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Urgent: Help new players pls zos, vets are speed running all normal dungeons π£π£π£
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caperbβββββ
βWhen you don't want speedrunners in RND's then ask ZOS to remove the 10 transmutate crystals from them.
[snip]
People are not left behind when they speak up and tell the group they are doing the quest. [snip]
When you want a story dungeon, group up with friends, or go solo. As simple as that.
[Edited to remove Baiting]Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on January 4, 2021 3:31PM0 -
MudcrabAttackββββThe incentive to run a random normal is 10 transmute stones for minutes of speeding through a dungeon, the same incentive for a random vet.
They could change the incentive so that a random vet is more appealing, but then few would be queing as tank since many of those dps who were tanking the normal dungeons can't tank Vet dlc.
I've been queing as dps for random vets lately. It currently seems like a perfect balance since those ques only take just a minute, and I usually wind up in a DLC dungeon with a group who are farming something and generally know mechanics.Edited by MudcrabAttack on January 4, 2021 5:12PM1 -
IonicKaiββββ
This is complete nonsense! It is actually the solo speedrunner who is queueing for groupcontent while not intending to run it as a group. The speedrunners are the ones who should go look for their own group.This is not urgent as Zos has already given every player the solution.
When we queue for a random group of players to run a dungeon with we are literally asking for randomness in the type of players to play with. There is little Zos can do to control players in dungeons.
Zos already provided us with the ability to take control of dungeon groups by forming the group ahead of time. Form it from guilds and your friends lists with everyone knowing the specific intent of the dungeon run. Not only will the run be the type you prefer, since you made it happen, but the dungeon runs will be more predictable and smoother since it avoids the random chance of getting someone that is not that good of a player.
This course of action is a win/win.
And yes, this is an urgent matter. As more and more new players(and existing players) are running into this issue. Ruining their gaming experience. In turn causing them to quit, and leaving the game because they want to play for fun. Solo speedrunners and other types of groupdisfunctioning playertypes should be dealt with, as they do not belong in an MMO game. Despite of what excuse(s) they tell themselves, they are just selfish.
You call players being unable to normally pug-group in an MMO, and being unable to normally learn mechanics in the content which was build for it, a win-win situation? ... Very odd. Not to mention destroying the game as more and more players leave due to that type of toxic behaviour, is not a win situation either.
ZOS should control this situation asap, as the MMO part of an MMO is very very important!
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Honestly the best fix for those that want to casually stroll through a dungeon like it is a quest in Skyrim would be to add a story mode queue. It shouldn't drop gear but should give you the skill point for the quest along with the quest reward (which is usually gear). Anything more would be subject to abuse or would hurt the player base since collections work by allowing you to create gear in the lowest drop quality.
The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
Most vet players will let you fulfill quests and such because most vet players have seen quests glitch out but you have to say something. Even a low level character could have done the quest before and it's actually impossible to tell if it's someone's alt character or if they are truly new to the game.3 -
Anotherone773βββββ
βββ
Except we are talking about normal dungeons here which are for the unskilled. So if runners don't have the patience to play at an unskilled level with unskilled people, then they should join/make a guild/group for people like them. Argument would be totally different if we were talking about vet content, but we aren't.
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Those speed runners screw up the dungeon for people who are trying to learn the dungeon, boss, and mechanics. You cant learn the mechanics of a boss, if someone DPSes it down on a cheese build in 10 -15 seconds. Then when these players try to do the vet version of the same dungeon, they dont have a few new mechanics to learn but an entirely new dungeon and the same people that were cheesing their way through normals will be throwing a fit about "how unprepared' they were before they did the vet version.
