Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?

Desiato · July 16

No

karthrag_inak wrote: »

The operative word being 'just', of course. The term 'yesman', which is insulting, infers someone who agrees -only- to agree, regardless of topic or personal opinion. Khajiit does, in fact, love the new system on the strength of its own merits and his own experiences. That being said, khajiit is also open to consider other opinions, and if these opinions should have merit, khajiit would reconsider.

@karthrag_inak

I am DEEPLY sorry. I badly misunderstood at least two things I read this morning and your post was one of them. I have no idea how I so badly screwed up. I can only hope coffee fixes whatever is currently broken.

karthrag_inak · July 16

No

Desiato wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

The operative word being 'just', of course. The term 'yesman', which is insulting, infers someone who agrees -only- to agree, regardless of topic or personal opinion. Khajiit does, in fact, love the new system on the strength of its own merits and his own experiences. That being said, khajiit is also open to consider other opinions, and if these opinions should have merit, khajiit would reconsider.

@karthrag_inak

I am DEEPLY sorry. I badly misunderstood at least two things I read this morning and your post was one of them. I have no idea how I so badly screwed up.

Er ok. Khajiit didn't think it was so bad, but thanks!

francesinhalover · July 16

No

i like my jabs on necromancer thank you.

Am i supposed to go back to the weird skull when i can do dmg to armies of enemies with my beautifull jabs?

Elvenheart · July 16

No

francesinhalover wrote: »

i like my jabs on necromancer thank you.

Am i supposed to go back to the weird skull when i can do dmg to armies of enemies with my beautifull jabs?

What a great idea! Other than the Elementalist I built from the ground up as a brand new character, I’ve been trying to figure out what I would like to do to my existing characters and so far I haven’t been able to really think of anything. I might just give this a try, especially since we have a blue jabs now! Which line did you swap out?

Desiato · July 16

No

Elvenheart wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

i like my jabs on necromancer thank you.

Am i supposed to go back to the weird skull when i can do dmg to armies of enemies with my beautifull jabs?

What a great idea! Other than the Elementalist I built from the ground up as a brand new character, I’ve been trying to figure out what I would like to do to my existing characters and so far I haven’t been able to really think of anything. I might just give this a try, especially since we have a blue jabs now! Which line did you swap out?

I've really enjoyed just making random combinations and trying to find ways to make them work and I've surprised myself by what I've come up with in some cases. It only costs 1500 gold to respec, so why just just experiment?

As I've posted before, the two most important bases to cover in terms of dps are major savagery/prophecy and major brutality/sorcery (covered by jabs) -- and scribing can help with that. If those are accounted for, it's hard to go wrong in terms of dps for content below vet trials.

Puncturing sweep is also pretty op for solo content.

Radiate77 · July 16

No

francesinhalover wrote: »

i like my jabs on necromancer thank you.

Am i supposed to go back to the weird skull when i can do dmg to armies of enemies with my beautifull jabs?

If you throw Restoring Light on, you can use Repentance on your skeletal minions. It’s a neat throwback interaction to when you could use it on your minions.

mrreow · July 16

Yes

If something shouldn’t be added in the way it was added then I suppose the answer is Yes

It’s not about balance though. Balance is nice but classes are just vital to mmos for many reasons

Like for example seeing who the heck you actually fight against in pvp so you know what to expect and how to counter them creating whole basis of skill

Caligamy_ESO · July 17

No

It seems like they could just add some kind of a passive bonus for having all 3 of your classes original skills lines active. Nothing too immense mind you.. but it could even be a way of adding back in class identity, something that's been gradually vanishing from the game with every update.

BXR_Lonestar · July 17

Yes

Desiato wrote: »

@BXR_Lonestar

So you're playing the game according to the rules you want instead of its actual rules, so of course it's not resulting in improvements.

There's really not a lot a huge amount of trial and error involved to get basic improvements. I seem to recall Skinny Cheeks highlighted quite a few HA builds.

I have all the meta stuff, if I want to copy someones build I can do that easily. But I thought the whole point of having subclassing was that it was going to allow you to make all different kinds of creative builds that should be more functional now that you can drop one or more useless skill lines for your build and select other skill lines that should be more in line with what you want your build to do. But its not that simple, and there actually IS a huge amount of trial and error when you aren't copying what someone else has already done.

Beyond that, the grind to level up skill lines I've already leveled up on other characters is a barrier to going out and experimenting with your build. This is especially difficult when you play as a support (tank or healer), which is my main role.

Overall, my point is that this stuff is half-baked and I'd prefer if they just roll the changes back and focus on making GOOD changes to improve each class. To me, the current state of the game says "We have no vision for this game so we're just going to try something to generate excitement."

