This will change NB for EVER

Galeriano

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

JonnytheKing wrote: »

ZOS_Phoenix wrote: »

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

can we not get a anwser on weather or not this is ment to be 100m

Right?! They move the thread but don't respond to any of the tags?!

Forum mods and combat team devs are two different things.

ZOS_Phoenix

Greetings,

As we've had to edit a few non-constructive comments, please remember that while it’s all right to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and its community as a whole.

Turtle_Bot

Mayrael wrote: »

2. Detection potion is a hard counter to cloak because A. It doesn't have to be spammed, it's a better counter than detection skills because it doesn't take up space on the bar, ignores GCD, and is only used when needed. It can be crafted with an additional CC immunity effect and, when combined with glyphs and the clever alchemist set, can provide 100% uptime, giving also powerful buffs, so there is no talk of sacrifice. B. Just one LA from a bow is enough to render cloak completely useless and NB loses resources on casting it. Streak always teleports the sorc from point A to point B, regardless of what other players do. C. I don't have to look for another skill to use in this context, it's my decision.

I need to chime in here, for this point especially, to ensure that some facts are brought back into this back and forth.

Whether intentional or not, you are making it sound like streak is some free to cast ability that always works, always ignores CC immunity, breaks you free of all CC and silence effects and has some huge teleportation range that outranges everything else in the game.

- Streak has a hefty ramping cost (+33% per cast), this means that each subsequent cast of the ability increases the cost of it significantly making it extremely expensive to recast, especially when the enemy just runs after the streaking sorc at minimal cost to their resources.
- Streak has always been bugged. Just like every other gap closer it suffers from every bug related to that mechanic.
- Streak also cannot be cast while stunned, so it won't "always teleport the sorcerer from point A to point B regardless of what other players do".
- Streak stun does not go through CC immunity, so those same Immovability pots that are useful when fighting every other class with a stun are also useful to counter streak since they allow you ignore streaks stun and chase after the fleeing sorc.
- Streak also only has 15m range, same as new mist form. All other gap closers have 22m range.

Streak also functions very differently to invisibility. Not saying that one is better than the other, but both are equally strong on their respective classes, but the difference is the NBs overall kit is significantly stronger than sorcerers overall kit. (This is coming from someone who has played both classes at a high level).

This is the big difference maker when discussing sorc vs NB. NB currently has defensive options that make plar/cro jealous let alone sorcs, this is why streak is much less of an issue currently compared to invis, if a sorc streaks they still have mediocre healing and recovery, if a NB goes invis, they use 1 heal and pop out at full health again.

When it comes to potion builds, there is plenty of sacrifice, it's just not as obvious as something like giving up a skill slot for the detect skills is. The sacrifice for potion builds is in the sets being ran and the traits and enchants being used, particularly on the jewelry which has the most important traits for a build.
You can run clever alchemist, but then you miss out on other overall stronger sets and this still doesn't account for the jewelry traits/enchants that are some of the best in the game at the moment and are a significant part of every build.
There's a reason that potion based builds are not everywhere in cyrodiil at the moment despite the fact that they are extremely accessible (almost everything needed for it is craftable).

Mayrael wrote: »

4. Your entire fourth point is based on a flawed assumption about the dominant position of the Nightblade class, which is in a good place, but is certainly not the top predator and definitely not the first on the list for such drastic nerfs. It's simply not needed.

The reason NB is not seen as the "top predator" is because it takes quite a lot of skill to play it well. DK performs just as good as NB, but is significantly easier and less punishing to play, therefore the majority of players will gravitate to DK instead of NB because they simply want to play easy mode instead of putting in the effort to learn how to play the harder class.
The top NBs in PvP are easily performing on par or better than DKs, even top DKs, it's just that there are far fewer of those players in the game.

Now if we are to talk about PvE, then 100% NB needs a buff, but for PvP, at the moment, NB, particularly Hybrid NB, is right up among the top, right behind/alongside DK.

JonnytheKing

ZOS_Phoenix wrote: »

Greetings,

As we've had to edit a few non-constructive comments, please remember that while it’s all right to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community.

While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and its community as a whole.

can you not just give everyone a anwser @ZOS_Phoenix @ZOS_GinaBruno

Marcus684

Why do so many threads degenerate into NB vs Sorc squabbling? It's like they're siblings that just can never get along.

blktauna

Marcus684 wrote: »

Why do so many threads degenerate into NB vs Sorc squabbling? It's like they're siblings that just can never get along.

folks get frustrated with the people who should not be ignoring the question, ignoring the question, so they take their frustration out on other things that frustrate them.

