ESO Needs Small Scale PvP.

reften · April 2015

rajaniemiorama_ESO wrote: »

Years after WoW integrated small scale PvP, they admitted it was the #1 mistake they ever made. Dealing with balance issues on top of elitists was mind-numbing and nigh impossible.

That being said, I think "mid-scale" pvp might be a better way to go. We already know ZoS is attempting to get people to spread out due to server "stability", rather than to prevent zerging. I would say perhaps allowing mid-sized 12-24 man groups to pvp, either two or three factions at once. Call them bar fights or whatever. Too big for elitist builds to matter too much or balance issues to be reduced to mere fractions of a number, too small for the server to bottom out (hopefully).

Agree? Disagree? Is it just a terrible idea?

Adding small scale pvp turns ESO into just another CoD clone. No thanks. Plenty of games like that out there.

golfer.dub17_ESO · April 2015

Here's my idea:

What if Cyrodiil was littered with tons of minor objectives? Like supply caches, or hamlets that would generate AP, or so on.

This would encourage small groups or even solo players to travel around the map collecting these, while the larger zergs would be more concerned with controlling the keeps and outposts.

Though I don't see the problem with simply allowing people to port into an arena of some sort.

Hexi wrote: »

Show me a video where a defended keep with roughly equal numbers is taken in 30 seconds.

You can't, and never will. Now go troll some other thread.

So shooting siege weapons at a wall for a long time as the other side spams them back isn't a predictable grind?

Valymer · April 2015

rajaniemiorama_ESO wrote: »

Years after WoW integrated small scale PvP, they admitted it was the #1 mistake they ever made. Dealing with balance issues on top of elitists was mind-numbing and nigh impossible.

That being said, I think "mid-scale" pvp might be a better way to go. We already know ZoS is attempting to get people to spread out due to server "stability", rather than to prevent zerging. I would say perhaps allowing mid-sized 12-24 man groups to pvp, either two or three factions at once. Call them bar fights or whatever. Too big for elitist builds to matter too much or balance issues to be reduced to mere fractions of a number, too small for the server to bottom out (hopefully).

Agree? Disagree? Is it just a terrible idea?

AKA battlegrounds...

Pirhana7_ESO · April 2015

This was always promoted as a siege warfare game where you are on the battle field for a purpose and what yu do stands until enemies take action to change that, not a pointless arena match that means nothing after it is over and helps your alliance in no way.

Small scale PVP is everywhere in Cyrodiil, just dont follow the zergs or go to keep sieges, but since it is still in Cyrodiil you are still helping your alliance.

I ambush people all day long on paths to the keep action and it is alot more fun than any planned arena match

Abbon · April 2015

YES YES WE DO. WE NEED SMALL SCALE PVP. Such as like 25v25, 1v1,5v5. Its going to make the game into whole diffrent meaning. Please we need this. GM's out there, go talk to your managers or somethin tell em

Forestd16b14_ESO · April 2015

Another post about dueling/arena

..... There been 100s to 1000s of post about stuff like this and we all want it I would love to do arena style PvP to finally kill sorc who streak away when there about to die but @ZOS_BrianWheeler pretty much said no.... period ... No arena, dueling, small scale, ect ect ..... This is one of the things ZoS isn't gonna listen to no matter how much we ask for it .... either though every other form of MMORPG has a arena/dueling function cause it's one of those core mechanics in game that players want/need. Cause say your a level 30 something and wanna pvp but you always find V14's who slaughter in 10 seconds but with arena/dueling a level 30 something can fight a level 30 something and thus making them more involed in pvp and not rage quiet cause they always get killed by players who are always a much higher level than they are.

rileynotzb14_ESO · April 2015

There's been a million threads about this since launch. Zenimax said no, but I agree 100%. This game desperately NEEDS an Oblivion-style arena with PvP added to it.

BugCollector · April 2015

Agree with OP!

