draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

I think this topic is just a brainstorming for free to help ZOS. They'll never comment on it, just read and take what it's useful.

While I don't mind having my ideas crowd-sourced for free, it would be polite to at least give us some feedback on our opinions. After all, we're not only paying customers but we are offering our feedback/brainstorming to ZoS at our own expense. Some level of gratitude or at least some updates on the process they're involving us in would do a world of good for our temperaments. Instead, we get to be paying customers and feel mostly ignored...
And if we give them a good idea, we receive no recognition or compensation, they just implement it? Maybe my skin's too thin, but that feels sort of degrading.

I double agree to that !
There is two ideas in this topic to balance a bit this :
-Toggable transformation
-Ulti-drain transformation
I don't agree with the toggle one, it does not fit the werewolf curse nature BUT we both agree that the actual ultimate system does not work (in addition to a broken devour...)

I think a LOT more needs to be done than this. The damage output needs to be increased drastically, for one. I do like the idea of the ult-drain transformation instead of the horribly broken timer/devour system that currently exists, but it is far from the sort of fix that is required to make werewolf viable and useful.
My first post was an essay unto itself and I'm sure even if all of what I said was implemented werewolf would still not be worthwhile. It needs A LOT of work done to it, in an extreme way... Every aspect of it needs to be retuned. Even some of the suggestions that would make werewolf seem overpowered (a poster recommended making werewolves totally immune to all forms of CC while in werewolf form, which I think would actually be a step in the right direction) would still just be the tip of the ice-berg of getting werewolf into viable territory.

ZOS - Please give us an update on this topic. Are you going to implement if for update 5? What changes you gonna implement.

Give us at least some update, it has been almost a month.

Thank you

BR @WW Donny

Also with all the new goodies please FIX THE BUGGED skills thanks !

Transform stil has 3 known issues with certain skills that interupt the Transform

Make it a faster animation or make the Stun/Fear instant before you transform,

Pounce still doing the kneel/potion Bug and Devour is STILL 6 MONTHS LATER bugged, Devour will not let me eat from one corpse after another it has to be every 3rd death this is Not the way it was portrayed or intended please fix this or make it a Killing move that only activate at 15% health and you Bite them with your jaws and rip there heart out or / throat etc

natewook wrote: »

i think they have the point after ten pages of ideas for PVP PVE lol but no one's but me and myself saying any thing about werewolf's lacking rp and so werewolf rp wont get improved if no one's paying attention to lack of emotes and lack of individuality between werewolf's and the almost nonexistent werewolf content and worse of all is the werewolf run animation and yes i know that i'm asking for an arm and leg but this is the most lacking skill/quest line in game and so the rp part is all most not there

The worst part is that the four paws sprinting is actually implemented in the game, look at the Werewolves NPC that run or look at your character when you evade, it run on four ! It's a little thing but it would be so great for the gameplay...

Otherwise, there is a lot of work to do to balance that curse and it would have been great from the Dev if they could talk a bit about what they plan other than the original post. Picking ideas is the beginning but to continu to walk on the road of balance you'll need to discuss with the community.
6 months of abuse against the werewolf has been harsh, we need some pat ZOS

@Iduyenn : I didn't read anything like that in the original post, they just said that your gears (weapons?) will now affect our damage output will a savage strenght scaled on weapon damage.
If they do as you say, it'll be crap because all werewolves will wear medium armor

In fact that when a human transform, he lost all his gears, the damages and armor would only be scaled on level and not on the gears (The value of a purple dual weapon and medium armor of our level for exemple). In this case, that would not bind people to wears an certain type of armor or weapons to be optimum for werewolf carnage.
Werewolf don't need weapons, they ARE their own weapon !

"So i would be ok with it, when WW are restricted to cloths only."
^ this made me lol... WTH WW in pijama? WW dont wear armor, then they wont wear pijamas eighter.

