrypally wrote: »

oxylus wrote: »

At this point it's the blatant lie of "We will be reverting this change for the next patch (as soon as possible)" that bothers me more than the original balance failure.

This is how I view it. They have no intention of changing it back and if they ever do it will likely be months from now when most have quit. I did not use the ability often but it fit into my characters design path. I have tried other specs and while I can make them work, its not what I enjoy. Why play a game if I dont enjoy it.

hehe it is possible , on my end , they have till this month sub ends after that , im out of here if this is not fixed.

madangrypally

Guess there is no new info. This is pretty pathetic.

luther_revan

Ragekniv wrote: »

When a Developer disrespects its player base by implementing undisclosed ninja nerfs, the community should be ALARMED by the precedent and vocally supportive of the affected class and its player base.

I can't agree more, guess that communities are not as united as they were before. Everyone is part of some anonymous mass without caring anything about the others until something hit them. Our mission as mighty templars is to made ZOS understand that this kind of treachery must never happen again for the sake of all other classes (and of their bankers). Hope this will at least serve that purpose

Anzer

My worthless opinion (to Zenimax, at least) is that if there are 2 of 4 classes that excel in all areas, then the other 2 classes should be brought into line with them. I never like seeing someone being nerfed, I'd much rather the weaker classes be buffed. Sadly, Zenimax seems to be taking the exact opposite approach here and nerfing the weaker classes, with promises that things will "get better soon". Not sure what the logic is in that reasoning, but it's the line they're taking.

So, good for them I guess.