User interface and quality of life problems! ESO 2.0 is good... let's make it better.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

Just had the topic of the UI and game info come up in a guild chat... lengthy bit of a conversation and everyone reached the general consensus that the current interface is basically worthless for people who actually play the game instead of sit in a town admiring the wallpaper. I think one guy summed it up best when he said this near the end:

(a little profanity removed =P)
"No wonder there's so much silly info on the forums. Sad truth is THIS IS AN MMO... there's dungeons and mechanics and skills and %s and stuff. We need some of this "darned" info to know. Skyrim was so "darned" broken, this game's not far behind on combat."

I linked the thread after that, and a few minutes later someone else said "Still no word from Zenimax? Freaking sad."

Valymer · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

"No wonder there's so much silly info on the forums. Sad truth is THIS IS AN MMO... there's dungeons and mechanics and skills and %s and stuff. We need some of this "darned" info to know. Skyrim was so "darned" broken, this game's not far behind on combat."

The bolded part is what you are going to have to convince people of to see real positive change in this game.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

Valymer wrote: »

show previous quotes

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

"No wonder there's so much silly info on the forums. Sad truth is THIS IS AN MMO... there's dungeons and mechanics and skills and %s and stuff. We need some of this "darned" info to know. Skyrim was so "darned" broken, this game's not far behind on combat."

The bolded part is what you are going to have to convince people of to see real positive change in this game.

I'm not sure how this can be misunderstood by anyone. Elder Scrolls Online has always been advertised as an MMORPG set in the elder scrolls lore. It never has been advertised as a "play with two friends online!" title, but rather touted for having a persistent MMO world with hundreds of players warring in Cyrodiil for the seat of the Ruby Crown, fighting to save the world alongside others in a grand story of the pending end of the world by Molag Bal, with a flourishing economy and great social features including 500-account guilds, contacts, status settings while online, etc. Even by the loosest definition, an MMO is a game with massively multiplayer numbers of people connecting into the same game.

I mean, really.... even back in interviews in 2012 it was being called an MMORPG with the devs

.

MercyKilling · May 2015

Just because the game is an MMO does not make the things put forward here a "requirement". I've been playing video games since Pong...and have at least two decades of online multiplayer gaming under my belt....and I've never used an add on that did anything other than provide a biography/descriptive text field so other players could read a bit about my characters.

Why? Because by the time I got to "end game" level...I knew my characters. I knew what worked for my particular play style and what didn't. Did that boss go down quickly? Then my dps is good. Did it take a bit of time? Then I need to up my game and try other tactics.

I always work within the game's limitations...and it worked for me just fine. I never got refused for raiding. Hells, it got to a point where I had to turn down people's invitations because I just lost interest in raiding in general. Games became un-fun to play because I was so worried about "being effective" or "being competitive".

TL: DR of it all is.....these things really ARE NOT necessary for the game. They ARE, however very convenient.

LtCrunch · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Just had the topic of the UI and game info come up in a guild chat... lengthy bit of a conversation and everyone reached the general consensus that the current interface is basically worthless for people who actually play the game instead of sit in a town admiring the wallpaper. I think one guy summed it up best when he said this near the end:

(a little profanity removed =P)
"No wonder there's so much silly info on the forums. Sad truth is THIS IS AN MMO... there's dungeons and mechanics and skills and %s and stuff. We need some of this "darned" info to know. Skyrim was so "darned" broken, this game's not far behind on combat."

I linked the thread after that, and a few minutes later someone else said "Still no word from Zenimax? Freaking sad."

Hyperbole will not win people over to your side. Your posts are mostly well thought out, informative and refrain from that type of nonsense. Don't let frustration lead to you undermining your own cause.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

MercyKilling wrote: »

Just because the game is an MMO does not make the things put forward here a "requirement". I've been playing video games since Pong...and have at least two decades of online multiplayer gaming under my belt....and I've never used an add on that did anything other than provide a biography/descriptive text field so other players could read a bit about my characters.

Why? Because by the time I got to "end game" level...I knew my characters. I knew what worked for my particular play style and what didn't. Did that boss go down quickly? Then my dps is good. Did it take a bit of time? Then I need to up my game and try other tactics.

I always work within the game's limitations...and it worked for me just fine. I never got refused for raiding. Hells, it got to a point where I had to turn down people's invitations because I just lost interest in raiding in general. Games became un-fun to play because I was so worried about "being effective" or "being competitive".

TL: DR of it all is.....these things really ARE NOT necessary for the game. They ARE, however very convenient.

Already been covered

. Many of us have played games for decades, that's nothing special

. You can enjoy a game without having an interface, no one's arguing that. Heck, you can kill a lot of the stuff in the game without much info. Although you'll get destroyed by anyone who does know it in PVP and trying to do things like Sanctum Ophidia/Hardmode or Veteran DSA at higher levels, you can play it in a more casual, relaxed way and still have fun. However, the game suffers for it immensely in gameplay and usability, and in most cases you quite literally cannot see what's happening or happened with the default user interface and is a lot less fun for most people.

Convenience does not have anything to do with it... by saying "convenience" you imply that missing basics like a "reply to mail" button is all that's wrong, or another missing basic that's a hassle like not being able to see just alchemy materials in your bags, instead of every last single trade skill item you possess lumped into one long, unorganized list.

It's cludgy, gives little to nothing in terms of gameplay info, lacks basically every basic quality of life or gameplay function/information/indicator you can think of, and is extremely unintuitive. See that monster you just cast 4 flame attacks on? Which damage over time effect wore off, and how many are remaining that you hit them with? Beats me, you can't tell since they all show the same flame animation on the enemy

. Does it matter to you? No? Then just disable the indicators if you don't care, but don't complain that because most players like stuff you don't, they shouldn't be allowed to have it or enjoy it.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

Brandalf wrote: »

show previous quotes

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Just had the topic of the UI and game info come up in a guild chat... lengthy bit of a conversation and everyone reached the general consensus that the current interface is basically worthless for people who actually play the game instead of sit in a town admiring the wallpaper. I think one guy summed it up best when he said this near the end:

(a little profanity removed =P)
"No wonder there's so much silly info on the forums. Sad truth is THIS IS AN MMO... there's dungeons and mechanics and skills and %s and stuff. We need some of this "darned" info to know. Skyrim was so "darned" broken, this game's not far behind on combat."

I linked the thread after that, and a few minutes later someone else said "Still no word from Zenimax? Freaking sad."

Hyperbole will not win people over to your side. Your posts are mostly well thought out, informative and refrain from that type of nonsense. Don't let frustration lead to you undermining your own cause.

Those were actual quotes from my chat log, editing out a couple of swears , not my writing.

If you were referring to my quote's bolded part, it objectively is absolutely true (I'll provide proof of that further in this post), and subjectively I wouldn't even say it shows you anything useful in my opinion. I honestly don't know how else to phrase it as far as playing the game versus simply walking around and enjoying the environment, however. The default interface in ESO shows you just shy of nothing: you get oddly-styled collapsing resource bars including health but with no text labels and very large, non-granular steps as they deplete towards the middle instead of just depleting; you get an enemy health bar that does the same; the health bars expand if it has a health buff or shows subtle cracks if they're debuffed (but doesn't tell you in any way with what), showing simple arrows pointing towards the middle of the bar if they have a damage over time effect on them regardless of what (and no way to know what it is), and that's about it. The in-world animations are somewhat feasible in solo questing some of the time to see if an enemy got hit or if they're stunned with the little dizzy wisp above their heads, but even there a lot of fights show enough spell effects going on to make it impractical at absolute best to see them if you're looking specifically for them.

By contrast, most RPG titles (and I'm not even talking about MMORPG ones, but just roleplaying games) provide you basic combat information like:

-How much health you have (percentage, number, or both)
-How much "mana" or other combat resources you have (percentage, number, or both)
-Icons to show what debuffs, buffs, boons or curses, and damage or healing effects are active on you and your target(s), as well as how long is left on them (usually a preference allows for either a timer in seconds, or a depleting border or other intuitive visual indicator to show it's running down).
-A way to track multiple quests or objectives on-screen instead of having to stop what you're doing to open a journal and paw through it.
-A mini map or radar type display on the HUD so you can see what direction you're facing easily in absolutes, the nearby terrain, and icons for things like weapons vendors or quest objectives.
-A combat log to review what happened during a fight, and if desired watch it while playing too.
-A way to target friendlies for your effects, instead of the game determining for you whether your heal hits you, your friend, or some random guy who happened to walk by while you were fighting and didn't even need healing if you had wanted to heal him rather than yourself.
-Nametags, and in online games, guild tags as well (also called "nameplates").

Really, the list can go on for awhile with things like those that simply make the games enjoyable to play and generally can simply be toggled off for people who don't like to use them. Can you walk around the game world and kill stuff without them? Sure, I can too. It's nowhere near as fun, though, and doesn't let you actually see the gameplay. The same's true in most games, really: you can romp around goofing off and beat a lot of stuff, even... but if you plan to spend long playing, you're going to want to learn some of the rules of said game.