Kypho wrote: »

"So i would be ok with it, when WW are restricted to cloths only."
^ this made me lol... WTH WW in pijama? WW dont wear armor, then they wont wear pijamas eighter.

I meant that in this way: How do you explain a person with heavy armor, turning in to a hary beast? Where did the armor go?
I know, this is a fluffy discussion and not the focus here... let`s just immagine, that the beast has burried it`s stuff under a rock and returns, after beeing finished slaughtering innocent meat.
I was thinking of alternative possibilities to arrange your attributes and setboni. (Like one invisible talisman or a tatoo, where you have your own character-interface... oh wait... perks!).
But yea, due to age restrictions we can`t hang around naked (until we find new clothes )
This is why it will stay the way it is (and i am ok with that too) ^^

"But... but Jacob had to wear his cloths in his mouth while..."

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo ...........

No but seriously, i was just thinking about some race/class/class pasives and their impact on WW...

@‌draeganb16_ESO The whole problem is balancing and diversity; You have to give the player differet choices how to change his character, make it individual...
By scaling it to the level (and not to things like armor), you would have a disadvantage to other player, since your character level is something very static. You don`t have those combinations on armortype, setitem, quality and enchantments.
That is why it would be ok to wear cloths or any kind of armor... because it wouldn`t matter. But unfortunately/fortunately it does:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[ ...] We want to make a few changes to damage scaling [ ...] ... allow your gear upgrades to affect damage output in a more meaningful way. Savage Strength will offer a flat increase to power[ ...] .... We want light and heavy attacks to additionally scale off of weapon power (instead of just maximum stamina), and for Pounce and its morphs to scale off of weapon power instead of spell power.
[ ...]

I tested it: My whole weaponpower (from set, passives) were transferred 1:1 into my WW form. So was my weapon-crit gained by medium armor bonus.
The question is, how effective those 33% crit are!
Because if you want to go to the limit, you will have to wear at least 5 pieces of medium armor.


Edit:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/116421/which-class-for-werewolf#latest

i guess no one cares about this but someone wrote something a long time ago and i couldn't agree more "Ikata_Stormcloud Soul Shriven
May 15
Just my two cents from another perspective.

TL:DR Make Werewolf a toggle with a timer that only runs down in combat so us RPers can actually RP as Werewolves


I've been an RPer for many years now, from tabletop, to forum, to in games such as ESO, and while I am aware that most game developers cater to the PvPers and the PvEers first some thought should be given to us RPers as well. (As an aside I do think ZOS have done a modicum of that with the amount of character customisations, the revisit able lore library and so forth)

With that in mind I'll give some context - I've had the same Orc in almost every game I have RPed, or at least incarnations of him, with a few things that always, always remain the same:
- He blends Melee combat with destruction magic (usually heavily shock focused, with either a two handed axe/sword or dual axes/daggers)
- He wears a 'medium' armour set (a blend of furs, mail and leather)
- He's bald
- He has a HEAVY affinity with the Wolf. (In WoW that was done via the Frostwolf clan, the Shaman class (it fit with the rest) along with the many wolf visage head pieces available. In the ES games he's always had lycanthropy. So on and so forth.)
The most successful ES incarnation has to have been my Skyrim Character - with the Stalhrim light set, Dragonbone Axes and a LOT of graft into enchantment, smithing and alchemy I managed to create my Orc almost perfectly. The elemental magic manifesting though Shock and Frost enchants as well as having Shock spells as openers to fights, with my ultimate means of approaching difficult fights being Beast Form, coupled with Beserker rage it was almost unstoppable and once you had skill investment you could keep it up almost indefinitely as long as you had enough corpses to feast upon. If I had to make a guess as to the longest time I spent roaming the wilds as a Werewolf I'd probably put it close to three hours, rampaging through bandit camps, dungeons etc, without ever losing the form. This all of course was wonderful and fit perfectly with the character in my head - there was just one small downside, I was alone.