Oceanchanter · July 17

No

After playing MMOs for 20 years, I see all calls for balance as "some combination of gear + class + skills feels too OP to play against in PvP".

I don't like it either, but there always will be some exploit that will ruin fun for everyone on the same bandwagon and torment for those who never hopped on to begin with.

I find the sole idea of rolling back a major update lots of people enjoy - like me in PvE - just because some combinations feel unbalanced ridiculous.

And yes, I was spawnkilled several times by a Nightblade with Sorc's teleport as well.
Or DragonTemplar hybrid that is literally unkillable.

It's not fun, but it is what it is.

Tyralbin · July 17

No

I don't like housing or ToT.

But, I would never ask them to be removed because some do like them.

I like subclassing but can understand others don't.

Also, if they hadn't balanced the classes in the time they had before removing subclassing won't make one bit of a difference.

Arrodisia · July 17

Yes

I meant to click on NO but I really mean no and other together.

Remove subclassing? It's not necessary. They can make it as viable as any other ability, not more powerful.

I can understand some players don't want to let the fotm setup go. They literally just invested in it, but the reality is the classes weren't close enough to each other to have had this thrown on top of it.

I would only suggest some better balancing between class abilities specifically taking into consideration how and why scribing better synergises with certain classes and not others so that the ones not receiving this same boost in efficiency get their portions of benefit as well.

So, if classes were balanced first in a more fine tuned way, the impact of scribing would've been a lot easier to calculate and balance as well. With classes balanced and then scribing, the devs would have the ability to better control power creep, as well as any future imbalances stemming from new abilities, sets, systems,and so on.

BasP · July 17

Elvenheart wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

i like my jabs on necromancer thank you.

Am i supposed to go back to the weird skull when i can do dmg to armies of enemies with my beautifull jabs?

What a great idea! Other than the Elementalist I built from the ground up as a brand new character, I’ve been trying to figure out what I would like to do to my existing characters and so far I haven’t been able to really think of anything. I might just give this a try, especially since we have a blue jabs now! Which line did you swap out?

You could check out this build from Skinny Cheeks with the Assassination, Aedric Spear and Grave Lord skill lines for some more inspiration - it also uses Jabs.

Cooperharley · July 17

No

Tyralbin wrote: »

I don't like housing or ToT.

But, I would never ask them to be removed because some do like them.

I like subclassing but can understand others don't.

Also, if they hadn't balanced the classes in the time they had before removing subclassing won't make one bit of a difference.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Big fan of subclassing myself. It was introduced in a very unbalanced, unfinished state, but I think it’ll be great down the line.

Oliviander · July 17

No

They shouldn't have introduced classes in the first time.
No classes no balance issues !
So subclassing is at least a step in the right direction.
I would drop classes completely - just pick a max. of any 3 Class skillines
theis limitation would be just for the passives.

Iriidius · July 17

Yes

Tyralbin wrote: »

I don't like housing or ToT.

But, I would never ask them to be removed because some do like them.

I like subclassing but can understand others don't.

Also, if they hadn't balanced the classes in the time they had before removing subclassing won't make one bit of a difference.

If you don‘t like housing or ToT you can just notplay housing or ToT.
If you don‘t like subclassing while you can decide to stay pureclass yourself you will still have to fight subclassed builds outperforming pureclass builds in PvP, compete against subclass reaching scores unreachable for pure classes on arena/trial score boards and have to reach a dps requirement for guilds calculated with subclassing in mind if you do that kind of content so you cant play like it doesnt exist.

Lucasalex92 · July 17

Yes

instead of subclassing there should be fair balancing, and then consider borrowind 1 or two skills and 1 passive from other classes ... we would avoud all the nerf

francesinhalover · July 18

No

Elvenheart wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

i like my jabs on necromancer thank you.

Am i supposed to go back to the weird skull when i can do dmg to armies of enemies with my beautifull jabs?

What a great idea! Other than the Elementalist I built from the ground up as a brand new character, I’ve been trying to figure out what I would like to do to my existing characters and so far I haven’t been able to really think of anything. I might just give this a try, especially since we have a blue jabs now! Which line did you swap out?

Kept gravelord
Added aedric spear
Animal companions. I think the Gray bear looks cool with necro. Lots of usefull skills. If i Change my mind Ill add ardent flame/daedric summoning instead.

I use shattering? knife scrib skill to increase my martial dmg than use jabs, works well.
The dmg actually surprised me.

SpaceElf · July 18

No

No. I really like the subclassing. I never relished the idea of leveling up a whole new character just to experience what it's like to be a different class to it's fullest. My time is finite. I'm having a lot of fun with it, and while I do think that some skill lines need fixing in some basic class builds (dark magic I'm looking at you), I don't think that subclassing is intended to be the fix.

