State of the game for NBs - 1.1.2 nerf (dk buff...?)

Eivar

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on an update post on the Nightblade class. We should have it today.

So any time estimate on when we'll get this update post? I'd love to see what kind of fixes are being worked on, I've shelved my NB for the time being, while not unplayable they are very frustrating. IMO Dual Wield / Bow is the basic archtype for a roguish assassin in the ES world, and having that be the weakest possible combo to use seems.......silly. I understand you can wear havy armor and use sword and board, or go caster, that's fine nothing wrong with it, but making those your only viable options just sucks. A lot of us don't WANT to play heavy armor tankers or casters, that's why we chose NB. As is the only way we can dish out dmg is from sneak attack, and that's only once a fight, our sustained dps drops dramatically and doesn't hold a candle to other classes, it's a shame, I really love assassin style gameplay but it's so clunky and unuseable right now that i had to pack away my vet 5 character and start a new character to play, just lost all my early access effort.

Solnai

Check the combat logs, an Ultimate ability doing almost a 3rd of the damage of normal class ability is for a lack of a better term BS

Surprise Attack: Shadow Tree

Soul Harvest (Death Stroke Morphed)

http://i.imgur.com/VViPhTo.jpg

monkeymystic

they have stated that NB fixes and buffs are coming in 1.2 patch.

monkeymystic

1.2 will prolly be in 4 weeks or so, since thats what they have said is their timeline between updates

Spiritreaver_ESO

monkeymystic wrote: »

they have stated that NB fixes and buffs are coming in 1.2 patch.

I've been posting a link to where they said that on Reddit a ton, but after the change today i'm really wanting a bit of a more in depth statement on their plans for Nightblades.

Harakh

monkeymystic wrote: »

they have stated that NB fixes and buffs are coming in 1.2 patch.

So after 2 Month we are at 1.1.2 if 1.1.3 comes in one month than 1.2 will come in ......mmhhhh..... 8 month i am looking forward to this patch

Sakiri

ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »

DK's got shield bash nerf (whichthey primarily used), Talon nerf (abused in PvP), and an upcoming huge Banner ult nerf (heavily abused in PvP).

I agree that Nightblades are getting the shaft right now, but let's not claim things that aren't true about other classes in our anger.

The aoe ultimate generation nerf just made Werewolves even more painful.

Aoe ultimate generation was the only reliable way to *get* ultimate. Stupid ridiculous cost.

SirJesto

Harakh wrote: »

monkeymystic wrote: »

they have stated that NB fixes and buffs are coming in 1.2 patch.

So after 2 Month we are at 1.1.2 if 1.1.3 comes in one month than 1.2 will come in ......mmhhhh..... 8 month i am looking forward to this patch

UMMMM 1.1.3 will be next week dude.

Harakh

ok that makes it a little better only 8 weeks to go

Evergreen

iDoseDMT wrote: »

Check the combat logs, an Ultimate ability doing almost a 3rd of the damage of normal class ability is for a lack of a better term BS

Surprise Attack: Shadow Tree

Soul Harvest (Death Stroke Morphed)

http://i.imgur.com/VViPhTo.jpg

Zenimax has this guy working on the Nightblade

Solnai

Can someone at ZOS respond to this, was this your idea of balancing our class by making another ability useless. Why exactly would anyone want to have points spent on an Ultimate ability that is completely lackluster. Why exactly was the damage reduced so much on Death Stroke, was it the numerous cries about how OP Nightblades were? How is making a single target Ultimate ability do significantly less damage balanced for a class that is supposed to be an assassin?

Combat Logs: http://i.imgur.com/VViPhTo.jpg

Ciarán

iDoseDMT wrote: »

Yea Death Stroke is complete **** now, just tested in game and it does exactly half the damage it used to do at Veteran Rank 10 with all Legendary gear on a lesser NPC....well below what Surprise Attack does. Well done ZOS

Edit: Will post with combat logs shortly

Screenshot of combat logs: http://i.imgur.com/VViPhTo.jpg

That screenshot is extremely misleading and biased, IMO.

I am assuming the battle went something like this.

