- = Sorcs were not nerfed = -

TehMagnus

They are actually more useful than before.

"But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, global nerf.
"But Negate was nerfed": It wasn't really needed anywhere anyways in PVE and was overpowered in PVP (wher sorcs feel stronger than b4, those that know how to play anyways).
"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.

Conclusion:
Sorc wasn't nerfed. At best you can say it still sucks as much as before, and IMO it's too soon to tell .

Now please stop spamming the forum with your QQ posts and biased polls. Ask for buffs I can understand, but crying and complaining about "nerfs" just because you're frustrated that you're still not OP is annoying and counter-productive. Remember that the game just basically relaunched and people are still testing stuff. Instead of complaining over here, your time would be better spent trying to create a good build or figuring out and giving feedback on some aspects that could help buffing the class a little bit.

Edit:
A class viability isn't determined by comparing Healing/damage/CC capacities between 1.5 and 1.6 it's determined by the overall usefulness of the class in 1.6 compared to the overall usefulness of the class in 1.5 and after less than 2 weeks of 1.6 it's too soon to say that Sorcs where nerfed in PVE since we are barely scratching the surface of the new leaderboard system.

KhajitFurTrader

My sentiments exactly.

Sacadon

Complaining about the complainers? And in some way, maybe I'm complaining about them with this post. Yeah that's it.

Messy1

OP can you please correct the typo in your title? Mostly i agree though.

LtCrunch

Sorcs are still pulling more DPS on average than magicka NBs, so they're not even bottom of the DPS scale like some would have you believe. I created and leveled my Sorc because of update 6 and it's already my new main. I have no interest going back to my NB at this point. Both builds are tank specs btw, and the Sorc is much,much more versatile than my NB tank ever wished he could be.

Vahrokh

Brandalf wrote: »

Sorcs are still pulling more DPS on average than magicka NBs, so they're not even bottom of the DPS scale like some would have you believe. I created and leveled my Sorc because of update 6 and it's already my new main. I have no interest going back to my NB at this point. Both builds are tank specs btw, and the Sorc is much,much more versatile than my NB tank ever wished he could be.

Patch 1.6 has been about:

1) Making us re-grind gear, re-learn specs and encounters so ZoS could buy time (without adding new content) and do their console release.

2) Stopping magicka specced non sorc classes wear like mages and also be better mages than the "mages" themselves.

So, yes, your NB nerf has been planned.

LtCrunch

Vahrokh wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

Sorcs are still pulling more DPS on average than magicka NBs, so they're not even bottom of the DPS scale like some would have you believe. I created and leveled my Sorc because of update 6 and it's already my new main. I have no interest going back to my NB at this point. Both builds are tank specs btw, and the Sorc is much,much more versatile than my NB tank ever wished he could be.

Patch 1.6 has been about:

1) Making us re-grind gear, re-learn specs and encounters so ZoS could buy time (without adding new content) and do their console release.

2) Stopping magicka specced non sorc classes wear like mages and also be better mages than the "mages" themselves.

So, yes, your NB nerf has been planned.

My NB was not nerfed. I'm not sure how you got that impression from my post. Hell if anything the NB makes an even better tank now than it did prior to update 6, I just prefer the Sorcerer. That's all.

ZRage

There are some issues with sorc and you can't deny it, look at leaderboards, either cyro or PvE is where templars / DK's reign.
It's not terrible but still not perfect for instance at 110cp warlock + seducer set all enchantments into cost reduction and potion spam I run out of magicka pretty fast I just wonder how terrible it is without full LA set and so much investment into magicka cost reduction.

Hypertionb14_ESO

ZRage wrote: »

There are some issues with sorc and you can't deny it, look at leaderboards, either cyro or PvE is where templars / DK's reign.
It's not terrible but still not perfect for instance at 110cp warlock + seducer set all enchantments into cost reduction and potion spam I run out of magicka pretty fast I just wonder how terrible it is without full LA set and so much investment into magicka cost reduction.

i think the point of this topic is..

Sorcs are no better or no worse off than they were. they always were bad in compairison.

TehMagnus

ZRage wrote: »

There are some issues with sorc and you can't deny it, look at leaderboards, either cyro or PvE is where templars / DK's reign.
It's not terrible but still not perfect for instance at 110cp warlock + seducer set all enchantments into cost reduction and potion spam I run out of magicka pretty fast I just wonder how terrible it is without full LA set and so much investment into magicka cost reduction.

