Was biting jabs nerfed?

Phantorang

starkerealm wrote:

There is more than waiting for the animation to end, on my end at least. I have a split second where my avatar can cast nothing magic or stamina based, enough time to die or be seriously wounded before I can do anything besides move.

This. And it sucks pretty hard

Kalman

It's not just bitting jabs. There is also a delay of about 1 sec after using explosive charge or solar barrage before you can use any other ability.

Lodos

No other skill that I've used has a global cooldown. The minute a skill does it's intended effect, any other skill can be used right away. This has been true with every skill I've used (correct me if I'm mistaken).

The addition of this global cooldown actually breaks a fundamental combat mechanic of a game that does not have global cooldowns. That is what leads me to believe that this was not correctly implemented. Perhaps they envisioned the skill would be unusable for 1.2 seconds (internal cooldown) and that would have worked with this games combat system. I can introduce another skill to make up that downtime. However, when that 1.2 seconds effectively takes away my combat capabilities entirely for every skill in my lineup (and potions? haven't tested), something is very wrong.

The secondary issue is that the change itself was also far too massive to have been implemented in the first place. .5 -> 1.2 is a huge reduction in effectiveness and should have been done in stages to see the effect it has on the class. Maybe an increase to .8 at first (or equivalent increase in magicka cost), then if still found needing attention, another staggered increase. This would have highlighted the impact of the change without crippling the players that currently rely on the skill. But to alter it so drastically, so suddenly and without documentation tells me that the change was a last minute thought that didn't have any proper testing behind it.

Phantorang

Tootall2186 wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother with forums anymore... Biting jabs is still as hard hitting of a spell as ever. You have a .2-1 second delay between casts of it and cannot simply spam one skill anymore, oh no!

Honestly learn to play the class. We have a lot at our disposal that helps keep our dps up. You ppl crying sound like the HS thief spammers on gw2... This is definitely a case that warrants the response, L2P!

Figure out how to play with more than one skill. If you can't, the door is right there... --->

No mmo should have a skill that makes taking on content just a spam feast of said skill. It takes everything out of the game. Where's the strategy, where's the fun, where's the challenge...?

I've played the majority of the game solo or duo with my father. I'm the Templar he's the DK. When I'm solo I have no problems taking on groups of mobs in vet areas or dungeons. But I also never fell on the crutch that was biting jabs like a lot of these complainers did.

The issue is, why roll a Templar, when you can roll a DK or Sorc and perform alot better... This game is 90% solo questing, thats how it is designed, so to make the Templars ability to solo so much less effective than DK and Sorc, takes the point of Templar away from the game.

PayneTK

hamon wrote: »

i agree. i,m not gonna keep playing this game much longer if they dont fix this , i like to play melee as my templar when solo , it breaks up the feeling of just being a perma staff user. but i simply cant function in melee without this skill. i'm not even gonna try any more... i,m sick of having the way i like to play taken away from me and having to adopt ways i never chose and enjoy less....

i,m also sickened by the way this was done.. it smacks of a sneaky way to try to gimp bots.. there was no big outcry on the forums about jabs being OP . there was no patch notes saying they were looking at this.
It all reeks of some idiot deciding this is the way to get bots killed. Most of my trust in ZOS to do the right thing has been lost over this

this is exactly how i feel right now

p.s. (i just canceled my subscription, 14 days remaining, if they don't fix Templar back in that time, i'm not even coming back)

brisingr90

Millitum wrote: »

@oldesarge Doesn't bother me at all. I barely notice any issues at all with this lockout in veteran level combat, unless I do not set up my skills timing properly. There is very little in this game, that a little determination, preplanning and execution cannot overcome.

It's an incredibly minor setback all things considered.

I don't just charge into combat, I always sit back, observe, plan and then execute. If plan A doesn't work, I always have plan B to fall back on.

http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/game-guide

"Play the Way You Like" if with Biting Jabs nerfed I can no longer play the way i like, and "forced" to play the way other people's play, then what is the point to continue play in this game? I just cannot see it.

Millitum

@‌brisingr90 can't argue the idea of playing the way you like, since if this does impact the way you specifically play, then your point is valid.

Perhaps me speaking about simply accepting changes, adapting to them and subsequently overcoming them, is due to working for a department and the best laid plans to combat a fire rarely go off without something fubar'ing them into the ground.