Edit:
I use to teach newbies to do end game content as a GM in other games. Not allowing newbies to learn dungeon, boss, and "raid" level mechanics beforehand makes it significantly harder for them to learn the later content. Regardless of if the mechanics are exactly the same or not it matters on the fact that if they are mostly being carried in normal they dont even learn basic survival skills. They know nothing of the bosses or the dungeon layout. With bosses, they learn some of the mechanics they need to avoid, if they actually get to see those mechanics. Even if the mechanics don't hurt you, it may hurt them because they have worse gear, worse stats, and don't have the skill or knowledge to counter the mechanics the same way you do. Thus they can L2P and git gud as the practice more and more difficult content.The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
So you are 100% incorrect in that it doesn't matter. Not only does it matter, its absolutely vital that normal dungeons are a learning experience for how to run dungeons, if you don't want to do a vet carry or have to keep kicking "noobs" in vet.Edited by Anotherone773 on January 4, 2021 5:37PM4 -
idkβββββ
βββββ
This is complete nonsense! It is actually the solo speedrunner who is queueing for groupcontent while not intending to run it as a group. The speedrunners are the ones who should go look for their own group.This is not urgent as Zos has already given every player the solution.
When we queue for a random group of players to run a dungeon with we are literally asking for randomness in the type of players to play with. There is little Zos can do to control players in dungeons.
Zos already provided us with the ability to take control of dungeon groups by forming the group ahead of time. Form it from guilds and your friends lists with everyone knowing the specific intent of the dungeon run. Not only will the run be the type you prefer, since you made it happen, but the dungeon runs will be more predictable and smoother since it avoids the random chance of getting someone that is not that good of a player.
This course of action is a win/win.
And yes, this is an urgent matter. As more and more new players(and existing players) are running into this issue. Ruining their gaming experience. In turn causing them to quit, and leaving the game because they want to play for fun. Solo speedrunners and other types of groupdisfunctioning playertypes should be dealt with, as they do not belong in an MMO game. Despite of what excuse(s) they tell themselves, they are just selfish.
You call players being unable to normally pug-group in an MMO, and being unable to normally learn mechanics in the content which was build for it, a win-win situation? ... Very odd. Not to mention destroying the game as more and more players leave due to that type of toxic behaviour, is not a win situation either.
ZOS should control this situation asap, as the MMO part of an MMO is very very important!
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Honestly the best fix for those that want to casually stroll through a dungeon like it is a quest in Skyrim would be to add a story mode queue. It shouldn't drop gear but should give you the skill point for the quest along with the quest reward (which is usually gear). Anything more would be subject to abuse or would hurt the player base since collections work by allowing you to create gear in the lowest drop quality.
The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
Most vet players will let you fulfill quests and such because most vet players have seen quests glitch out but you have to say something. Even a low level character could have done the quest before and it's actually impossible to tell if it's someone's alt character or if they are truly new to the game.
I agree. ESO is not about being restrictive and as such these "fixes" do not make sense.
What does make sense is players forming their own group when they want to run the dungeon in a specific manner.6 -
jaws343βββββ
βββββAnotherone773 wrote: Β»
Except we are talking about normal dungeons here which are for the unskilled. So if runners don't have the patience to play at an unskilled level with unskilled people, then they should join/make a guild/group for people like them. Argument would be totally different if we were talking about vet content, but we aren't.
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Those speed runners screw up the dungeon for people who are trying to learn the dungeon, boss, and mechanics. You cant learn the mechanics of a boss, if someone DPSes it down on a cheese build in 10 -15 seconds. Then when these players try to do the vet version of the same dungeon, they dont have a few new mechanics to learn but an entirely new dungeon and the same people that were cheesing their way through normals will be throwing a fit about "how unprepared' they were before they did the vet version.
Edit:
I use to teach newbies to do end game content as a GM in other games. Not allowing newbies to learn dungeon, boss, and "raid" level mechanics beforehand makes it significantly harder for them to learn the latter content. Regardless of if the Mechanics are exactly the same it matters on the fact that if they are mostly being carried in normal they dont even learn basic survival skills. They know nothing of the bosses or the dungeon layout. With bosses, they learn some of the mechanics they need to avoid, if they actually get to see those mechanics. Even if the mechanics don't hurt you, it may hurt them because they have worse gear, worse stats, and don't have the skill or knowledge to counter the mechanics the same way you do.The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
So you are 100% incorrect in that it doesn't matter. Not only does it matter, its absolutely vital that normal dungeons are a learning experience for how to run dungeons, if you don't want to do a vet carry or have to keep kicking "noobs" in vet.
