Zenimax going back on a promise about Racial Motiff's in 1.2

SK1TZ0FR3N1K

Inupis wrote: »

SK1TZ0FR3N1K wrote: »

OK, let's solve this problem. Everyone out there with a rare motif, hold on to them for a few weeks. Take your posting down out of the guild store. Any that you pick up, send to an alt to hold. Let's pull them out of the market completely. For the next 2 weeks, if you want one, you can farm it. And, quit with the "casual player is getting screwed" crap...it's old, and it's flat bull crap. A casual player by definition is just cruising around the game. They are not in a hurry to get somewhere/something. It only hurts the "I want it because you have it, and that's fair" people.

these are not the real casuals...they are the game jumpers. They want to do everything and move to the next game. Real casuals log in and do their thing and do not stress about having the latest shinies. It is the "Keeping Up With The Jone's Without Working For It" crowd.

Exactly.

SDZald

Inupis you are missing the main argument here. We are NOT saying that some items should not be rare, even very rare. We are saying bind them to the account of the person who gets one. This eliminates the Gold Farmers. I just can't understand why you fail to see the point.

herbisaurusub17_ESO

I have noticed several players that buy rare motifs all day long.

They are the same players that sell alloy/wax/rosin all day long.

They are then selling the motifs for real dollars.

Zenimax is basically supporting this.

nyxnox

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

I have like 30 motifs floating around in my mail... I'm nearly ready to vendor them for 5g each... pst with an offer on the ones you need...

When I did find them I always gave them away when someone popped up in chat wanting to buy. That way they would not go to someone who will turn around and sell them for a ridiculous amount. But I have not found any for weeks.

WebBull

Isn't rare suppose to be....well... rare?

ElleShaped

herbisaurusub17_ESO wrote: »

I have noticed several players that buy rare motifs all day long.

They are the same players that sell alloy/wax/rosin all day long.

They are then selling the motifs for real dollars.

Zenimax is basically supporting this.

All that comment shows is that the people who spend all day playing the market tend to be the ones who have the most inventory and money from the market.

That seems normal and logical to me.

It might be true that people are selling things for real money, but I fail to see how your comment indicates any evidence of this.

Vlaxitov

SDZald wrote: »

Inupis you are missing the main argument here. We are NOT saying that some items should not be rare, even very rare. We are saying bind them to the account of the person who gets one. This eliminates the Gold Farmers. I just can't understand why you fail to see the point.

The problem with that in this case is that it just creates another market. The right Items made in the right motifs would be the new item of demand. It would probably generate even more revenue for gold sellers than the motifs themselves.

The motifs should have been quests or achievements or preset dungeon drops, something that could have been achieved by some other means than luck. That's the only way to really combat a 3rd party gold market demand for them.

firstdecan

Wow, another thread gone wild.

Firstly - the Motifs do have an effect in game. You need all the components of an armor \ weapon piece, including the mineral for the style, in order to create armor. Players who intend on being crafters can level crafting more quickly or create more things for others if they have more motifs because they will be able to use more of their style minerals. At VR ranks that may not be an issue, but for starting players it would be.

Secondly - The motifs \ style options are the only way to customize appearance. Most players will respond to the game more positively if the character they control is to their liking, which includes appearance. One of the intentions of the game is to provide players with an enjoyable \ personalized experience, so allowing players to create armor with a variety of appearances should be fairly accessible to most players.

Thirdly - If there are not going to be other options for customizing armor \ character appearance, the motif drop rate should be such that the basic racial motifs (1-9) are accessible to most characters through reasonable game play. I only have one toon, VR ranked, so I do not know what the drop rates feel like right now, but if I start a toon I would expect to find ~2 motifs in every zone by following the quest lines (and looting the appropriate containers). The "elite" motifs (10+) can be rarer, as there are a reasonable amount of options provided from the basic racial motifs.

Lastly - To anyone who has the audacity to say "Don't like it, play something else" you better hope you do not get your wish. This game will only exist as long as it makes money. It will make more money and have more financial resources to reinvest in improvements if it appeals to the widest audience possible. One of the easiest ways to do that is to allow cosmetic customizations that appeal to the individual, perhaps with a nominal amount of effort for most customizations, and a few "elite" options for the gamers who play all day and don't have a life (which is exactly what I think when I see someone in daedric armor - must be nice to live without responsibility).