Stealth + Dark Cloak -> Surprise Attack
Battle
Dark Cloak -> Soul Harvest

This is based primarily on timestamps. The first damage against the Wasp was Surprise Attack, and the most likely skill combination leading up to that would be stealthing in and using Dark Cloak to close the remaining distance. From there, over the next few seconds, he is using multiple different abilities prior to casting Soul Harvest. (Additionally, we cannot even tell if Soul Harvest was done after casting Dark Cloak. I am going to assume it was though.)

So you are comparing Stealth + Invis + Surprise Attack against just Invis + Soul Harvest. This is an invalid comparison. The Surprise Attack is benefiting from the guaranteed crit from normal stealth, in addition to any damage bonuses granted from coming out of Dark Cloak. Soul Harvest, on the other hand, is just getting the damage bonuses for coming out of Dark Cloak. Additionally, it did not even crit.

Until I see screenshots showing the Stealth + Dark Cloak damage of Soul Harvest vs Stealth + Dark Cloak damage of Surprise Attack, I will hold out reservations. Until then, this picture is proof of nothing.

dragnier

Ciarán wrote: »

iDoseDMT wrote: »

Yea Death Stroke is complete **** now, just tested in game and it does exactly half the damage it used to do at Veteran Rank 10 with all Legendary gear on a lesser NPC....well below what Surprise Attack does. Well done ZOS

Edit: Will post with combat logs shortly

Screenshot of combat logs: http://i.imgur.com/VViPhTo.jpg

That screenshot is extremely misleading and biased, IMO.

I am assuming the battle went something like this.

Stealth + Dark Cloak -> Surprise Attack
Battle
Dark Cloak -> Soul Harvest

This is based primarily on timestamps. The first damage against the Wasp was Surprise Attack, and the most likely skill combination leading up to that would be stealthing in and using Dark Cloak to close the remaining distance. From there, over the next few seconds, he is using multiple different abilities prior to casting Soul Harvest. (Additionally, we cannot even tell if Soul Harvest was done after casting Dark Cloak. I am going to assume it was though.)

So you are comparing Stealth + Invis + Surprise Attack against just Invis + Soul Harvest. This is an invalid comparison. The Surprise Attack is benefiting from the guaranteed crit from normal stealth, in addition to any damage bonuses granted from coming out of Dark Cloak. Soul Harvest, on the other hand, is just getting the damage bonuses for coming out of Dark Cloak. Additionally, it did not even crit.

Until I see screenshots showing the Stealth + Invis damage of Soul Harvest vs Stealth + Invis damage of Surprise Attack, I will hold out reservations. Until then, this picture is proof of nothing.

Would not matter, they removed the bonus dmg from stealth for Soul Harvest. Even if he was stealthed, it would not change the damage.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Eivar wrote: »

So any time estimate on when we'll get this update post?

Still working on it, with the Dev Team and QA. The goal is still to post it today.

a3surd

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Eivar wrote: »

So any time estimate on when we'll get this update post?

Still working on it, with the Dev Team and QA. The goal is still to post it today.

I appreciate the update. But to be honest I'm just about done with waiting for more sad news.

Sleepydan

kitsinni wrote: »

clueless wrote: »

McWop wrote: »

against an enemy player it'll do ~800 damage instead of 2k damage when fully charged from stealth

1 shot kill? no wonder it got nerfed

A one shot kill with full ultimate that you have to sneak up on them from behind and can only kill one person is not really OP.

concealed weapon from stealth does about 1800, as a point of reference. Most folks have around 3k hp. How is that even a one shot?

Ciarán

dragnier wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

iDoseDMT wrote: »

Yea Death Stroke is complete **** now, just tested in game and it does exactly half the damage it used to do at Veteran Rank 10 with all Legendary gear on a lesser NPC....well below what Surprise Attack does. Well done ZOS

Edit: Will post with combat logs shortly

Screenshot of combat logs: http://i.imgur.com/VViPhTo.jpg

That screenshot is extremely misleading and biased, IMO.

I am assuming the battle went something like this.

