This will change NB for EVER

Galeriano

Xarc wrote: »

lol

people cried about NB
and they won, AGAIN

Did they? Nightblade right now on live server is in one of the better places it has been since a long time. Magicka/hybrid nightblade especially.

Tommy_The_Gun

So, I did a test of my own on live server and just as a reference point:

The distance of 100 meters is more or less the distance between Craglorn, Belkarth Wayshrine and Craglorn, Belkarth Guild Traders spot (in a straight line).

If I stand on the Wayshrine, then players & npcs near the Trading Guild spot are no longer being rendered & vice versa. It has to be an oversight & bug

Xarc

Galeriano wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

lol

people cried about NB
and they won, AGAIN

Did they? Nightblade right now on live server is in one of the better places it has been since a long time. Magicka/hybrid nightblade especially.

didnt you read all the threads about NB's cloack in pvp, last few days ?

who exactly is using DETECTION POTS in PVE against hybrid NB ? Tell me i'm curious. NPC Guards in town maybe ?

Galeriano

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

So, I did a test of my own on live server and just as a reference point:

The distance of 100 meters is more or less the distance between Craglorn, Belkarth Wayshrine and Craglorn, Belkarth Guild Traders spot (in a straight line).

If I stand on the Wayshrine, then players & npcs near the Trading Guild spot are no longer being rendered & vice versa. It has to be an oversight & bug

I think they made it so long to also count for nightblades using sieges. It seems like that change is basically developer saying to nightblades "no matter what You will be doing in PvP You can't buy Your way out always with cloak".

Also realistically if nb will be so far from someone who used potion than it will take that person big chunk of that detection duration to get get there and nightblade will be also seeing that person moving in his direction.

Galeriano

Xarc wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

lol

people cried about NB
and they won, AGAIN

Did they? Nightblade right now on live server is in one of the better places it has been since a long time. Magicka/hybrid nightblade especially.

didnt you read all the threads about NB's cloack in pvp, last few days ?

who exactly is using DETECTION POTS in PVE against hybrid NB ? Tell me i'm curious. NPC Guards in town maybe ?

I was talking about PvP. I don't know what gave You different impression.

Mayrael

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

Galeriano

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

Vulkunne

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

What Mayrael is saying, if I understand this correctly and Mayrael let me know if you don't agree with this, but what the point trying to be conveyed here is this is a static setting that has a blanket effect on everything within 100m. Meaning this change isn't balanced against anything thus it has no real counter. Its basically a global value meant to 'force' a change. This is why its bad for the game but its not taking into account existing buffs or systems meant to swing the balance one way or another. Its bad and not healthy for the game and if this is indeed as intended it represents a lack of imagination and a lack of problem solving on the part of the devs trying to implement this mistake. Its another mistake.

Furthermore, having played a NB off and on for years, many people see the NB as it is today but don't understand where it has been. Nerfing the invisibility cloak any further will make it basically not worth using. The passive that was supposed to 'buff' the cloak duration has already been hard-set, as you suggested, but it was hard-set to a static value of 3 seconds with full morphs. Was 3.5 Seconds. That is barely enough time to make it worth it as for Stamblade the NB cloak is really expensive magicka wise. I would say as it stands today the cloak is fine the way it is but when you stop and actually play the NB you realize that lag messes with you holding cloak. The ground you can cover while cloaked is paramount and between the lag and lessing the duration of the cloak means it will not perform sufficiently and will really do more harm to the player than good because I won't be able to get any real distance while burning resources trying to cloak.

ZDunlain

Chill my fellow nb lol, not all people will use this potion and survive 15 sec is a basic thing in PvP xD.

Storm27Stars

Recently came back to the game after a 9 month or so holiday from ESO, cause I'd had a gutsfull of all the constant changes.

Then I read this and remember why I stopped playing.

They are making Nightblades in PvP irrelevant. What's next? Stop DK's fire abilities? Stop Sorcs casting spells? Necros shouldn't be able to raise the dead?

The reality is Sorcs cast spells, Necros raise the dead, DK's manipulate fire and Nightblades are sneaky so and so's, so LET THEM BE SNEAKY!!!!

Maybe they are doing it cause some players can't take being bombed (I'm not a bomber by the way, but salute those with the skill to successfully do it). They won't be hiding in keeps anymore, waiting for the right time to strike cause someone can see them a mile off.

One person that'll be happy though if this change is for real and not a bug, will be my Mrs, as she'll inherit all my gold and mats from my account when I uninstall the game.

TaSheen

Hey, guys - did you post about this in the PTS forum? That's likely the best place....

Storm27Stars

Hi, yup. I didn't realise this wasn't a PTS thread, my Mrs just sent me a link and I tapped away.

Replied on PTS as well 👍.

ZOS_Phoenix

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

Turtle_Bot

100m seems like an oversight that remains from some testing they were doing in regards to stealth bugs they had reported on recently, detection pots being 20m was a decent range (30m would be the sweet spot imo).

The issue was detection skills in general being only 5m as well as ridiculously expensive to use. for 5k+ magicka/stamina (25% more than cloaks cost before any cost reduction) they should have had 10m radius minimum and lasted for between 5-10 seconds.

As for the change to detection pots, if it does go through, it really isn't going to be as big of a deal as many claim.

- Good players already use these pots and know how to counter NB (no change)
- Bad players still won't use them (or will use them very poorly/reactively if they do use them) (no change)
- NB still has very strong healing and mobility to recover from and evade attacks (no change)
- NB still has some of the highest burst damage in the game (for PvP) for possibly the fewest casts (no change)
- NB still has some ridiculous buff access including potentially free dodge rolls + major evasion, both major + minor expedition passively on good core skills, shade, and more. (no change)

NB will 100% still wreck bad players as they always have and they will still be average/struggle against good players who know what they're doing. A good NB will still be unkillable the same way they are now. The only thing this would change is that mediocre NBs who crutch on cloak as their only form of defense will no longer have a get out of gaol free card they can spam to get away from equally bad players.

All a range increase on detect pots does is make NBs less frustrating to chase down/catch the same way immovability pots do for sorcs trying to streak away from you. Detection pots will also still have their drawbacks of not being able to use better more universally applicable pots (like tri-stat or immovability), still have a 66% downtime on builds that don't focus on cheesing potions and will still be useless for fighting every other class/build.

Vulkunne

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

100m seems like an oversight that remains from some testing they were doing in regards to stealth bugs they had reported on recently, detection pots being 20m was a decent range (30m would be the sweet spot imo).