This shouldnt even be a how many page thread. There should be a response mid page one with the answer then we'd all have moved on.

Turtle_Bot

Marcus684 wrote: »

Why do so many threads degenerate into NB vs Sorc squabbling? It's like they're siblings that just can never get along.

NB v Sorc is a tale as old as ESO itself

What it comes down to though is that both classes have similar playstyles, but different interpretations on how they achieve that and both tend to see the other as stronger than their own (grass is always greener and all that).

The other issue is that NB and sorc are both very popular classes among the player base, as such, both need to be balanced as a pair instead of alternating back and forth between the 2 classes like what is currently being done otherwise it results in the arguments we see all the time.

It also doesn't help that DK and Plar need to be considered when balancing as well since the 4 OG classes work on the principle that they each are strong and weak to 2 of the other 4, so by only having 2 at a time be strong, that tends to completely throw balance out the window when specific combinations of 2 of the 4 classes are strong, such as what's happening currently with DK and NB being strong and their natural checks in plar and sorc being weak.

TL//DR
other class always looks more OP than their own
both classes are very popular
both classes play similar but do so in different ways
when buffing 2/4 OG classes at a time, some combinations of those 4 completely destroys game balance due to natural checks not existing.

Mayrael

Firstly, this whole discussion wouldn't have escalated to this point if ZOS did what they were supposed to do, which is give us information on the matter. Secondly, there was no need to argue forcefully that even if it's a bug, it should stay as it is.

I got caught up in a pointless argument for which I apologize.

Tommy_The_Gun

I just realised something. The Detection Potion range is the distance between you and the "edge" of the detection circle. It is basically a radius. So it is not really 100, but rather 200, if some one with the potion stands in the middle. I have tested what 100 meters in game is and it is kinda ridiculous. But then I realised that detection potions work in every direction around you, so the maximum effective range is up to 200 meters.

Imagine if some one in IC will just stand in their respawn, use the potion and it will affect entire district. No one will be able to sneak by the mobs for example, while player using the detection potion won't even realize that he/she is detecting someone because of various obstacles (no line of sight) or player will be too far away to even be rendered by the game's engine.

Similarly in Cyro. Imagine some one using this in PvE questing hub city...

TechMaybeHic

blktauna wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

Why do so many threads degenerate into NB vs Sorc squabbling? It's like they're siblings that just can never get along.

folks get frustrated with the people who should not be ignoring the question, ignoring the question, so they take their frustration out on other things that frustrate them.

This shouldnt even be a how many page thread. There should be a response mid page one with the answer then we'd all have moved on.

Mayrael wrote: »

Firstly, this whole discussion wouldn't have escalated to this point if ZOS did what they were supposed to do, which is give us information on the matter. Secondly, there was no need to argue forcefully that even if it's a bug, it should stay as it is.

I got caught up in a pointless argument for which I apologize.

Are you guys new? @ZOS_Kevin has been good about trying but way more times than not, there is no response.

I mean, templars have been complaining about jabs animation and backlash seemingly being double dipped in battle spirit for 6-9months. Even when they address Templar, those bits are not mentioned

I would like to know myself; just for informational purposes as I tend to not run cloak. Would on my NB this next patch with the requirement changed for concealed weapon being more difficult with expedition but double the time by just leaving cloak. Still won't be relying on it to move unseen so much, but it would be nice to know

Tommy_The_Gun

Usually someone would respond by now. 100 meters looks like a bug and is kinda unbelievable, but who knows. I have seen various things happening in the game patch that were not in patch notes (I play since 2014).

At this point I expect that every "silent" balance change may be possible.

Galeriano

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Usually someone would respond by now. 100 meters looks like a bug and is kinda unbelievable, but who knows. I have seen various things happening in the game patch that were not in patch notes (I play since 2014).

At this point I expect that every "silent" balance change may be possible.

To be honest it may not be a bug. Why is nightblade that attacks from meele forced to deal with effects of detect potions but nb who is sniping or sieging from a far can be safe from it? Increased detection radius brings way more balance to detect pot effects since it will always affect nb for the 15 sec duration not just occasionally when he is close enough and don't know how to escape it. Nightblades would loose low risk high reward type of playstyle that many relied on.