Post Script - This is a game, and it's supposed to be fun. Anyone who thinks anything in this game is earned or an accomplishment needs to move out of mom's basement. This is supposed to be an "M" rated game for adults, if you don't pay rent or have a mortgage you have no concept of working for anything.

Lumpy_Space_Elf

LonePirate wrote: »

I still don't understand why these were intended to be rare in the first place. Rare items not earned via combat only generate economic problems and these motifs certainly have generated plenty of problems.

Instead of making these book found in lootable containers, the books should have been quest rewards. For instance, put a once a day quest in each faction's capital city where the loot reward is a random motif book from the first 10 books. I would then make the 4 "rare" books be email rewards for reaching Veteran Rank 3, 5, 7 and 9. Every player would have the same opportunity to earn those 4 motifs while simultaneously preventing people from hoarding these books and selling them for inflated prices. It would also serve as a carrot for those players who need an extra carrot to continue leveling the Veteran Ranks:

I'd be cool with that. I have no problem with the motif's, or any "rare" items, being a reward for a milestone, quest, or whatever. I also have no problem with rare items in general though, and think every game should have a couple very rare "chase" items to keep things interesting. That being said though, I do think they could come up with a better method of obtaining motif's then crates and trunks and such. Put them in locked chests, either in dungeons, or behind higher tier locks in public, maybe, or have them drop off of "boss" type mobs (anything stronger then a typical common trash spawn).

Shillen

The problem is if you intend something to be rare you have to make it rare from the get-go. You can't just let a whole bunch of people get all of them and stockpile extras and then make them rare. Put the drop back where it was.

SDZald

nyxnox wrote: »

Alpha_Protocol wrote: »

I have like 30 motifs floating around in my mail... I'm nearly ready to vendor them for 5g each... pst with an offer on the ones you need...

When I did find them I always gave them away when someone popped up in chat wanting to buy. That way they would not go to someone who will turn around and sell them for a ridiculous amount. But I have not found any for weeks.

I always try to trade my spares for ones I need. The other day a guy told me he didn't have any of the ones I needed but would be willing to give me a large amount of gold for one he needed. I told him I would give him one on retainer for a small amount and if he later found one I wanted I would return his retainer. Worked out well for both of us.

Please people even if ESO is short sighted and can't see what this is doing in game, work with each other, avoid the impulse to feed the Gold Farmers.

Ohioastro

As far as the normal motifs are concerned: is anyone honestly claiming that they can't find these in guild stores for a few hundred gold? Really?

Some people like to be able to get cool rare drops, and if they don't give you much of an in-game advantage, what's the harm?

By pushing them to make these untradeable you're pushing to remove one of the few things that have universal demand and market value for people. By pushing to make them universal or common you're saying that there shouldn't even be cosmetic rare drops - everyone gets everything right away.

Not everything has to be trivial for everyone to get, and changes like this can jut as easily spoil a game for players as they can make it better.

Jim_McMasterub17_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey there, everyone. We wanted to clarify a couple things for you about this issue -

The note you’re seeing in today’s patch notes regarding the reduced rate of earning racial motifs and provisioning recipes is actually for a reduction that already happened in patch v1.0.5, but we unintentionally missed the patch note for it when it was first introduced. Our apologies for the confusion this may have caused.

When this reduction initially happened, it presented an issue that caused more empty containers and furniture than intended. That issue has been fixed in today’s patch, so you will no longer find interactable objects saying they have items, but are actually empty.


Note: Post edited for a spelling mistake, oops!

Thanks for the heads up @ZoS_GinaBruno ..I know many of us have recognizable names to you by now.

Mostly for less-than-stellar reasons. Hope you know we appreciate you & your responses.
Lotsa love & sunshine from Alaska!

demonlkojipub19_ESO

firstdecan wrote: »

Wow, another thread gone wild.

Firstly - the Motifs do have an effect in game. You need all the components of an armor \ weapon piece, including the mineral for the style, in order to create armor. Players who intend on being crafters can level crafting more quickly or create more things for others if they have more motifs because they will be able to use more of their style minerals. At VR ranks that may not be an issue, but for starting players it would be.

Dude enough with that. I leveled all my crafts to 50 by deconning stuff I looted as I adventured Tamriel. From level 1 on, equipment drops from mobs like flies. You need only loot it and carry it over to the crafting station. Instant EXP, or research if it has a trait you need.