Attorneyatlawl · April 2015

Valymer wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Hexi wrote: »

No. Battleground PvP is the most boring, repetitive form of PvP you can have. It's nothing but a predictable GRIND where the battle is decided 30 seconds into the fight. Go play mobas or some other MMOs.

Lol, and Cyrodiil isn't?

Show me a video where a defended keep with roughly equal numbers is taken in 30 seconds.

You can't, and never will. Now go troll some other thread.

I was responding to:

Hexi wrote: »

No. Battleground PvP is the most boring, repetitive form of PvP you can have. It's nothing but a predictable GRIND

wrlifeboil wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

any rated system is garbage - as 98+% of the playerbase are not as good as they think and get stomped by the last <2%.
than they demand nerfes and buffs to pamper their egos as the 2% only won because of abusing overpowered classes/skills and after a few months they realise the problem is not the opponents but them... they list fewer and fewer leading to compleatly dead rated system.
unrated arenas are faceing the same situation.

do it the old school DAoC way the number of players actually doing smallscale pvp is extremly small and easy to coordinate use the given options to create your own small scale PvP and every thing is fine.

Too bad the beta forums don't exist. The DAoC crowd was enthusiastic about Cyrodiil being the centerpiece of ESO. Only reinforces that old school is called old school for a reason.

There is some truth in what you wrote about people thinking they are better than they might be but there is usually a progression. Example in another game. Usually newbies don't like to do small 10v10 bgs because they get singled out and taken down easily. Smarter ones start with bigger bgs like 40v40 where they can stay with the group. As they get better and more confident, they do the smaller BGs until they finally feel comfortable doing the 10v10s. There is no 'structuring' like that in Cyrodiil where you get that feeling of progression.

That said, I didn't expect bgs or arenas in ESO back then and still don't expect them in ESO in the near future. It would have been a nice option but it's not their forte.

Battleground type pvp sucks in my humble opinion. If I wanted no real surprises or variation in an instanced zone that goes poof after 10 minutes and is a small landmass. I could go play an fps. I play RvR pvp because it has no magical set definitive ending time or condition, and is persistent while offering all types of pvp from roaming small group, solo or duo, zerging, sieges, small skilled strike forces, ambushing, a huge terrain with travel routes, and some pve even to do if you want to still be able to have pvp happen instead of being 100% safe in pve zones.

Progression in bg's? You're describing how Cyrodiil works right now. Most start out by zerging around in huge groups where they aren't individually as important to the fight while new players. Then often they branch out as they learn to play, not dying to siege fire constantly (many seem to get stuck on that one hehe), and figuring out how the flow of combat tends to go. They then try making their own groups, usually smaller as they become more skilled and some from there go on to do strike force groups as they become great players, and solo/duo monsters the like of which causes cries for nerfs amongst the unskilled or people not understanding game mechanics

. Some don't, and just zerg, gradually becoming a little better but not going off much or in smaller groups on their own. That's fine, too, if they're enjoying themselves. And for the big bad wolves? Well, more prey

.

Attorneyatlawl · April 2015

The_Drexill wrote: »

ZoS doesn't want small scale. Superbuffing resource guards proves this.

Actually, it shows they want them to be more than speedbumps when a skilled solo player (any class) wanders around, and not be irrelevant against 3 or more people by just dying in the aoe of an actual fight instantly and being completely ignored. They're meant to provide a brief window of delay for player defenders to respond, and act as a deterrent against solo capturing large objectives like undefended keeps.

inMorsAeterna · April 2015

Many great points have been brought up and I would like to address them.

1. Battle grounds is boring.
a. The beauty of BG is that not everyone has to play, and the people who want to play will love it.
b. This is also good because it will leave lots of pop in Cyro for RvRvR.

2. Battle grounds will kill Cyro.
a. Having BG will bring population to the game, therefor bolstering Cyro and PvE at the same time.
b. As you can see many people do not like BG, that shows you Cyro will have a loyal player base.