Valymer · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

show previous quotes

Valymer wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

"No wonder there's so much silly info on the forums. Sad truth is THIS IS AN MMO... there's dungeons and mechanics and skills and %s and stuff. We need some of this "darned" info to know. Skyrim was so "darned" broken, this game's not far behind on combat."

The bolded part is what you are going to have to convince people of to see real positive change in this game.

I'm not sure how this can be misunderstood by anyone. Elder Scrolls Online has always been advertised as an MMORPG set in the elder scrolls lore. It never has been advertised as a "play with two friends online!" title, but rather touted for having a persistent MMO world with hundreds of players warring in Cyrodiil for the seat of the Ruby Crown, fighting to save the world alongside others in a grand story of the pending end of the world by Molag Bal, with a flourishing economy and great social features including 500-account guilds, contacts, status settings while online, etc. Even by the loosest definition, an MMO is a game with massively multiplayer numbers of people connecting into the same game.

I mean, really.... even back in interviews in 2012 it was being called an MMORPG with the devs .

Yet isn't it amazing how so many people still think they are playing Elder Scrolls 6.

A very large number of players in this game have never played an MMORPG before. They don't understand that ESO is missing some very basic functional things, particularly when it comes to the UI.

Skyrim's UI was horrible (although still a great game), but it wasn't an MMO. So it didn't matter so much in the end.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

Valymer wrote: »

show previous quotes

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

"No wonder there's so much silly info on the forums. Sad truth is THIS IS AN MMO... there's dungeons and mechanics and skills and %s and stuff. We need some of this "darned" info to know. Skyrim was so "darned" broken, this game's not far behind on combat."

The bolded part is what you are going to have to convince people of to see real positive change in this game.

I'm not sure how this can be misunderstood by anyone. Elder Scrolls Online has always been advertised as an MMORPG set in the elder scrolls lore. It never has been advertised as a "play with two friends online!" title, but rather touted for having a persistent MMO world with hundreds of players warring in Cyrodiil for the seat of the Ruby Crown, fighting to save the world alongside others in a grand story of the pending end of the world by Molag Bal, with a flourishing economy and great social features including 500-account guilds, contacts, status settings while online, etc. Even by the loosest definition, an MMO is a game with massively multiplayer numbers of people connecting into the same game.

I mean, really.... even back in interviews in 2012 it was being called an MMORPG with the devs .
Spoiler

Yet isn't it amazing how so many people still think they are playing Elder Scrolls 6.

A very large number of players in this game have never played an MMORPG before. They don't understand that ESO is missing some very basic functional things, particularly when it comes to the UI.

Skyrim's UI was horrible (although still a great game), but it wasn't an MMO. So it didn't matter so much in the end.

Yep... a poor UI is easier to forgive in a single-player game, for sure.

Lykaion_Icarus · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Just to illustrate what I said above, here's a new character I gave a little gold to expand his packs with, and then went out to adventure in the world with, zero addons installed... I enabled all of the information the game allows for with its stock functionality. This is to see what a new player might notice when starting out in Elder Scrolls Online and fighting his first few enemies. If the text is too small, click the link to see the picture at full size .

Link: http://i.imgur.com/XQITCGe.jpg
1. Hello, world!

Link: http://i.imgur.com/jwxan03.jpg
2. How strong am I?

Link: http://i.imgur.com/v6eAa4Q.jpg
3. What's my gear doing? My inventory?

Link: http://i.imgur.com/SpRskSG.jpg
4. Fight! Fight! Wait, what's even going on here?

Link: http://i.imgur.com/17fmYDp.jpg
5. Uh... I thought he was supposed to be dead.

Link: http://i.imgur.com/hVNCJSs.jpg
6. Victory! What did I get?

I realize this is a really long quote; but without a doubt these images highlight all of my critiques with the current state of the UI. I'm all for immersion in an MMO, but there are ways to creatively design an MMO that is detailed while still being minimal. A phrase I tend to use is "simple, but elegant." Many of the features in the least could be optional and enabled through in-game settings so that players who want detailed information can have it, while those who don't can leave it turned off. As a new player I've spent some time figuring out all the settings and finally found some Add-Ons to help me out. But initially I was lost as to how to navigate some of the UI as information is buried and not readily available. I happily enabled player health bars so I could figure out who is an NPC vs. real-game player. Furthermore nameplates would be much appreciated for me, although I can understand why many would suggest that it breaks immersion. I find it cumbersome trying to interact with other players when you have to be immediately next to them to gain information and keep your cursor persistently hovering over them. It's not very practical.

One question I do have. Is there any way to link players' character names in chat? When forming groups it was not user friendly to be immediately next to an individual in order to invite them (naturally you could use chat commands and then spell out the name for invites, but for longer or character complex names this isn't very feasible). Why can't we CTRL+click (or link) a character's name to have it generated in chat for sharing with others for group invitations and etc? That combined with the fact that character names and the chat text are the same color does not help to distinguish differences in information when browsing through the chat. Just a few minor tweaks in the system could make the utility go a long way.

Anyways thanks to the OP for taking the time to form these images which show some aspects which I believe can be improved in the game.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

Lykaion_Icarus wrote: »

show previous quotes

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Just to illustrate what I said above, here's a new character I gave a little gold to expand his packs with, and then went out to adventure in the world with, zero addons installed... I enabled all of the information the game allows for with its stock functionality. This is to see what a new player might notice when starting out in Elder Scrolls Online and fighting his first few enemies. If the text is too small, click the link to see the picture at full size .
Spoiler
Link: http://i.imgur.com/XQITCGe.jpg
1. Hello, world!

Link: http://i.imgur.com/jwxan03.jpg
2. How strong am I?

Link: http://i.imgur.com/v6eAa4Q.jpg
3. What's my gear doing? My inventory?

Link: http://i.imgur.com/SpRskSG.jpg
4. Fight! Fight! Wait, what's even going on here?

Link: http://i.imgur.com/17fmYDp.jpg
5. Uh... I thought he was supposed to be dead.

Link: http://i.imgur.com/hVNCJSs.jpg
6. Victory! What did I get?

I realize this is a really long quote; but without a doubt these images highlight all of my critiques with the current state of the UI. I'm all for immersion in an MMO, but there are ways to creatively design an MMO that is detailed while still being minimal. A phrase I tend to use is "simple, but elegant." Many of the features in the least could be optional and enabled through in-game settings so that players who want detailed information can have it, while those who don't can leave it turned off. As a new player I've spent some time figuring out all the settings and finally found some Add-Ons to help me out. But initially I was lost as to how to navigate some of the UI as information is buried and not readily available. I happily enabled player health bars so I could figure out who is an NPC vs. real-game player. Furthermore nameplates would be much appreciated for me, although I can understand why many would suggest that it breaks immersion. I find it cumbersome trying to interact with other players when you have to be immediately next to them to gain information and keep your cursor persistently hovering over them. It's not very practical.

One question I do have. Is there any way to link players' character names in chat? When forming groups it was not user friendly to be immediately next to an individual in order to invite them (naturally you could use chat commands and then spell out the name for invites, but for longer or character complex names this isn't very feasible). Why can't we CTRL+click (or link) a character's name to have it generated in chat for sharing with others for group invitations and etc? That combined with the fact that character names and the chat text are the same color does not help to distinguish differences in information when browsing through the chat. Just a few minor tweaks in the system could make the utility go a long way.

Anyways thanks to the OP for taking the time to form these images which show some aspects which I believe can be improved in the game.

Hi @Lykaion_Icarus ! Welcome to ESO, first off!

It's a fun game, it just could be more fun in my opinion with some of these things fixed. Like you found with some of the other stuff that's buried but can be worked around a little, there is a chat command for inviting players like this:

/invite @Attorneyatlawl

Or, you can invite by character name, such as...

/invite Please Don't Nerf Me

But as you said, it's unwieldy to type out long names like that rapidly to invite multiple people, to say the least. So if you're not the group leader and are asked to invite someone, they need to write out the name, and then you need to re-write the name inside the invite command... even if they're near you, it takes more time to find where they are with no nameplates available than to type it out, since there's no way to quickly locate them amongst 5-10 other people nearby.

As another one of these Quality of Life/UI tweaks they could make, if you want to message someone by account name, the game automatically turns it into a whisper after continuing your /whisper @Attorneyatlawl, but if you try messaging someone's character name, you have to type a comma after finishing their name (another thing the game has no indication of

) to get it to understand that you're at the end of writing the character name to send to and turn it into a whisper. Example:

/whisper Attorneyatlawl Hey man, what's up? (ENTER)

vs.

/whisper Please Don't Nerf Me, Hey man, what's up? (ENTER)

That comma isn't a typo, and if you don't use it, the whisper doesn't even send. And with character/account names being used inconsistently between chat channels, and the colors being the same for the message's sender and the actual message, it's harder to just scan through chat history quickly. Thanks for the comments on the thread!

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

Saw @ZOS_AmeliaR respond to a console UI question earlier today... any chance we can get some thoughts on our thoughts in this thread

?

