This will change NB for EVER

Shepoffire

The lack of any communication on this is terrible lol. This game is a sinking ship

Tommy_The_Gun

Well, if it is still in the game and is not mention in the patch notes, and will go live like that and still won't be mention in the patch notes - then I guess we should all treat it as a bug and something that is not intended - so we should report it as a bug.

If ZOS is fully transparent with player base - then they would say that this is intended as for example they may want to test something on live server. Silence means that it is a bug. Not being transparent and ninja-pushing huge change like this is just silly. We are not kids. We will understand, ZOS. Players just want to know if they should waste their own, private time to bug report it, or maybe prepare for it once (or if) it will goes live.

I mean stuff like this.... it even looks like a bug. 100 meters tooltip. It does not matter if it is a skill, passive, set or potion. 100 meters tooltip on everything looks ridiculous

FantasticFreddie

Sharpens my /bug

IAVITNI

The strongest NB builds don't even use Cloak and the builds this affects that weren't affected before (Snipe) still have a range advantage. If a nightblade with a Bow can't outpace [insert x build] running at them from Snipe range, it's a L2P issue.

Shepoffire

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Well, if it is still in the game and is not mention in the patch notes, and will go live like that and still won't be mention in the patch notes - then I guess we should all treat it as a bug and something that is not intended - so we should report it as a bug.

If ZOS is fully transparent with player base - then they would say that this is intended as for example they may want to test something on live server. Silence means that it is a bug. Not being transparent and ninja-pushing huge change like this is just silly. We are not kids. We will understand, ZOS. Players just want to know if they should waste their own, private time to bug report it, or maybe prepare for it once (or if) it will goes live.

I mean stuff like this.... it even looks like a bug. 100 meters tooltip. It does not matter if it is a skill, passive, set or potion. 100 meters tooltip on everything looks ridiculous

They do this kinda crap all the time, they ninja nerf *** because they know the backlash it will cause

Thecompton73

IAVITNI wrote: »

The strongest NB builds don't even use Cloak and the builds this affects that weren't affected before (Snipe) still have a range advantage. If a nightblade with a Bow can't outpace [insert x build] running at them from Snipe range, it's a L2P issue.

You don't get it. This means that to be within 100m of any sizable fight a NB will have to actively be spamming cloak every three seconds non-stop the whole time, if they go into simple crouch stealth for even a second someone popping a pot on the other side of a keep will reveal them to EVERYONE, some of whom are bound to be within range to attack. Plus once that NB is seen for even a second other people will pop more pots so they can chase it and see right through cloak.
TBH the strongest NB builds aren't as fun to play, the non-cloak brawly NB feels generic compared to the iconic cat and mouse game of playing a high damage squishy cloak build. Edit: A high damage melee range squishy cloak build.

Luede

Thecompton73 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

The strongest NB builds don't even use Cloak and the builds this affects that weren't affected before (Snipe) still have a range advantage. If a nightblade with a Bow can't outpace [insert x build] running at them from Snipe range, it's a L2P issue.

You don't get it. This means that to be within 100m of any sizable fight a NB will have to actively be spamming cloak every three seconds non-stop the whole time, if they go into simple crouch stealth for even a second someone popping a pot on the other side of a keep will reveal them to EVERYONE, some of whom are bound to be within range to attack. Plus once that NB is seen for even a second other people will pop more pots so they can chase it and see right through cloak.
TBH the strongest NB builds aren't as fun to play, the non-cloak brawly NB feels generic compared to the iconic cat and mouse game of playing a high damage squishy cloak build.

there is no one who throws in detection potions without a reason and just to see if there is someone in 100m is not a reason. my game does not even show players in such a range. and if someone would do it, he could not even reach the player in such a distance before the potion expires and is on CD, unless of course the NB is afk.

a NB who dies to a detection pot doesn't have his class under control, unless of course he's being knocked out by multiple players. most don't even use stealth anymore.