The "dagger trade" is only 1 method, used to waste materials you've gathered or gained through decon. I did it once for blacksmithing and found it to be a waste of my time, when I could be out there gaining EXP and getting other loot while I gather stuff for decon exp. You get plenty of inspiration deconning dropped gear, and there are many dropped gear that have increased inspiration gains, brought to you just to be deconned.

And even then, you only need 1 style to do the dagger trade, the one you start with. They sell all the starting race style gems at the crafting merchants for chump change, and you'd get plenty from furniture and deconning of looted equipment.

Guppet

I got a dark elf motif earlier today, so they do drop. What would that sell for on the EU mega server?

SDZald

Guppet wrote: »

I got a dark elf motif earlier today, so they do drop. What would that sell for on the EU mega server?

The Basic ones don't go for much, I see them in chat all the time for 2K or less. I don't sell my spares I trade them for the ones I don't have. I have no clue why I can't find any Breton Motifs even in trade, of course once I get one then that will be all I find LOL

Vikova

rar·e

1
: marked by wide separation of component particles : thin <rare air>
2
a : marked by unusual quality, merit, or appeal : distinctive
b : superlative or extreme of its kind
3
: seldom occurring or found : uncommon
— rare·ness noun

nyxnox

[quote="EvilEmpire;867248"][/quote]

Somewhat confused, but I'm going to assume this helps in some way. I'm not sure, but it feels like it should. I might be wrong.

That said, is there a chance that you guys might look at possibly increasing the drops rates if this fix doesn't seem to help with matters?[/quote]


are you serious?

AlexCala7b14_ESO wrote: »

hightoriab16_ESO wrote: »

Has anyone actually found a motif recently?

Some have, but they are the exception, the rule is that you are not likely to see them, since the drop rate is so atrocious now.

I have been shaking my head at reading this post. YOU are exactly what is wrong with MMOs today. So many spoiled, pompous little brats. Always gimme gimme gimme so everything is so easy for you on a silver platter. I bet you were first in line to buy the Game Genie when it came out.


There have been PLENTY of people finding the rare motifs (found Primal myself yesterday). Just because you haven't, or your guildmates (assuming you have asked all 1300 of them personally and got 1300 'no' responses), doesn't mean the drop rate is so abysmally low that it's basically non-existant like your whining suggests.[/quote]






There are many was of stating your opinion and getting your point across with out being rude, condescending or resorting to name calling. Doing so does not make your point more valid. These forums are to bring all of the differing opinions to light so as to come up with solutions for problems or at least compromises. My point is that no one should be spoken to like this. There are better ways of communicating, even your displeasure...

AlexCala7b14_ESO

@ZoS_GinaBruno But should they be so rare that their going for prices in the market house which can only have been obtained by exploiting prior to the nerf when people could dupe gold and items, or buying gold from gold sellers? That's part of the issue. There's rare, and then there's impossible-to-get-almost rare.

I guess we'll see what happens, with the patch but I don't see it changing much, unfortunately.

ZOS_GinaBruno

AlexCala7b14_ESO wrote: »

@ZoS_GinaBruno But should they be so rare that their going for prices in the market house which can only have been obtained by exploiting prior to the nerf when people could dupe gold and items, or buying gold from gold sellers? That's part of the issue. There's rare, and then there's impossible-to-get-almost rare.

I guess we'll see what happens, with the patch but I don't see it changing much, unfortunately.

Yeah, spend some time playing with this new patch first. If you truly feel like the motifs are so rare that they're impossible to attain, let us know. As mentioned earlier, we'll keep an eye on the feedback.

SDZald

nyxnox wrote: »

.....

There have been PLENTY of people finding the rare motifs (found Primal myself yesterday).
...

Yea there are so many around they are only selling for $500K LMAO and by the way it is fairly immature to make insults and personal attacks on people who don't agree with you.

hightoriab16_ESO

Personally I would be okay with low drop rates if it wasn't for the fact that every building I come across has already been looted, every container is either empty of left untouched because it had nothing of value. If the containers were instanced, or the items within different for each player, then I feel that people would have a chance of finding a rare drop without someone beating them to it, which invariably happens 99% of the time.

temjiu

Oberon wrote: »

There is nothing forced, but if a player wants those items, he's not going to get them in game. He's going straight to a gold seller to obtain gold so that he can then purchase one from another player who exploited to get them. The problem is that this runs directly counter to ZOS' stated intention to get rid of gold sellers.

.......
The issue is that the current drop rates drive players to gold sellers in a big way. It has nothing to do with entitlement or perceived rights.
...........................