ElfFromSpace · May 2015

These are definitely good suggestions. Although Guild Tabards can help show identity, they don't have names on them so they only help me see people in my own guild or guilds I know well. Most games I've played in the past have watched to see what addons are most commonly installed and then put those features into the game. It seems like simple laziness that ESO has not done this. Come on.. Roomba has been poorly helping with guild banks for over a year now!

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

Thanks @ElfFromSpace for the remarks

. Others I have seen being asked about consistently in-game are guild store UI improvements (save the last search, text search and better filters, not needing to go through pages with a delay to check for items, etc.). I'm hoping @ZOS_JasonLeavey can pass this thread along for the ESO Live episode today

.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

I saw a very interesting thread that was well thought out by another poster today...

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/169847/the-importance-of-elements-or-why-pokemon-is-fun-and-eso-isnt

In it, the author @Faulgor talks about adding elemental weaknesses and more depth to combat with resistances and secondary effects. He wrote a very detailed feedback suggestion and it was a very enjoyable read. The relevance here? There already are! And yet because of the lacks and issues with the user interface, no one generally knows of them, let alone specifics. A respondent,
@evenfallacy is, in fact, correct in replying there are effects but they aren't very visible and he thinks they are too ineffective because he doesn't notice them doing anything... well, if you've followed this thread, you probably know why

.

There are some elemental and damage type weakness in the game already, but while they are not huge they are effective to an extent in combat to where it's almost entirely ignorable and generally is ignored because the user interface gives you no way to tell what is happening or not, while third party addons are able to help a bit but not a ton due to the limitations imposed by ZOS. ESO has a lot of hidden systems you would have absolutely zero clue existed even with addons if you weren't testing extremely granularly and aware of some of them from beta testing when they briefly had a combat log enabled as an optional chat tab.

Poison does a dot and small heal debuff, while disease does a larger heal debuff. Shock enchants Concuss, for a 12% damage debuff by the affected target for 5 seconds. Ice snares. Shock does a miniature sorcerer like execute if it procs but only if it's on a target under 20% health, occasionally when it concusses an enemy. Fire burns, and against undead excluding skeletons, trolls, and furred animals/wildlife has an approximately 20% chance of exploding, stunning the enemy and dealing a large instant flame damage hit.

Believe it or not, there is even a system called Finesse, and despite public statements it was scrapped, it indeed remains in game to this very day, affecting drop rates and XP gains when fighting monsters in one to four man groups (the trials have enough required hits and mechanics you won't see any bonus, however, and vdsa gives items in a fixed way from chests rather than the monsters). The XP bonus can boost your gains by over 25% and is based on blocking power attacks, interrupting casters, avoiding any special attacks like aoe, and the damage you take, killing quickly to aid this.

So, how would you learn this without the handful of people even aware these mechanics exist out of thousands of beta testers, with virtually no live server theorycrafters having discovered them to this day? How would you track your buffs or extra damage? How would you even know to look?

Now add in the rarely known to most people, but testable mechanics that a smart theorycrafter or player can find out if they toy with addons enough and observe carefully, along with other much needed quality of life refinements to the user interface. That is why this thread exists. It isn't some oft claimed theory of "Oh, wow players want ESO to be like wow." It's because I want to have the gameplay systems that already exist in ESO be understandable and the user interface simply does not currently fulfill the role of presenting nformarion to players very well at all, while being fairly unpleasant to use for inventory management, trade, and general guild, party, and social tools such as guild name representation.

(Puts down his keyboard.)

idk · May 2015

Much of what the op wants can be obtained via add-ons. As for the rest of having it added into the game I suggest looking at the history and you will see THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!

If you look at the history from alpha/beta testing you'd see they had a full feature UI and decided TO TAKE IT ALL OUT because this is TES and we have a fairly normal TES UI.

There was even heated debate concerning what could be seen through thr API which some saying LEARN TO PLAY vs using all that added info and others saying GIVE ME A SCREEN OF NUMBERS and all this other information.

In the end the developers said very clearly and strong NO WAY.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Much of what the op wants can be obtained via add-ons. As for the rest of having it added into the game I suggest looking at the history and you will see THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!

If you look at the history from alpha/beta testing you'd see they had a full feature UI and decided TO TAKE IT ALL OUT because this is TES and we have a fairly normal TES UI.

There was even heated debate concerning what could be seen through thr API which some saying LEARN TO PLAY vs using all that added info and others saying GIVE ME A SCREEN OF NUMBERS and all this other information.

In the end the developers said very clearly and strong NO WAY.

That's not quite how it happened, @Giles.floydub17_ESO, in actuality. Let's set the record straight here with a history of the game's beta testing & development in regards to camera and User Interface (UI) issues in response to "community" feedback:

-In the beginning, there were toggleable options, for your own preference, to enable or disable overhead nameplates as well as guild nameplate tags optionally (additionally you had toggles for them being on at all, enabled on players from your faction, enabled on guildmates, enabled on enemies, enabled on enemy players, etc., everything you'd need to allow for basic gameplay and community in an online game), scrolling combat text, a combat log in a chat box tab including damage sources for enemies attacking you, and debuffs, as well as some other accomodations like not having the chatbox fade away along with its text/messages when inactive. You additionally could enable labels on resource bars like health and magicka so you could tell how much you had left.

-There was no 1st-person view, but people complained vociferously and it got added.

-Then non-MMORPG, single-player fans of Elder Scrolls lore came and complained loudly that they wanted everything not in the newest Skyrim single-player game taken out because they didn't want to be "forced" (quote-unquote, as there's no such thing) to toggle options on or off in the settings window because some random group they run into might ask them to in order to play with them (in which case you could simply just not group with them).

-ZOS, in response, began stripping some features like a minimap (how is it more immersive, exactly, to cover your entire screen in a giant map and be unable to see the game world constantly when needing to navigate, I to this day do not know), as people who didn't research the game being an MMORPG and claimed they would not play if it wasn't all removed. Nameplates were disabled with a statement being made that they would return in an improved form, which to date has not happened.

Mind you, things like the minimap and buff/debuff icons & indicators even were stock options in the UI in the previous Elder Scrolls games such as Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, but a vocal campaign insisted it would not work, enough so that they decided to change course to hopefully placate the bad press from the complaints and not damage sales. Understandable enough, it is a business after all .

- Then, loud complaints came in about how the first-person view didn't have good enough options and looked poorly animated (hypocritically, and when 3rd-person camera view issues were mentioned such as Field of View (FOV), zoom distance, and centering the camera, they were dismissed as unimportant by the same people begging for first-person improvements to that mode's FOV because "I don't use 3rd-person anyway"), and ZOS had a big to-do announcing how they were improving it in response to public feedback.

-Over the next several patches from October through March, more and more User Interface options were removed, and many of the game's most loyal supporters and guilds at that time such as @Atropos from Entropy Rising, @Wykkyd from Mostly Harmless (myself, @Attorneyatlawl from the same), @Izkimar from Best In Slot, amongst many others such as @Erlex, wrote a good deal about how this was hurting the game both from a gameplay standpoint and that it might damage its chances of subscription success once it launched as most people, having read about what the game was before buying it, would see it was an MMORPG and expect it to have basic accomodations like the minimap, a combat log, and health bar text, etc., or being able to see what their skills could morph into once they leveled them. Issues such as addon authors quitting the game over time, hassles with keeping addons up-to-date, and the API (interface defining what can be done with addons by their authors, which originally allowed for cast bars if wanted, as well as buff timers once the stock options were removed, as well as seeing what hit you in a combat log addon). Some supported the idea of them being removed and never being brought back, asking that this be made into a clear statement officially, and others had more mixed viewpoints at that point in time such as @IcyDeadPeople and @Ysne58, who since I believe have become more amiable towards these kinds of options being re-implemented when I have talked with them more recently.

Finally, there was a very.... we'll term it "lively", to be polite, debate in the closed beta community as to whether we should be able to see enemies' magicka and stamina with addons while targeting them. Contrary to many others, I actually did argue for that specific functionality to be disabled, as I felt it crossed to being "too much" information about your opponents' cards to play when fighting them.

-During this testing period, feedback and questions were made as to whether the Minimap would be returning as the ability to enable the older stock one was removed. @ZOS_GinaBruno clarified a relatively short time later that Zenimax's intention for the launch of The Elder Scrolls Online was to support the compass system for navigation and that it was unlikely to come back before then.

-A week or two before launch, @ZOS_PaulSage finally broke the silence and provided an official statement about their intentions for how the API would be used, and how they intended to change it prior to launch. There was of course continued debate, some people were very happy to hear that most game info would be restricted, while others were concerned enough about ESO's direction to cancel their pre-orders as a result. Soon after, the final beta version before the release candidate (in other words, what you would play after the official head start launch of the live game servers) came and had these changes. It came to light that more than what was expected to be removed, was indeed removed. Other items that weren't expected to make the cut remained, such as seeing what items your group or raid party members received when looting boss monsters and other enemies via addons.