Chances are, ZOS will review Biting Jabs and realize that it is the only skill (correct me if I am wrong) with a global cooldown, and correct this.

Until then, people either need to buck up and deal with it, or shelve their Templar until it is fixed. That's the truth of it, and nothing else can be done.

Is the global cooldown annoying? Sure it is, but I time my abilities so that Biting Jabs is only used once I've either dazed, knocked down or stunned my targets, thereby negating the cooldown.

SoulScream

For my play style I don't find templar fun after these changes. I do still use my templar sometimes for healing but otherwise I made a new sorc to play instead.

madangrypally

It ruined the entire feel of my Templar. I dont use it often im mainly a healer, but when I did find some uses for it in pvp. Now its garbage and I dont even try to pvp anymore. Grats on ruining one of the weakest classes.

oxygen_boarderb16_ESO

madangrypally wrote: »

It ruined the entire feel of my Templar. I dont use it often im mainly a healer, but when I did find some uses for it in pvp. Now its garbage and I dont even try to pvp anymore. Grats on ruining one of the weakest classes.

Doesn't just kind of reinforce the point. Without Bitting Jab a templar sucks. Wouldn't it make sense to bring Bitting Jab in line with the rest of the skills, and re-balance to the benchmark of other classes?

Where is the benchmark right now for dps wise? Is templar their "ideal" and everything is overtuned or is it the templar that's under. Time will tell.

Nothing will happen over night, and balance is a long process, but eventually you get something close.

dermottib14_ESO

It sure got nerfed over night...

Pazzuzu

This thread has almost 16k views now. I haven't played my poor templar since the nerf patch. One hotpatch since and a patch last night did nothing for this issue.

If it was done to nerf the bots IT DIDN'T WORK. I still see trains of templar bots running around spearing everything to death. Funny how it doesn't affect them so much since if you are running 4 or 6 templars, 1 spear attack (x6) is more then sufficient to kill off mobs. Watched a guy doing this in Deshaan last night.

Terrible management.

williamburr2001b14_ESO

No this is just ridiculous. This isn't a matter of timing and preparation. Combat is fast. Most mitigation and avoidance lasts only several seconds at a time. The lag on animation end in which you can literally use NO OTHER SKILLS is just entirely game-changing. Jabs are melee. If you use them, you will die, because you will not be able to stun, control, avoid, attack, or do anything while the jab resolves itself.

Jabs are no longer useful for either cc or avoidance, as the enemy can recover and strike again while you're still on a 1.5 second universal cooldown. Jabs' dps is pathetically tiny. Jabs magicka use is very large. In short, jabs are now a completely useless skill, resource-intensive, bad at damage, worse than useless at cc as they actually leave you vulnerable.

Also, I hold serious doubts as to your "Plan A, Plan B" claims. If plan A fails, you're sitting in the pile of mobs with no stam or magicka. Also, above VR5, and against groups of 3 or even 2, the tide is determined within seconds. If you have a good defensive secondary bar and things go south, you *might* be able to execute a retreat and live if the surroundings permit, but this Plan B stuff sounds like hogwash. It's just shorthand for "ltp n00b."

Millitum

@williamburr2001b14_ESO well then, I guess I'm completely incorrect in the build I am using, and the success I am having with my build, is a complete illusion.

I don't mean to come off being snarky, but my build works. It works with Biting Jabs as my main means to DPS.

And nowhere do I insinuate with the aforementioned "l2p n00b", so frankly, you can shove that line.

You can surmise whatever you want out of my comments, that's you're prerogative and if it works for you, awesome. However, do not assume to know how I play, and what works for me, you have neither the right to assume that nor affirm it.

Call it hogwash, but I very rarely die, and if I do it's because I didn't set up my attack run correctly, wasn't paying attention or decided to try something without first weighing the outcomes.

williamburr2001b14_ESO

You're full of it. "There is very little in this game, that a little determination, preplanning and execution cannot overcome," is a direct quote, and an insinuation that people have trouble (all of the people actually contributing to this subject) are having trouble due to their own deficiency, and not because of the obviously broken game mechanics. That's "L2P noob" couched in humblebrag language. You claim you "can't tell the difference" in killing speed and survivability. I severely doubt this, but hey, maybe you're a dest staff lolruner who doesn't even realize he's relying on other broken OP skills. That's very possible.