The crafting motifs are just cosmetic, so it would do zero harm to simply dramatically increase their drop rates and make them bound to your account--a simple, elegant solution that kills the biggest incentive in the game for players to purchase from gold selling bots.

If your ability to play is unhindered by not having Daedric/Ancient Elf, then you would not have any problem with them being made account bound. As an added bonus, bots/gold sellers would be severely damaged. Win-win.

QFT. Bethesda says they want to kill bots, but they don't understand the true underpinings of bot-ism. they are creating an environment to motivate people to buy the gold.

1) they make important things in the game cost gold
2) they make gold a rare resource. it's obtainable, but not in great quantities and not without focused effort
3) they take things important to the players (whether they impact stats or not), and make them rare...but still farmable...and SELLABLE.
4) they put rare things in the game and then open up the UI so people can tinker with it...why did they NOT think there would be tons of botters?

#4 goes directly to the reason we have so many bots. if you put a 10,000$ stereo system in your living room with bay windows, and then leave your backdoor open...eventually you will get people coming in wanting that stereo. open UI = Backdoor. There's a reason many new MMO's are going with a locked UI and no add-ons. I'm not an anti-addon person, but im also realistic about things. I know the price to pay for having add-ons and an open UI...and bots are part of it.

#3 goes directly to benefiting gold-sellers and bots. they have unlimited time (thats why they use bots), and they can take as long as it's needed to farm for the items. Players, who by nature of not doing this for a living, are limited in time. If every player had a bot, and could run it 24 hours a day, this wouldn't matter, as we'd all have plenty of rare motifs that we could sell. Ooops...then we'd be botters. right.

right now there are just too many things requiring gold in the game! This is probable a conversation for a different thread, but it ties in directly to this issue...because motifs are such a hot item with players (and thus a hot item for botters).

JessieColt

firstdecan wrote: »

Wow, another thread gone wild.

Firstly - the Motifs do have an effect in game. You need all the components of an armor \ weapon piece, including the mineral for the style, in order to create armor. Players who intend on being crafters can level crafting more quickly or create more things for others if they have more motifs because they will be able to use more of their style minerals. At VR ranks that may not be an issue, but for starting players it would be.

No one said they didn't have an affect in the game. What has been said, by me and others, is that costumes, including Racials do not have an affect on the Armor other than to change the look.

Also, the rarer the Racial, the rarer the Racial Stones. I have 3 Daedra hearts sitting in my inventory for the day I finally loot the actual racial. I have been playing since Pre-Access and my main is V5.

However, I have well over 100 obsidian, starmetal, corundum, etc., for the 1-9 Racials that are more common and easily obtained through the lower level zones.

Secondly - The motifs \ style options are the only way to customize appearance. Most players will respond to the game more positively if the character they control is to their liking, which includes appearance. One of the intentions of the game is to provide players with an enjoyable \ personalized experience, so allowing players to create armor with a variety of appearances should be fairly accessible to most players.

Not true. Costumes drop in nearly every zone as part of the normal, progressive, quests. I have something like 5 of them in my bank, and I have seen others ask if there are specific costumes for sale. Racials are not the *only* way to change your characters appearance.

Thirdly - If there are not going to be other options for customizing armor \ character appearance, the motif drop rate should be such that the basic racial motifs (1-9) are accessible to most characters through reasonable game play. I only have one toon, VR ranked, so I do not know what the drop rates feel like right now, but if I start a toon I would expect to find ~2 motifs in every zone by following the quest lines (and looting the appropriate containers). The "elite" motifs (10+) can be rarer, as there are a reasonable amount of options provided from the basic racial motifs.

They already are. Too many people are posting about how easy it is to get, and now many times they loot, the 1-9 racials, yet this thread isn't about those racials, even though there are a ton of posts about them in here.

The original topic of the thread is regarding 10-14 Racials. The rarer ones that drop in the higher level and V+ Zones.

Lastly - To anyone who has the audacity to say "Don't like it, play something else" you better hope you do not get your wish. This game will only exist as long as it makes money. It will make more money and have more financial resources to reinvest in improvements if it appeals to the widest audience possible. One of the easiest ways to do that is to allow cosmetic customizations that appeal to the individual, perhaps with a nominal amount of effort for most customizations, and a few "elite" options for the gamers who play all day and don't have a life (which is exactly what I think when I see someone in daedric armor - must be nice to live without responsibility).

