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Re: POV: ZOS are trying to balance classes
imaslowlearner wrote: »PvP just needs to be permanently be made into vengeance
This would fix all of the balancing issues, and we get that cool sky all the time
Vengeance is horrible, not a single actual pvper liked it, if it's going to be the case then pvp is dead
Prionyx
14
Re: Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?
I don't like housing or ToT.
But, I would never ask them to be removed because some do like them.
I like subclassing but can understand others don't.
Also, if they hadn't balanced the classes in the time they had before removing subclassing won't make one bit of a difference.
If you don‘t like housing or ToT you can just notplay housing or ToT.
If you don‘t like subclassing while you can decide to stay pureclass yourself you will still have to fight subclassed builds outperforming pureclass builds in PvP, compete against subclass reaching scores unreachable for pure classes on arena/trial score boards and have to reach a dps requirement for guilds calculated with subclassing in mind if you do that kind of content so you cant play like it doesnt exist.
Iriidius
2
Re: Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?
@BXR_Lonestar
So you're playing the game according to the rules you want instead of its actual rules, so of course it's not resulting in improvements.
There's really not a lot a huge amount of trial and error involved to get basic improvements. I seem to recall Skinny Cheeks highlighted quite a few HA builds.
I have all the meta stuff, if I want to copy someones build I can do that easily. But I thought the whole point of having subclassing was that it was going to allow you to make all different kinds of creative builds that should be more functional now that you can drop one or more useless skill lines for your build and select other skill lines that should be more in line with what you want your build to do. But its not that simple, and there actually IS a huge amount of trial and error when you aren't copying what someone else has already done.
Beyond that, the grind to level up skill lines I've already leveled up on other characters is a barrier to going out and experimenting with your build. This is especially difficult when you play as a support (tank or healer), which is my main role.
Overall, my point is that this stuff is half-baked and I'd prefer if they just roll the changes back and focus on making GOOD changes to improve each class. To me, the current state of the game says "We have no vision for this game so we're just going to try something to generate excitement."
Re: Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?
If something shouldn’t be added in the way it was added then I suppose the answer is Yes
It’s not about balance though. Balance is nice but classes are just vital to mmos for many reasons
Like for example seeing who the heck you actually fight against in pvp so you know what to expect and how to counter them creating whole basis of skill
It’s not about balance though. Balance is nice but classes are just vital to mmos for many reasons
Like for example seeing who the heck you actually fight against in pvp so you know what to expect and how to counter them creating whole basis of skill
mrreow
2
Re: Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?
BXR_Lonestar wrote: »I don't think they will, but IMO it is something they should consider doing. I realize there are a lot of people excited about the game, but the more and more I play around with subclassing (and not building cookie-cutter builds that are being posted online), the more frustrated I find myself getting with the system. The system is supposed to make it easier to do higher DPS and have builds that have greater synergy between your main skill lines, and the more I play around with non-META builds, the more frustrated I keep getting because I see my dps drop in comparison to where my builds were before. It's not just me, as I see other people saying the same thing.
No, you don't have to make a meta build. But that doesn't mean any combination is going to result in an improvement!
It's a game. Game have to be played by the rules. To do that, one must have an understanding of the rules. Many who play ESO do not, but after playing their classes for years, they either followed a guide or advice at some point or intuitively figured it out after a process of trial and error.
In general, if one wants their dps to improve, they must combine skill lines that provide the basics such as Major Brutality/Sorcery and Major Savagery/Prophecy. Next, they should consider passives. Then there are the minor buffs and things like berserker. Then they need to imagine their combat rotations.
Are you missing something important? Do not despair, you can lean into Scribing. Truthfully, Scribing can fix pretty much any shortcomings.
If one does those things, it is unlikely they will end up worse off than before. It doesn't even have to be 3 dps lines. For example, Warden's Lotus Flower from the Green Balance line grants Major Savagery/Prophecy when active. Warden is actually a good dps class and probably one of the best for overland and dungeons.
Of course, all of this also requires learning about the classes you want to subclass!
If one wants to meme or play a themed build, well of course they shouldn't expect it to just work. But again, they can lean into Scribing to correct any shortcomings.
Why would class purists struggle with this? Well, if someone is a purist and especially someone who has only played one class, of course they are predispositioned not to be flexible. That's on them, but it's also fine because their pure class is perfectly fine if they don't want to explore new realms with basic logic -- this is not rocket science, but some effort is required.
With all that said, is more dps what's truly important for one's activities? A lot of players will be better off with a pure class for the activities they do because pure classes are so well balanced and they're used to playing them. 3 dps line builds might have some serious shortcomings for some players.
I speak from experience. I am levelling subclassing on my mule account when I have spare moments by playing the game instead of grinding. Every build I'm using is completely off-meta and they've all been fine, even with low level skill lines. More than fine, it's been fun. Scribing is the key.
tl;dir: Major Brutality/Sorcery, Major Savagery/Prophecy, Scribing
@Desiato
I've been playing this game a while and I know this as good as anyone. The disappointment isn't that the combinations that I have been trying don't work. The disappointment is the fact that the implementation of the subclass system has been sloppy and poorly thought out, and so subclass skill lines that SHOULD have some synergy together actually have none. Take, for example, petmaster builds. Daedric prey from the Sorc summoning tree doesn't grant its 50% damage buff to other pets outside of the Sorc summoning tree. That means the other pet skill lines are basically a DPS loss.
And nearly every skill line I've added to my HA sorc has been a DPS loss when parsed on the trial dummy in comparison to what my sorc was doing as a pure class build. That includes skill lines that should apply general buffs like the assassination skill line that filled in my build's shortcomings with extra crit chance, crit damage, and a better execute. Still performs more poorly than my pure class for some reason.