The issue was detection skills in general being only 5m as well as ridiculously expensive to use. for 5k+ magicka/stamina (25% more than cloaks cost before any cost reduction) they should have had 10m radius minimum and lasted for between 5-10 seconds.

As for the change to detection pots, if it does go through, it really isn't going to be as big of a deal as many claim.

- Good players already use these pots and know how to counter NB (no change)
- Bad players still won't use them (or will use them very poorly/reactively if they do use them) (no change)
- NB still has very strong healing and mobility to recover from and evade attacks (no change)
- NB still has some of the highest burst damage in the game (for PvP) for possibly the fewest casts (no change)
- NB still has some ridiculous buff access including potentially free dodge rolls + major evasion, both major + minor expedition passively on good core skills, shade, and more. (no change)

NB will 100% still wreck bad players as they always have and they will still be average/struggle against good players who know what they're doing. A good NB will still be unkillable the same way they are now. The only thing this would change is that mediocre NBs who crutch on cloak as their only form of defense will no longer have a get out of gaol free card they can spam to get away from equally bad players.

All a range increase on detect pots does is make NBs less frustrating to chase down/catch the same way immovability pots do for sorcs trying to streak away from you. Detection pots will also still have their drawbacks of not being able to use better more universally applicable pots (like tri-stat or immovability), still have a 66% downtime on builds that don't focus on cheesing potions and will still be useless for fighting every other class/build.

Yes it will separate the wheat from the chaff. Many players would drop NB like a bad habit but I dunno if that's for better or worse. Cause from what I have heard from others or read on here players are also dropping Templar or not playing as often after Jabs was nerfed.

Vulkunne

TaSheen wrote: »

Hey, guys - did you post about this in the PTS forum? That's likely the best place....

Already one on PTS. That discussion is evolving similar to this one only there are folks over there more unhappy about this than I am lol.

Eatmyface

Best thing ever.

Cloak has always been the most broken skill in pvp, and when used by a good player (let’s be honest, most who use it are bad), the ability to reset a fight at whim is just ridiculous.

Mayrael

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

I can say the same thing about pressing one button that guarantees me a change of position, hard unavoidable CC, dealing damage, and also breaking cloak and possible use of LoS with one button (see Streak) is also too easy.

What you don't want to notice is that every defensive tactic has a counter and every counter to defensive tactics also has an active counter, not just "wait it out" because waiting it out is hypothetical in this case, as I can very easily bring it to a point where waiting it out is not possible because the potion will still be active or someone else will be using it alternately.

Why was Reflective Scales DK changed? Because it was a hard counter to all ranged skills. Similarly here. Hard counter = bad balance.

NB is finally in a good position after years of being nerfed and overlooked in class reworks, but it still isn't a dominant class in PvP, and such a change will push it down a few notches in the food chain.

The fact that someone can't handle NB on live is solely their fault. For example, I kill the most NB because they are the easiest target for me. It is much harder to kill a DK or a sorc who doesn't want to be killed than an NB.

Mayrael

Vulkunne wrote: »

Oh ok then. Well n

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

What Mayrael is saying, if I understand this correctly and Mayrael let me know if you don't agree with this, but what the point trying to be conveyed here is this is a static setting that has a blanket effect on everything within 100m. Meaning this change isn't balanced against anything thus it has no real counter. Its basically a global value meant to 'force' a change. This is why its bad for the game but its not taking into account existing buffs or systems meant to swing the balance one way or another. Its bad and not healthy for the game and if this is indeed as intended it represents a lack of imagination and a lack of problem solving on the part of the devs trying to implement this mistake. Its another mistake.

Furthermore, having played a NB off and on for years, many people see the NB as it is today but don't understand where it has been. Nerfing the invisibility cloak any further will make it basically not worth using. The passive that was supposed to 'buff' the cloak duration has already been hard-set, as you suggested, but it was hard-set to a static value of 3 seconds with full morphs. Was 3.5 Seconds. That is barely enough time to make it worth it as for Stamblade the NB cloak is really expensive magicka wise. I would say as it stands today the cloak is fine the way it is but when you stop and actually play the NB you realize that lag messes with you holding cloak. The ground you can cover while cloaked is paramount and between the lag and lessing the duration of the cloak means it will not perform sufficiently and will really do more harm to the player than good because I won't be able to get any real distance while burning resources trying to cloak.

Exactly. I am against all "hard counters". I don't want any skills, potions, or sets in this game that completely disable a playstyle or even a single ability. PvP is like real-time chess, but when someone has a move that can't be blocked in any way, it's just senseless. The combat in ESO is so exciting and satisfying because we always have a range of reactions to any action.

Just as I don't want sorcs to lose Streak or BoL, just as I regret that the Templar has stopped being an iconic healer, I don't want NB to stop being an iconic ganker. These are the things that give flavor and color to PvP in ESO.

kyatos_binarini

thanks god i'm a brawlerblade

Galeriano

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

I can say the same thing about pressing one button that guarantees me a change of position, hard unavoidable CC, dealing damage, and also breaking cloak and possible use of LoS with one button (see Streak) is also too easy.

What you don't want to notice is that every defensive tactic has a counter and every counter to defensive tactics also has an active counter, not just "wait it out" because waiting it out is hypothetical in this case, as I can very easily bring it to a point where waiting it out is not possible because the potion will still be active or someone else will be using it alternately.

Why was Reflective Scales DK changed? Because it was a hard counter to all ranged skills. Similarly here. Hard counter = bad balance.

NB is finally in a good position after years of being nerfed and overlooked in class reworks, but it still isn't a dominant class in PvP, and such a change will push it down a few notches in the food chain.

The fact that someone can't handle NB on live is solely their fault. For example, I kill the most NB because they are the easiest target for me. It is much harder to kill a DK or a sorc who doesn't want to be killed than an NB.

Oh yeah good old argument "something is strong so nothing else can't be touched". It really doesn't bring much into the discussion. it's like sorc's streak is always an escape goat argument for nb when people talk about cloak and vice versa. And like always the same counter arguments can be used like , streak can be countered with gap closers, regular mobility and it have built in ramping cost increase and You cannot stun someone with CC immunity which can be gained in multiple ways and works against every stun not only streak.