Post Script - This is a game, and it's supposed to be fun. Anyone who thinks anything in this game is earned or an accomplishment needs to move out of mom's basement. This is supposed to be an "M" rated game for adults, if you don't pay rent or have a mortgage you have no concept of working for anything.

The racials are not impossible to get. They DO drop. And lots of people get them, sometimes even more than once. I have gotten 2 Primal's since the 1.05 patch where the drop rate was lowered.

The complaints have been that they do not drop often enough, causing users stress because they do not want to keep opening containers in the hope that they will get one, or that they feel they are forced to pay a high price for one from someone they believe might be a gold farmer.

JessieColt

hightoriab16_ESO wrote: »

Personally I would be okay with low drop rates if it wasn't for the fact that every building I come across has already been looted, every container is either empty of left untouched because it had nothing of value. If the containers were instanced, or the items within different for each player, then I feel that people would have a chance of finding a rare drop without someone beating them to it, which invariably happens 99% of the time.

This has been acknowledged by ZeniMax, and fixed in today's release as noted in the Patch Notes.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/100211/patch-notes-v1-1-2

Slantasiam

AlexCala7b14_ESO wrote: »

We were told they would investigate the dissapearance of Motiff's /TWO WEEKS AGO/.

(Thread hear, quote from ZoS below.)

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/93552/the-disappearance-of-racial-motifs/p3

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, we're going to investigate this issue and let you know what we find out. Thanks for the reports!

For a problem that has been documented for almost a month now. Yet with todays' pathc note,s we find the drop rate is being /REDUCED/ even /MORE?/ What the hell? We were told they'd investigate, who the hell came up with the idea to reduce them even more? Is it really so hard to see that the drop rate on Motiff's is too little now and the nerf was too hard? Why are the casual players being /PUNISHED/ when it was bots and exploiters who were the problem? And why are we being /PUNISHED/ more for an issue that is of no benefit to the community, the game, or the morale as a whole?

I've been on Zenimax's side since forever, but this? This where I draw the line. What the hell is going on guys? Why are you not fixing the overly nerfed drop rate? And why are you punishing the honest people when it's the dishonest ones who were the issue? Why are you going back on your word and your promise to investigate this stuff?!

it can only be assumed that zos owns all the bots and gold farmers and are making money from them because a player has no chance at all to get these motifs any more without buying them from gold sellers.

Huggernaut

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Honestly, you guys were way too heavy handed with the nerf to the drop rates on these motifs.

The only thing todays patch is going to do, is give us more chances to get more cooking mats that are automatically junked.

Whatever you guys did INITIALLY, when you changed the drop rates for motifs / lootable containers, is the problem. Fixing some of the empty containers isn't going to fix anything, because it's the items that are coming out of them (or not) that is the problem.

So why on earth would we need to play this patch before offering any advice.

We've BEEN playing with these rates for some time now, we know what they are like and we DO NOT like them.

I am not sure how much clear that can be made to you.

vyal

As far as I can tell, the drop rates for motifs and recipes are identical 1.1.2 vs. 1.0.6 -> 1.0.8 (today vs. yesterday).

In other words, nothing changed in this regard, as far as I can tell. Yes, containers that can drop recipes and motifs now produce the regular crap they're supposed to, but as far as drop rates go, not seeing any change.

I'll post again if my testing confirms anything different, but so far, it's the same or worse with every test pass I do. /shrug
EDIT:typo

AlexCala7b14_ESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

AlexCala7b14_ESO wrote: »

@ZoS_GinaBruno But should they be so rare that their going for prices in the market house which can only have been obtained by exploiting prior to the nerf when people could dupe gold and items, or buying gold from gold sellers? That's part of the issue. There's rare, and then there's impossible-to-get-almost rare.

I guess we'll see what happens, with the patch but I don't see it changing much, unfortunately.

Yeah, spend some time playing with this new patch first. If you truly feel like the motifs are so rare that they're impossible to attain, let us know. As mentioned earlier, we'll keep an eye on the feedback.

Will do!

Drachenfier

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We'll certainly keep an eye on the feedback about motif drop rates after this patch rolls out and you've had a chance to play through. That said, it is intended that these should be rare items, so keep that in mind.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ Hi Gina What about provisioning recipes? Those were also hit in the drop rate reduction change to motifs. Are those supposed to be rare? Even green recipes now drop about 1/4 as often as they used to, and I have yet to find a blue recipe, much less purple, since 1.05.

Edit - correction: I did find one blue recipe :P