When I saw we'd have access to the Werewolf skill line in ESO I rejoiced! Finally I'd be able to create the perfect incarnation AND have people I could share it with, both in random RP encounters (he's an Orc following the Code of Mauloch, he takes most insults as a reason to cave a few faces in, as well as honouring Hircine through the hunt) where if things were going sour i.e his fighting prowess and Storm magick wasn't cutting it - BOOM - Werewolf form to either flee (very unlikely) or savage the unsuspecting bar patron that thought it would be funny to call him an ugly brute - and of course RP though the fall out of such a transformation however it would play out. As well as through pack RP; organised hunts, pack meetings, fights to decide who is alpha etc etc.
The ideas in my mind, the excitement at the endless possibilities finally open to me in this MMO were euphoric. Until I got the form.

After leveling at a fairly intense rate during Early Access, while still drinking in the world and the lore around me, I finally got to Bangkorai to begin my hunt for that elusive Werewolf bite. Of course initially that was an utter disaster as I was unaware of the moon phases, and how that affected the spawns. I spent a good three hours running around like a madman, naked (for I didn't fancy damaging my gear if I did find the wolves) and spinning around and around looking all different directions... For four days that continued, the pattern ended up being I'd sleep during ESO days and have alarms set for ESO nights to check for spawns. Then finally after four days of nothing there they were. Those glorious Wolf like humanoids. I rejoiced, as with hands trembling from excitement I charged into the fray, immediately taking several big hits and seeing a disease pop up on my buff bar. I hurried from the Wayshine into Evermore, accepted the quest and was on my way. - I wont spoil the quest here for those that may not have done it -

Needless to say I was anxious to test my hard earned Werewolf form so I farmed a few packs, got the ultimate and was ready to rampage... I don't think I need to tell you how cripplingly disappointed I was.

I wont go into what I think needs to change for the combat mechanics as I believe others here have covered that very well and the point of all the stuff above isn't about combat. Instead I will gear what I am about to suggest towards RP; pooling from several of my guild mates as we'd all have the desire to RP a werewolf.

Make the form a toggle. Please, I beg of you!
If any of you have any RP experience you'll know that it is often a very timely process, especially as there is no 'duel' function for those people that would rather settle in character disputes with actual combat, emote fights can sometimes take hours if the combatants are evenly matched. Meaning the meagre duration of the WW form currently leaves us woefully lacking in time to actually utilise our gift in character. Not to mention the idea of Pack meetings, hunts, setting up territories, patrolling those territories etc etc is simply impossible. Sure we -can- do it in our human forms but in my mind one of, if not the, most important factor within RP is immersion and lets face it if we can't be in our WW form while RPing as a WW - what's the point?

Another big attraction of the WW form is the increased run speed; in Skyrim, playing as an RPer, I refused to fast travel, nor would I ride a horse because for the most part I think Orcs look ridiculous on horseback, so if I needed to get somewhere in a hurry - I'd take to four legs and begin the run, stopping now and then to kill and devour a deer/elf or unsuspecting hunter/lone human(oid) in order to maintain my form. Yet I'll never take on my WW form simply to move faster in ESO because the mechanics just simply don't allow it. If it was a toggle I'd be able to do so.

"But indefinite Werewolf form would be overpowered!" I hear people cry: honestly with the state its in at the moment it would put us at a disadvantage. Utilising Atropos' The Reaver build I have so much sustain in my human form while in combat that most of the time the only way I will die is if I pull slightly too many mobs while in my single-target loadout and even then the chances are if it's under 8 I'll survive as long as I play safe. Heck while travelling though Reaper's March at vr4 I soloed ALL of the worldbosses without an issue. Had I been in my Werewolf form I doubt I'd manage that at all. However if you insist there MUST be a timer for Werewolf form, make it ONLY run down in combat This gives us RPers what we want, the ability to properly RP in our Lycanthropic forms without having to constantly go off and farm more Ultimate (which I might add - as we're often not in level appropriate zones for the sake of actually making sense - can be a very very difficult process) while maintaining a 'fairness'
Such would also give us more usefulness in Cyrodil as we could properly act as scouting parties/Pack assault groups yet would be limited to the time we could spend in combat. It would -also- mean that devour would actually be worth doing as we'd not lose most of the time gained from devouring while devouring.