In addition to disabling the ability to see enemy resources remaining, we also could no longer see our own combat information such as what hit us, even through addons (just the amount we were attacked for, no mitigation information such as "You were hit by Flame Atronarch's Cinder Bolt for 343 Fire Damage (54 reduced)". Additional items that were never enabled included being able to make nameplates through addons (you cannot place tags or user interface objects in-world in relation to the camera, and never could, which is understandably needed to prevent additions like Deadly Boss Mobs (DBM) as I'm sure some may have heard about in World of Warcraft being widely hated).

-Elder Scrolls Online launched as a AAA subscription-based MMORPG title at the end of March 2014 for the head-start period, and the beginning of April for those who did not pre-order. In an early major game version (I believe it was version 1.1, the first major patch, but I may be mis-remembering... however, it was very shortly after the game's release), 1st-person camera improvements like a Field of View slider were added, but no comment was made on 3rd-person equivalents.

-Since, there has been little said by Zenimax in regards to considering either opening the functionality addon authors can use, or improving the default user interface to a more industry-standard level of options, other than two I can recall: one of nameplates not being a disliked idea during an "Elder Scrolls Off The Record" fansite interview with Mr. Sage, and another by @ZOS_JessicaFolsom mentioning that they were not off the table for implementation soon after. There haven't been to my knowledge (and if anyone has seen them, please feel free to link them here) any further statements regarding the entire issue publicly.

Finally, a few months ago in 2015, the Version 1.6 Public Test Server notes described additional camera options for the third-person view, adding and enabling option sliders to allow you to center the camera instead of the default far-off-to-the-right over the shoulder view, adjust its height upwards or downwards in relation to your character, and a Field of View slider (which gives the impression of being further away from your character, even though it does not actually move the camera, because it appears smaller in relationship to the extra game world you can see to your sides). Unfortunately, a maximum zoom distance preference was not added in this patch and remains unimplemented.

-Throughout the lifetime to date of The Elder Scrolls Online, there has been wide discussion of interface improvements both for functionality (examples such as a minimap, combat log tab, etc.) and ease-of-use/convenience items (a reply-to-mail button, category filters for your inventory, a better Guild Store interface that remembered your search and let you search by item name and other typical features, etc.). Earlier on, there was a fair amount of vocal single-player Elder Scrolls fans that continued to debate and assert that they would hurt the game's quality to have as options for each player to decide for themselves if they wanted to use, and therefore they should not be implemented because it would not be "true to the Elder Scrolls series", damaging their immersion in the game (even being optional). Prominent theorycrafters such as @TehMagnus (for example, here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1376600/#Comment_1376600) and myself, along with Cyrodiil PVP players that are well known for their twitch and youtube gameplay streams, supported interface improvements. Addon authors such as @Wykkyd that are household names in the addons department, have also stated their support.

Over time, as the game has matured, many (most?) players have become at the least not opposed to preferences like these being allowed as in-game options rather than needing to go download dozens (yes, literally) of add-ons and maintaining them, particularly as they have almost always broken with major bugs each time a large game patch came around, and most of the original add-on authors quit playing and updating their add-ons eventually. Many more players have understood the need or want for default versions of these features being optional, and supported the feedback when it has been made over time, through the present, but there has been no communication regarding the interface at large from functionality or quality of life issues except for mentions of some (a handful is a phrase I recall seeing, but I can't remember for sure) of the most popular add-ons for the PC Elder Scrolls Online being integrated into the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 versions, with a PC addition of these same features being uncertain, and not coming for awhile after the console ports were released.

Some fans have felt strongly enough about this topic to organize players to pose for quick mockups like this one by @Lfehova :

(Full-sized picture link: http://i.imgur.com/ZGn7NID.jpg)

Which shows their idea on how optional overhead nameplates and guild names could be integrated with the currently optional overhead health bars.

And that brings us to today. Thanks for reading, and hopefully this clears the air on some of the misconceptions floating around on this topic

. I have made my best effort to present things mostly objectively in this accounting, and of course anyone mentioned can correct the record here if they feel that I didn't show what they meant when paraphrased into this post

.

Valymer · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

show previous quotes

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Much of what the op wants can be obtained via add-ons. As for the rest of having it added into the game I suggest looking at the history and you will see THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!

If you look at the history from alpha/beta testing you'd see they had a full feature UI and decided TO TAKE IT ALL OUT because this is TES and we have a fairly normal TES UI.

There was even heated debate concerning what could be seen through thr API which some saying LEARN TO PLAY vs using all that added info and others saying GIVE ME A SCREEN OF NUMBERS and all this other information.

In the end the developers said very clearly and strong NO WAY.

That's not quite how it happened, @Giles.floydub17_ESO, in actuality. Let's set the record straight here with a history of the game's beta testing & development in regards to camera and User Interface (UI) issues in response to "community" feedback:

-In the beginning, there were toggleable options, for your own preference, to enable or disable overhead nameplates as well as guild nameplate tags optionally (additionally you had toggles for them being on at all, enabled on players from your faction, enabled on guildmates, enabled on enemies, enabled on enemy players, etc., everything you'd need to allow for basic gameplay and community in an online game), scrolling combat text, a combat log in a chat box tab including damage sources for enemies attacking you, and debuffs, as well as some other accomodations like not having the chatbox fade away along with its text/messages when inactive. You additionally could enable labels on resource bars like health and magicka so you could tell how much you had left.

-There was no 1st-person view, but people complained vociferously and it got added.

-Then non-MMORPG, single-player fans of Elder Scrolls lore came and complained loudly that they wanted everything not in the newest Skyrim single-player game taken out because they didn't want to be "forced" (quote-unquote, as there's no such thing) to toggle options on or off in the settings window because some random group they run into might ask them to in order to play with them (in which case you could simply just not group with them).

-ZOS, in response, began stripping some features like a minimap (how is it more immersive, exactly, to cover your entire screen in a giant map and be unable to see the game world constantly when needing to navigate, I to this day do not know), as people who didn't research the game being an MMORPG and claimed they would not play if it wasn't all removed. Nameplates were disabled with a statement being made that they would return in an improved form, which to date has not happened.

Mind you, things like the minimap and buff/debuff icons & indicators even were stock options in the UI in the previous Elder Scrolls games such as Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, but a vocal campaign insisted it would not work, enough so that they decided to change course to hopefully placate the bad press from the complaints and not damage sales. Understandable enough, it is a business after all .

- Then, loud complaints came in about how the first-person view didn't have good enough options and looked poorly animated (hypocritically, and when 3rd-person camera view issues were mentioned such as Field of View (FOV), zoom distance, and centering the camera, they were dismissed as unimportant by the same people begging for first-person improvements to that mode's FOV because "I don't use 3rd-person anyway"), and ZOS had a big to-do announcing how they were improving it in response to public feedback.

-Over the next several patches from October through March, more and more User Interface options were removed, and many of the game's most loyal supporters and guilds at that time such as @Atropos from Entropy Rising, @Wykkyd from Mostly Harmless (myself, @Attorneyatlawl from the same), @Izkimar from Best In Slot, amongst many others such as @Erlex, wrote a good deal about how this was hurting the game both from a gameplay standpoint and that it might damage its chances of subscription success once it launched as most people, having read about what the game was before buying it, would see it was an MMORPG and expect it to have basic accomodations like the minimap, a combat log, and health bar text, etc., or being able to see what their skills could morph into once they leveled them. Issues such as addon authors quitting the game over time, hassles with keeping addons up-to-date, and the API (interface defining what can be done with addons by their authors, which originally allowed for cast bars if wanted, as well as buff timers once the stock options were removed, as well as seeing what hit you in a combat log addon). Some supported the idea of them being removed and never being brought back, asking that this be made into a clear statement officially, and others had more mixed viewpoints at that point in time such as @IcyDeadPeople and @Ysne58, who since I believe have become more amiable towards these kinds of options being re-implemented when I have talked with them more recently.

Finally, there was a very.... we'll term it "lively", to be polite, debate in the closed beta community as to whether we should be able to see enemies' magicka and stamina with addons while targeting them. Contrary to many others, I actually did argue for that specific functionality to be disabled, as I felt it crossed to being "too much" information about your opponents' cards to play when fighting them.

-During this testing period, feedback and questions were made as to whether the Minimap would be returning as the ability to enable the older stock one was removed. @ZOS_GinaBruno clarified a relatively short time later that Zenimax's intention for the launch of The Elder Scrolls Online was to support the compass system for navigation and that it was unlikely to come back before then.

-A week or two before launch, @ZOS_PaulSage finally broke the silence and provided an official statement about their intentions for how the API would be used, and how they intended to change it prior to launch. There was of course continued debate, some people were very happy to hear that most game info would be restricted, while others were concerned enough about ESO's direction to cancel their pre-orders as a result. Soon after, the final beta version before the release candidate (in other words, what you would play after the official head start launch of the live game servers) came and had these changes. It came to light that more than what was expected to be removed, was indeed removed. Other items that weren't expected to make the cut remained, such as seeing what items your group or raid party members received when looting boss monsters and other enemies via addons.