What You don't want to notice is that You are wrong. There is no endless line of counters to counters to counters. For example You gave an example of snares and snare/immobilize immunities. What is the counter to snare immobilize immunity after it's being used? Following the target? That's not a counter that's doing excatly the same what You would be doing if there was no snare aka You wait it out. Snares are being countered by snare immunity abilities and it ends there after that exchange fight returns to normal until snare immunity wears off and snare can be applied again. Also stealth playstyle is way more unique than rest of the combat in ESO so defending it by trying to give example of every other encounter is also not that great argument. When cloak works is the strongest defense in the game it offers both offensive and defensive potential. I find the fact that You find it problematic that You will struggle with more than 1 player using detect pot a bit silly. You should struggle. Like what, You think it's balanced to return to stealth when fighting group of people actively using counters to stealth? It's like expecting to easily outheal group of people constantly applying healing debuffs. There are moments where You simply should die that's how PvP works.

Reflective scales were changed because magicka nb was literally useless in PvP because of that ability. You still seems to not see the difference between ability that is being spammed without drawbacks and something that can be used on cooldown and have drawbacks. Fact that reflective scale was reflecting projectiles wasn't an issue on its own. Fact that it was spammable ability was. Why do You think s&b ulti wasn't changed? It's also reflecting all projectiles and it lasts longer than single use of reflective scales. Because it cannot be spammed. Detect potion even with 1 kilometer range would still not be 100% hard counter, it would be a hard counter with a cooldown. Big difference. And nightblade still have counters to counter detection. You use this as one of Your main arguments but refuse to recognise it here.

Nightblade is in too good position. Fact that some class isn't dominant doesn't mean everything about it is balanced. Good example is streak You've mentioned. You make is to look as extremly powerfull ability making it one of Your counterarguments to defend cloak but somehow magsorc right now is not known as dominant. So how it it than You need to be dominant to have something that is very strong or not?

Nightblades are the easiest targets because majority of people playing them are simply bad players crutching on invisibility thinking of it as "I win button" and they don't even know how to deal with disruption of stealth and all they will be doing will be just trying hard to return to stealth despite having lots of different options. But bad players don't make strong ability a bad one. Going by Your logic fact that people struggle with detect potions is and will be solely their fault.

Mayrael

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

I can say the same thing about pressing one button that guarantees me a change of position, hard unavoidable CC, dealing damage, and also breaking cloak and possible use of LoS with one button (see Streak) is also too easy.

What you don't want to notice is that every defensive tactic has a counter and every counter to defensive tactics also has an active counter, not just "wait it out" because waiting it out is hypothetical in this case, as I can very easily bring it to a point where waiting it out is not possible because the potion will still be active or someone else will be using it alternately.

Why was Reflective Scales DK changed? Because it was a hard counter to all ranged skills. Similarly here. Hard counter = bad balance.

NB is finally in a good position after years of being nerfed and overlooked in class reworks, but it still isn't a dominant class in PvP, and such a change will push it down a few notches in the food chain.

The fact that someone can't handle NB on live is solely their fault. For example, I kill the most NB because they are the easiest target for me. It is much harder to kill a DK or a sorc who doesn't want to be killed than an NB.

Oh yeah good old argument "something is strong so nothing else can't be touched". It really doesn't bring much into the discussion. it's like sorc's streak is always an escape goat argument for nb when people talk about cloak and vice versa. And like always the same counter arguments can be used like , streak can be countered with gap closers, regular mobility and it have built in ramping cost increase and You cannot stun someone with CC immunity which can be gained in multiple ways and works against every stun not only streak.

What You don't want to notice is that You are wrong. There is no endless line of counters to counters to counters. For example You gave an example of snares and snare/immobilize immunities. What is the counter to snare immobilize immunity after it's being used? Following the target? That's not a counter that's doing excatly the same what You would be doing if there was no snare aka You wait it out. Snares are being countered by snare immunity abilities and it ends there after that exchange fight returns to normal until snare immunity wears off and snare can be applied again. Also stealth playstyle is way more unique than rest of the combat in ESO so defending it by trying to give example of every other encounter is also not that great argument. When cloak works is the strongest defense in the game it offers both offensive and defensive potential. I find the fact that You find it problematic that You will struggle with more than 1 player using detect pot a bit silly. You should struggle. Like what, You think it's balanced to return to stealth when fighting group of people actively using counters to stealth? It's like expecting to easily outheal group of people constantly applying healing debuffs. There are moments where You simply should die that's how PvP works.

Reflective scales were changed because magicka nb was literally useless in PvP because of that ability. You still seems to not see the difference between ability that is being spammed without drawbacks and something that can be used on cooldown and have drawbacks. Fact that reflective scale was reflecting projectiles wasn't an issue on its own. Fact that it was spammable ability was. Why do You think s&b ulti wasn't changed? It's also reflecting all projectiles and it lasts longer than single use of reflective scales. Because it cannot be spammed. Detect potion even with 1 kilometer range would still not be 100% hard counter, it would be a hard counter with a cooldown. Big difference. And nightblade still have counters to counter detection. You use this as one of Your main arguments but refuse to recognise it here.

Nightblade is in too good position. Fact that some class isn't dominant doesn't mean everything about it is balanced. Good example is streak You've mentioned. You make is to look as extremly powerfull ability making it one of Your counterarguments to defend cloak but somehow magsorc right now is not known as dominant. So how it it than You need to be dominant to have something that is very strong or not?

Nightblades are the easiest targets because majority of people playing them are simply bad players crutching on invisibility thinking of it as "I win button" and they don't even know how to deal with disruption of stealth and all they will be doing will be just trying hard to return to stealth despite having lots of different options. But bad players don't make strong ability a bad one. Going by Your logic fact that people struggle with detect potions is and will be solely their fault.

1. By claiming that NB is in too good of a position, you are only showing your prejudice towards NB because you are not being objective.
2. Gap closer or speed build is not a hard counter to streak because sorc can still effectively use it, and nothing stops sorc from changing position with it, using LoS, etc. Somehow sorc does not have to deal with many opponents, he just need to use streak/BoL twice, and he is safe.
3. [snip] Defensive tactics have counters that also have counters. I did not say that there is an infinite counter loop, but that each defensive tactic has a counter, which in turn can be countered, and so on. Ultimately, defense has more options because otherwise the one who uses the offensive combo faster wins because there would be no possibility of defense.
4. I mention streak because it is much more powerful than cloak and yet you won't see me anywhere screaming that streak needs a nerf.
5. By claiming that most NBs are weak because they cannot play without cloak, you confirm that you do realize that cloak can now be effectively countered, and the current tools used to counter cloak are sufficient... unless you don't know how to use them.
6. The skill level of players is roughly equally distributed among players of individual classes, claiming that most NBs are bad players once again shows your prejudice towards this class. The truth is that classes such as DK or Warden have simpler defensive tools, while NB is a more difficult class requiring more skill ergo it's easier to kill.