Stealth + Dark Cloak -> Surprise Attack
Battle
Dark Cloak -> Soul Harvest

This is based primarily on timestamps. The first damage against the Wasp was Surprise Attack, and the most likely skill combination leading up to that would be stealthing in and using Dark Cloak to close the remaining distance. From there, over the next few seconds, he is using multiple different abilities prior to casting Soul Harvest. (Additionally, we cannot even tell if Soul Harvest was done after casting Dark Cloak. I am going to assume it was though.)

So you are comparing Stealth + Invis + Surprise Attack against just Invis + Soul Harvest. This is an invalid comparison. The Surprise Attack is benefiting from the guaranteed crit from normal stealth, in addition to any damage bonuses granted from coming out of Dark Cloak. Soul Harvest, on the other hand, is just getting the damage bonuses for coming out of Dark Cloak. Additionally, it did not even crit.

Until I see screenshots showing the Stealth + Invis damage of Soul Harvest vs Stealth + Invis damage of Surprise Attack, I will hold out reservations. Until then, this picture is proof of nothing.

Would not matter, they removed the bonus dmg from stealth for Soul Harvest. Even if he was stealthed, it would not change the damage.

Would it not change the damage? Are you 100% sure, or is this pure speculation?

Either way, I still want to see proof of it before I call foul. In the notes, they said it will still cause a guaranteed critical hit. I will still hold reservations until I see exactly what effect this change has in actual raw numbers in the exact same circumstances as that Surprise Attack.

dragnier

Ciarán wrote: »

dragnier wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

iDoseDMT wrote: »

Yea Death Stroke is complete **** now, just tested in game and it does exactly half the damage it used to do at Veteran Rank 10 with all Legendary gear on a lesser NPC....well below what Surprise Attack does. Well done ZOS

Edit: Will post with combat logs shortly

Screenshot of combat logs: http://i.imgur.com/VViPhTo.jpg

That screenshot is extremely misleading and biased, IMO.

I am assuming the battle went something like this.

Stealth + Dark Cloak -> Surprise Attack
Battle
Dark Cloak -> Soul Harvest

This is based primarily on timestamps. The first damage against the Wasp was Surprise Attack, and the most likely skill combination leading up to that would be stealthing in and using Dark Cloak to close the remaining distance. From there, over the next few seconds, he is using multiple different abilities prior to casting Soul Harvest. (Additionally, we cannot even tell if Soul Harvest was done after casting Dark Cloak. I am going to assume it was though.)

So you are comparing Stealth + Invis + Surprise Attack against just Invis + Soul Harvest. This is an invalid comparison. The Surprise Attack is benefiting from the guaranteed crit from normal stealth, in addition to any damage bonuses granted from coming out of Dark Cloak. Soul Harvest, on the other hand, is just getting the damage bonuses for coming out of Dark Cloak. Additionally, it did not even crit.

Until I see screenshots showing the Stealth + Invis damage of Soul Harvest vs Stealth + Invis damage of Surprise Attack, I will hold out reservations. Until then, this picture is proof of nothing.

Would not matter, they removed the bonus dmg from stealth for Soul Harvest. Even if he was stealthed, it would not change the damage.

Would it not change the damage? Are you 100% sure, or is this pure speculation?

Either way, I still want to see proof of it before I call foul. In the notes, they said it will still cause a guaranteed critical hit. I will still hold reservations until I see exactly what effect this change has in actual raw numbers in the exact same circumstances as that Surprise Attack.

Yes, I'm sure because they said in the patch notes that it would not benefit from the stealth bonus damage. So Soul Harvest + Stealth + Invis = Soul Harvest + Invis = Soul Harvest + Stealth = Soul Harvest + Crit.

Basically, Soul Harvest and all of its different morphs are the same damage in every situation now as long as you have the same amount of Ultimate built up.

So the only variable to really consider is how much Ultimate they had built up before they did the test.

Esha76

Like many others, I was about to post even another thread screaming and yelling about the state of NB's after this patch. But as someone stated above, apparently Zen already knows and they will be fixed in a later patch. Which I seriously hope so, as this character is atrocious and boring now.

DW/medium armor(fully skilled up in all tracks)/assassin/siphon/bow - and I don't even use NB ultimates... The thing I loved the most about her DW build was how fast she attacked, total flurry of attacks. Real slice and dice. She had bodies dead and looted before they hit the floor. I wouldn't have batted an eye at some damage reduction, but this is just totally unacceptable.