Nobody is denying there are issues, but sorc is not worst of in 1.6 than it was in 1.5. As for your build, if you're using warlock & seducer in PVE at least, you can't be having good results in 1.6.

bloodenragedb14_ESO

some builds feel weaker, some stronger.....way stronger.....im soloing things i shouldnt be able to lately wiht my sorc

Vahrokh

Brandalf wrote: »

My NB was not nerfed. I'm not sure how you got that impression from my post. Hell if anything the NB makes an even better tank now than it did prior to update 6, I just prefer the Sorcerer. That's all.

Well, the "Sorcs are still pulling more DPS on average than magicka NBs" gave me the impression.

Speaking about tanks, have you tried tanking stuff in AA and HR on your sorc? I have had a guild mate tank them with his NB (before 1.6) and I wonder these days if sorcs could do the same.

Vahrokh

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

ZRage wrote: »

There are some issues with sorc and you can't deny it, look at leaderboards, either cyro or PvE is where templars / DK's reign.
It's not terrible but still not perfect for instance at 110cp warlock + seducer set all enchantments into cost reduction and potion spam I run out of magicka pretty fast I just wonder how terrible it is without full LA set and so much investment into magicka cost reduction.

i think the point of this topic is..

Sorcs are no better or no worse off than they were. they always were bad in compairison.

Imo they have one worse thing now: before 1.6 since a sorc could not go beyond certain numbers anyway, we could entertrain "fun specs" that came close to peak performance but allowed a LOT of fun and utility.
In example, I could off-heal and AoE without losing performance. I could save from a wipe by healing the tank and ressing people.
Plus, Negate was more powerful and easy to get up. I was useful and more often.

Now I feel less useful than before. Therefore it comes natural that with less utility, people would look for "compensation" somewhere else, namely at DPS.

Of course if someone got a patch 1.6 build that would me let offheal, AoE and single target DPS "all in one" that is not a DPS travesty, then please tell me ASAP!

LtCrunch

Vahrokh wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

My NB was not nerfed. I'm not sure how you got that impression from my post. Hell if anything the NB makes an even better tank now than it did prior to update 6, I just prefer the Sorcerer. That's all.

Well, the "Sorcs are still pulling more DPS on average than magicka NBs" gave me the impression.

Speaking about tanks, have you tried tanking stuff in AA and HR on your sorc? I have had a guild mate tank them with his NB (before 1.6) and I wonder these days if sorcs could do the same.

Ahh, fair enough. That was more to point out that Sorc s are not as bad in comparison to other classes as some think.

I haven't yet as my Sorc's is only VR1, still working on gearing, stat allocation, etc. It has the potential to be the best tank in a group setting in the game, but it's also a much more active build than your typical DK/NB mitigation tank. It requires high level play and is not for those who like to faceroll.

LtCrunch

ZRage wrote: »

There are some issues with sorc and you can't deny it, look at leaderboards, either cyro or PvE is where templars / DK's reign.
It's not terrible but still not perfect for instance at 110cp warlock + seducer set all enchantments into cost reduction and potion spam I run out of magicka pretty fast I just wonder how terrible it is without full LA set and so much investment into magicka cost reduction.

I never run OOM n my Sorcerer and my build uses nothing but magicka and I'm wearing two pieces of heavy. I actually fomd it quiet difficult ult to go OOM now.

Psychobunni

Does the OP come with #'s? Or anything at all more than words to show that complaints aren't justified? Or is it just a complaint about complaints?

Hypertionb14_ESO

Vahrokh wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

ZRage wrote: »

There are some issues with sorc and you can't deny it, look at leaderboards, either cyro or PvE is where templars / DK's reign.
It's not terrible but still not perfect for instance at 110cp warlock + seducer set all enchantments into cost reduction and potion spam I run out of magicka pretty fast I just wonder how terrible it is without full LA set and so much investment into magicka cost reduction.

i think the point of this topic is..

Sorcs are no better or no worse off than they were. they always were bad in compairison.

Imo they have one worse thing now: before 1.6 since a sorc could not go beyond certain numbers anyway, we could entertrain "fun specs" that came close to peak performance but allowed a LOT of fun and utility.
In example, I could off-heal and AoE without losing performance. I could save from a wipe by healing the tank and ressing people.
Plus, Negate was more powerful and easy to get up. I was useful and more often.