[Edited for Baiting]

Galeriano

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

I can say the same thing about pressing one button that guarantees me a change of position, hard unavoidable CC, dealing damage, and also breaking cloak and possible use of LoS with one button (see Streak) is also too easy.

What you don't want to notice is that every defensive tactic has a counter and every counter to defensive tactics also has an active counter, not just "wait it out" because waiting it out is hypothetical in this case, as I can very easily bring it to a point where waiting it out is not possible because the potion will still be active or someone else will be using it alternately.

Why was Reflective Scales DK changed? Because it was a hard counter to all ranged skills. Similarly here. Hard counter = bad balance.

NB is finally in a good position after years of being nerfed and overlooked in class reworks, but it still isn't a dominant class in PvP, and such a change will push it down a few notches in the food chain.

The fact that someone can't handle NB on live is solely their fault. For example, I kill the most NB because they are the easiest target for me. It is much harder to kill a DK or a sorc who doesn't want to be killed than an NB.

Oh yeah good old argument "something is strong so nothing else can't be touched". It really doesn't bring much into the discussion. it's like sorc's streak is always an escape goat argument for nb when people talk about cloak and vice versa. And like always the same counter arguments can be used like , streak can be countered with gap closers, regular mobility and it have built in ramping cost increase and You cannot stun someone with CC immunity which can be gained in multiple ways and works against every stun not only streak.

What You don't want to notice is that You are wrong. There is no endless line of counters to counters to counters. For example You gave an example of snares and snare/immobilize immunities. What is the counter to snare immobilize immunity after it's being used? Following the target? That's not a counter that's doing excatly the same what You would be doing if there was no snare aka You wait it out. Snares are being countered by snare immunity abilities and it ends there after that exchange fight returns to normal until snare immunity wears off and snare can be applied again. Also stealth playstyle is way more unique than rest of the combat in ESO so defending it by trying to give example of every other encounter is also not that great argument. When cloak works is the strongest defense in the game it offers both offensive and defensive potential. I find the fact that You find it problematic that You will struggle with more than 1 player using detect pot a bit silly. You should struggle. Like what, You think it's balanced to return to stealth when fighting group of people actively using counters to stealth? It's like expecting to easily outheal group of people constantly applying healing debuffs. There are moments where You simply should die that's how PvP works.

Reflective scales were changed because magicka nb was literally useless in PvP because of that ability. You still seems to not see the difference between ability that is being spammed without drawbacks and something that can be used on cooldown and have drawbacks. Fact that reflective scale was reflecting projectiles wasn't an issue on its own. Fact that it was spammable ability was. Why do You think s&b ulti wasn't changed? It's also reflecting all projectiles and it lasts longer than single use of reflective scales. Because it cannot be spammed. Detect potion even with 1 kilometer range would still not be 100% hard counter, it would be a hard counter with a cooldown. Big difference. And nightblade still have counters to counter detection. You use this as one of Your main arguments but refuse to recognise it here.

Nightblade is in too good position. Fact that some class isn't dominant doesn't mean everything about it is balanced. Good example is streak You've mentioned. You make is to look as extremly powerfull ability making it one of Your counterarguments to defend cloak but somehow magsorc right now is not known as dominant. So how it it than You need to be dominant to have something that is very strong or not?

Nightblades are the easiest targets because majority of people playing them are simply bad players crutching on invisibility thinking of it as "I win button" and they don't even know how to deal with disruption of stealth and all they will be doing will be just trying hard to return to stealth despite having lots of different options. But bad players don't make strong ability a bad one. Going by Your logic fact that people struggle with detect potions is and will be solely their fault.

1. By claiming that NB is in too good of a position, you are only showing your prejudice towards NB because you are not being objective.
2. Gap closer or speed build is not a hard counter to streak because sorc can still effectively use it, and nothing stops sorc from changing position with it, using LoS, etc. Somehow sorc does not have to deal with many opponents, he just need to use streak/BoL twice, and he is safe.
3. [snip] Defensive tactics have counters that also have counters. I did not say that there is an infinite counter loop, but that each defensive tactic has a counter, which in turn can be countered, and so on. Ultimately, defense has more options because otherwise the one who uses the offensive combo faster wins because there would be no possibility of defense.
4. I mention streak because it is much more powerful than cloak and yet you won't see me anywhere screaming that streak needs a nerf.
5. By claiming that most NBs are weak because they cannot play without cloak, you confirm that you do realize that cloak can now be effectively countered, and the current tools used to counter cloak are sufficient... unless you don't know how to use them.
6. The skill level of players is roughly equally distributed among players of individual classes, claiming that most NBs are bad players once again shows your prejudice towards this class. The truth is that classes such as DK or Warden have simpler defensive tools, while NB is a more difficult class requiring more skill ergo it's easier to kill.

[Edited for Baiting]

1.Nobody is objective. Any of Your claims is as subjective as mine and I can easily create some personal accutations towards You same as You are accusing me of prejudice based simply on Your subjective opinion.
2.Using streak as escape goat argument is beating the dead horse at this point. As I've said You really need to find somet stronger argument than saying that cloak ifs fine because streak exists. What if both are not fine? Even if someone is using detect potion You can still use cloak by Your logic. You will still get invisibility from everyone and everything else. Detect potion won't be hard counter to cloak since it cannot be spammed. Hard counter doesn't mean someone cannot use some ability it means using that won't give the results ability was used for so succesfull gap close spam can be effective hard counter to streak since sorc wont get the result he was using streak for.
3.Detection is not mostly used as defensive tactic. And Your logic still applies to 100 meters detection potions. Cloak used defensively have a counter that is a detect pot and detect pot have a counter in form of nb base defense. It's as simple as that.
4. Streak vs cloak is extremly debatable subject. Which one will be stronger depends higly on the situation. You say that streak is more powerfull than cloak but I dont think You will claim sorc is more powerfull that nb atm in PvP. One ability doesnt make class dominant it's the class kit that does that and nb class kit right now is one of the best in the game making cloak in its current state a bit too much since it's too easy to deal with detections due to defensive buffs nb got.
5. I just said that nb players are weak the rest is just You adding things I didnt said to fit Your agenda. Fact that nb attracts so many weak players may also suggest that stealth playstyle in ESO is strong enough that many people choose to run nb to carry them through most of the PvP. It's not cloak that is being countered it's lack of skill that is being countered. Lack of skill coming from the fact many nbs rely so heavily on cloak, not practicing active fighting under pressure that when they are detected they don't know what to do despite having enough tools to deal with detection.
6. it's not. I am not only claiming that most nightblades are bad players most of players of any class are bad players, nightblade just have higher percentage of bad players than other classes. It's really not a big secret that nb always attracted weak players. It's not a prejudice it's just a fact that everyone who is not completly blinded by personal view on subject will see. Despite changing metas and many fotm builds, nightblade was always very popular class in PvP and it's really not that hard to guess that popular setups are usually the ones that offer some form of easy mode. In case of nightblade it's stealth playstyle.