Normals are so braindead easy they are an awful place to learn to do a dungeon. This includes lower level players as well. Half the mechanics don't even hurt players in any way near the way they hurt players in vet dungeons.4 -
xaraanβββββ
βββββAs a vet player, I don't have an issue waiting for someone doing the quest, and I always prefer to kill as I move and go through all the bosses, it really isn't that big a deal. Sure, we've done these a million times, but no need to be rude just to rush a bit. Oddly enough I just had this argument the other day with a random that was doing less than 25% of the damage every pull and was low level, yet insisted on running ahead and pulling stuff and almost dying constantly. So like all threads of these types: it's not just vets, it's not just "one type of player" it's just that some people are like that.
To those blaming wild hunt ring, you don't get the big bonus once you are in combat, so no, it's not the problem. Even if it was, it's always the people using the gear, you think they wouldn't throw on swift or dodge roll to get major exp. with a bow to speed to next pull or use race against time, etc.?
We don't like doing the giant pulls where you just aggro everything and drag it together because frankly, between stragglers like mages and archers or people moving at different speeds it's actually slower than just killing stuff at it's spawn point if you have decent damage. Usually the try hards that worry most about stacking are the ones that are going to need an ulti to burn the group efficiently so they have to pile them up. We've gone through the same dungeon with folks like that and proved to them its faster to just kill on spot outside of a few particular stacks or pulls you can do in some dungeons. That's IF you have the damage. But I've noticed the same people that 'have' to speed run dungeons and argue about it are the same ones that are toxic about what gear sets a streamer says you have to run. They don't really know the game, they just think they do because all they can do is copy something they've seen. Best to just put them in the useless column and move on.
A couple things zos could do if they cared to fix the issue would be adding false doors (door here is more a term for a separation and much like you see in the game where they use vines or something else will work just the same) that will not be active unless you've killed all the mobs in previous section and/or require every boss in a dungeon (like FG1 for example) to be killed in order to get the final reward (be in undaunted mail or tickets from events, etc). Second one is probably better option to start with just because zos can't even get doors in dungeons now to work right with false 'stuck in combat' problems.
-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan β’ templar: Xaraan-dar β’ dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus β’ necromancer: Xaraan-qa β’ warden: Xaraanodon β’ sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD β’ NA β’ PC2 -
IonicKaiββββAnotherone773 wrote: Β»
Except we are talking about normal dungeons here which are for the unskilled. So if runners don't have the patience to play at an unskilled level with unskilled people, then they should join/make a guild/group for people like them. Argument would be totally different if we were talking about vet content, but we aren't.
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Those speed runners screw up the dungeon for people who are trying to learn the dungeon, boss, and mechanics. You cant learn the mechanics of a boss, if someone DPSes it down on a cheese build in 10 -15 seconds. Then when these players try to do the vet version of the same dungeon, they dont have a few new mechanics to learn but an entirely new dungeon and the same people that were cheesing their way through normals will be throwing a fit about "how unprepared' they were before they did the vet version.
Edit:
I use to teach newbies to do end game content as a GM in other games. Not allowing newbies to learn dungeon, boss, and "raid" level mechanics beforehand makes it significantly harder for them to learn the later content. Regardless of if the mechanics are exactly the same or not it matters on the fact that if they are mostly being carried in normal they dont even learn basic survival skills. They know nothing of the bosses or the dungeon layout. With bosses, they learn some of the mechanics they need to avoid, if they actually get to see those mechanics. Even if the mechanics don't hurt you, it may hurt them because they have worse gear, worse stats, and don't have the skill or knowledge to counter the mechanics the same way you do. Thus they can L2P and git gud as the practice more and more difficult content.The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
So you are 100% incorrect in that it doesn't matter. Not only does it matter, its absolutely vital that normal dungeons are a learning experience for how to run dungeons, if you don't want to do a vet carry or have to keep kicking "noobs" in vet.