Now I feel less useful than before. Therefore it comes natural that with less utility, people would look for "compensation" somewhere else, namely at DPS.

Of course if someone got a patch 1.6 build that would me let offheal, AoE and single target DPS "all in one" that is not a DPS travesty, then please tell me ASAP!

i never said i agreed with the topic..

nerf to surge was the more devastating than the changes to bolt escape..

nerf to Negate made it useless where it was most powerful in PvE, it used to be an important part of some trail fights...

nerf to Familar made any buff to it pointless

but i think the real killer... is that we didnt get anything that noticeably helped with magicka builds specifically apart from the duration buff to splash...

crystal shard still sucks and now is worse off since its closest compairison was solar flare whcih was buffed to the *** moon.

Mines is still worthless in PvE and Niche at best in PvP

no one uses exchange still.... (you lose dps if you channel it! OMG ITS HORRID)

oh and Mages Fury is still the worst Execute in the game.

it was nerfed in places that are quite severe... and while it was bad off in the first place, its worse off now overall.

ZRage

Brandalf wrote: »

ZRage wrote: »

There are some issues with sorc and you can't deny it, look at leaderboards, either cyro or PvE is where templars / DK's reign.
It's not terrible but still not perfect for instance at 110cp warlock + seducer set all enchantments into cost reduction and potion spam I run out of magicka pretty fast I just wonder how terrible it is without full LA set and so much investment into magicka cost reduction.

I never run OOM n my Sorcerer and my build uses nothing but magicka and I'm wearing two pieces of heavy. I actually fomd it quiet difficult ult to go OOM now.

That's cool but I was talking about PvP gank situation and not PvE content try using bolt scape 4-5 times and see how it goes :> On average with max cost reduction you would need around 100.000 magicka regen per minute to be stable w/o OOM so I don't even know what sort of think you talk about

Merlin13KAGL

TehMagnus wrote: »

They are actually more useful than before.

"But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, global nerf.
"But Negate was nerfed": It wasn't really needed anywhere anyways in PVE and was overpowered in PVP (wher sorcs feel stronger than b4, those that know how to play anyways).
"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.

Conclusion:
Sorc wasn't nerfed. At best you can say it still sucks as much as before, and IMO it's too soon to tell .

Now please stop spamming the forum with your QQ posts and biased polls. Ask for buffs I can understand, but crying and complaining about "nerfs" just because you're frustrated that you're still not OP is annoying and counter-productive. Remember that the game just basically relaunched and people are still testing stuff. Instead of complaining over here, your time would be better spent trying to create a good build or figuring out and giving feedback on some aspects that could help buffing the class a little bit.

Someone peed in the coffee cup. You then offer the glass half empty/glass half full philosophy.

I'm not arguing the truthfulness, I'm just amused at how you phrased it.

Dymence

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

crystal shard still sucks and now is worse off since its closest compairison was solar flare whcih was buffed to the *** moon.

Really? What do you base it on that crystal shard still sucks? My crystal frags can hit for 24k+ on crits.

ZRage

Dymence wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

crystal shard still sucks and now is worse off since its closest compairison was solar flare whcih was buffed to the *** moon.

Really? What do you base it on that crystal shard still sucks? My crystal frags can hit for 24k+ on crits.

Top sorcs in cyrodil crit around 10-13k into Light Armor zero res builds but here is the guy who can do 24k ))

Anyway damage isn't everything if we are talking about PvP, there is 2-3 sec window on crystal where enemy can just block or dodge it, that's why it sucks, not to mention nearly second delay after proc cast, then there are reflective scales of DK but that's a story for another day.

LtCrunch

ZRage wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

ZRage wrote: »

There are some issues with sorc and you can't deny it, look at leaderboards, either cyro or PvE is where templars / DK's reign.
It's not terrible but still not perfect for instance at 110cp warlock + seducer set all enchantments into cost reduction and potion spam I run out of magicka pretty fast I just wonder how terrible it is without full LA set and so much investment into magicka cost reduction.

I never run OOM n my Sorcerer and my build uses nothing but magicka and I'm wearing two pieces of heavy. I actually fomd it quiet difficult ult to go OOM now.