[Edited for Quote]

blktauna

Its so easy to tell who has no idea what flares or detect pots are for/ refuse to use them.

Galeriano

blktauna wrote: »

Its so easy to tell who has no idea what flares or detect pots are for/ refuse to use them.

It's also easy to deal with these on a nightblade.

Kaysha

WoW, this will safe a lot of money for me.
I really can´t see myself spending anything on ESO at all in the future if this is what they intend for the class.

JonnytheKing

ZOS_Phoenix wrote: »

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

can we not get a anwser on weather or not this is ment to be 100m

Mayrael

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

I can say the same thing about pressing one button that guarantees me a change of position, hard unavoidable CC, dealing damage, and also breaking cloak and possible use of LoS with one button (see Streak) is also too easy.

What you don't want to notice is that every defensive tactic has a counter and every counter to defensive tactics also has an active counter, not just "wait it out" because waiting it out is hypothetical in this case, as I can very easily bring it to a point where waiting it out is not possible because the potion will still be active or someone else will be using it alternately.

Why was Reflective Scales DK changed? Because it was a hard counter to all ranged skills. Similarly here. Hard counter = bad balance.

NB is finally in a good position after years of being nerfed and overlooked in class reworks, but it still isn't a dominant class in PvP, and such a change will push it down a few notches in the food chain.

The fact that someone can't handle NB on live is solely their fault. For example, I kill the most NB because they are the easiest target for me. It is much harder to kill a DK or a sorc who doesn't want to be killed than an NB.

Oh yeah good old argument "something is strong so nothing else can't be touched". It really doesn't bring much into the discussion. it's like sorc's streak is always an escape goat argument for nb when people talk about cloak and vice versa. And like always the same counter arguments can be used like , streak can be countered with gap closers, regular mobility and it have built in ramping cost increase and You cannot stun someone with CC immunity which can be gained in multiple ways and works against every stun not only streak.

What You don't want to notice is that You are wrong. There is no endless line of counters to counters to counters. For example You gave an example of snares and snare/immobilize immunities. What is the counter to snare immobilize immunity after it's being used? Following the target? That's not a counter that's doing excatly the same what You would be doing if there was no snare aka You wait it out. Snares are being countered by snare immunity abilities and it ends there after that exchange fight returns to normal until snare immunity wears off and snare can be applied again. Also stealth playstyle is way more unique than rest of the combat in ESO so defending it by trying to give example of every other encounter is also not that great argument. When cloak works is the strongest defense in the game it offers both offensive and defensive potential. I find the fact that You find it problematic that You will struggle with more than 1 player using detect pot a bit silly. You should struggle. Like what, You think it's balanced to return to stealth when fighting group of people actively using counters to stealth? It's like expecting to easily outheal group of people constantly applying healing debuffs. There are moments where You simply should die that's how PvP works.

Reflective scales were changed because magicka nb was literally useless in PvP because of that ability. You still seems to not see the difference between ability that is being spammed without drawbacks and something that can be used on cooldown and have drawbacks. Fact that reflective scale was reflecting projectiles wasn't an issue on its own. Fact that it was spammable ability was. Why do You think s&b ulti wasn't changed? It's also reflecting all projectiles and it lasts longer than single use of reflective scales. Because it cannot be spammed. Detect potion even with 1 kilometer range would still not be 100% hard counter, it would be a hard counter with a cooldown. Big difference. And nightblade still have counters to counter detection. You use this as one of Your main arguments but refuse to recognise it here.

Nightblade is in too good position. Fact that some class isn't dominant doesn't mean everything about it is balanced. Good example is streak You've mentioned. You make is to look as extremly powerfull ability making it one of Your counterarguments to defend cloak but somehow magsorc right now is not known as dominant. So how it it than You need to be dominant to have something that is very strong or not?

Nightblades are the easiest targets because majority of people playing them are simply bad players crutching on invisibility thinking of it as "I win button" and they don't even know how to deal with disruption of stealth and all they will be doing will be just trying hard to return to stealth despite having lots of different options. But bad players don't make strong ability a bad one. Going by Your logic fact that people struggle with detect potions is and will be solely their fault.

1. By claiming that NB is in too good of a position, you are only showing your prejudice towards NB because you are not being objective.
2. Gap closer or speed build is not a hard counter to streak because sorc can still effectively use it, and nothing stops sorc from changing position with it, using LoS, etc. Somehow sorc does not have to deal with many opponents, he just need to use streak/BoL twice, and he is safe.
3. [snip] Defensive tactics have counters that also have counters. I did not say that there is an infinite counter loop, but that each defensive tactic has a counter, which in turn can be countered, and so on. Ultimately, defense has more options because otherwise the one who uses the offensive combo faster wins because there would be no possibility of defense.
4. I mention streak because it is much more powerful than cloak and yet you won't see me anywhere screaming that streak needs a nerf.
5. By claiming that most NBs are weak because they cannot play without cloak, you confirm that you do realize that cloak can now be effectively countered, and the current tools used to counter cloak are sufficient... unless you don't know how to use them.
6. The skill level of players is roughly equally distributed among players of individual classes, claiming that most NBs are bad players once again shows your prejudice towards this class. The truth is that classes such as DK or Warden have simpler defensive tools, while NB is a more difficult class requiring more skill ergo it's easier to kill.