In addition to disabling the ability to see enemy resources remaining, we also could no longer see our own combat information such as what hit us, even through addons (just the amount we were attacked for, no mitigation information such as "You were hit by Flame Atronarch's Cinder Bolt for 343 Fire Damage (54 reduced)". Additional items that were never enabled included being able to make nameplates through addons (you cannot place tags or user interface objects in-world in relation to the camera, and never could, which is understandably needed to prevent additions like Deadly Boss Mobs (DBM) as I'm sure some may have heard about in World of Warcraft being widely hated).

-Elder Scrolls Online launched as a AAA subscription-based MMORPG title at the end of March 2014 for the head-start period, and the beginning of April for those who did not pre-order. In an early major game version (I believe it was version 1.1, the first major patch, but I may be mis-remembering... however, it was very shortly after the game's release), 1st-person camera improvements like a Field of View slider were added, but no comment was made on 3rd-person equivalents.

-Since, there has been little said by Zenimax in regards to considering either opening the functionality addon authors can use, or improving the default user interface to a more industry-standard level of options, other than two I can recall: one of nameplates not being a disliked idea during an "Elder Scrolls Off The Record" fansite interview with Mr. Sage, and another by @ZOS_JessicaFolsom mentioning that they were not off the table for implementation soon after. There haven't been to my knowledge (and if anyone has seen them, please feel free to link them here) any further statements regarding the entire issue publicly.

Finally, a few months ago in 2015, the Version 1.6 Public Test Server notes described additional camera options for the third-person view, adding and enabling option sliders to allow you to center the camera instead of the default far-off-to-the-right over the shoulder view, adjust its height upwards or downwards in relation to your character, and a Field of View slider (which gives the impression of being further away from your character, even though it does not actually move the camera, because it appears smaller in relationship to the extra game world you can see to your sides). Unfortunately, a maximum zoom distance preference was not added in this patch and remains unimplemented.

-Throughout the lifetime to date of The Elder Scrolls Online, there has been wide discussion of interface improvements both for functionality (examples such as a minimap, combat log tab, etc.) and ease-of-use/convenience items (a reply-to-mail button, category filters for your inventory, a better Guild Store interface that remembered your search and let you search by item name and other typical features, etc.). Earlier on, there was a fair amount of vocal single-player Elder Scrolls fans that continued to debate and assert that they would hurt the game's quality to have as options for each player to decide for themselves if they wanted to use, and therefore they should not be implemented because it would not be "true to the Elder Scrolls series", damaging their immersion in the game (even being optional). Prominent theorycrafters such as @TehMagnus (for example, here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1376600/#Comment_1376600) and myself, along with Cyrodiil PVP players that are well known for their twitch and youtube gameplay streams, supported interface improvements. Addon authors such as @Wykkyd that are household names in the addons department, have also stated their support.

Over time, as the game has matured, many (most?) players have become at the least not opposed to preferences like these being allowed as in-game options rather than needing to go download dozens (yes, literally) of add-ons and maintaining them, particularly as they have almost always broken with major bugs each time a large game patch came around, and most of the original add-on authors quit playing and updating their add-ons eventually. Many more players have understood the need or want for default versions of these features being optional, and supported the feedback when it has been made over time, through the present, but there has been no communication regarding the interface at large from functionality or quality of life issues except for mentions of some (a handful is a phrase I recall seeing, but I can't remember for sure) of the most popular add-ons for the PC Elder Scrolls Online being integrated into the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 versions, with a PC addition of these same features being uncertain, and not coming for awhile after the console ports were released.

Some fans have felt strongly enough about this topic to organize players to pose for quick mockups like this one by @Lfehova :

(Full-sized picture link: http://i.imgur.com/ZGn7NID.jpg)

Which shows their idea on how optional overhead nameplates and guild names could be integrated with the currently optional overhead health bars.

And that brings us to today. Thanks for reading, and hopefully this clears the air on some of the misconceptions floating around on this topic . I have made my best effort to present things mostly objectively in this accounting, and of course anyone mentioned can correct the record here if they feel that I didn't show what they meant when paraphrased into this post .

Game, set, match.

Mirra_Halfelven · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

show previous quotes

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Much of what the op wants can be obtained via add-ons. As for the rest of having it added into the game I suggest looking at the history and you will see THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!

If you look at the history from alpha/beta testing you'd see they had a full feature UI and decided TO TAKE IT ALL OUT because this is TES and we have a fairly normal TES UI.

There was even heated debate concerning what could be seen through thr API which some saying LEARN TO PLAY vs using all that added info and others saying GIVE ME A SCREEN OF NUMBERS and all this other information.

In the end the developers said very clearly and strong NO WAY.

That's not quite how it happened, @Giles.floydub17_ESO, in actuality. Let's set the record straight here with a history of the game's beta testing & development in regards to camera and User Interface (UI) issues in response to "community" feedback:

-In the beginning, there were toggleable options, for your own preference, to enable or disable overhead nameplates as well as guild nameplate tags optionally (additionally you had toggles for them being on at all, enabled on players from your faction, enabled on guildmates, enabled on enemies, enabled on enemy players, etc., everything you'd need to allow for basic gameplay and community in an online game), scrolling combat text, a combat log in a chat box tab including damage sources for enemies attacking you, and debuffs, as well as some other accomodations like not having the chatbox fade away along with its text/messages when inactive. You additionally could enable labels on resource bars like health and magicka so you could tell how much you had left.

-There was no 1st-person view, but people complained vociferously and it got added.

-Then non-MMORPG, single-player fans of Elder Scrolls lore came and complained loudly that they wanted everything not in the newest Skyrim single-player game taken out because they didn't want to be "forced" (quote-unquote, as there's no such thing) to toggle options on or off in the settings window because some random group they run into might ask them to in order to play with them (in which case you could simply just not group with them).

-ZOS, in response, began stripping some features like a minimap (how is it more immersive, exactly, to cover your entire screen in a giant map and be unable to see the game world constantly when needing to navigate, I to this day do not know), as people who didn't research the game being an MMORPG and claimed they would not play if it wasn't all removed. Nameplates were disabled with a statement being made that they would return in an improved form, which to date has not happened.

Mind you, things like the minimap and buff/debuff icons & indicators even were stock options in the UI in the previous Elder Scrolls games such as Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, but a vocal campaign insisted it would not work, enough so that they decided to change course to hopefully placate the bad press from the complaints and not damage sales. Understandable enough, it is a business after all .

- Then, loud complaints came in about how the first-person view didn't have good enough options and looked poorly animated (hypocritically, and when 3rd-person camera view issues were mentioned such as Field of View (FOV), zoom distance, and centering the camera, they were dismissed as unimportant by the same people begging for first-person improvements to that mode's FOV because "I don't use 3rd-person anyway"), and ZOS had a big to-do announcing how they were improving it in response to public feedback.

-Over the next several patches from October through March, more and more User Interface options were removed, and many of the game's most loyal supporters and guilds at that time such as @Atropos from Entropy Rising, @Wykkyd from Mostly Harmless (myself, @Attorneyatlawl from the same), @Izkimar from Best In Slot, amongst many others such as @Erlex, wrote a good deal about how this was hurting the game both from a gameplay standpoint and that it might damage its chances of subscription success once it launched as most people, having read about what the game was before buying it, would see it was an MMORPG and expect it to have basic accomodations like the minimap, a combat log, and health bar text, etc., or being able to see what their skills could morph into once they leveled them. Issues such as addon authors quitting the game over time, hassles with keeping addons up-to-date, and the API (interface defining what can be done with addons by their authors, which originally allowed for cast bars if wanted, as well as buff timers once the stock options were removed, as well as seeing what hit you in a combat log addon). Some supported the idea of them being removed and never being brought back, asking that this be made into a clear statement officially, and others had more mixed viewpoints at that point in time such as @IcyDeadPeople and @Ysne58, who since I believe have become more amiable towards these kinds of options being re-implemented when I have talked with them more recently.

Finally, there was a very.... we'll term it "lively", to be polite, debate in the closed beta community as to whether we should be able to see enemies' magicka and stamina with addons while targeting them. Contrary to many others, I actually did argue for that specific functionality to be disabled, as I felt it crossed to being "too much" information about your opponents' cards to play when fighting them.

-During this testing period, feedback and questions were made as to whether the Minimap would be returning as the ability to enable the older stock one was removed. @ZOS_GinaBruno clarified a relatively short time later that Zenimax's intention for the launch of The Elder Scrolls Online was to support the compass system for navigation and that it was unlikely to come back before then.

-A week or two before launch, @ZOS_PaulSage finally broke the silence and provided an official statement about their intentions for how the API would be used, and how they intended to change it prior to launch. There was of course continued debate, some people were very happy to hear that most game info would be restricted, while others were concerned enough about ESO's direction to cancel their pre-orders as a result. Soon after, the final beta version before the release candidate (in other words, what you would play after the official head start launch of the live game servers) came and had these changes. It came to light that more than what was expected to be removed, was indeed removed. Other items that weren't expected to make the cut remained, such as seeing what items your group or raid party members received when looting boss monsters and other enemies via addons.