That's cool but I was talking about PvP gank situation and not PvE content try using bolt scape 4-5 times and see how it goes :> On average with max cost reduction you would need around 100.000 magicka regen per minute to be stable w/o OOM so I don't even know what sort of think you talk about

I do both PVP and PVE, still find it difficult to run OOM, also required magicka regeneration would be completely dependant on how often you cast spells and which spells you cast, so your assertion regarding regeneration is largely nonsense that has way too many variables to factor. Keep trying.

abuniffpreub18_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

They are actually more useful than before.

"But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, global nerf.
"But Negate was nerfed": It wasn't really needed anywhere anyways in PVE and was overpowered in PVP (wher sorcs feel stronger than b4, those that know how to play anyways).
"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.

Would you post your build please, thank you

ZRage

Brandalf wrote: »

ZRage wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

ZRage wrote: »

There are some issues with sorc and you can't deny it, look at leaderboards, either cyro or PvE is where templars / DK's reign.
It's not terrible but still not perfect for instance at 110cp warlock + seducer set all enchantments into cost reduction and potion spam I run out of magicka pretty fast I just wonder how terrible it is without full LA set and so much investment into magicka cost reduction.

I never run OOM n my Sorcerer and my build uses nothing but magicka and I'm wearing two pieces of heavy. I actually fomd it quiet difficult ult to go OOM now.

That's cool but I was talking about PvP gank situation and not PvE content try using bolt scape 4-5 times and see how it goes :> On average with max cost reduction you would need around 100.000 magicka regen per minute to be stable w/o OOM so I don't even know what sort of think you talk about

I do both PVP and PVE, still find it difficult to run OOM, also required magicka regeneration would be completely dependant on how often you cast spells and which spells you cast, so your assertion regarding regeneration is largely nonsense that has way too many variables to factor. Keep trying.

How many factors you need, if you want max out your overall mastery in PvP you need to cast as many spells as you can, the rest is the matter of which and when. Like I said on average you would burn over 100.000 per minute in such situation and unless you have engine set you will have magicka problems even with mass regen and cost reduction form other sources. And it's crucial because of the bolt escape cost that can raise up to 5.000 per cast.

spoqster

@TehMagnus I am starting a new sorc and can't decide between Breton and Imperial. But since I am not a huge fan of light armor and destro staffs, what's your take on Imperial Sorcs?

LtCrunch

ZRage wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

ZRage wrote: »

Brandalf wrote: »

ZRage wrote: »

There are some issues with sorc and you can't deny it, look at leaderboards, either cyro or PvE is where templars / DK's reign.
It's not terrible but still not perfect for instance at 110cp warlock + seducer set all enchantments into cost reduction and potion spam I run out of magicka pretty fast I just wonder how terrible it is without full LA set and so much investment into magicka cost reduction.

I never run OOM n my Sorcerer and my build uses nothing but magicka and I'm wearing two pieces of heavy. I actually fomd it quiet difficult ult to go OOM now.

That's cool but I was talking about PvP gank situation and not PvE content try using bolt scape 4-5 times and see how it goes :> On average with max cost reduction you would need around 100.000 magicka regen per minute to be stable w/o OOM so I don't even know what sort of think you talk about

I do both PVP and PVE, still find it difficult to run OOM, also required magicka regeneration would be completely dependant on how often you cast spells and which spells you cast, so your assertion regarding regeneration is largely nonsense that has way too many variables to factor. Keep trying.

How many factors you need, if you want max out your overall mastery in PvP you need to cast as many spells as you can, the rest is the matter of which and when. Like I said on average you would burn over 100.000 per minute in such situation and unless you have engine set you will have magicka problems even with mass regen and cost reduction form other sources. And it's crucial because of the bolt escape cost that can raise up to 5.000 per cast.

I have no problems with magicka regen or going OOM, yet you continue to try and convince me that I should. Maybe you're doing something wrong.

ZRage

Maybe you need to get to VR 14 to figure out that spell cost increases with veteran ranks?

Tankqull

TehMagnus wrote: »

ZRage wrote: »

There are some issues with sorc and you can't deny it, look at leaderboards, either cyro or PvE is where templars / DK's reign.
It's not terrible but still not perfect for instance at 110cp warlock + seducer set all enchantments into cost reduction and potion spam I run out of magicka pretty fast I just wonder how terrible it is without full LA set and so much investment into magicka cost reduction.