Sorc- kept Storm calling and daedric summoning, but grabbed assassin. Hella fun.

silky_soft · July 18

Yes

Probably one of the highest answered polls in recent times. Only 55% positive towards subclassing. That's pretty bad just like theplayer retention. You can see it in the steam player numbers.

Radiate77 · July 18

No

silky_soft wrote: »

Probably one of the highest answered polls in recent times. Only 55% positive towards subclassing. That's pretty bad just like theplayer retention. You can see it in the steam player numbers.

55% on the forums, and Steam has never been a good metric. There are now three different ways to play the game on PC, including Epic Games and the actual Launcher for ESO.

SpaceElf · July 18

No

silky_soft wrote: »

Probably one of the highest answered polls in recent times. Only 55% positive towards subclassing. That's pretty bad just like theplayer retention. You can see it in the steam player numbers.

55% is a strong majority, my dude. Still, a poll issued here means very little as we don't know the percentage of active players who use this place, not to mention the chance they'd even see it or bother answering it if they did. Numbers on Steam will never offer much insight as there are multiple ways to play ESO outside of that platform.

For instance, I have Steam, but I don't have ESO on Steam and use the launcher.

I understand there are some very vocal people who don't like subclassing - but even here, where they are the loudest, a poll with a high response is still giving it a majority approval.

preevious · July 18

Other

Every post asking for a rollback shows a poor understanding of how developpement works.
I can garantee you that no one, even those who vote yes, would be happy with a rollback.

StihlReign · July 18

Yes

preevious wrote: »

Every post asking for a rollback shows a poor understanding of how developpement works.
I can garantee you that no one, even those who vote yes, would be happy with a rollback.

Zos worked on these changes for months, had a ton of meetings, bug fixes, coding, dedicated design teams etc etc concept planning, build, design, test (this is us), marketing teams, etc... we get a look for a few minutes before they push it live?

Subclassing feels like a poorly implemented and designed system that will require an escalating system of nerfs to base classes until ESOs combat is a watered down shell of it's former self. 1 class to rule them all. Fomo Carebearus.

What if the system is scrapped/reverted, the classes assigned to responsible teams and we ask the question - Why can't a team balance the assigned class for tanking, dps, and healing equal in power, utility and ability to the other team's classes and maintain it's unique flavor.

Every class, every person/character, trying to be and do everything everyone else is doing is bananas and wrecking the game. Everyone shouldn't be able to solo everything. ZOS needs to take a stance and let players know some things will require
help. Real life comes to an MMO yay. Make achievements worth something...make your class, your skills and your gameplay worth something.

If Zos would just complete hybridization, fix and tune scribing, and bring the underperforming/overperforming skills into line, skill crafting would be great, but armor set bloat and super-group buffing should probably come before that...sub-classing seems to be out of step at the moment. But I guess that moment was months ago. So here we are. yay

cmetzger93 · July 18

No

No, I love it. Yes, I'm being serious.

I do wish you could pick more than 2 lines from another class and you could fully drop your "main" class.

magnusthorek · July 18

Other

Dimorphos · July 18

No

100% vote for NO. Sub-classing is a great tool to let us players decide what we want to be. It adds so much possibilities for different combinations so we do not need new classes that much any more when we can create our own.

The only thing there is to do concerning sub-classing is balancing things so that players can still choose to be class focused and be on the same level with sub-classing people or at least close. We can never have these games in a way that everything would always be in perfect balance it is impossible. Strange that people still always whine about it.

Edit: I think these kind of major changes like sub-classing are what will keep ESO feeling fresh game and keep it appealing. There are newer mmo's coming out soon like Ashes of creation and if ESO wishes to remain active big mmo title we need development. I was amazed that they had guts to go for something this big of a change and I am very happy they did it. It shows that they have the will and focus to improve and continue working with ESO for years to come.

cyclonus11 · July 18

No

No. I've been leveling skills since subclassing launched and I'm having fun doing it. Not interested in having that erased.

If this were to happen, I'd cancel my sub immediately.

Wup_sa · July 18

Yes

It won't happen, even when it should or at the very least it should be disabled in PvP. So far it has brought much more harm than good in that environment and ZOS will not be able to balance it.

DoofusMax · July 19

No

ZOS has never taken back a game system after implementation. They have been known to buff/nerf/tweak them after introduction, but have never removed them. A rollback isn't going to happen and the whole idea of "we don't take stuff back (unless bunches of folks gripe about it)" is patently absurd. On my end and except for one character who is finishing up the last couple levels of one subclassed skill, all of my characters have reverted back to pure-class builds and I don't see that changing. I'm OK with having the flexibility to subclass if I want, but the existence of subclassing doesn't bother me in the slightest.