In addition to disabling the ability to see enemy resources remaining, we also could no longer see our own combat information such as what hit us, even through addons (just the amount we were attacked for, no mitigation information such as "You were hit by Flame Atronarch's Cinder Bolt for 343 Fire Damage (54 reduced)". Additional items that were never enabled included being able to make nameplates through addons (you cannot place tags or user interface objects in-world in relation to the camera, and never could, which is understandably needed to prevent additions like Deadly Boss Mobs (DBM) as I'm sure some may have heard about in World of Warcraft being widely hated).

-Elder Scrolls Online launched as a AAA subscription-based MMORPG title at the end of March 2014 for the head-start period, and the beginning of April for those who did not pre-order. In an early major game version (I believe it was version 1.1, the first major patch, but I may be mis-remembering... however, it was very shortly after the game's release), 1st-person camera improvements like a Field of View slider were added, but no comment was made on 3rd-person equivalents.

-Since, there has been little said by Zenimax in regards to considering either opening the functionality addon authors can use, or improving the default user interface to a more industry-standard level of options, other than two I can recall: one of nameplates not being a disliked idea during an "Elder Scrolls Off The Record" fansite interview with Mr. Sage, and another by @ZOS_JessicaFolsom mentioning that they were not off the table for implementation soon after. There haven't been to my knowledge (and if anyone has seen them, please feel free to link them here) any further statements regarding the entire issue publicly.

Finally, a few months ago in 2015, the Version 1.6 Public Test Server notes described additional camera options for the third-person view, adding and enabling option sliders to allow you to center the camera instead of the default far-off-to-the-right over the shoulder view, adjust its height upwards or downwards in relation to your character, and a Field of View slider (which gives the impression of being further away from your character, even though it does not actually move the camera, because it appears smaller in relationship to the extra game world you can see to your sides). Unfortunately, a maximum zoom distance preference was not added in this patch and remains unimplemented.

-Throughout the lifetime to date of The Elder Scrolls Online, there has been wide discussion of interface improvements both for functionality (examples such as a minimap, combat log tab, etc.) and ease-of-use/convenience items (a reply-to-mail button, category filters for your inventory, a better Guild Store interface that remembered your search and let you search by item name and other typical features, etc.). Earlier on, there was a fair amount of vocal single-player Elder Scrolls fans that continued to debate and assert that they would hurt the game's quality to have as options for each player to decide for themselves if they wanted to use, and therefore they should not be implemented because it would not be "true to the Elder Scrolls series", damaging their immersion in the game (even being optional). Prominent theorycrafters such as @TehMagnus (for example, here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1376600/#Comment_1376600) and myself, along with Cyrodiil PVP players that are well known for their twitch and youtube gameplay streams, supported interface improvements. Addon authors such as @Wykkyd that are household names in the addons department, have also stated their support.

Over time, as the game has matured, many (most?) players have become at the least not opposed to preferences like these being allowed as in-game options rather than needing to go download dozens (yes, literally) of add-ons and maintaining them, particularly as they have almost always broken with major bugs each time a large game patch came around, and most of the original add-on authors quit playing and updating their add-ons eventually. Many more players have understood the need or want for default versions of these features being optional, and supported the feedback when it has been made over time, through the present, but there has been no communication regarding the interface at large from functionality or quality of life issues except for mentions of some (a handful is a phrase I recall seeing, but I can't remember for sure) of the most popular add-ons for the PC Elder Scrolls Online being integrated into the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 versions, with a PC addition of these same features being uncertain, and not coming for awhile after the console ports were released.

Some fans have felt strongly enough about this topic to organize players to pose for quick mockups like this one by @Lfehova :

(Full-sized picture link: http://i.imgur.com/ZGn7NID.jpg)

Which shows their idea on how optional overhead nameplates and guild names could be integrated with the currently optional overhead health bars.

And that brings us to today. Thanks for reading, and hopefully this clears the air on some of the misconceptions floating around on this topic . I have made my best effort to present things mostly objectively in this accounting, and of course anyone mentioned can correct the record here if they feel that I didn't show what they meant when paraphrased into this post .

Sadly we are seeing history repeating itself on the console version of ESO, namely the removal of text chat, which I still see no logical reason to do.

Limiting player choice is a "bad thing" you would think they would figure this out by now.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

Mirra_Halfelven wrote: »

Spoiler

Mirra_Halfelven wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Much of what the op wants can be obtained via add-ons. As for the rest of having it added into the game I suggest looking at the history and you will see THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!

If you look at the history from alpha/beta testing you'd see they had a full feature UI and decided TO TAKE IT ALL OUT because this is TES and we have a fairly normal TES UI.

There was even heated debate concerning what could be seen through thr API which some saying LEARN TO PLAY vs using all that added info and others saying GIVE ME A SCREEN OF NUMBERS and all this other information.

In the end the developers said very clearly and strong NO WAY.

That's not quite how it happened, @Giles.floydub17_ESO, in actuality. Let's set the record straight here with a history of the game's beta testing & development in regards to camera and User Interface (UI) issues in response to "community" feedback:

-In the beginning, there were toggleable options, for your own preference, to enable or disable overhead nameplates as well as guild nameplate tags optionally (additionally you had toggles for them being on at all, enabled on players from your faction, enabled on guildmates, enabled on enemies, enabled on enemy players, etc., everything you'd need to allow for basic gameplay and community in an online game), scrolling combat text, a combat log in a chat box tab including damage sources for enemies attacking you, and debuffs, as well as some other accomodations like not having the chatbox fade away along with its text/messages when inactive. You additionally could enable labels on resource bars like health and magicka so you could tell how much you had left.

-There was no 1st-person view, but people complained vociferously and it got added.

-Then non-MMORPG, single-player fans of Elder Scrolls lore came and complained loudly that they wanted everything not in the newest Skyrim single-player game taken out because they didn't want to be "forced" (quote-unquote, as there's no such thing) to toggle options on or off in the settings window because some random group they run into might ask them to in order to play with them (in which case you could simply just not group with them).

-ZOS, in response, began stripping some features like a minimap (how is it more immersive, exactly, to cover your entire screen in a giant map and be unable to see the game world constantly when needing to navigate, I to this day do not know), as people who didn't research the game being an MMORPG and claimed they would not play if it wasn't all removed. Nameplates were disabled with a statement being made that they would return in an improved form, which to date has not happened.

Mind you, things like the minimap and buff/debuff icons & indicators even were stock options in the UI in the previous Elder Scrolls games such as Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, but a vocal campaign insisted it would not work, enough so that they decided to change course to hopefully placate the bad press from the complaints and not damage sales. Understandable enough, it is a business after all .

- Then, loud complaints came in about how the first-person view didn't have good enough options and looked poorly animated (hypocritically, and when 3rd-person camera view issues were mentioned such as Field of View (FOV), zoom distance, and centering the camera, they were dismissed as unimportant by the same people begging for first-person improvements to that mode's FOV because "I don't use 3rd-person anyway"), and ZOS had a big to-do announcing how they were improving it in response to public feedback.

-Over the next several patches from October through March, more and more User Interface options were removed, and many of the game's most loyal supporters and guilds at that time such as @Atropos from Entropy Rising, @Wykkyd from Mostly Harmless (myself, @Attorneyatlawl from the same), @Izkimar from Best In Slot, amongst many others such as @Erlex, wrote a good deal about how this was hurting the game both from a gameplay standpoint and that it might damage its chances of subscription success once it launched as most people, having read about what the game was before buying it, would see it was an MMORPG and expect it to have basic accomodations like the minimap, a combat log, and health bar text, etc., or being able to see what their skills could morph into once they leveled them. Issues such as addon authors quitting the game over time, hassles with keeping addons up-to-date, and the API (interface defining what can be done with addons by their authors, which originally allowed for cast bars if wanted, as well as buff timers once the stock options were removed, as well as seeing what hit you in a combat log addon). Some supported the idea of them being removed and never being brought back, asking that this be made into a clear statement officially, and others had more mixed viewpoints at that point in time such as @IcyDeadPeople and @Ysne58, who since I believe have become more amiable towards these kinds of options being re-implemented when I have talked with them more recently.

Finally, there was a very.... we'll term it "lively", to be polite, debate in the closed beta community as to whether we should be able to see enemies' magicka and stamina with addons while targeting them. Contrary to many others, I actually did argue for that specific functionality to be disabled, as I felt it crossed to being "too much" information about your opponents' cards to play when fighting them.

-During this testing period, feedback and questions were made as to whether the Minimap would be returning as the ability to enable the older stock one was removed. @ZOS_GinaBruno clarified a relatively short time later that Zenimax's intention for the launch of The Elder Scrolls Online was to support the compass system for navigation and that it was unlikely to come back before then.