[Edited for Baiting]

1.Nobody is objective. Any of Your claims is as subjective as mine and I can easily create some personal accutations towards You same as You are accusing me of prejudice based simply on Your subjective opinion.
2.Using streak as escape goat argument is beating the dead horse at this point. As I've said You really need to find somet stronger argument than saying that cloak ifs fine because streak exists. What if both are not fine? Even if someone is using detect potion You can still use cloak by Your logic. You will still get invisibility from everyone and everything else. Detect potion won't be hard counter to cloak since it cannot be spammed. Hard counter doesn't mean someone cannot use some ability it means using that won't give the results ability was used for so succesfull gap close spam can be effective hard counter to streak since sorc wont get the result he was using streak for.
3.Detection is not mostly used as defensive tactic. And Your logic still applies to 100 meters detection potions. Cloak used defensively have a counter that is a detect pot and detect pot have a counter in form of nb base defense. It's as simple as that.
4. Streak vs cloak is extremly debatable subject. Which one will be stronger depends higly on the situation. You say that streak is more powerfull than cloak but I dont think You will claim sorc is more powerfull that nb atm in PvP. One ability doesnt make class dominant it's the class kit that does that and nb class kit right now is one of the best in the game making cloak in its current state a bit too much since it's too easy to deal with detections due to defensive buffs nb got.
5. I just said that nb players are weak the rest is just You adding things I didnt said to fit Your agenda. Fact that nb attracts so many weak players may also suggest that stealth playstyle in ESO is strong enough that many people choose to run nb to carry them through most of the PvP. It's not cloak that is being countered it's lack of skill that is being countered. Lack of skill coming from the fact many nbs rely so heavily on cloak, not practicing active fighting under pressure that when they are detected they don't know what to do despite having enough tools to deal with detection.
6. it's not. I am not only claiming that most nightblades are bad players most of players of any class are bad players, nightblade just have higher percentage of bad players than other classes. It's really not a big secret that nb always attracted weak players. It's not a prejudice it's just a fact that everyone who is not completly blinded by personal view on subject will see. Despite changing metas and many fotm builds, nightblade was always very popular class in PvP and it's really not that hard to guess that popular setups are usually the ones that offer some form of easy mode. In case of nightblade it's stealth playstyle.

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1. I base my opinion about your prejudice on the basis of your statements, which deviate from measurable reality, which may indicate the above. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just using logic.
2. Detection potion is a hard counter to cloak because A. It doesn't have to be spammed, it's a better counter than detection skills because it doesn't take up space on the bar, ignores GCD, and is only used when needed. It can be crafted with an additional CC immunity effect and, when combined with glyphs and the clever alchemist set, can provide 100% uptime, giving also powerful buffs, so there is no talk of sacrifice. B. Just one LA from a bow is enough to render cloak completely useless and NB loses resources on casting it. Streak always teleports the sorc from point A to point B, regardless of what other players do. C. I don't have to look for another skill to use in this context, it's my decision.
3. Wrong, both revealing skills and detection potions are mainly used offensively. Why? Because there are much more effective and simpler tactics against a hiding NB, such as blocking, shields, and even invisibility potions and entering regular stealth. And please don't tell me now that all of this can be used only if you know there is an NB nearby, the same can be said about detection potion, no one will swallow a potion for no reason.
4. Your entire fourth point is based on a flawed assumption about the dominant position of the Nightblade class, which is in a good place, but is certainly not the top predator and definitely not the first on the list for such drastic nerfs. It's simply not needed.
5 and 6 are simply your opinions without any factual support and do not require any comment other than that they confirm your prejudice against the NB class. Statistics and common sense suggest something else, unless you have evidence that in this case the natural distribution law does not apply, your opinions on NB players are not "facts".

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FantasticFreddie

JonnytheKing wrote: »

ZOS_Phoenix wrote: »

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

can we not get a anwser on weather or not this is ment to be 100m

Right?! They move the thread but don't respond to any of the tags?!

Galeriano

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Meurto wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Fair change to be honest. Nightblades recived many defensive and offensive buffs lately to the point stealth playstyle have berely any risks. You can jump on someone with a gank attempt fail and just safely run away even if enemy used detect pot, then You can repeat gank attempt few seconds later. Longer range will make detect pot what it should be, a potion that allows to effectively deal with stealth playstyle players for a short duration.

I think you would have a fair point if detect pots (increased range imo is a bit excessive) were the only counter to stealth, but they are not. There are already a lot of tools to reveal and expose nightblades who are cloaked and in most cases once they are revealed they are dealt with quite easily. This isn't going to help you against these refreshing path magblades or the meta stamblade builds.

Personally I don't have any issue revealing nightblades today either through skills like magelight or the current version of detect pots. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't really see the reason for this change.

I think You would have a fair point if nightnlade wouldn't be able to deal with all of mentioned by You counters. Many nightblades dies easily because player playing them rely too heavily on cloak thinking it's a win button and the moment that fails they lose their minds. These tools You've mentioned are more often than not a weak option. Good nightblades deal easily with cloak counters not to mention that every cloak counter needs to slotted/used mostly for that particular reason so in order to have a fighting chance against nightnlades people need to first gimp themselves against everyone else.

Personally I also dont have issues with revealing nightblades. The thing is these days nightblades have really easy ways to deal with the fact they were detected which isn't balanced considering how potent stealth playstyle is in ESO.

I agree though that 100 meters is not needed. Not that it would change much between 50 and 100 meters but atleast it wouldn't cause so much panic in many nightblade players. 20 meters is too low though considering that nb that is attacking someone can be shooting snipes from 40 meters away and start running the moment someone will turn in his direction making detect potions and any other source of detection useless. Even meele attacker can pretty easily increase the distance above 20 meters with tools like shadow image or simple kiting and sprinting. Detect potion should be a real 15 seconds of danger that cannot be countered with invisibility which it's supposed to counter.

Of course, there are counters to tactics that counter invisibility. Just as there are counters to shields, fast running, DoT, etc., and each of these mechanics also has a counter. The winner is the one who can better and faster recognize the opponent's tactics.

What you propose eliminates the possibility of countering detection and forces the use of other defensive techniques. It's like with the Shieldbreaker set when it dealt Oblivion Damage to targets that had a shield on them. There was no other counter to such a person than to stop using shields. That's why this set was completely changed.

Similarly, the situation with a range of 50-100m for detection potions you propose. Just use such a potion, and the only thing NB can do is stop using cloak. It's like having a button that turns off, for example, Sorc's Streak or any heal. It doesn't make sense. The counter to detection has always been distance. If you're sniped from 40m away, start running around the nearest terrain obstacle and change position. That's the counter because what you propose is a complete reversal of the situation where the player using detection potion uses an "I win button". Everything should be balanced.

Thing is in most cases counters are built into abilities or things You would use anyway like running. Using detect potion is a specific counter to a specific things where You sacrifice usage of other more usefull potion to get specific outcome.

Yeah that's excatly the goal of detection potion. To eliminate effective stealth playstyle from opponent for a short duration of time. Fact that there is possiblity to still end up safely in stealth against someone who is using detect potion during detection duration basically contradicts existance of detect potion. Shieldbreaker was a completly different story. Proc condition was extremly easy to meet, spamming light attacks didn't cost You anything and set had no cooldown.