3. Battle grounds caused class imbalance in Wow.
a. Wow has 275% more classes then ESO and no limits on the skills that can be used, obviously exacerbating the balancing issue. Balancing 4 classes is not nearly as difficult, and will allow for a more transparent balancing of classes.
b. This game already has made great progress on balancing classes, and seems that it is well on its way to becoming balanced.

4. We want the Devs to fix Cyro, not make a new form of PvP.
a. They made a BG for E3 in no time. All the mechanics are already in place. I doubt it would be an enormous job to implement a BG.
b. By having alternative forms of PvP they could potentially reduce server load on Cyro.

---

All in all, there is absolutely no absolute reason why a BG shouldn't eventually be put into ESO.

LEGENDARYYY · April 2015

YES PLS!

inMorsAeterna · April 2015

this

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I am however all in favor of more leader board stats including time in Cyrodiil per campaign and lifetime, deaths, points earned per hour average and best, as well as past leader board history. This would give much needed qualifiers to judge off of, instead of raw point totals alone, plus extra stats on leader boards help make them more fun .

Prokonto · April 2015

sarttsarttsarttub17_ESO wrote: »

Then you would destroy Cyrodiil pvp.

Do filmów u logic all we eter get pvp vise is laggy pugy cyro no expansion no progres no scenarios od arenas... coz any fresh thing coupe destroy never changing cyro...

SHADOW2KK · April 2015

inMorsAeterna wrote: »

this

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

I am however all in favor of more leader board stats including time in Cyrodiil per campaign and lifetime, deaths, points earned per hour average and best, as well as past leader board history. This would give much needed qualifiers to judge off of, instead of raw point totals alone, plus extra stats on leader boards help make them more fun .

Elitists would love that...oh wait...

Jitterbug · April 2015

I have been an avid supporter of small scale pvp from the start since I love that type of gameplay, but as I get deeper and deeper into Cyrodiil I'm beginning to have my doubts.
What Cyrodiil offers is a lot of "unique" places for the fights to unfold. In small "battlegrounds" you always just storm this resource or that resource or whatever the objective is, but in Cyrodiil anything can happen.
I totally understand that the PvDoor gets old, and that the large scale sieges lag out, but there are smaller fights to be found and when you do they are awesome.
I still wouldn't take small scale away from anyone and I would totally play them myself, but I have in later days changed my stance from "Small scale is absolutely needed" to "It would be nice if they added them".

newtinmpls · April 2015

inMorsAeterna wrote: »

<snip of early bits>

4. We want the Devs to fix Cyro, not make a new form of PvP.[/b]
a. They made a BG for E3 in no time. All the mechanics are already in place. I doubt it would be an enormous job to implement a BG.
b. By having alternative forms of PvP they could potentially reduce server load on Cyro.
.

I'd suggested some modification of the daily writs in Cyrodiil here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151136/suggestion-pvp-4x4-24x24x24-battlegrounds-eso-arenas-be-a-daedric-or-aedric-champion/p3

It went something like this:

What about expanding the daily writs to include competing "claim a farm" or resource type areas?

Think of it this way - two opposing groups from different alliances register to ask for an active quest.

A "farm" is generated spawining on some sort of "arena node" that activates on the borders of each area. Both sides are given the quest, destination and a time limit to get there and claim it. It might be populated by monsters or NPCs to start with.

Say there are two hours to get there and claim it. The players can hack it out for the first hour, even joining forces (temporarily) to clear out any beasties. Points are gained for beasties and PCs killed and for areas of the "farm" or area that are considered secured.

At 1 hour 15 min points are tallied. The group that is ahead gets reinforcements. Say seige engine shots directed at/near the opposing players.

At 1 hour 30 min points are tallied. The group that is ahead gets reinforcements. Say NPC guards/allies totalling 50% of the size of the PC group (groups of 4 backed up by 2 NPCs).

