Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

TaSheen wrote: »

Hey, guys - did you post about this in the PTS forum? That's likely the best place....

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

I can say the same thing about pressing one button that guarantees me a change of position, hard unavoidable CC, dealing damage, and also breaking cloak and possible use of LoS with one button (see Streak) is also too easy.

What you don't want to notice is that every defensive tactic has a counter and every counter to defensive tactics also has an active counter, not just "wait it out" because waiting it out is hypothetical in this case, as I can very easily bring it to a point where waiting it out is not possible because the potion will still be active or someone else will be using it alternately.

Why was Reflective Scales DK changed? Because it was a hard counter to all ranged skills. Similarly here. Hard counter = bad balance.

NB is finally in a good position after years of being nerfed and overlooked in class reworks, but it still isn't a dominant class in PvP, and such a change will push it down a few notches in the food chain.

The fact that someone can't handle NB on live is solely their fault. For example, I kill the most NB because they are the easiest target for me. It is much harder to kill a DK or a sorc who doesn't want to be killed than an NB.

Oh yeah good old argument "something is strong so nothing else can't be touched". It really doesn't bring much into the discussion. it's like sorc's streak is always an escape goat argument for nb when people talk about cloak and vice versa. And like always the same counter arguments can be used like , streak can be countered with gap closers, regular mobility and it have built in ramping cost increase and You cannot stun someone with CC immunity which can be gained in multiple ways and works against every stun not only streak.

What You don't want to notice is that You are wrong. There is no endless line of counters to counters to counters. For example You gave an example of snares and snare/immobilize immunities. What is the counter to snare immobilize immunity after it's being used? Following the target? That's not a counter that's doing excatly the same what You would be doing if there was no snare aka You wait it out. Snares are being countered by snare immunity abilities and it ends there after that exchange fight returns to normal until snare immunity wears off and snare can be applied again. Also stealth playstyle is way more unique than rest of the combat in ESO so defending it by trying to give example of every other encounter is also not that great argument. When cloak works is the strongest defense in the game it offers both offensive and defensive potential. I find the fact that You find it problematic that You will struggle with more than 1 player using detect pot a bit silly. You should struggle. Like what, You think it's balanced to return to stealth when fighting group of people actively using counters to stealth? It's like expecting to easily outheal group of people constantly applying healing debuffs. There are moments where You simply should die that's how PvP works.

Reflective scales were changed because magicka nb was literally useless in PvP because of that ability. You still seems to not see the difference between ability that is being spammed without drawbacks and something that can be used on cooldown and have drawbacks. Fact that reflective scale was reflecting projectiles wasn't an issue on its own. Fact that it was spammable ability was. Why do You think s&b ulti wasn't changed? It's also reflecting all projectiles and it lasts longer than single use of reflective scales. Because it cannot be spammed. Detect potion even with 1 kilometer range would still not be 100% hard counter, it would be a hard counter with a cooldown. Big difference. And nightblade still have counters to counter detection. You use this as one of Your main arguments but refuse to recognise it here.

Nightblade is in too good position. Fact that some class isn't dominant doesn't mean everything about it is balanced. Good example is streak You've mentioned. You make is to look as extremly powerfull ability making it one of Your counterarguments to defend cloak but somehow magsorc right now is not known as dominant. So how it it than You need to be dominant to have something that is very strong or not?

Nightblades are the easiest targets because majority of people playing them are simply bad players crutching on invisibility thinking of it as "I win button" and they don't even know how to deal with disruption of stealth and all they will be doing will be just trying hard to return to stealth despite having lots of different options. But bad players don't make strong ability a bad one. Going by Your logic fact that people struggle with detect potions is and will be solely their fault.

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

I can say the same thing about pressing one button that guarantees me a change of position, hard unavoidable CC, dealing damage, and also breaking cloak and possible use of LoS with one button (see Streak) is also too easy.

What you don't want to notice is that every defensive tactic has a counter and every counter to defensive tactics also has an active counter, not just "wait it out" because waiting it out is hypothetical in this case, as I can very easily bring it to a point where waiting it out is not possible because the potion will still be active or someone else will be using it alternately.

Why was Reflective Scales DK changed? Because it was a hard counter to all ranged skills. Similarly here. Hard counter = bad balance.

NB is finally in a good position after years of being nerfed and overlooked in class reworks, but it still isn't a dominant class in PvP, and such a change will push it down a few notches in the food chain.

The fact that someone can't handle NB on live is solely their fault. For example, I kill the most NB because they are the easiest target for me. It is much harder to kill a DK or a sorc who doesn't want to be killed than an NB.

Oh yeah good old argument "something is strong so nothing else can't be touched". It really doesn't bring much into the discussion. it's like sorc's streak is always an escape goat argument for nb when people talk about cloak and vice versa. And like always the same counter arguments can be used like , streak can be countered with gap closers, regular mobility and it have built in ramping cost increase and You cannot stun someone with CC immunity which can be gained in multiple ways and works against every stun not only streak.