Tommy_The_Gun

IAVITNI wrote: »

The strongest NB builds don't even use Cloak and the builds this affects that weren't affected before (Snipe) still have a range advantage. If a nightblade with a Bow can't outpace [insert x build] running at them from Snipe range, it's a L2P issue.

Yes - better NB player don't rely solely on invisibility as it is way too unreliable & easy to predict. But, still, you know what is funny ? If those potion changes will go live, then every time someone will complain about cloak / invisibility / stealth it will be imho a "L2P issue". Because you know... "that NB got away by one-button reset fight cloak trick" won't be an argument anymore. It will be the fault of the one chasing them if they refuse to use tools that the game provides (100 m detection potions). With 100 m detection no NB will ever get away. Not even the fastest ones. 100 meters is like opening a safe with atom bomb lol. And besides... what ganker uses Snipe nowadays ? It has range, but it is not a skill that can kill. It is not what it used to be in the past. Snipe based gank builds are actually not viable.

But the worst thing imho is not how it will affect NBs or Gankers or Bombers or PvP-ers in general. It is how it will affect the more "casual" aspect of Cyro / IC player base and how it will change the open world PvPvE experience (every class can crouch - sneak). I strongly recommend to test it even on a live server what "100 meters" range is. It is ridiculous. It is more or less the distance between Craglorn Belkarth wayshrine and trading spot (in a straight line). Some simple predictions:
- City "questing hubs" in Cyro will be impossible to stay in undetected to avoid ganks / getting outnumbered / zerged while doing PvE. Same for IC.
- It will be impossible to stay inside a keep if it is captured & wait for it to be re-taken.
- It won't be even possible to stay anywhere near the keep or resources hidden, waiting for reinforcements.
- Many not so obvious "hiding spots" will become just a memory. This of course means less diversity.
- Observing enemy to get Intel where they are heading will also be impossible. You are literally better off with re-loging as an enemy player & literally "spying" lol.
- Any solo play in IC or Cyro will be kinda gone.
- Doing mixed PvPvE in Cyro (like Delves) will also be impossible as you will be detected inside the entire dungeon.
- Personally, I have not checked this, but I assume if a player detects you, then if you are within the range of PvE or PvP mobs then they will also fight you and even if detection potions will run out - mobs will detect you as long as they have agro on you.
- As far as I am aware, it is impossible to say who is using Detection Potions, so it is impossible to counter the one who uses it (killing one player or getting away from that particular player & ignoring the rest).
- Some one here also mentioned a "snow ball" effect; if enemy player is detected more players around are likely to use detected potions making the 100% uptime trivial.

Meurto

Mayrael wrote: »

Kaysha wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

So since the other thread about detection potions got ninja nerfed (it no longer moves to the top when posted) just as NBs on PTS, I'm asking once again for clarification on this topic. Is the 500% buff to detection potions, that was not included in any of the PTS patch notes iterations is intentional ninja nerf or known issue?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

This kind of approach for such huge change is almost insulting for player base. This is not acceptable.

Is that really true? That’s a completely unacceptable behavior.

Unfortunately yes, please find the thread titled "Essence Of Detection range on PTS???" and check when the last posts were made and where it is on the list of threads. That thread is meant to be forgotten and it's hard for me to believe that it's just a coincidence.

I also noticed the thread count increasing without returning to the first page. Seems a bit suspect to me and as much back and forth as there has been on this thread I think it is safe to assume at this point the change is intended.

There has been a tremendous amount of poor rhetoric and flawed perspective from the 2 or 3 people defending this change, but in the end I don't think this change will really help them.

TechMaybeHic

At first I had not defended the change and I don't really want to,; but it's the rhetoric about how damaging it is that makes me think it's not that bad. I play NB and either don't use cloak, or use it just to get a crit, conceal weapon and vampire damage buff

But this isn't about cloak really, is it? It's more about sneaking. Cloak in this case, has just been a tool to get to crouched version of sneaking while spotted. And the fact people are so upset about this that they can't even AFK out in the open somewhere; or basically largely avoid he intended risk situations of IC by stealth makes this sound like maybe it should not be so effective.