At 1 hour 45 min points are tallied. The group that is ahead gets reinforcements. Say NPC guards/allies totalling 150% of the size of the PC group (a group of 4 backed up by 6 NPCs).

At 1 hour 55 min points are tallied. The group that is ahead gets massive reinforcements and the place is overrun by high ranking veteran NPCs on the order of town guards (nigh unkillable).

I'm sure this could be improved...

Razzak · April 2015

ZOS and ESO would benefit from adding a small scale structured PVP. Many that are interested in PVP don't like Cyrodiil, so they don't participate in it.

Molsondry · April 2015

newtinmpls wrote: »

inMorsAeterna wrote: »

<snip of early bits>

4. We want the Devs to fix Cyro, not make a new form of PvP.[/b]
a. They made a BG for E3 in no time. All the mechanics are already in place. I doubt it would be an enormous job to implement a BG.
b. By having alternative forms of PvP they could potentially reduce server load on Cyro.
.

I'd suggested some modification of the daily writs in Cyrodiil here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/151136/suggestion-pvp-4x4-24x24x24-battlegrounds-eso-arenas-be-a-daedric-or-aedric-champion/p3

It went something like this:

What about expanding the daily writs to include competing "claim a farm" or resource type areas?

Think of it this way - two opposing groups from different alliances register to ask for an active quest.

A "farm" is generated spawining on some sort of "arena node" that activates on the borders of each area. Both sides are given the quest, destination and a time limit to get there and claim it. It might be populated by monsters or NPCs to start with.

Say there are two hours to get there and claim it. The players can hack it out for the first hour, even joining forces (temporarily) to clear out any beasties. Points are gained for beasties and PCs killed and for areas of the "farm" or area that are considered secured.

At 1 hour 15 min points are tallied. The group that is ahead gets reinforcements. Say seige engine shots directed at/near the opposing players.

At 1 hour 30 min points are tallied. The group that is ahead gets reinforcements. Say NPC guards/allies totalling 50% of the size of the PC group (groups of 4 backed up by 2 NPCs).

At 1 hour 45 min points are tallied. The group that is ahead gets reinforcements. Say NPC guards/allies totalling 150% of the size of the PC group (a group of 4 backed up by 6 NPCs).

At 1 hour 55 min points are tallied. The group that is ahead gets massive reinforcements and the place is overrun by high ranking veteran NPCs on the order of town guards (nigh unkillable).

I'm sure this could be improved...

The point with small scale pvp is to have fair battle (10v10 or 15v15) with no npc or siege involved and some objective maps . with team based mmr and ranks to build up fair match .....And a duel system also...

Its impossible in cyro.

newtinmpls · April 2015

Molsondry wrote: »

The point with small scale pvp is to have fair battle (10v10 or 15v15) with no npc or siege involved and some objective maps . with team based mmr and ranks to build up fair match .....And a duel system also...

Its impossible in cyro.

If it's supposed to be war - that's a different kettle of fish than a cleaned up pretty arena.

I think Cyrodiil would be the perfect place for carefully instanced/staged battles over node/resources and it's a logical extension to get some NPC support.

I was in Cyrodiil the other day as a member of one faction, in a city that had been taken over by that faction, but had originally been EP. Every so often EP guardsman would suddenly spawn and come after us. Disconcerting as heck, but in a way it did make some sense.

VincentBlanquin · April 2015

point to discuss about is....

when camelot unchained is released, vocal minority in this forum who vote for ava only left eso for it

better be prepared with already working small scale pvp in game, ZOS

joshisanonymous · April 2015

FFS already, no arenas! You can literally play any other MMO if what you want is arenas. They're a balancing nightmare, both for skills and population.