Obviously I understand that RP isn't top priority but we pay our sub the same as anyone else and I think certain issues need to be addressed."
and then someone else said "Allow us to customize our werewolf one time. Nothing major or rather to the extent of creating a character when you start the game. However, fur color, SOME size adjustment, eye color, shaggy coat, slight height scaler? Something - hell, even add in a money cost to it after the first free adjustment" sry for the wall of text but these thing's need to brought to the teso teams attention i mean werewolf role playing relay needs help and as long as you guys cheap going on about pvp pve and ignoring werewolf's rp problems you will be able pvp pve as a werewolf but that's it, why ask just to fix the pvp pve when you can also ask for rp so you can get the fully immersive werewolf.

set44ub17_ESO1 wrote: »

Sounds pretty good, can we get rid of the poison and disease weakness, is this part of the lore? I thought werewolves were immune to all disease?

...

There is no disease weakness, only poison. And there is a poison weakness because both vampirism and lycanthropy are supposed to have an elemental weakness as a drawback. Vampirism has fire weakness, lycanthropy has poison.

As of now, the poison weakness only furthers in making the skill tree weaker than it is, however when it's buffed and changed to where it's supposed to be, the weakness will make more sense.

No clue if it's part of the lore. As far as I know, just part of attempted combat balance.

Castle wrote: »

We did make a few changes that make the "werewolf play style" more viable.

• “Negative” effects will no longer affect you while Transforming. No more wasted Ultimate because a Disorient hits you halfway through the Transformation!
• We've reduced the cooldown of Devour and made it so it is no longer Interrupted by taking damage. Additionally, it will be usable on a few more creature types.
• Being a Werewolf increases your Stamina, in either form.
• Using your Heavy Attack will restore Stamina, the same as Weapon Skill line Heavy Attacks.
• To go with that, we changed the Pursuit Passive so it increases the amount of Stamina restored with Heavy Attacks.
• The Pack Leader Morph will add to the "Werewolf" counter for the Werewolf and any Werewolf allies nearby instead of adding Ultimate.

We look forward to these changes hitting PTS and getting your Feedback soon

What happened to all the new skills you announced a month ago, the self heal, the area attack with disease and so on?

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

Castle wrote: »

We did make a few changes that make the "werewolf play style" more viable.

• “Negative” effects will no longer affect you while Transforming. No more wasted Ultimate because a Disorient hits you halfway through the Transformation!
• We've reduced the cooldown of Devour and made it so it is no longer Interrupted by taking damage. Additionally, it will be usable on a few more creature types.
• Being a Werewolf increases your Stamina, in either form.
• Using your Heavy Attack will restore Stamina, the same as Weapon Skill line Heavy Attacks.
• To go with that, we changed the Pursuit Passive so it increases the amount of Stamina restored with Heavy Attacks.
• The Pack Leader Morph will add to the "Werewolf" counter for the Werewolf and any Werewolf allies nearby instead of adding Ultimate.

We look forward to these changes hitting PTS and getting your Feedback soon

What happened to all the new skills you announced a month ago, the self heal, the area attack with disease and so on?

I think this stuff is in addition to those. I hope.

Castle wrote: »

Hello, everyone!
We wanted to let everyone know that we have read through this thread and taken steps to further improve the Werewolf Skill Line based on your feedback. You folks have made some great suggestions and offered some valuable insight into potential changes. Whenever possible, we've used suggestions in this thread as guidelines for improving what we had already put in place when we announced these changes.

That said, many suggestions you have made are not currently possible, although they may be in the future. The biggest of these is that the Werewolf Transformation will remain an Ultimate ability that has a duration, rather than being a Toggle. Making Werewolf into a toggle was the first improvement we wanted to make, but it ended up not being possible due to technical restrictions.