I will give you an example for normal teaches nothing. Take fungul grotto 1 which is probably the easiest dungeon in the entire game. The last boss does an AOE attack that on normal does like 5k but on vet does about 30k. It goes from barely hurts to one shots you. How does that teach a player who might not know it exists? Or take falkreath hold. On normal the shout mechanic does like 10k ish if even but on vet it will one shot even tanks. Also there is no explanation really in game that you need to line of sight the boss to avoid this damage and that it needs to be limited to as few pillars as possible or you will run out of safe zones before the boss dies.
Teaching people how to do mechanics is fine. I have helped many players with this but normal isn't the place for the most part at least not in ESO. The gap is just too large. Things that don't hurt or are completely skipped even with really bad dps on normal are the entire difficulty of vet. Vet requires structure and much more from the players and actually makes the idea of a random vet queue perplexing considering how little the game teaches it's players.
Again if the issue is that people are running too fast for ones liking and ruining your personal experience well form a like minded group and don't queue is the current solution. If the issue is quests being broken because of a speed runner I think that's fair and ZOS should adjust the quests so that can't happen (most of the dlc dungeons do not have that issue as they are just kill boss move on and you don't have to be present when the boss dies).2 -
idkβββββ
βββββAnotherone773 wrote: Β»
Except we are talking about normal dungeons here which are for the unskilled. So if runners don't have the patience to play at an unskilled level with unskilled people, then they should join/make a guild/group for people like them. Argument would be totally different if we were talking about vet content, but we aren't.
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Those speed runners screw up the dungeon for people who are trying to learn the dungeon, boss, and mechanics. You cant learn the mechanics of a boss, if someone DPSes it down on a cheese build in 10 -15 seconds. Then when these players try to do the vet version of the same dungeon, they dont have a few new mechanics to learn but an entirely new dungeon and the same people that were cheesing their way through normals will be throwing a fit about "how unprepared' they were before they did the vet version.
Edit:
I use to teach newbies to do end game content as a GM in other games. Not allowing newbies to learn dungeon, boss, and "raid" level mechanics beforehand makes it significantly harder for them to learn the later content. Regardless of if the mechanics are exactly the same or not it matters on the fact that if they are mostly being carried in normal they dont even learn basic survival skills. They know nothing of the bosses or the dungeon layout. With bosses, they learn some of the mechanics they need to avoid, if they actually get to see those mechanics. Even if the mechanics don't hurt you, it may hurt them because they have worse gear, worse stats, and don't have the skill or knowledge to counter the mechanics the same way you do. Thus they can L2P and git gud as the practice more and more difficult content.The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
So you are 100% incorrect in that it doesn't matter. Not only does it matter, its absolutely vital that normal dungeons are a learning experience for how to run dungeons, if you don't want to do a vet carry or have to keep kicking "noobs" in vet.
Your argument is what I have been saying. Those who want to ensure they have a group of like-minded players should group up with such. If someone does not want a speed run and wants to ensure they are not grouped with such players they should form their own group.
When we choose to have the GF form the group for us from random players we have no reason to expect we will be grouped with like-minded players. We asked for random and we will get random.
Further, the mechanics in normal dungeons are too weak to be meaningful. Many of the bosses seem more like strong trash. A player that is interested in learning the mechanics of a dungeon would be much better served by joining a like-minded group and work on the dungeons. Guilds are great for this.6 -
Enemy-of-Coldharbourβββββ
βββββOP, join the UESP guild. They have dungeon night every week where you can request the dungeon of your choice and they will guide you through it and take as much time as is needed. There are no guild fees and they are super friendly.