But you really don't have anything to add at all to any conversation about broken jabs, or even how the change, whether it be fix, nerf, new break, or unintentional collateral damage while fixing an animation bug. You're doing fine. That's fine. We're all very interested in your amazing planning skills. What's funny about that is you haven't even mentioned a single other skill or strat. You've only said how great things are working out for you, and how others are complaining about a "minor setback" (so minor 90% of templars can't solo quest anymore).

Bully for you. What's your angle here again?

Gaudrath

What Millitum said. And for the thousand-th time, Jabs are a finisher. You use them to kill stuff. Not CC. Not avoidance. Kill. Open with something else. CC with something else. Finish them off with Jabs. I have Jabs permanently on my destro staff setup and while the delay is annoying it isn't gamebreaking. VR content and all.

Plus, they did acknowledge the problem and said they will be removing the delay and increasing the magicka cost.

Ruedik

i know it sounds stupid but for me im forced to reskill my heavy armor tank templar because he got nerfed to the ground.its absolutely unplayable and yeah i dont want to play destruction staff like everybody else and especially ive choosen orc as race which is not a really profitable mana race-.-.the slogan play what you want in which class you want is now a lie to me(and the most melees).its sad when you come online and realise that your class and your whole playstile and build is worth nothing

Millitum

@williambur2001b14_ESO I actually listed what I have on my toolbar, but I'll put it again.

Tool Bar 1: Inner Beast, Volcanic Rune, Biting Jabs, Immovable (morphed), Bone Shield.

Open with Volcanic Rune, either as offensive or a defensive CC line, hit the worst mob with Inner Beast (if I'm in group content, to get the heat off someone), use Biting Jabs to build Ultimate and spam (if I'm building enough) Empowering Sweep (yay for free armor). If I know that I'll be taking heat while using Biting Jabs, I'll use Bone Shield and Immovable (morphed) to augment my survivability.

Swap out my other tool bar with Resto Skills. Seems to work fine for me.

williamburr2001b14_ESO

Oy, yes, we all understand that people using Volcanic Rune, running Resto and Dest staff are doing okay. We all get that, as there are dozens of other threads showing that that is okay (and most likely OP for every class). Extolling the virtues of Undaunted skills is also not helpful, as that's a very heavy-investment skill line not available to all people right now.

To Gaudrath, jabs are only a finisher if they're not morphed to puncturing sweeps. Puncturing sweeps is useless. Does nothing, hurts you.

So hey, here's the overall point: There's a very narrow window of sustainable specs, and they rely on OP skills not even found in the Templar tree. If you're doing great with staves and guild abilities, how wonderful, but it's not very interesting in a discussion of Templar abilities.

grizzbi

Please don't listen to all the people who want to rely on a single ability to play their class. Remove the delay and increase the cost. It should be ok!

I'm a templar and I don't want my class to be a one trick poney. I've never had to rely on this ability to level or enjoy my character. If people just use it for what it is (one skill in a whole build), then they shouldn't worry so much about it.

Just slightly change 2 or 3 subpar skills to make them more interesting. We don't need more DPS. We need better CC (look at the widespread use of Volcanic rune). And maybe more ways to regen stamina efficiently to encourage more diversified builds.

Millitum

I'm actually using Sword and Board haha. Not Destro Staff, my bad for not making that clear earlier.

Gaudrath

When soloing I frequently play with just a single handed sword. No shield. No Jabs either. And I take on 3 VR mobs and do just fine. I do it for fun. Too bad you can't use S&B skills with just the sword equipped, but that's a different bag of nuts.

If I slot the volcanic rune... but I usually don't since I like to keep things a bit less slapstick.

So Templars are by no means "unplayable". As I said - the delay on Jabs is annoying and it will get removed. People moaning that they cannot play the game anymore because of one skill, that's just ridiculous.

Lodos

I'll start by saying that I still play my Templar and still use biting jabs, but only because it really has no substitute for melee sword and board. However, this is not just about the skill being nerfed or global cooldown being added to combat. It is about it being added to only one skill in the game for only one class and with no countdown counter or other indicators that it is there (just seems like lag); it is *how* it was done, the scale to which its usefulness was reduced so suddenly, and lack documentation. Even the Zenimax reps did not know about the change.

If players don't speak up in a very noticeable way, then this could become the norm with other game changes. Making massive uncontrolled and untested changes and hoping for the best is not a good strategy for any game, let alone one where subscriptions are on the line. From experience, when people leave an MMORPG, most don't look back. This makes shelving a main character a very poor option, especially in a game where alts are less appealing than previous MMOs. I prefer to see the complaints rather than a dying population.