Nightblade should stop using cloak when enemy is using detection potion. What is the other reason to use potion? In the older days nightblades could argue that their defense is to weak for detect potion buffs but these days nightblades have enough defense to 1vX without cloak. Yes, counter to detection has always been distance and it's very easy to build that 20 meters distance on a nightblade while on top of that class recived more tools that allow to build that distance safely. If I use detect potion I want 15 seconds of guaranteed detection not 15 seconds of possibility to detect. Even if detection potion would have 1 kilometer distance it still wouldn't be "I win button" because of how many survivability tools nightblades have these days to survive for 15 seconds.

Read my post again. Every counter should have a counter. Let me give you an example. You use a snare on someone with a fast build, but snare also has a counter in the form of purge or complete immunity to snare.

Currently on live, you use cloak, someone uses a counter, you increase distance, and that's how it goes.

What you are proposing will lead to a situation where an NB uses cloak, someone uses a potion, and there is no option to counter it. Moreover, it can lead to a situation where this counter is permanent, which is completely pointless. It's like introducing a 15-second snare that can't be removed or protected against in any way.

And counter to detect pots is all the other defense that nb have currently which is pretty hefty atm. You expect invisibility to be a counter to detection? That's like saying standing still is the counter to high mobility builds. Your example is once again pretty flawed because snares are snare immunities are spammable abilities detect potions are not. In Your example if I use snare that person is using snare removal/immunity than I use something, than that person would've to use something to counter that etc. There cannot be eldness counter to a counter to a counter. Counter with heavy drawbacks deserves to be a hard counter.

So basically You use invisibility as final counter to detection potion rendering potion useless despite the cost that user had to pay. Current live itteration is simply flawed this is why it's being changed.

Yes that is excatly what I am proposing. A short duration hard counter to invisibility that forces nb to use other ways of defense for that short period of time. Also I wouldn't be that overdramatic about that 100 meters range. it will take few seconds to even reach enemy who is that far. 20 meters is simply too easy to avoid for a nb with his mobility, escapability and healing.

I can say the same thing about pressing one button that guarantees me a change of position, hard unavoidable CC, dealing damage, and also breaking cloak and possible use of LoS with one button (see Streak) is also too easy.

What you don't want to notice is that every defensive tactic has a counter and every counter to defensive tactics also has an active counter, not just "wait it out" because waiting it out is hypothetical in this case, as I can very easily bring it to a point where waiting it out is not possible because the potion will still be active or someone else will be using it alternately.

Why was Reflective Scales DK changed? Because it was a hard counter to all ranged skills. Similarly here. Hard counter = bad balance.

NB is finally in a good position after years of being nerfed and overlooked in class reworks, but it still isn't a dominant class in PvP, and such a change will push it down a few notches in the food chain.

The fact that someone can't handle NB on live is solely their fault. For example, I kill the most NB because they are the easiest target for me. It is much harder to kill a DK or a sorc who doesn't want to be killed than an NB.

Oh yeah good old argument "something is strong so nothing else can't be touched". It really doesn't bring much into the discussion. it's like sorc's streak is always an escape goat argument for nb when people talk about cloak and vice versa. And like always the same counter arguments can be used like , streak can be countered with gap closers, regular mobility and it have built in ramping cost increase and You cannot stun someone with CC immunity which can be gained in multiple ways and works against every stun not only streak.

What You don't want to notice is that You are wrong. There is no endless line of counters to counters to counters. For example You gave an example of snares and snare/immobilize immunities. What is the counter to snare immobilize immunity after it's being used? Following the target? That's not a counter that's doing excatly the same what You would be doing if there was no snare aka You wait it out. Snares are being countered by snare immunity abilities and it ends there after that exchange fight returns to normal until snare immunity wears off and snare can be applied again. Also stealth playstyle is way more unique than rest of the combat in ESO so defending it by trying to give example of every other encounter is also not that great argument. When cloak works is the strongest defense in the game it offers both offensive and defensive potential. I find the fact that You find it problematic that You will struggle with more than 1 player using detect pot a bit silly. You should struggle. Like what, You think it's balanced to return to stealth when fighting group of people actively using counters to stealth? It's like expecting to easily outheal group of people constantly applying healing debuffs. There are moments where You simply should die that's how PvP works.

Reflective scales were changed because magicka nb was literally useless in PvP because of that ability. You still seems to not see the difference between ability that is being spammed without drawbacks and something that can be used on cooldown and have drawbacks. Fact that reflective scale was reflecting projectiles wasn't an issue on its own. Fact that it was spammable ability was. Why do You think s&b ulti wasn't changed? It's also reflecting all projectiles and it lasts longer than single use of reflective scales. Because it cannot be spammed. Detect potion even with 1 kilometer range would still not be 100% hard counter, it would be a hard counter with a cooldown. Big difference. And nightblade still have counters to counter detection. You use this as one of Your main arguments but refuse to recognise it here.

Nightblade is in too good position. Fact that some class isn't dominant doesn't mean everything about it is balanced. Good example is streak You've mentioned. You make is to look as extremly powerfull ability making it one of Your counterarguments to defend cloak but somehow magsorc right now is not known as dominant. So how it it than You need to be dominant to have something that is very strong or not?

Nightblades are the easiest targets because majority of people playing them are simply bad players crutching on invisibility thinking of it as "I win button" and they don't even know how to deal with disruption of stealth and all they will be doing will be just trying hard to return to stealth despite having lots of different options. But bad players don't make strong ability a bad one. Going by Your logic fact that people struggle with detect potions is and will be solely their fault.

1. By claiming that NB is in too good of a position, you are only showing your prejudice towards NB because you are not being objective.
2. Gap closer or speed build is not a hard counter to streak because sorc can still effectively use it, and nothing stops sorc from changing position with it, using LoS, etc. Somehow sorc does not have to deal with many opponents, he just need to use streak/BoL twice, and he is safe.
3. [snip] Defensive tactics have counters that also have counters. I did not say that there is an infinite counter loop, but that each defensive tactic has a counter, which in turn can be countered, and so on. Ultimately, defense has more options because otherwise the one who uses the offensive combo faster wins because there would be no possibility of defense.
4. I mention streak because it is much more powerful than cloak and yet you won't see me anywhere screaming that streak needs a nerf.
5. By claiming that most NBs are weak because they cannot play without cloak, you confirm that you do realize that cloak can now be effectively countered, and the current tools used to counter cloak are sufficient... unless you don't know how to use them.
6. The skill level of players is roughly equally distributed among players of individual classes, claiming that most NBs are bad players once again shows your prejudice towards this class. The truth is that classes such as DK or Warden have simpler defensive tools, while NB is a more difficult class requiring more skill ergo it's easier to kill.