Now she just wails on them like a drunken brawler, almost as slow as 2-handed.... Just lost all flare. I seriously hope they do fix this class, if NBs stay like this I will never use her again and that was a ton of wasted time being VR7.

tordr86b16_ESO

PBpsy wrote: »

You mean the reduction of ultimate generation of Drain Power and the nerf to S&B that makes the NB tanks quite a bit weaker? Or do you mean the nerf to destro staff that will make siphoning attacks destro staff build a pain?

This patch is a NB nerffest.

Be quiet.

kirnmalidus

monkeymystic wrote: »

kirnmalidus wrote: »

ckf12b14_ESO wrote: »

OP claimed DK's got a buff. They didn't. They got nerfed in the gut.

Some aspects of DK got nerfed, but they also got a number of buffs. Read the patch notes:

Burning Breath (Fiery Breath morph): Fixed an issue where this ability was doing less damage than intended. BUFF
Burning Embers: This ability now heals you if your enemy target dies while affected by it. BUFF
Dark Talons:
This ability can now damage monsters with snare immunity. BUFF
Fixed an issue where allies were not able to activate the synergy from Dark Talons. BUFF
Reduced the overall radius. NERF
Inhale (and morphs): This ability’s initial life drain morphs can now hit a maximum of three targets. This also applies to Inhale’s morphs. NERF
Petrify (and morphs): The enemy target’s health regeneration bonus while they were affected by Petrify and its morphs has been removed. BUFF
Razor Armor: Fixed an issue where this ability wasn’t granting bonus armor for the first 3.5 seconds. BUFF
Spiked Armor (and morphs): The damage return for this ability and its morphs has been increased. BUFF

So 7-2 Buff to Nerf. I'd call that an overall buff, not a "nerf in the gut."

LOL

So by your thinking, its like this:

Recieves 1$ BUFF
Recieves 1$ BUFF
Recieves 1$ BUFF
Lose 1000$ NERF

Your way of seeing that:
"duh hellooo, they got more buffffs omg! only one nerf and three buffs!!1"


Read what the notes and "buffs" you talk about actually are. its some minor bug fixes and major nerfs.

I don't disagree that the scope of the buffs for DK is small, but the fact that the DK class got bug fixes to correct broken abilities and the NB didn't (for the most part) is what I think is absurd.

Also, the radius decrease and target decrease for those two abilities don't seem like as big of a nerf as you make it sound to me. Maybe you can help me understand how those two changes significantly cripple the DK?

Eivar

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Eivar wrote: »

So any time estimate on when we'll get this update post?

Still working on it, with the Dev Team and QA. The goal is still to post it today.

Well thanx for the response, really curious to see what you guys are planning to help out this class.

PBpsy

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

PBpsy wrote: »

You mean the reduction of ultimate generation of Drain Power and the nerf to S&B that makes the NB tanks quite a bit weaker? Or do you mean the nerf to destro staff that will make siphoning attacks destro staff build a pain?

This patch is a NB nerffest.

Be quiet.

I can assure you that I wrote that post in total silence.

Esha76

So sad it's almost funny.... So, I'm on my sorc alt now, not even bothering with the NB until this is resolved. Walking through Vulkhel Guard, between the bank and crafting stations and back, I have seen a bunch of DW'ers (assuming NBs) swinging away testing out how terrible and slow their DW attacks/build is now.

Just wow.

Vuron

@dragnier wrote: »

The only reason anyone should ever open with Ambush is if you can't get behind your target in stealth for some reason.

Either morph of Veiled Strike, whether Concealed Weapon or Surprise Attack, hits harder and crits harder for less magicka.

Teleport Strike and its associated morphs are gap closers when they try to run, hence the stun on all of them and the snare on Lotus Fan.

Maybe you play a stamina build, but this is completely wrong. My ambush hits for 1500 from sneak behind the mob. The morph also sets up a huge damage increase with the next hit. You'really doing it wrong.

dragnier

Vuron wrote: »

dragnier wrote: »

The only reason anyone should ever open with Ambush is if you can't get behind your target in stealth for some reason.