Silivren (Silly) Thalionwen | Altmer Templar | Magicka | 9-Trait Master Crafter/Jeweler | Master Angler | PVE Main - Killed by U35
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Dhryk | Imperial Dragonknight | Stamina
Guild Master - ESO Traders Union
PC/NA - CP 2250+2 -
Anotherone773βββββ
βββAnotherone773 wrote: Β»
Except we are talking about normal dungeons here which are for the unskilled. So if runners don't have the patience to play at an unskilled level with unskilled people, then they should join/make a guild/group for people like them. Argument would be totally different if we were talking about vet content, but we aren't.
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Those speed runners screw up the dungeon for people who are trying to learn the dungeon, boss, and mechanics. You cant learn the mechanics of a boss, if someone DPSes it down on a cheese build in 10 -15 seconds. Then when these players try to do the vet version of the same dungeon, they dont have a few new mechanics to learn but an entirely new dungeon and the same people that were cheesing their way through normals will be throwing a fit about "how unprepared' they were before they did the vet version.
Edit:
I use to teach newbies to do end game content as a GM in other games. Not allowing newbies to learn dungeon, boss, and "raid" level mechanics beforehand makes it significantly harder for them to learn the latter content. Regardless of if the Mechanics are exactly the same it matters on the fact that if they are mostly being carried in normal they dont even learn basic survival skills. They know nothing of the bosses or the dungeon layout. With bosses, they learn some of the mechanics they need to avoid, if they actually get to see those mechanics. Even if the mechanics don't hurt you, it may hurt them because they have worse gear, worse stats, and don't have the skill or knowledge to counter the mechanics the same way you do.The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
So you are 100% incorrect in that it doesn't matter. Not only does it matter, its absolutely vital that normal dungeons are a learning experience for how to run dungeons, if you don't want to do a vet carry or have to keep kicking "noobs" in vet.
Normals are so braindead easy they are an awful place to learn to do a dungeon. This includes lower level players as well. Half the mechanics don't even hurt players in any way near the way they hurt players in vet dungeons.
Do tell where one shall learn to do a dungeon? Perhaps:
* Vet dungeons? No that is a terrible place to learn to do dungeons. If you don't know what you are doing, you get berated and kicked or if your lucky they just kick you before making your game experience toxic.
* Youtube? Should they study the dungeons out of game before playing? Will there be a quiz later? They should study to play a game instead of playing the game... that makes sense!
* Perhaps a combination of articles on that dungeons mechanics and training dummy abuse? We could toss in a written test on the mechanics of the dungeon, and then a physical test on a training dummy...
[Edit to remove bait]Edited by [Deleted User] on January 4, 2021 11:45PM2 -
jaws343βββββ
βββββAnotherone773 wrote: Β»Anotherone773 wrote: Β»
Except we are talking about normal dungeons here which are for the unskilled. So if runners don't have the patience to play at an unskilled level with unskilled people, then they should join/make a guild/group for people like them. Argument would be totally different if we were talking about vet content, but we aren't.
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Those speed runners screw up the dungeon for people who are trying to learn the dungeon, boss, and mechanics. You cant learn the mechanics of a boss, if someone DPSes it down on a cheese build in 10 -15 seconds. Then when these players try to do the vet version of the same dungeon, they dont have a few new mechanics to learn but an entirely new dungeon and the same people that were cheesing their way through normals will be throwing a fit about "how unprepared' they were before they did the vet version.