-A week or two before launch, @ZOS_PaulSage finally broke the silence and provided an official statement about their intentions for how the API would be used, and how they intended to change it prior to launch. There was of course continued debate, some people were very happy to hear that most game info would be restricted, while others were concerned enough about ESO's direction to cancel their pre-orders as a result. Soon after, the final beta version before the release candidate (in other words, what you would play after the official head start launch of the live game servers) came and had these changes. It came to light that more than what was expected to be removed, was indeed removed. Other items that weren't expected to make the cut remained, such as seeing what items your group or raid party members received when looting boss monsters and other enemies via addons.

In addition to disabling the ability to see enemy resources remaining, we also could no longer see our own combat information such as what hit us, even through addons (just the amount we were attacked for, no mitigation information such as "You were hit by Flame Atronarch's Cinder Bolt for 343 Fire Damage (54 reduced)". Additional items that were never enabled included being able to make nameplates through addons (you cannot place tags or user interface objects in-world in relation to the camera, and never could, which is understandably needed to prevent additions like Deadly Boss Mobs (DBM) as I'm sure some may have heard about in World of Warcraft being widely hated).

-Elder Scrolls Online launched as a AAA subscription-based MMORPG title at the end of March 2014 for the head-start period, and the beginning of April for those who did not pre-order. In an early major game version (I believe it was version 1.1, the first major patch, but I may be mis-remembering... however, it was very shortly after the game's release), 1st-person camera improvements like a Field of View slider were added, but no comment was made on 3rd-person equivalents.

-Since, there has been little said by Zenimax in regards to considering either opening the functionality addon authors can use, or improving the default user interface to a more industry-standard level of options, other than two I can recall: one of nameplates not being a disliked idea during an "Elder Scrolls Off The Record" fansite interview with Mr. Sage, and another by @ZOS_JessicaFolsom mentioning that they were not off the table for implementation soon after. There haven't been to my knowledge (and if anyone has seen them, please feel free to link them here) any further statements regarding the entire issue publicly.

Finally, a few months ago in 2015, the Version 1.6 Public Test Server notes described additional camera options for the third-person view, adding and enabling option sliders to allow you to center the camera instead of the default far-off-to-the-right over the shoulder view, adjust its height upwards or downwards in relation to your character, and a Field of View slider (which gives the impression of being further away from your character, even though it does not actually move the camera, because it appears smaller in relationship to the extra game world you can see to your sides). Unfortunately, a maximum zoom distance preference was not added in this patch and remains unimplemented.

-Throughout the lifetime to date of The Elder Scrolls Online, there has been wide discussion of interface improvements both for functionality (examples such as a minimap, combat log tab, etc.) and ease-of-use/convenience items (a reply-to-mail button, category filters for your inventory, a better Guild Store interface that remembered your search and let you search by item name and other typical features, etc.). Earlier on, there was a fair amount of vocal single-player Elder Scrolls fans that continued to debate and assert that they would hurt the game's quality to have as options for each player to decide for themselves if they wanted to use, and therefore they should not be implemented because it would not be "true to the Elder Scrolls series", damaging their immersion in the game (even being optional). Prominent theorycrafters such as @TehMagnus (for example, here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1376600/#Comment_1376600) and myself, along with Cyrodiil PVP players that are well known for their twitch and youtube gameplay streams, supported interface improvements. Addon authors such as @Wykkyd that are household names in the addons department, have also stated their support.

Over time, as the game has matured, many (most?) players have become at the least not opposed to preferences like these being allowed as in-game options rather than needing to go download dozens (yes, literally) of add-ons and maintaining them, particularly as they have almost always broken with major bugs each time a large game patch came around, and most of the original add-on authors quit playing and updating their add-ons eventually. Many more players have understood the need or want for default versions of these features being optional, and supported the feedback when it has been made over time, through the present, but there has been no communication regarding the interface at large from functionality or quality of life issues except for mentions of some (a handful is a phrase I recall seeing, but I can't remember for sure) of the most popular add-ons for the PC Elder Scrolls Online being integrated into the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 versions, with a PC addition of these same features being uncertain, and not coming for awhile after the console ports were released.

Some fans have felt strongly enough about this topic to organize players to pose for quick mockups like this one by @Lfehova :

(Full-sized picture link: http://i.imgur.com/ZGn7NID.jpg)

Which shows their idea on how optional overhead nameplates and guild names could be integrated with the currently optional overhead health bars.

And that brings us to today. Thanks for reading, and hopefully this clears the air on some of the misconceptions floating around on this topic . I have made my best effort to present things mostly objectively in this accounting, and of course anyone mentioned can correct the record here if they feel that I didn't show what they meant when paraphrased into this post .

Sadly we are seeing history repeating itself on the console version of ESO, namely the removal of text chat, which I still see no logical reason to do.

Limiting player choice is a "bad thing" you would think they would figure this out by now.

Saw a new article on the front page...

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2015/05/07/this-is-esotu--freedom-and-choice-in-tamriel

Got excited, clicked....

Ysne58 · May 2015

It's been driving me crazy that I keep getting mentioned in this thread. I finally found the quote where I'm mentioned.

I've always been a great one to have mixed feelings on things, probably because I used to be a lawyer before I got too sick to practice.

Like I said after watching some of the newer pvp videos, especially @Sypher 's, I do see why that information is necessary in pvp.

From what I've seen on videos, this also helps with some of the PvE end content (Trials).

I also think the devs need to separate out PvE and PvP more because every time they change a skill for PvP it screws up something in PvE and vice versa.

@Attorneyatlawl has made some really good suggestions on how to implement these things with minimal impact on the utilitarian and minimalistic ui that is available.

Lykurgis · May 2015

ya, i always wanted the old mini-map back too

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/132060/who-thinks-zos-should-return-beta-minimap-with-an-option-to-turn-it-off

DDuke · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

show previous quotes

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Much of what the op wants can be obtained via add-ons. As for the rest of having it added into the game I suggest looking at the history and you will see THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!!

If you look at the history from alpha/beta testing you'd see they had a full feature UI and decided TO TAKE IT ALL OUT because this is TES and we have a fairly normal TES UI.

There was even heated debate concerning what could be seen through thr API which some saying LEARN TO PLAY vs using all that added info and others saying GIVE ME A SCREEN OF NUMBERS and all this other information.

In the end the developers said very clearly and strong NO WAY.

That's not quite how it happened, @Giles.floydub17_ESO, in actuality. Let's set the record straight here with a history of the game's beta testing & development in regards to camera and User Interface (UI) issues in response to "community" feedback:

-In the beginning, there were toggleable options, for your own preference, to enable or disable overhead nameplates as well as guild nameplate tags optionally (additionally you had toggles for them being on at all, enabled on players from your faction, enabled on guildmates, enabled on enemies, enabled on enemy players, etc., everything you'd need to allow for basic gameplay and community in an online game), scrolling combat text, a combat log in a chat box tab including damage sources for enemies attacking you, and debuffs, as well as some other accomodations like not having the chatbox fade away along with its text/messages when inactive. You additionally could enable labels on resource bars like health and magicka so you could tell how much you had left.

-There was no 1st-person view, but people complained vociferously and it got added.

-Then non-MMORPG, single-player fans of Elder Scrolls lore came and complained loudly that they wanted everything not in the newest Skyrim single-player game taken out because they didn't want to be "forced" (quote-unquote, as there's no such thing) to toggle options on or off in the settings window because some random group they run into might ask them to in order to play with them (in which case you could simply just not group with them).

-ZOS, in response, began stripping some features like a minimap (how is it more immersive, exactly, to cover your entire screen in a giant map and be unable to see the game world constantly when needing to navigate, I to this day do not know), as people who didn't research the game being an MMORPG and claimed they would not play if it wasn't all removed. Nameplates were disabled with a statement being made that they would return in an improved form, which to date has not happened.

Mind you, things like the minimap and buff/debuff icons & indicators even were stock options in the UI in the previous Elder Scrolls games such as Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, but a vocal campaign insisted it would not work, enough so that they decided to change course to hopefully placate the bad press from the complaints and not damage sales. Understandable enough, it is a business after all .

- Then, loud complaints came in about how the first-person view didn't have good enough options and looked poorly animated (hypocritically, and when 3rd-person camera view issues were mentioned such as Field of View (FOV), zoom distance, and centering the camera, they were dismissed as unimportant by the same people begging for first-person improvements to that mode's FOV because "I don't use 3rd-person anyway"), and ZOS had a big to-do announcing how they were improving it in response to public feedback.

-Over the next several patches from October through March, more and more User Interface options were removed, and many of the game's most loyal supporters and guilds at that time such as @Atropos from Entropy Rising, @Wykkyd from Mostly Harmless (myself, @Attorneyatlawl from the same), @Izkimar from Best In Slot, amongst many others such as @Erlex, wrote a good deal about how this was hurting the game both from a gameplay standpoint and that it might damage its chances of subscription success once it launched as most people, having read about what the game was before buying it, would see it was an MMORPG and expect it to have basic accomodations like the minimap, a combat log, and health bar text, etc., or being able to see what their skills could morph into once they leveled them. Issues such as addon authors quitting the game over time, hassles with keeping addons up-to-date, and the API (interface defining what can be done with addons by their authors, which originally allowed for cast bars if wanted, as well as buff timers once the stock options were removed, as well as seeing what hit you in a combat log addon). Some supported the idea of them being removed and never being brought back, asking that this be made into a clear statement officially, and others had more mixed viewpoints at that point in time such as @IcyDeadPeople and @Ysne58, who since I believe have become more amiable towards these kinds of options being re-implemented when I have talked with them more recently.