Either morph of Veiled Strike, whether Concealed Weapon or Surprise Attack, hits harder and crits harder for less magicka.

Teleport Strike and its associated morphs are gap closers when they try to run, hence the stun on all of them and the snare on Lotus Fan.

Maybe you play a stamina build, but this is completely wrong. My ambush hits for 1500 from sneak behind the mob. The morph also sets up a huge damage increase with the next hit. You'really doing it wrong.

Nice try, Veiled Strike morphs hit for 1800 from stealth and if you use Surprise Attack reduce the targets armor for a longer duration than one hit which is still more damage.

And no, I don't play a stam build.

Jaxom

This is disappointing. Now the question is, do I keep Soul Harvest on my bar solely for the purpose of Ultimate gain and swap to Veil of Blade or replace it completed with Soul Tether?

They did buff the Ultimate gain with single target attacks so if you combine that, it may be worth keeping on the bar.

Thoughts?

dragnier

Jaxom wrote: »

This is disappointing. Now the question is, do I keep Soul Harvest on my bar solely for the purpose of Ultimate gain and swap to Veil of Blade or replace it completed with Soul Tether?

They did buff the Ultimate gain with single target attacks so if you combine that, it may be worth keeping on the bar.

Thoughts?

I would say it is useful simply for that purpose, yes.

Soul Tether isn't worth using single target as Soul Assault is better because of the huge snare and larger damage.

But for AoE, it depends on if you want the Stun from Soul Tether or the DoT from Veil of Blades. Build ultimate using Soul Harvest and then swap to your preference.

Ciarán

dragnier wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

dragnier wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

iDoseDMT wrote: »

Yea Death Stroke is complete **** now, just tested in game and it does exactly half the damage it used to do at Veteran Rank 10 with all Legendary gear on a lesser NPC....well below what Surprise Attack does. Well done ZOS

Edit: Will post with combat logs shortly

Screenshot of combat logs: http://i.imgur.com/VViPhTo.jpg

That screenshot is extremely misleading and biased, IMO.

I am assuming the battle went something like this.

Stealth + Dark Cloak -> Surprise Attack
Battle
Dark Cloak -> Soul Harvest

This is based primarily on timestamps. The first damage against the Wasp was Surprise Attack, and the most likely skill combination leading up to that would be stealthing in and using Dark Cloak to close the remaining distance. From there, over the next few seconds, he is using multiple different abilities prior to casting Soul Harvest. (Additionally, we cannot even tell if Soul Harvest was done after casting Dark Cloak. I am going to assume it was though.)

So you are comparing Stealth + Invis + Surprise Attack against just Invis + Soul Harvest. This is an invalid comparison. The Surprise Attack is benefiting from the guaranteed crit from normal stealth, in addition to any damage bonuses granted from coming out of Dark Cloak. Soul Harvest, on the other hand, is just getting the damage bonuses for coming out of Dark Cloak. Additionally, it did not even crit.

Until I see screenshots showing the Stealth + Invis damage of Soul Harvest vs Stealth + Invis damage of Surprise Attack, I will hold out reservations. Until then, this picture is proof of nothing.

Would not matter, they removed the bonus dmg from stealth for Soul Harvest. Even if he was stealthed, it would not change the damage.

Would it not change the damage? Are you 100% sure, or is this pure speculation?

Either way, I still want to see proof of it before I call foul. In the notes, they said it will still cause a guaranteed critical hit. I will still hold reservations until I see exactly what effect this change has in actual raw numbers in the exact same circumstances as that Surprise Attack.

Yes, I'm sure because they said in the patch notes that it would not benefit from the stealth bonus damage. So Soul Harvest + Stealth + Invis = Soul Harvest + Invis = Soul Harvest + Stealth = Soul Harvest + Crit.

Basically, Soul Harvest and all of its different morphs are the same damage in every situation now as long as you have the same amount of Ultimate built up.

So the only variable to really consider is how much Ultimate they had built up before they did the test.

You may be right, but I would still prefer to reserve judgement on the change until I can test it out for myself, where I can control all of the factors and make a truly informed decision. There are too many unknown factors to take that screenshot as gospel. Namely.