NB will be fine. Other classes crouching will generally be fine

Ganking can still happen; but you probably won't want to gank someone inside a zerg unless you also have good line of site to hide in as well; as maybe it really should have been more of a concern before.

You could still bomb or be a bomber in a fight. Just probably not going to stay hidden inside a keep waiting for a mega LOL bomb on a flag or somewhere people will be expecting it.

When you lose a fight; it also will be more difficult to sneak around to reset to try again or just stick in that area. It will likely be more definitive.

So there is a huge reaction, and I get it. For all I posted above; it has been part of the game for 9 years and suddenly it appears to maybe be a complete 180. Least they could do is address if it's intentional, going to stay or not, and why.

Tommy_The_Gun

I am not expert, but as far as I am aware, NB & vamp have some "when you leave sneak or invisibility" effects that provide temporary bonuses. So I guess as soon as you get detected by "100 meters range detection potions" - those effects would be trigger immediately and by the time you approach the fight you would not be able to use those. So both ganking & bombing (even if you approach successfully) will be way weaker.

Nothing happens without reason. Every balance change has a reason. I think that maybe it is some kind of silent preparation for some additional changes in the future. Maybe they want to add some Mythics item that boost sneaking or something. Idk. I think that if this is intended - then for sure we don't have all pieces of the puzzle here. The lack of communication is just plain annoying.

kalunte

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Nothing happens without reason. Every balance change has a reason. I think that maybe it is some kind of silent preparation for some additional changes in the future. Maybe they want to add some Mythics item that boost sneaking or something. Idk. I think that if this is intended - then for sure we don't have all pieces of the puzzle here. The lack of communication is just plain annoying.

man, you put way to much faith in eso combat team. this is just a mess to make us wait for another mess that wont fix anything but mess it all up a way that it will maybe skip this one and so on for infinity.

that's what they have been doing since day1

Nerhesi

The nothing happens without a reason is false when applied to ESO balancing.

You've got solid evidence of "DoTs are too strong" being announced from the dev team while consistently ignoring the most oppressive dots in the game. Not proc sets - which require the devotion of a whole item set... oh no, I'm talking Burning/Poison/Hemorrhage etc.. especially with combustion.

The most oppressive dots (because they're usually bundled for free with other skills), that out perform proc-sets.. alive and well since the consistent nerfing of actual skill-dots and proc sets since elsewyr.

Still think there is a grand reason that required ignoring this fact for? 3 years later?

BlueRaven

If I was being positive, I would like to think that someone on the zos team is stress testing cyrodill. And one of the pain points is people going in and out of stealth.
So for that they need to temporarily set the reveal distance absurdly high to really stress out the servers as they track down the pain points.

But any move by me to be positive about anything beyond zos’s creative team always comes back to aggravate me somehow.

PhoenixGrey

Even If cloak was removed, NB is still the best class in the game by a mile.

I can't help but wonder how do NB's with cloak even manage to die in PVP today.

blktauna

People in cyro fear death too much. This is Valhalla folks, you just get up. The NB hate is stupid.

Tommy_The_Gun

100 meters tooltip looks ridiculous. I don't mean the potions specifically. Imagine if ANYTHING had 100 meters tooltip. The 1st thing that people would think that it is a UI bug. I mean I can not even keep a straight face when I am typing it LOL. It is just um... comical to say the least

100 meter circle around you in every direction.... 200 meters. I mean yes. Yes. You are finally save from ganks. As long as you will keep drinking your medici... I mean your potion. Imagine if some one was selling those wonderful potion in a fantasy world. How it would be called ? NB repellent ? Anti-blade ? Vampire vaporizer ? Or imagine how the commercial would look like. It would be like "eat a snicker" or the old "mentos the freshmaker". But it would be the new Detection Potion instead

Better yet. Imagine if there was a potion that removes some other mechanic from every player that is 100 meters around you. Lets say they can not block or roll dodge or cast shield or use gap closers... yeah...