Mayrael

Galeriano wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Usually someone would respond by now. 100 meters looks like a bug and is kinda unbelievable, but who knows. I have seen various things happening in the game patch that were not in patch notes (I play since 2014).

At this point I expect that every "silent" balance change may be possible.

To be honest it may not be a bug. Why is nightblade that attacks from meele forced to deal with effects of detect potions but nb who is sniping or sieging from a far can be safe from it? Increased detection radius brings way more balance to detect pot effects since it will always affect nb for the 15 sec duration not just occasionally when he is close enough and don't know how to escape it. Nightblades would loose low risk high reward type of playstyle that many relied on.

I don't agree. Can we get some official statement on the topic already?

Galeriano

Marcus684 wrote: »

Why do so many threads degenerate into NB vs Sorc squabbling? It's like they're siblings that just can never get along.

It's been like that since game release. Nightblade and sorc have two most unique and strong types of defense/offense moves in form of cloak and streak and every time one of these is being discussed You will see other being used as escape goat argument.

Dojohoda

Marcus684 wrote: »

Why do so many threads degenerate into NB vs Sorc squabbling? It's like they're siblings that just can never get along.

Me, Shwoo-paa (how the night blade sounds) and Snap-crackle-pop (the sorc's noise), the two of us ... our feud is older than the crust behind that blasted high elf's ears.

ZeroAxis

As someone who plays NB as a brawler, bomber, healer, and ganker I can honestly say that there are quite a few counters to the stealth play style already.

One could argue that ganking is unfair, I totally get it. Nobody wants to have their cheeks vaporized in less than 1 second. On the flip side, however, in many cases those getting dusted are riding a faction stack that literally cripples the server or they are in the ball group that the rest of the faction is tethered to. Rapid Regens are being flung around like party foam at a bubble party. This makes the kill harder to execute and get away with - plus it is doing the server a favor. You are welcome.

Flare. Magelight. Sentry. Detect Pots (as they are, not the PTS version). These are more than enough to protect your cheeks. Mostly

Now for the scenario that is likely a contributing factor (IF this change is intentional). Full groups of gankers dogpiling players. I respect the solo snipe and good old fashion melee gank, but this play style is kind of scummy. If you are going to gank, do it alone unless you are going against a group. Or do what some NB guilds do and simply disrupt the map and play an hour long game of whack a mole in keeps. That’s hilarious to watch and/or fight against AND the D ticks are delicious.

If this rolls out I foresee less gankers (now that there is more exposure to detect pots in general) and that’s fine. There are lots of ways to enjoy the NB class. However, if the stealth play style gets slowly weeded out, make people less tanky and limit heal stacking in groups. Brawling now feels like turn based combat which is worse than getting asylum crushing shock lethal arrow ice comet ganked by 10 people at once. I’d rather deal with that than watch PvP continue to devolve into tank v tank.

Vulkunne

ZeroAxis wrote: »

As someone who plays NB as a brawler, bomber, healer, and ganker I can honestly say that there are quite a few counters to the stealth play style already.

One could argue that ganking is unfair, I totally get it. Nobody wants to have their cheeks vaporized in less than 1 second. On the flip side, however, in many cases those getting dusted are riding a faction stack that literally cripples the server or they are in the ball group that the rest of the faction is tethered to. Rapid Regens are being flung around like party foam at a bubble party. This makes the kill harder to execute and get away with - plus it is doing the server a favor. You are welcome.

Flare. Magelight. Sentry. Detect Pots (as they are, not the PTS version). These are more than enough to protect your cheeks. Mostly

Now for the scenario that is likely a contributing factor (IF this change is intentional). Full groups of gankers dogpiling players. I respect the solo snipe and good old fashion melee gank, but this play style is kind of scummy. If you are going to gank, do it alone unless you are going against a group. Or do what some NB guilds do and simply disrupt the map and play an hour long game of whack a mole in keeps. That’s hilarious to watch and/or fight against AND the D ticks are delicious.

If this rolls out I foresee less gankers (now that there is more exposure to detect pots in general) and that’s fine. There are lots of ways to enjoy the NB class. However, if the stealth play style gets slowly weeded out, make people less tanky and limit heal stacking in groups. Brawling now feels like turn based combat which is worse than getting asylum crushing shock lethal arrow ice comet ganked by 10 people at once. I’d rather deal with that than watch PvP continue to devolve into tank v tank.