Additionally, we aren't currently adding any werewolf specific emotes or animations, nor are we adding more skins. It is possible we will add these in a future update.

We did make a few changes that make the "werewolf play style" more viable.

• “Negative” effects will no longer affect you while Transforming. No more wasted Ultimate because a Disorient hits you halfway through the Transformation!
• We've reduced the cooldown of Devour and made it so it is no longer Interrupted by taking damage. Additionally, it will be usable on a few more creature types.
• Being a Werewolf increases your Stamina, in either form.
• Using your Heavy Attack will restore Stamina, the same as Weapon Skill line Heavy Attacks.
• To go with that, we changed the Pursuit Passive so it increases the amount of Stamina restored with Heavy Attacks.
• The Pack Leader Morph will add to the "Werewolf" counter for the Werewolf and any Werewolf allies nearby instead of adding Ultimate.

We look forward to these changes hitting PTS and getting your Feedback soon

I'm skeptical that even with the three new skills and the changes listed here werewolf will become a viable skill tree. I'll have to try it out on the PTS but it really seems like far too little, far too late.
It also seems that the Pack Leader morph is becoming even less useful than it was before. This skill was totally broken at release, only to be fixed months later... and now this? I feel sorry for anyone who chose that morph... The boost to the timer must be MASSIVE and the difference between the ultimate cost between berserker and pack leader must also be huge (I'm thinking like 250 ultimate for pack leader versus 400 for berserker) to make this morph comparable if you are removing the ultimate gain from it.
That isn't to say werewolf berserker does good damage (it doesn't) but none of the werewolf forms do good damage at the moment, so that seems to me to be a whole other problem altogether. I will say I barely notice the "attack speed increase" from using werewolf berserker, and it certainly doesn't seem to increase all that much over time... I always assumed it only increased my attack speed marginally and capped out early (10% or less) but it could just as well not be working in any shape or form at all. At least, in all my experience using it, that is how it seems.

Castle wrote: »

Hello, everyone!
We wanted to let everyone know that we have read through this thread and taken steps to further improve the Werewolf Skill Line based on your feedback. You folks have made some great suggestions and offered some valuable insight into potential changes. Whenever possible, we've used suggestions in this thread as guidelines for improving what we had already put in place when we announced these changes.

That said, many suggestions you have made are not currently possible, although they may be in the future. The biggest of these is that the Werewolf Transformation will remain an Ultimate ability that has a duration, rather than being a Toggle. Making Werewolf into a toggle was the first improvement we wanted to make, but it ended up not being possible due to technical restrictions.

Additionally, we aren't currently adding any werewolf specific emotes or animations, nor are we adding more skins. It is possible we will add these in a future update.

We did make a few changes that make the "werewolf play style" more viable.

• “Negative” effects will no longer affect you while Transforming. No more wasted Ultimate because a Disorient hits you halfway through the Transformation!
• We've reduced the cooldown of Devour and made it so it is no longer Interrupted by taking damage. Additionally, it will be usable on a few more creature types.
• Being a Werewolf increases your Stamina, in either form.
• Using your Heavy Attack will restore Stamina, the same as Weapon Skill line Heavy Attacks.
• To go with that, we changed the Pursuit Passive so it increases the amount of Stamina restored with Heavy Attacks.
• The Pack Leader Morph will add to the "Werewolf" counter for the Werewolf and any Werewolf allies nearby instead of adding Ultimate.

We look forward to these changes hitting PTS and getting your Feedback soon

What are the technical limitations preventing you from making the ultimate a toggle rather than a duration?

nice changes, i hope its not all of them. Still far far away compared to vampirism. And still a bit useless with the dmg. And PvP, where aoe and lame CC is 90%, WW doesnt have any protection like Vamps mistform spamming, the dmg reduction passive etc... you can continue with that.

And that is not balance at all...Not even buff to be useful.