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1.Nobody is objective. Any of Your claims is as subjective as mine and I can easily create some personal accutations towards You same as You are accusing me of prejudice based simply on Your subjective opinion.
2.Using streak as escape goat argument is beating the dead horse at this point. As I've said You really need to find somet stronger argument than saying that cloak ifs fine because streak exists. What if both are not fine? Even if someone is using detect potion You can still use cloak by Your logic. You will still get invisibility from everyone and everything else. Detect potion won't be hard counter to cloak since it cannot be spammed. Hard counter doesn't mean someone cannot use some ability it means using that won't give the results ability was used for so succesfull gap close spam can be effective hard counter to streak since sorc wont get the result he was using streak for.
3.Detection is not mostly used as defensive tactic. And Your logic still applies to 100 meters detection potions. Cloak used defensively have a counter that is a detect pot and detect pot have a counter in form of nb base defense. It's as simple as that.
4. Streak vs cloak is extremly debatable subject. Which one will be stronger depends higly on the situation. You say that streak is more powerfull than cloak but I dont think You will claim sorc is more powerfull that nb atm in PvP. One ability doesnt make class dominant it's the class kit that does that and nb class kit right now is one of the best in the game making cloak in its current state a bit too much since it's too easy to deal with detections due to defensive buffs nb got.
5. I just said that nb players are weak the rest is just You adding things I didnt said to fit Your agenda. Fact that nb attracts so many weak players may also suggest that stealth playstyle in ESO is strong enough that many people choose to run nb to carry them through most of the PvP. It's not cloak that is being countered it's lack of skill that is being countered. Lack of skill coming from the fact many nbs rely so heavily on cloak, not practicing active fighting under pressure that when they are detected they don't know what to do despite having enough tools to deal with detection.
6. it's not. I am not only claiming that most nightblades are bad players most of players of any class are bad players, nightblade just have higher percentage of bad players than other classes. It's really not a big secret that nb always attracted weak players. It's not a prejudice it's just a fact that everyone who is not completly blinded by personal view on subject will see. Despite changing metas and many fotm builds, nightblade was always very popular class in PvP and it's really not that hard to guess that popular setups are usually the ones that offer some form of easy mode. In case of nightblade it's stealth playstyle.

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1. I base my opinion about your prejudice on the basis of your statements, which deviate from measurable reality, which may indicate the above. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just using logic.
2. Detection potion is a hard counter to cloak because A. It doesn't have to be spammed, it's a better counter than detection skills because it doesn't take up space on the bar, ignores GCD, and is only used when needed. It can be crafted with an additional CC immunity effect and, when combined with glyphs and the clever alchemist set, can provide 100% uptime, giving also powerful buffs, so there is no talk of sacrifice. B. Just one LA from a bow is enough to render cloak completely useless and NB loses resources on casting it. Streak always teleports the sorc from point A to point B, regardless of what other players do. C. I don't have to look for another skill to use in this context, it's my decision.
3. Wrong, both revealing skills and detection potions are mainly used offensively. Why? Because there are much more effective and simpler tactics against a hiding NB, such as blocking, shields, and even invisibility potions and entering regular stealth. And please don't tell me now that all of this can be used only if you know there is an NB nearby, the same can be said about detection potion, no one will swallow a potion for no reason.
4. Your entire fourth point is based on a flawed assumption about the dominant position of the Nightblade class, which is in a good place, but is certainly not the top predator and definitely not the first on the list for such drastic nerfs. It's simply not needed.
5 and 6 are simply your opinions without any factual support and do not require any comment other than that they confirm your prejudice against the NB class. Statistics and common sense suggest something else, unless you have evidence that in this case the natural distribution law does not apply, your opinions on NB players are not "facts".

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1. it's still just Your opinion based on Your subjective viiew. Your logic very often seems flawed.
2. You can use detect pot only if You are not on cooldown from other pot so anytimes nb will attack You mid fight detect pot not only is not a hard counter is not a counter at all at that time. Facvt that detect pot doesn't take bar space doesn't mean it's free to use. To use detect pot You are sacrificing some other potion loosing some other usefull effect, for example if You are using tristat potion and You will use detect pot than for next 45 seconds You will have top give up a hefty portion of sustain from one of Your resource pools while You will have only 15 seconds of possibility to fight against nb with already crippled sustain. Yes detect potion doesn't take skill slot but contrary to reveal abilities cannot be used whenever You want for how long You want. 20 meters detect radius also means that nb with mobility and evasiveness can still get back to invisibility even during detection period which means detect potion is not a hard counter to cloak. Option to combine detect potion with sets like clever alchemist applies to every pot so I don't know why You are even making argument out of it. By the same logic we can start gloryfying every passive connection every ability have to something else. For example cloak OP because is gives You major resolve buff so it saves You skill slot and GCD. Seriously arguments like that can be multiplied endlesly but they really don't tackle the main issue it's just a distraction from it which really doesn;t bring much into discussion.
3. Read excatly what I wrote. You say wrong and than repeat what I've said in different words. I guess You've missed word "not".
4. Like I've already said You don't have to be top predator to have something that is overperforming.
5. Everything we say here are just opinions. As for factual support last time I checked my addon shows me that nb is the class I have highest amount of kills against especially in BGs. And it's really not that hard to see why after playing long enough. Majority of nightblades just loose their minds when any disruption to cloak occurs and all they want to do is just to reenter cloak as fast as possible doing lot of brainless things like dodge spam into cloak. That is a fact and You know it. Reasons for that are already presented in my previous comment. I am really interrested what statistics You are talking about. You have acces to developers tools? As for common sense it's kinda funny You use that phrase. So when I present my view it's just my opinion but Your view is a common sense. Who decides that excatly? Is there some common sens bureau You are in contact with? Unless You don't have evidence than Your arguments are as valid as mine. I was atleast smart enough to say that this are my claims You went so far to start saying about statistics and common sense when in reality these are still just Your opinions. Also I think You don't quite understand how normal distribution works. You can easily have higher proportion of weak nb players in comparison to other classes. In that case higher amount of weak nightblades will be balanced by lower amount of strong nightblades and at the extremes there will be less very weak and very strong ones. Curve can be change its shape a bit, but it will still be within what is recognised as normal distribution.

At the end of the day You wont convince me and I wont convince You since it seems You are too biased towards nightblade which by that point I can obviously assume is Your main character so bias towards it will be clouding Your judgment. personally I preffer to look at things from a balance perspective no matter what I am playing including a nb. Reality is that 20 meters of short duration detection do nothing against nightblades that are further away which really isn't that hard so change to detect potion is more than justified.

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