Finally, there was a very.... we'll term it "lively", to be polite, debate in the closed beta community as to whether we should be able to see enemies' magicka and stamina with addons while targeting them. Contrary to many others, I actually did argue for that specific functionality to be disabled, as I felt it crossed to being "too much" information about your opponents' cards to play when fighting them.

-During this testing period, feedback and questions were made as to whether the Minimap would be returning as the ability to enable the older stock one was removed. @ZOS_GinaBruno clarified a relatively short time later that Zenimax's intention for the launch of The Elder Scrolls Online was to support the compass system for navigation and that it was unlikely to come back before then.

-A week or two before launch, @ZOS_PaulSage finally broke the silence and provided an official statement about their intentions for how the API would be used, and how they intended to change it prior to launch. There was of course continued debate, some people were very happy to hear that most game info would be restricted, while others were concerned enough about ESO's direction to cancel their pre-orders as a result. Soon after, the final beta version before the release candidate (in other words, what you would play after the official head start launch of the live game servers) came and had these changes. It came to light that more than what was expected to be removed, was indeed removed. Other items that weren't expected to make the cut remained, such as seeing what items your group or raid party members received when looting boss monsters and other enemies via addons.

In addition to disabling the ability to see enemy resources remaining, we also could no longer see our own combat information such as what hit us, even through addons (just the amount we were attacked for, no mitigation information such as "You were hit by Flame Atronarch's Cinder Bolt for 343 Fire Damage (54 reduced)". Additional items that were never enabled included being able to make nameplates through addons (you cannot place tags or user interface objects in-world in relation to the camera, and never could, which is understandably needed to prevent additions like Deadly Boss Mobs (DBM) as I'm sure some may have heard about in World of Warcraft being widely hated).

-Elder Scrolls Online launched as a AAA subscription-based MMORPG title at the end of March 2014 for the head-start period, and the beginning of April for those who did not pre-order. In an early major game version (I believe it was version 1.1, the first major patch, but I may be mis-remembering... however, it was very shortly after the game's release), 1st-person camera improvements like a Field of View slider were added, but no comment was made on 3rd-person equivalents.

-Since, there has been little said by Zenimax in regards to considering either opening the functionality addon authors can use, or improving the default user interface to a more industry-standard level of options, other than two I can recall: one of nameplates not being a disliked idea during an "Elder Scrolls Off The Record" fansite interview with Mr. Sage, and another by @ZOS_JessicaFolsom mentioning that they were not off the table for implementation soon after. There haven't been to my knowledge (and if anyone has seen them, please feel free to link them here) any further statements regarding the entire issue publicly.

Finally, a few months ago in 2015, the Version 1.6 Public Test Server notes described additional camera options for the third-person view, adding and enabling option sliders to allow you to center the camera instead of the default far-off-to-the-right over the shoulder view, adjust its height upwards or downwards in relation to your character, and a Field of View slider (which gives the impression of being further away from your character, even though it does not actually move the camera, because it appears smaller in relationship to the extra game world you can see to your sides). Unfortunately, a maximum zoom distance preference was not added in this patch and remains unimplemented.

-Throughout the lifetime to date of The Elder Scrolls Online, there has been wide discussion of interface improvements both for functionality (examples such as a minimap, combat log tab, etc.) and ease-of-use/convenience items (a reply-to-mail button, category filters for your inventory, a better Guild Store interface that remembered your search and let you search by item name and other typical features, etc.). Earlier on, there was a fair amount of vocal single-player Elder Scrolls fans that continued to debate and assert that they would hurt the game's quality to have as options for each player to decide for themselves if they wanted to use, and therefore they should not be implemented because it would not be "true to the Elder Scrolls series", damaging their immersion in the game (even being optional). Prominent theorycrafters such as @TehMagnus (for example, here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1376600/#Comment_1376600) and myself, along with Cyrodiil PVP players that are well known for their twitch and youtube gameplay streams, supported interface improvements. Addon authors such as @Wykkyd that are household names in the addons department, have also stated their support.

Over time, as the game has matured, many (most?) players have become at the least not opposed to preferences like these being allowed as in-game options rather than needing to go download dozens (yes, literally) of add-ons and maintaining them, particularly as they have almost always broken with major bugs each time a large game patch came around, and most of the original add-on authors quit playing and updating their add-ons eventually. Many more players have understood the need or want for default versions of these features being optional, and supported the feedback when it has been made over time, through the present, but there has been no communication regarding the interface at large from functionality or quality of life issues except for mentions of some (a handful is a phrase I recall seeing, but I can't remember for sure) of the most popular add-ons for the PC Elder Scrolls Online being integrated into the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 versions, with a PC addition of these same features being uncertain, and not coming for awhile after the console ports were released.

Some fans have felt strongly enough about this topic to organize players to pose for quick mockups like this one by @Lfehova :

(Full-sized picture link: http://i.imgur.com/ZGn7NID.jpg)

Which shows their idea on how optional overhead nameplates and guild names could be integrated with the currently optional overhead health bars.

And that brings us to today. Thanks for reading, and hopefully this clears the air on some of the misconceptions floating around on this topic . I have made my best effort to present things mostly objectively in this accounting, and of course anyone mentioned can correct the record here if they feel that I didn't show what they meant when paraphrased into this post .

Incredible... I wasnt aware they even had these industry standard features in at some point, let alone the fact that they removed the option to toggle them on.

"Hey, come play our Skyrim Online! Dumbed down & stupid, just like you like it."

Anyone surprised this game wasn't a big success?

The blatant disrespect of MMO gamers by defying standard MMO features is mind-boggling to say the least.

I really wish ZOS would open their eyes & realize this isn't Skyrim Online (nor should it be).
It's a MMO, and it should be built around being a MMO (with TES flavour).

Olysja · May 2015

sorry but.. 90% of this thread is pretty useless. Eso is awesome compared to others mmos just for its own cleared UI, and you want *** infos spams everywhere. Just download some addons if you want to fix all your missing information, like how much time you must wait for cast another spell or how much time you can sprint rotfl. Rly, Eso needs some great improvements but surely not that kind.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

Olysja wrote: »

sorry but.. 90% of this thread is pretty useless. Eso is awesome compared to others mmos just for its own cleared UI, and you want silly infos spams everywhere. Just download some addons if you want to fix all your missing information, like how much time you must wait for cast another spell or how much time you can sprint rotfl. Rly, Eso needs some great improvements but surely not that kind.

Optional features would be exactly that: optional, so if you didn't want to see further gameplay information on your screen, you would see no change as compared to how you play today. As far as using add-ons, they unfortunately have their own sets of issues as has been covered inside of this thread including maintenance, accessibility to players, stability, and integration in general, and largely aren't permitted by the API to have much of the combat information you'd expect. I'd encourage you to read through some more of this thread to find out more

.

I also do feel it bears re-iterating that the default interface in ESO is most definitely not a "cleared UI" as you asserted. It is actually rather bulky with many decorative elements that aren't beneficial for usability or features, without allowing gameplay insight. With a handful of community addons, it can be made much more minimalistic while gaining usefulness and adding some of the missing functionality.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

"DDuke wrote: »

Incredible... I wasnt aware they even had these industry standard features in at some point, let alone the fact that they removed the option to toggle them on.

"Hey, come play our Skyrim Online! Dumbed down & stupid, just like you like it."

Anyone surprised this game wasn't a big success?

The blatant disrespect of MMO gamers by defying standard MMO features is mind-boggling to say the least.

I really wish ZOS would open their eyes & realize this isn't Skyrim Online (nor should it be).
It's a MMO, and it should be built around being a MMO (with TES flavour).

The Elder Scrolls Online was advertised as an MMORPG set in the Elder Scrolls universe and lore, not Elder Scrolls VI: Online. I remember seeing articles going to lengths to remind people that this was not the continuation of the single-player series and that eventually, a new installment in the main series would arrive. I can't help but think they strayed from that original vision,

.

MorHawk · May 2015

Haha. Knew as soon as I read that comment trying to tell Atto what it was like in beta that we were about to get a wall o' text. Well played man.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

.

MorHawk wrote: »

Haha. Knew as soon as I read that comment trying to tell Atto what it was like in beta that we were about to get a wall o' text. Well played man.

You're too polite... I prefer the term "tower of text", myself

.

Smiteye · May 2015

Another patch day... another patch with nothing about this

.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

Smiteye wrote: »

Another patch day... another patch with nothing about this .

If we ever do see these kinds of changes, I wouldn't expect it to happen in a minor patch revision, only a major game version

.