Nobody is denying there are issues, but sorc is not worst of in 1.6 than it was in 1.5. As for your build, if you're using warlock & seducer in PVE at least, you can't be having good results in 1.6.

they are - maybe not in PvE where nobody wants them anyway (being in the worst possible position -nobody wants you- is hard to "nerf"). but making 100% of the former unblockable spells in PvP blockable is a damn hughe nerf that has not been compensated by anything - dmg increasement or what ever.
the point that they are range spells leads to the problem that blocking them nearly not cost any stamina and with the CP system as it is everybody will have more and more stamina awailable for blocking.
than we have nice spammable shields, no dmg and no escape option as every gapcloser covers more range than our gap creator and we will see more and more of this:

and die afterwards as we couldnt kill our opponent allthough he was in finishing range as we couldn´t get through momentum/regeneration and die miserably afterwards...

Dymence

ZRage wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

crystal shard still sucks and now is worse off since its closest compairison was solar flare whcih was buffed to the *** moon.

Really? What do you base it on that crystal shard still sucks? My crystal frags can hit for 24k+ on crits.

Top sorcs in cyrodil crit around 10-13k into Light Armor zero res builds but here is the guy who can do 24k ))

Anyway damage isn't everything if we are talking about PvP, there is 2-3 sec window on crystal where enemy can just block or dodge it, that's why it sucks, not to mention nearly second delay after proc cast, then there are reflective scales of DK but that's a story for another day.

I'm not talking about PVP.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Amen OP. I think it's mostly that people are still playing with the same setup as before 1.6 and you really do need reevaluate what spells you're using including morphs. There are some really great CPs as well that specifically help elemental damage if you want to focus on the storm calling line. I also find the pets to be a lot more fun to use especially since my "tank" can taunt now.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Talking strictly PVE.... what I can say is : MY sorc was destroyed.

Perhaps not all sorcs, maybe not your sorc, maybe not anyone's sorc, but this I don't care, I'm talking about MY sorc and MY sorc was destroyed.

In 1.5 it used to be able to sustain 900-1K DPS and to have an off heal in the 2nd bar, which was very much appreciated in many groups and compensated for the somewhat lower DPS.

In 1.6 with the same gear as 1.5 I died easily and achieved a ridiculous 4K DPS. So I looked and tried new gear, skills and so on... learned a completely new rotation, following new templates and tutorials, and finally manage some 8K-9K DPS, but this time WITHOUT an off-heal !! What use am I to a group now ? They're better off with another class. They don't reject me, I'm the one who refuses to be the useless one in a group. I only run normal daily pledges now, I don't join groups for vet dungeons, let alone trials. What sensible raid leader would seek a sorc now for trials ?

My sorc is not a lively thing, it's a virtual thing, still it's not a toolbox. I am really reluctant to have to *change* her to that extent and switch to a playstyle that is not "hers" (and that i don't enjoy playing). I *refuse* to use pets because they are absolutely ugly and because it makes no sense. Fighting Molag Bal and Oblivion badasses all game long for finally having to rely on your own "friendly" daedric slaves makes no sense at all. I also *refuse* to play a stamina sorc because that's not the type of character I wanted to play ! I want a magicka sorc !

You mention that all classes have to adapt. That's partly true, but from what I've noticed in my guilds, the effort and amount of change is 1/ less, far less than for sorcs. Most other classes just change their gear and don't even have to touch their skillbars 2/ more rewarding : after adjusting, they feel stronger than before. We magicka sorcs feel AT BEST the same as before. It's not fun to adjust and re-learn for... just the same (AT BEST).

I have a VR2 templar as well. I did not need any adjustments and feels stronger than before. BUT he's still in the leveling solo zones so it's not a valid comparison I guess. Still, I don't like to play him. I like my sorc, I want to play my magicka sorc.


If at least we could understand WHY it was changed so drastically ! Some aspects I understand (light armor protecting significantly less than medium or heavy is a change I understand and support, I also approve of not being able the re-up the ulti outside of combat) but most changes I don't understand at all : WHY was there a need to change the negate ?? why don't the crit matter any more ?? ...

I'm not arguing / demanding / threatening nor "QQing" as you like to name it; but as a matter of fact, MY sorc was destroyed, I don't feel any incentive for playing my "new" sorc, nor playing my templar, so for now I totally enjoy the justice system and the improved graphics of 1.6, BUT sooner or later I will probably log in less often and simply leave the game.