Edit:
I use to teach newbies to do end game content as a GM in other games. Not allowing newbies to learn dungeon, boss, and "raid" level mechanics beforehand makes it significantly harder for them to learn the latter content. Regardless of if the Mechanics are exactly the same it matters on the fact that if they are mostly being carried in normal they dont even learn basic survival skills. They know nothing of the bosses or the dungeon layout. With bosses, they learn some of the mechanics they need to avoid, if they actually get to see those mechanics. Even if the mechanics don't hurt you, it may hurt them because they have worse gear, worse stats, and don't have the skill or knowledge to counter the mechanics the same way you do.The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
So you are 100% incorrect in that it doesn't matter. Not only does it matter, its absolutely vital that normal dungeons are a learning experience for how to run dungeons, if you don't want to do a vet carry or have to keep kicking "noobs" in vet.
Normals are so braindead easy they are an awful place to learn to do a dungeon. This includes lower level players as well. Half the mechanics don't even hurt players in any way near the way they hurt players in vet dungeons.
Do tell where one shall learn to do a dungeon? Perhaps:
* Vet dungeons? No that is a terrible place to learn to do dungeons. If you don't know what you are doing, you get berated and kicked or if your lucky they just kick you before making your game experience toxic.
* Youtube? Should they study the dungeons out of game before playing? Will there be a quiz later? They should study to play a game instead of playing the game... that makes sense!
* Perhaps a combination of articles on that dungeons mechanics and training dummy abuse? We could toss in a written test on the mechanics of the dungeon, and then a physical test on a training dummy...
They should learn in Vet dungeons, starting with the easy ones, with a group of players willing to teach them. Not joining a random queue and expecting other random players to teach them mechanics in normal dungeons where mechanics are literally meaningless most of the time.Edited by [Deleted User] on January 4, 2021 11:46PM4 -
Anotherone773βββββ
βββAnotherone773 wrote: Β»
Except we are talking about normal dungeons here which are for the unskilled. So if runners don't have the patience to play at an unskilled level with unskilled people, then they should join/make a guild/group for people like them. Argument would be totally different if we were talking about vet content, but we aren't.
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Those speed runners screw up the dungeon for people who are trying to learn the dungeon, boss, and mechanics. You cant learn the mechanics of a boss, if someone DPSes it down on a cheese build in 10 -15 seconds. Then when these players try to do the vet version of the same dungeon, they dont have a few new mechanics to learn but an entirely new dungeon and the same people that were cheesing their way through normals will be throwing a fit about "how unprepared' they were before they did the vet version.
Edit:
I use to teach newbies to do end game content as a GM in other games. Not allowing newbies to learn dungeon, boss, and "raid" level mechanics beforehand makes it significantly harder for them to learn the later content. Regardless of if the mechanics are exactly the same or not it matters on the fact that if they are mostly being carried in normal they dont even learn basic survival skills. They know nothing of the bosses or the dungeon layout. With bosses, they learn some of the mechanics they need to avoid, if they actually get to see those mechanics. Even if the mechanics don't hurt you, it may hurt them because they have worse gear, worse stats, and don't have the skill or knowledge to counter the mechanics the same way you do. Thus they can L2P and git gud as the practice more and more difficult content.The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
So you are 100% incorrect in that it doesn't matter. Not only does it matter, its absolutely vital that normal dungeons are a learning experience for how to run dungeons, if you don't want to do a vet carry or have to keep kicking "noobs" in vet.
I will give you an example for normal teaches nothing. Take fungul grotto 1 which is probably the easiest dungeon in the entire game. The last boss does an AOE attack that on normal does like 5k but on vet does about 30k. It goes from barely hurts to one shots you. How does that teach a player who might not know it exists? Or take falkreath hold. On normal the shout mechanic does like 10k ish if even but on vet it will one shot even tanks. Also there is no explanation really in game that you need to line of sight the boss to avoid this damage and that it needs to be limited to as few pillars as possible or you will run out of safe zones before the boss dies.
Teaching people how to do mechanics is fine. I have helped many players with this but normal isn't the place for the most part at least not in ESO. The gap is just too large. Things that don't hurt or are completely skipped even with really bad dps on normal are the entire difficulty of vet. Vet requires structure and much more from the players and actually makes the idea of a random vet queue perplexing considering how little the game teaches it's players.