Well in my copious spare time, such that it is, I've done the math on this and come up with some interesting findings.

I think its safe to say one reason this is being done is because of bombers. Of course, not all bombers are NBs but all bombers need to use Stealth at least for a while. So perhaps the hidden truth here is they want to make it harder for bombers to steal the show. While I still don't agree with the 'fix' its easy to see why ZOS would be tired of getting complaints about these guys. If 5 people are repping a keep door only one need use the Stealth pot.

For number two, even with 100 meters, there are some tactics and things that can be done for regular gankers and casual NBs to just enjoy the game. I'm not going to post what those are but I suppose some good could come out of this in that it will help cut out the bombers and also purge the NB Class in a manner similar to how Vamps were purged when the old vampire passives got converted over to the actual Vampire Skill Line. Because majority of the community were vamps but for the wrong reasons... it was getting really weird.

Still kind of a lazy way of doing business. I would think (and certainly would hope) their code is robust enough and object oriented where they could target groups and functionality without using globals as much. I also still think 100m is over the top, I have heard others suggest something more bearable and rational like 25 or 30m. Again if this is to help stop the bombers, which it will certainly do then I wish they would have just come out and said that instead of trying to slide this thru the patch notes.

If so many other players are also concerned about this mysterious change I wish they would come out and talk about it rather than letting us eat silence. Not very friendly to treat your community this way but taking this and other incidents into account by now I'm starting to feel like a battered 'marriage partner'.

BlueRaven

I don’t pvp. But I have a few questions.

During pvp events I have a vamp nb who’s sole purpose is to do scouting quests. I run to where I need to be (while invisible), do the quest, and get out.

I have a similar philosophy with IC.

So I am running invisible or maybe I am just in stealth writing a report. Someone within 100 yards of my character pops a detect potion.

Can just the potion person see me?
Is my stealth broken for everyone?
Is vamp invisibility pointless?

Because from what I think I am seeing in this thread, this will just cause a lot of confusion to players who are no where near another player and suddenly (mysteriously) their stealth breaks for no discernible reason. Am I reading this right?

JerBearESO

just gonna throw my 2 cents in.

many people say that stealth detection is counter play. its not! it is what i refer to as anitplay, the elimination of a gameplay element by implementation of another. unfortunately, we arive here due to the fact that invisibility in ESO is itself antiplay by design.

simply put, if you can NOT detect the NB, they have either won or have control enough to not lose the fight; if you CAN detect the NB, their core mechanic no longer effectively exists and they have already lost (except for if they have built tanky, in which case....why).

the solution thereby exists, not in attempted counterplay design to the current invisibilty designs, but in redesign of said invisibility designs alongside (y'all are gonna hate this) REMOVAL of stealth detection, including destealth by damage; this seems extreme but is needed once invisibility is redesigned to a balanced state, because detection IS antiplay.

so what is balanced redesign? i'm going to leave that to everyone else to figure out. but i will point out a couple suggestions:

1. likely area based stealth, so that you have to stay within a broadcast area to remain stealthed, would be a good direction to consider; this allows the enemy to have a chance at counterplay by knowing the general area you are in, since free roam stealth is extremely overperforming in nature.
2. high, ramping cost is an obvious and repeatedly asked for suggestion; perhaps high cost penalty when in combat, but regular cost outside of combat, so that you can stealth in for a gank, but then have to use with care while in the fight.

all in all, we need for non crouch stealths to offer far less than absolute control of fights, then we need detections to be removed from the picture (worth noting: loss of stealth by detection is the culprit here, but detection could continue to exist in a lesser sense, such as indicating the general area of the stealthed enemy without pulling them out of invisibility).

in closing i would like to point out, preemptively in my defense (i fear backlash xD) that what i have proposed has been successfully implemented into other games, though i wont name any; i for some reason feel like "Laughing Out Loud"...hint.

kalunte

BlueRaven wrote: »

Because from what I think I am seeing in this thread, this will just cause a lot of confusion to players who are no where near another player and suddenly (mysteriously) their stealth breaks for no discernible reason. Am I reading this right?

this will happen just like you're saying it.

all invisibility counters are invisibilty counters, they don't give one single player to see through shadows, it just breaks it for everyone in his range or for the counter's duration (if one nightblade walks into a flar or whatever).