Stuff like that wouldn't happen if subclassing was well thought out and the game was purpose-built for it, but this game wasn't. Somewhere someone decided that it would be a good move to just let any class select skill lines from any other class without much thought as to how these classes would fit together.
For a veteran of this game, this is the kind of stuff that wants me to play less, not more. I had builds I was happy with, but those builds are going to be left behind if I don't go through this frustrating process of trial and error and theorycrafting for each one of my characters to find the magic combo for what works for me.
The very least they could have done is put more thought into how subclassing would be BALANCED and not just release subclassing first, and THEN look to balance it with future patches as they are looking to do in U47. That way if you didn't subclass, it didn't feel like such a big penalty to how you choose to play the game. But doing this wasn't that bright either. "Yeah, we know its broken, but we're going to push this stuff out anyways, and we'll fix it later." Tell me where this would work in ANY other industry? Would you buy a car from a dealer had that attitude?
Maybe this crap will be good in 6 months or a year after they've worked out all the kinks, but right now, I'm finding the game to be much less fun than it was before, and I'm not alone because I've seen a noticable dip in my guilds and the number of players who are choosing to play other games instead of this one.
Re: Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?
old_scopie1945 wrote: »old_scopie1945 wrote: »Not a snowballs chance that will ever happen. Just wishful thinking on my part. I guess we will just have to suffer. How long, your guess is as good as mine.
If you don’t enjoy the game, why do you play it?
Not meaning to sound rude, genuinely curious.
Well it is rude and disrespectful. It is not your place to question what others may or may not do within the law. So no chance that you will get an answer to your question from me.
I intentionally disconnected you from the post before you posted this to make it more of a general question, not just for you.
But yeah; if you’re on here trashing a game that I and others enjoy, it is well within my right to ask why you play a game you trash on.
What are you on about? Did you not read OP's question "Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?". How are we "trashing a game" when we are showing concern that ZOS are doing a great job of trashing the game, in our opinion. It indicates that we are concerned that subclassing, in its current form is affecting enjoyment and the possible future of the game. Also on how ZOS interacts with the player base.
Re: Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?
If you don’t enjoy the game, why do you play it?
I see that you have now edited your quote.
Re: Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?
old_scopie1945 wrote: »Not a snowballs chance that will ever happen. Just wishful thinking on my part. I guess we will just have to suffer. How long, your guess is as good as mine.
If you don’t enjoy the game, why do you play it?
Not meaning to sound rude, genuinely curious.
Well it is rude and disrespectful. It is not your place to question what others may or may not do within the law. So no chance that you will get an answer to your question from me.
Re: Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?
I find this poll fascinating, really. These forums are ground zero for Subclassing complaints, as they don’t exist elsewhere… yet the data is showing that you guys are a vocal minority here too.
Even if you took all the free “Other” votes, it would still not be enough for “Yes” to outweigh “No”.
It's a fair enough opinion. I think it's probably right. But I think most players love subclassing, but most players also love just spamming heavy attack with a lightning staff. [snip]
[edited for inappropriate content]
Re: Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?
L33T_BEANS wrote: »They won't roll it back until it affects their profits or overrall player count. I'll just wait for 'ESO Classic' like every other MMO.
Which is why I'm going to shout out Guild Wars 2 which nailed subclassing properly. Instead, ESO is pulling a Runescape and just ruining it. I'm sure once the noobs who enjoy spamming beam everywhere start getting bored of doing so, they'll start leaving too.
It took Jagex years to figure out they ruined Runescape, and now their 'classic' version has a higher population than their 'Improved' version. They even just flat-out finally admitted that MTX has ruined their game!
I don't know. I think this decision will pay off in the short-term at the cost of the long-term.
Most other MMOs don't have a classic, especially if they are newer. FFXIV doesn't have classic and never will. Guild Wars 2 doesn't have classic and never will. Obviously NW doesn't have one. SWTOR doesn't have one. Which MMOs have classic? WoW. Runescape hardly counts because osrs is a completely different game. OSRS isn't a "classic" offshoot of Runescape 3, feels weird to even classify it as such.
Classics don't make sense for most games. WoW underwent some major changes, including world changes during Cataclysm, that qualify it for such a version. It is also simply old and nostalgic enough to make the classic version profitable. FFXIV had the A Realm Reborn, but going back to pre ARR nobody would even consider, after all the whole game make over was to save it from certain death. Most other games haven't changed much. They add new story, new locations, rebalance classes, going back to some sort of previous version is hardly worthy of an entire separate game's upkeep, especially when nobody will play or pay it. Even the major updates ESO does are relatively minor in the end. Most of them are separate from the rest of the game and can frankly just not be engaged with whatsoever. Scribing? You could play without it, no issues. Companions? Who cares. Subclassing? You just keep your old 3 skill lines and play like nothing ever happened, plus/minus a few % worth of dps.
What version specifically would you propose ESO goes back to? Pre Tamriel Unlimited? The equivalent of going back to pre ffxiv's ARR? I don't think ZoS would ever even entertain the thought. Some arbitrary update after Tamriel Unlimited where your favourite class was powerful enough, and the classes you disliked were weak enough? Sure, but you'd need to consider that other people would then request a different version. And most importantly, you really think ZoS will be willing to pay for the upkeep of that version that a 100 people will play, maybe, if you're lucky?
No, actually I don't have much faith at all in them. Ask me that 4 years ago, and I'd have said a solid maybe despite their struggling to balance even back then. Now weaving is just pointless, everyone is some kind of blend of Arcanist soup which is just quite sad to me. For me this has ruined the game, and I'd tell you what it made me do, but the last time I did they literally removed the post because of a sentence among 6 paragraphs made them think it was a 'farewell' post. Ridiculous.