Again if the issue is that people are running too fast for ones liking and ruining your personal experience well form a like minded group and don't queue is the current solution. If the issue is quests being broken because of a speed runner I think that's fair and ZOS should adjust the quests so that can't happen (most of the dlc dungeons do not have that issue as they are just kill boss move on and you don't have to be present when the boss dies).
Just because you have nothing to learn from FG1 doesn't mean other people don't. Not everyone plays at your level and assuming that people do and just automatically learn this game at the same rate as you or even understand the game and its mechanics on the same level is ridiculous. You are also assuming that the only thing to learn is the actual mechanic completely ignoring everything else about group play including learning to play in a group and to play with others. Learning to use their character against harder enemies than what is encountered overland. Learning general game mechanics Learning how to stay out of stupid because why you are sitting here saying " that only does 5k and that only does 10k" im the dude trying to keep these guys alive because they dont know how to mitigate damage yet or heal themselves or keep from getting damaged in the first place.
DLC dungeons get significantly harder as you get to newer DLCs IF you never run vet dungeons and to players new to the game that leap from FG1 to Falkreath Hold to Moongrave Fane, is quite significant in skills needed.
You honestly have no clue what it takes for an average player to hone their skills, knowledge, and reflexes to be good enough that you don't have to carry them through vet content as they limp along almost doing acceptable DPS and heals is pulling their hair out trying to keep them alive because the person rolls out of stupid right into ignorant trying to keep up.
Learning to play well enough to do vet dungeons...end game content takes far more than just making sure you can pass a dps check and studying a few mechanics and applying it for most of the gaming population. Geezus, i see why end game runners get so bent out of shape about players not being good enough to do content with them. No one teaches anyone anything useful." Watch youtube, learn mechanics, do 40k DPS on this dummy, training is over. You should be an expert player now!"
Edited by Anotherone773 on January 4, 2021 8:30PM0 -
RedMuseβββββ
βEveryone on here that advocates for speed runs do not ever get to be surprised when people don't know mechanics in vet. Like ever. You do not get to complain about it.
And imo the rewards for random normal should be a lot lower than they are.3 -
RedMuseβββββ
β
People are not left behind when they speak up and tell the group they are doing the quest. [snip]
[Edited to remove Baiting]
This is absolutely a lie. I've several times been left behind when doing a quest, the group cared nothing for it in spite of me telling them several times to wait up because I had to wait for an NPC to do something as I was on the quest.
Speed runners don't give a hoot about others, even people running the dungeon quest.5 -
Sanguinor2βββββ
ββAnotherone773 wrote: Β»
Learning to play well enough to do vet dungeons...end game content takes far more than just making sure you can pass a dps check and studying a few mechanics and applying it for most of the gaming population. Geezus, i see why end game runners get so bent out of shape about players not being good enough to do content with them. No one teaches anyone anything useful." Watch youtube, learn mechanics, do 40k DPS on this dummy, training is over. You should be an expert player now!"
Actually thats pretty much all that is needed to complete vet dungeons. Know your role, be able to do what your role should do on vet level (in case of a dd doing vet dungeons do enough dps to clear a vet dungeon comfortably), know mechanics, correctly execute mechanics. If all 4 players can do that you dont even need to write a single letter in chat and will still comfortably clear a vet dungeon.
To a certain degree using normal content to learn vet mechanics is actually harmful. Obviously normal dungeons are the place where one should learn all the basics, but specific oneshot mechanics in vet dont do much damage in normal and dont teach you at all that these are something to avoid.
Doesnt apply to every mechanic obviously but lets take banished cells 2 as an example, the projectile the last boss shoots at you can oneshot you in vet if you arent max cp/not blocking/not dodging/dont have invested in health a little bit more but in normal you just take like 2k damage and get a knockback. Hardly teaches you to avoid that thing or that it is dangerous instead of something annoying that just happens a few times.