• Was the Soul Harvest from Invis or not?
• Does he have Shadowy Disguise or Dark Cloak?
• If he had Shadowy Disguise and Soul Harvest was from invis, why did it not crit? (Even if the damage was not multiplied, the addon he was using should display "You CRIT Wasp for XXX with Soul Harvest" instead of "You hit Wasp for XXX with Soul Harvest".)
• How much ultimate did he have saved up at the time? 1000 ultimate? 50?

Really, all I am saying is, we need more testing to discover the full extent of the change before we grab the pitchforks and light the torches.

Jaxom

Ciarán wrote: »

dragnier wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

dragnier wrote: »

Ciarán wrote: »

iDoseDMT wrote: »

Yea Death Stroke is complete **** now, just tested in game and it does exactly half the damage it used to do at Veteran Rank 10 with all Legendary gear on a lesser NPC....well below what Surprise Attack does. Well done ZOS

Edit: Will post with combat logs shortly

Screenshot of combat logs: http://i.imgur.com/VViPhTo.jpg

That screenshot is extremely misleading and biased, IMO.

I am assuming the battle went something like this.

Stealth + Dark Cloak -> Surprise Attack
Battle
Dark Cloak -> Soul Harvest

This is based primarily on timestamps. The first damage against the Wasp was Surprise Attack, and the most likely skill combination leading up to that would be stealthing in and using Dark Cloak to close the remaining distance. From there, over the next few seconds, he is using multiple different abilities prior to casting Soul Harvest. (Additionally, we cannot even tell if Soul Harvest was done after casting Dark Cloak. I am going to assume it was though.)

So you are comparing Stealth + Invis + Surprise Attack against just Invis + Soul Harvest. This is an invalid comparison. The Surprise Attack is benefiting from the guaranteed crit from normal stealth, in addition to any damage bonuses granted from coming out of Dark Cloak. Soul Harvest, on the other hand, is just getting the damage bonuses for coming out of Dark Cloak. Additionally, it did not even crit.

Until I see screenshots showing the Stealth + Invis damage of Soul Harvest vs Stealth + Invis damage of Surprise Attack, I will hold out reservations. Until then, this picture is proof of nothing.

Would not matter, they removed the bonus dmg from stealth for Soul Harvest. Even if he was stealthed, it would not change the damage.

Would it not change the damage? Are you 100% sure, or is this pure speculation?

Either way, I still want to see proof of it before I call foul. In the notes, they said it will still cause a guaranteed critical hit. I will still hold reservations until I see exactly what effect this change has in actual raw numbers in the exact same circumstances as that Surprise Attack.

Yes, I'm sure because they said in the patch notes that it would not benefit from the stealth bonus damage. So Soul Harvest + Stealth + Invis = Soul Harvest + Invis = Soul Harvest + Stealth = Soul Harvest + Crit.

Basically, Soul Harvest and all of its different morphs are the same damage in every situation now as long as you have the same amount of Ultimate built up.

So the only variable to really consider is how much Ultimate they had built up before they did the test.

You may be right, but I would still prefer to reserve judgement on the change until I can test it out for myself, where I can control all of the factors and make a truly informed decision. There are too many unknown factors to take that screenshot as gospel. Namely.

• Was the Soul Harvest from Invis or not?
• Does he have Shadowy Disguise or Dark Cloak?
• If he had Shadowy Disguise and Soul Harvest was from invis, why did it not crit? (Even if the damage was not multiplied, the addon he was using should display "You CRIT Wasp for XXX with Soul Harvest" instead of "You hit Wasp for XXX with Soul Harvest".)
• How much ultimate did he have saved up at the time? 1000 ultimate? 50?

Really, all I am saying is, we need more testing to discover the full extent of the change before we grab the pitchforks and light the torches.

I can tell you that my build was built around using Soul Harvest for crit. It was one of the only ways my build dealt with 13k HP bosses in PvE. I took a large chunk out upfront and tried to burst them down faster than they could kill me. My best crit was somewhere around 4.4k with Reaper's Mark. Going to have to reevaluate now.