I mean it is not even sad. At this point the sad-o-meter went 360 a couple of times and is now on "Loooool"

Galeriano

blktauna wrote: »

People in cyro fear death too much. This is Valhalla folks, you just get up. The NB hate is stupid.

Isn't choosing a stealth based class (so it will allow to avoid being even noticed by others) the biggest sign of being affaraid to die?

IncultaWolf

AuraNebula wrote: »

What is happening to this game? No risk in PvP? Just let zergs take over the map? Everyone just make a DK and call it a day. Lol.

I was just thinking about that actually with these balance directions, like..do they just want everyone to play dragonknight?

AuraNebula

IncultaWolf wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

What is happening to this game? No risk in PvP? Just let zergs take over the map? Everyone just make a DK and call it a day. Lol.

I was just thinking about that actually with these balance directions, like..do they just want everyone to play dragonknight?

Considering it's been the meta class for almost two years...yes they do. No other class has ever remained at the top for this long. I stopped playing for a while came back a month or two ago and I remembered why I stopped playing... because tanky healing metas are boring. PvP is sad. So many names I used to see are gone, streamers I loved moved on to other games.

It's not just the performance that's driving people away...it's the combat choices.

Galeriano

AuraNebula wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

What is happening to this game? No risk in PvP? Just let zergs take over the map? Everyone just make a DK and call it a day. Lol.

I was just thinking about that actually with these balance directions, like..do they just want everyone to play dragonknight?

Considering it's been the meta class for almost two years...yes they do. No other class has ever remained at the top for this long. I stopped playing for a while came back a month or two ago and I remembered why I stopped playing... because tanky healing metas are boring. PvP is sad. So many names I used to see are gone, streamers I loved moved on to other games.

It's not just the performance that's driving people away...it's the combat choices.

Yes there were classes who were at top for that long. Magsorc and stamblade in particular. They had 3-4 years reigning periods in the past.

Galeriano

demonology89 wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

People in cyro fear death too much. This is Valhalla folks, you just get up. The NB hate is stupid.

Isn't choosing a stealth based class (so it will allow to avoid being even noticed by others) the biggest sign of being affaraid to die?

[Snip]

Avoiding reality won't change it.

[Edited quote]

Tommy_The_Gun

Galeriano wrote: »

demonology89 wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

People in cyro fear death too much. This is Valhalla folks, you just get up. The NB hate is stupid.

Isn't choosing a stealth based class (so it will allow to avoid being even noticed by others) the biggest sign of being affaraid to die?

[Snip]

Avoiding reality won't change it.

There is a difference between being a coward and being a fool. Hiding & avoiding fight you can not win is a perfectly valid tactics and is not a sign of being afraid.

I don't think that being realistic means some one is a coward. Knowing your limits is something that can actually make you a better player.

[Edited quote]

Galeriano

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

demonology89 wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

People in cyro fear death too much. This is Valhalla folks, you just get up. The NB hate is stupid.

Isn't choosing a stealth based class (so it will allow to avoid being even noticed by others) the biggest sign of being affaraid to die?

[Snip]

Avoiding reality won't change it.

There is a difference between being a coward and being a fool. Hiding & avoiding fight you can not win is a perfectly valid tactics and is not a sign of being afraid.

I don't think that being realistic means some one is a coward. Knowing your limits is something that can actually make you a better player.

Hiding from something is a sign of fear. You don't hide from things You are not affaraid of.

[snip]

[Edited quote for baiting]

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

We've removed several baiting and non-constructive comments. This is a friendly reminder that comments need to adhere to our Forum Rules. Please note that derailing a thread with off-topic or baiting comments will result in the thread being closed.

Thank you for your understanding.