To those that are saying that they have compensated for the change, it actually is an illusion. There really is no compensating for a global cooldown where you can't do anything on *any* skill (can you even drink potions?). Stuns and knockbacks are there to allow you to use skills in that time that take advantage of these effects. What you've actually done is allow the global cooldown to actually negate the stuns and knock backs that could have otherwise been used to proper effect. This is why the game has no global cooldown and such short stun durations. It simply doesn't support it a global cooldown.

williamburr2001b14_ESO

@Millitum it doesn't matter if you're using sword and board or destro or a pineapple, as you haven't listed any skills from that weapon tree. Undaunted, the heavily-known-to-be-broken Volcanic Rune, resto off. An OP skill, An OP wep, and one lonely little Templar skill as an unnecessary finisher.

@Gaudrath okay man good joke. 1 sword no shield no skill mentioned except Fire Rune, very funny, funny man. People get their kicks in weird ways.

Millitum

@williamburr2001b14_ESO‌ I'm curious as to why, Volcanic Rune is considered OP?

It's situational, doesn't work on certain mobs, and requires me to place it correctly or in a way to accommodate for mob movement. I can't count the number of times I've placed the rune under some ranged casters and they just book it out of the space, and I've just wasted a rune placement.

How is the resto staff overpowered? I actually run TWO Templar skills, Biting Jabs and Empowered Sweep, Biting Jabs fuels my Empowered Sweep, Empowered Sweep augments my armor so I can stay in close combat longer. It also does a decent amount of damage, and frankly, it looks awesome.

I do not kill things quickly, and most often, I need to dance around the mobs quite a bit to set up to do DPS. Biting Jabs, for me, is both a build up for my Ultimate AND a means to slowly kill the mobs.

As well, I've taken most of the passives in the S&B line, since it helps to augment my survivability.

Gaudrath

williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »

@Gaudrath okay man good joke. 1 sword no shield no skill mentioned except Fire Rune, very funny, funny man. People get their kicks in weird ways.

Let me see...

1. Reflective Light
2. Fire Rune
3. Blazing Shield
4. Dark Flare
5. Breath of Life
6. Empowering Sweep

Try it, it's fun. I use heavy/light attack as fillers a lot, also as chain combos. Lately been experimenting with Blinding Light on #3, a bit lackluster, gonna see what the morphs do. For #2 if I don't want to cheeze it with fire rune, I use Degeneration.

I'd frequently take 3 VR mobs with that. Of course, it involves blocking and not standing in red stuff. I never spam anything. And I frequently end up with stam/magicka to spare. Yes, sometimes it takes ten seconds longer for stuff to die, but that doesn't bother me.

If I need to take on something serious, I do use destro staff because that Pulsar debuff (do not spam) is just really nice to stack the odds in your favour. And Jabs is permanently #1 in that setup.

If I want to go defensive, I can always throw in Immovable, Rune Focus or Circle of Protection if fighting daedra/undead. Or whip out my shield. Or both.

Point is, Templar has a lot of options. You don't HAVE to use Jabs. And not using Jabs does not make Templars "unable to play".

Millitum

@Gaudrath‌ you're build sounds like a lot of fun, maybe I'll take out bone shield and sub in reflective light, as I've used it ages ago and it was a useful ability.

Do you find that RL, helps you out quite a bit, or is more situational for your play style?

brisingr90

Since much people more rely on skills in different line rather than their own class's skill line, why dont we delete Templar class and change it into Undaunted Class? Haha... this is idiot... why the *** i picked this class in the 1st place. I lost words for this stupidity nerfed.

Millitum

@brisingr90‌ the whole point of the ESO class system, was to give people a plethora of skills to choose from, so augment their play styles and unique take on class rolls.

I use Templar specific skills, mage skills, undaunted skills and general weapon skills to play. I tried going only for Templar skills once, and it was a horrible experience for how I play.

Nox_Aeterna

It is sad really , i still have to cancel my sub , but i will probably will spend the time later today.

The whole concept where you could use any armor/any weapon + the fact most builds will work up to 50 , makes people think those are ok , just to discover how bad they are in VR.

I got to vr9 using bitting jabs and other templar skills , still the fact remains , i made a templar to use the spear skill tree , they nerf that to a point where i cant use it effectively , there is no point in having a templar at all to me.