the only fair thing that could be done is to raise detect skills from 8 to 10m since melee attacks got buffed from 5 to 7 (or 8 to 11m if you're thinking in %increase of the melee range instead of a flat +2) and eventually buff the flairs to 10/15 metter radius to secure doors while having potions to have a max 28m range so that could could eventually snipe but not place any light attack or ult or whatever on top it making way less likely to kill you unless you're afk/sleeping.
note that the ability to reveal someone who's even out of regular long range weapon's max range is weird.

thegreatme

If this change is real, its going to completely kill the ability of PvE players from running Imperial City quests when Midyear Mayhem/IC Event happens.

Its already a seal-clubbing fest every time the event happens for the lowbies/PvE players who are basically forced into PvP to get event tickets and style pages.

Not a PvP regular myself and end up using cloak + sneak sets + wild hunt ring for speed just to get in and out to get my tickets when I'm doing solo quests and want to avoid pvp without getting steamrolled by seal clubbers, and this makes me wonder if even running a high stealth build for questing in Imperial City is going to be rendered obsolete and make MM/ICE utterly impossible.

I can't even imagine the frustration of people who haven't or don't know how to build specifically for avoiding players.

ucctriphaneb17_ESO

Hm, es gibt zwar für einige einen Rüffel aber eine Info dazu ob es ein Fehler oder nicht ist den gibt es offensichtlich nicht?

Mayrael

So since the other thread about detection potions got ninja nerfed (it no longer moves to the top when posted) just as NBs on PTS, I'm asking once again for clarification on this topic. Is the 500% buff to detection potions, that was not included in any of the PTS patch notes iterations is intentional ninja nerf or known issue?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

This kind of approach for such huge change is almost insulting for player base. This is not acceptable.

xDeusEJRx

Surprised this hasn't at all been mentioned on patch notes

DrNukenstein

This really is the biggest change next patch. Not even just for people who's playstyle hinges on stealth, but for people who like to play solo/small scale in IC or Cyrodil. If it's an intended change I don't expect any reasoning to fly with fans of the stealth playstyle, but a comment as to whether it's intended for update 38 is over due.

Edit: Biggest change for organized groups that enjoy flexing their comms diff too.

FantasticFreddie

Mayrael wrote: »

So since the other thread about detection potions got ninja nerfed (it no longer moves to the top when posted) just as NBs on PTS, I'm asking once again for clarification on this topic. Is the 500% buff to detection potions, that was not included in any of the PTS patch notes iterations is intentional ninja nerf or known issue?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

This kind of approach for such huge change is almost insulting for player base. This is not acceptable.

I thought I had just lost it. Not moving up when a new comment gets posted is just underhanded.

Dojohoda

Yep, if they aren't already, organized groups might adopt calling for detect pots upon detection cooldown.

Going afk somewhere in Cyrodiil for a few minutes will be much riskier. THIS WILL AFFECT MY REAL LIFE!@11
Cap lock for comedic effect but this 100 meters isn't funny.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin
I hope you can comment on this soon please. We'd love to know it this change is going through and we'd love to know the reasons behind the change.

Kaysha

Mayrael wrote: »

So since the other thread about detection potions got ninja nerfed (it no longer moves to the top when posted) just as NBs on PTS, I'm asking once again for clarification on this topic. Is the 500% buff to detection potions, that was not included in any of the PTS patch notes iterations is intentional ninja nerf or known issue?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

This kind of approach for such huge change is almost insulting for player base. This is not acceptable.

Is that really true? That’s a completely unacceptable behavior.

AuraNebula

What is happening to this game? No risk in PvP? Just let zergs take over the map? Everyone just make a DK and call it a day. Lol.

Mayrael

Kaysha wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

So since the other thread about detection potions got ninja nerfed (it no longer moves to the top when posted) just as NBs on PTS, I'm asking once again for clarification on this topic. Is the 500% buff to detection potions, that was not included in any of the PTS patch notes iterations is intentional ninja nerf or known issue?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

This kind of approach for such huge change is almost insulting for player base. This is not acceptable.

Is that really true? That’s a completely unacceptable behavior.

Unfortunately yes, please find the thread titled "Essence Of Detection range on PTS???" and check when the last posts were made and where it is on the list of threads. That thread is meant to be forgotten and it's hard for me to believe that it's just a coincidence.