GW2 made PvP almost literally a different game because they couldn't make skills that worked PvE, WvW, and PvP at the same time. Warhammer Online constantly had to switch which type of PvP gave the best rewards because people would just ditch one or the other then those who were left in the empty portion would complain until it got switched again. When we already have issues with balancing Cyrodiil populations, is this really what should be added to the game?

What's perhaps most ironic about this request is that EOS is possibly the easiest persistent PvP game to solo in ever because of sneak. It's ridiculously easy to avoid zergs and the map is huge with tons of nooks and crannies so that even if you're in the middle of a fight you will most likely be passed over by zergs. ZoS clearly went to great lengths to ensure that small scale PvP would be available in Cyrodiil, and it is, and yet people still beg for arenas.

Cinder82 · April 2015

Cogo · April 2015

There is small pvp. All the time.
You have to...look.

What Cyro is not, is WoW arena 5vs5 where gear and rotation is everything.

Don't touch Cyro. Make an arena if you want but keep pvp rewards out of it.
Imperial city will be even cooler when we can gank PvE raiders who havn't understood "we" are the mobs ;-)

Tip, if you want arena so badly, there is 1000 games out there with them.
Leave em out of ESO, but if you must, no power rewards from it.

joshisanonymous · April 2015

Razzak wrote: »

ZOS and ESO would benefit from adding a small scale structured PVP. Many that are interested in PVP don't like Cyrodiil, so they don't participate in it.

Seriously, how many people who are big enough PvP fans that they'd make ample use of arenas are at the same time not big enough PvP fans to step foot in Cyrodiil at all? If these people exist, I highly doubt they're anything but a tiny niche of the population.

Valymer · April 2015

joshisanonymous wrote: »

Razzak wrote: »

ZOS and ESO would benefit from adding a small scale structured PVP. Many that are interested in PVP don't like Cyrodiil, so they don't participate in it.

Seriously, how many people who are big enough PvP fans that they'd make ample use of arenas are at the same time not big enough PvP fans to step foot in Cyrodiil at all? If these people exist, I highly doubt they're anything but a tiny niche of the population.

Probably the same people who get so annoyed by the crippling server lag in Cyrodiil that they give up on PvP altogether.

drogon1 · April 2015

[/quote] Battleground type pvp sucks in my humble opinion. If I wanted no real surprises or variation in an instanced zone that goes poof after 10 minutes and is a small landmass. I could go play an fps. I play RvR pvp because it has no magical set definitive ending time or condition, and is persistent while offering all types of pvp from roaming small group, solo or duo, zerging, sieges, small skilled strike forces, ambushing, a huge terrain with travel routes, and some pve even to do if you want to still be able to have pvp happen instead of being 100% safe in pve zones.

Progression in bg's? You're describing how Cyrodiil works right now. Most start out by zerging around in huge groups where they aren't individually as important to the fight while new players. Then often they branch out as they learn to play, not dying to siege fire constantly (many seem to get stuck on that one hehe), and figuring out how the flow of combat tends to go. They then try making their own groups, usually smaller as they become more skilled and some from there go on to do strike force groups as they become great players, and solo/duo monsters the like of which causes cries for nerfs amongst the unskilled or people not understanding game mechanics

. Some don't, and just zerg, gradually becoming a little better but not going off much or in smaller groups on their own. That's fine, too, if they're enjoying themselves. And for the big bad wolves? Well, more prey

.[/quote]

^This imho also.

seanvwolf · April 2015

inMorsAeterna wrote: »

2. During peak hours PvP is unplayable because of server lag. It would give us a lag free place to PvP while Cyro is laggy and broken.

This is the only reason needed to get this implemented. Everything else is just fluff.

Valymer · April 2015

seanvwolf wrote: »

inMorsAeterna wrote: »

2. During peak hours PvP is unplayable because of server lag. It would give us a lag free place to PvP while Cyro is laggy and broken.

This is the only reason needed to get this implemented. Everything else is just fluff.

Ah, the voice of reason. How sweet your sound.

vkayne_ESO · April 2015