What You don't want to notice is that You are wrong. There is no endless line of counters to counters to counters. For example You gave an example of snares and snare/immobilize immunities. What is the counter to snare immobilize immunity after it's being used? Following the target? That's not a counter that's doing excatly the same what You would be doing if there was no snare aka You wait it out. Snares are being countered by snare immunity abilities and it ends there after that exchange fight returns to normal until snare immunity wears off and snare can be applied again. Also stealth playstyle is way more unique than rest of the combat in ESO so defending it by trying to give example of every other encounter is also not that great argument. When cloak works is the strongest defense in the game it offers both offensive and defensive potential. I find the fact that You find it problematic that You will struggle with more than 1 player using detect pot a bit silly. You should struggle. Like what, You think it's balanced to return to stealth when fighting group of people actively using counters to stealth? It's like expecting to easily outheal group of people constantly applying healing debuffs. There are moments where You simply should die that's how PvP works.

Reflective scales were changed because magicka nb was literally useless in PvP because of that ability. You still seems to not see the difference between ability that is being spammed without drawbacks and something that can be used on cooldown and have drawbacks. Fact that reflective scale was reflecting projectiles wasn't an issue on its own. Fact that it was spammable ability was. Why do You think s&b ulti wasn't changed? It's also reflecting all projectiles and it lasts longer than single use of reflective scales. Because it cannot be spammed. Detect potion even with 1 kilometer range would still not be 100% hard counter, it would be a hard counter with a cooldown. Big difference. And nightblade still have counters to counter detection. You use this as one of Your main arguments but refuse to recognise it here.

Nightblade is in too good position. Fact that some class isn't dominant doesn't mean everything about it is balanced. Good example is streak You've mentioned. You make is to look as extremly powerfull ability making it one of Your counterarguments to defend cloak but somehow magsorc right now is not known as dominant. So how it it than You need to be dominant to have something that is very strong or not?

Nightblades are the easiest targets because majority of people playing them are simply bad players crutching on invisibility thinking of it as "I win button" and they don't even know how to deal with disruption of stealth and all they will be doing will be just trying hard to return to stealth despite having lots of different options. But bad players don't make strong ability a bad one. Going by Your logic fact that people struggle with detect potions is and will be solely their fault.

1. By claiming that NB is in too good of a position, you are only showing your prejudice towards NB because you are not being objective.
2. Gap closer or speed build is not a hard counter to streak because sorc can still effectively use it, and nothing stops sorc from changing position with it, using LoS, etc. Somehow sorc does not have to deal with many opponents, he just need to use streak/BoL twice, and he is safe.
3. [snip] Defensive tactics have counters that also have counters. I did not say that there is an infinite counter loop, but that each defensive tactic has a counter, which in turn can be countered, and so on. Ultimately, defense has more options because otherwise the one who uses the offensive combo faster wins because there would be no possibility of defense.
4. I mention streak because it is much more powerful than cloak and yet you won't see me anywhere screaming that streak needs a nerf.
5. By claiming that most NBs are weak because they cannot play without cloak, you confirm that you do realize that cloak can now be effectively countered, and the current tools used to counter cloak are sufficient... unless you don't know how to use them.
6. The skill level of players is roughly equally distributed among players of individual classes, claiming that most NBs are bad players once again shows your prejudice towards this class. The truth is that classes such as DK or Warden have simpler defensive tools, while NB is a more difficult class requiring more skill ergo it's easier to kill.

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1.Nobody is objective. Any of Your claims is as subjective as mine and I can easily create some personal accutations towards You same as You are accusing me of prejudice based simply on Your subjective opinion.
2.Using streak as escape goat argument is beating the dead horse at this point. As I've said You really need to find somet stronger argument than saying that cloak ifs fine because streak exists. What if both are not fine? Even if someone is using detect potion You can still use cloak by Your logic. You will still get invisibility from everyone and everything else. Detect potion won't be hard counter to cloak since it cannot be spammed. Hard counter doesn't mean someone cannot use some ability it means using that won't give the results ability was used for so succesfull gap close spam can be effective hard counter to streak since sorc wont get the result he was using streak for.
3.Detection is not mostly used as defensive tactic. And Your logic still applies to 100 meters detection potions. Cloak used defensively have a counter that is a detect pot and detect pot have a counter in form of nb base defense. It's as simple as that.
4. Streak vs cloak is extremly debatable subject. Which one will be stronger depends higly on the situation. You say that streak is more powerfull than cloak but I dont think You will claim sorc is more powerfull that nb atm in PvP. One ability doesnt make class dominant it's the class kit that does that and nb class kit right now is one of the best in the game making cloak in its current state a bit too much since it's too easy to deal with detections due to defensive buffs nb got.
5. I just said that nb players are weak the rest is just You adding things I didnt said to fit Your agenda. Fact that nb attracts so many weak players may also suggest that stealth playstyle in ESO is strong enough that many people choose to run nb to carry them through most of the PvP. It's not cloak that is being countered it's lack of skill that is being countered. Lack of skill coming from the fact many nbs rely so heavily on cloak, not practicing active fighting under pressure that when they are detected they don't know what to do despite having enough tools to deal with detection.
6. it's not. I am not only claiming that most nightblades are bad players most of players of any class are bad players, nightblade just have higher percentage of bad players than other classes. It's really not a big secret that nb always attracted weak players. It's not a prejudice it's just a fact that everyone who is not completly blinded by personal view on subject will see. Despite changing metas and many fotm builds, nightblade was always very popular class in PvP and it's really not that hard to guess that popular setups are usually the ones that offer some form of easy mode. In case of nightblade it's stealth playstyle.

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