Normal trials are an even worse offender imo since most normal trials dont have any mechanics at all look at normal sunspire for example, lokke: dont need to drag ice atros in the lightning atros because they dont have health, dont need to take ice prisons because they dont do damage, dont need to block beam because it doesnt do damage etc. Yolna dont need to spread in 2 groups for flare since it wont kill you if all have the debuff, dont need to kill the iron atro since it doesnt do damage, can kill the flame atros whereever since the lava doesnt do much etc. Nahvi, dont need to go into the portal because nothing happens if you dont kill the add in the portal, dont need to hide from the firestorm since you will actually survive it, dont need to avoid cleave from adds since it doesnt do damage dont need to heavy heal marked for death since it doesnt do damage, dont need to smartly place meteors since they dont do damage and dissapear very fast etc.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.3 -
Sanguinor2βββββ
ββEveryone on here that advocates for speed runs do not ever get to be surprised when people don't know mechanics in vet. Like ever. You do not get to complain about it.
And imo the rewards for random normal should be a lot lower than they are.
Many of the important vet mechanics dont get taught in normal. All the vet oneshots barely hurt in normal so people dont learn that they should actually avoid them instead of just taking them and let the healer heal them. Newer dlc dungeons actually have started to teach you the mechanics in normal which is great, but most of the older dungeons dont do that at all.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.6 -
IonicKaiββββAnotherone773 wrote: Β»Anotherone773 wrote: Β»
Except we are talking about normal dungeons here which are for the unskilled. So if runners don't have the patience to play at an unskilled level with unskilled people, then they should join/make a guild/group for people like them. Argument would be totally different if we were talking about vet content, but we aren't.
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Those speed runners screw up the dungeon for people who are trying to learn the dungeon, boss, and mechanics. You cant learn the mechanics of a boss, if someone DPSes it down on a cheese build in 10 -15 seconds. Then when these players try to do the vet version of the same dungeon, they dont have a few new mechanics to learn but an entirely new dungeon and the same people that were cheesing their way through normals will be throwing a fit about "how unprepared' they were before they did the vet version.
Edit:
I use to teach newbies to do end game content as a GM in other games. Not allowing newbies to learn dungeon, boss, and "raid" level mechanics beforehand makes it significantly harder for them to learn the later content. Regardless of if the mechanics are exactly the same or not it matters on the fact that if they are mostly being carried in normal they dont even learn basic survival skills. They know nothing of the bosses or the dungeon layout. With bosses, they learn some of the mechanics they need to avoid, if they actually get to see those mechanics. Even if the mechanics don't hurt you, it may hurt them because they have worse gear, worse stats, and don't have the skill or knowledge to counter the mechanics the same way you do. Thus they can L2P and git gud as the practice more and more difficult content.The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
So you are 100% incorrect in that it doesn't matter. Not only does it matter, its absolutely vital that normal dungeons are a learning experience for how to run dungeons, if you don't want to do a vet carry or have to keep kicking "noobs" in vet.
I will give you an example for normal teaches nothing. Take fungul grotto 1 which is probably the easiest dungeon in the entire game. The last boss does an AOE attack that on normal does like 5k but on vet does about 30k. It goes from barely hurts to one shots you. How does that teach a player who might not know it exists? Or take falkreath hold. On normal the shout mechanic does like 10k ish if even but on vet it will one shot even tanks. Also there is no explanation really in game that you need to line of sight the boss to avoid this damage and that it needs to be limited to as few pillars as possible or you will run out of safe zones before the boss dies.
Teaching people how to do mechanics is fine. I have helped many players with this but normal isn't the place for the most part at least not in ESO. The gap is just too large. Things that don't hurt or are completely skipped even with really bad dps on normal are the entire difficulty of vet. Vet requires structure and much more from the players and actually makes the idea of a random vet queue perplexing considering how little the game teaches it's players.
Again if the issue is that people are running too fast for ones liking and ruining your personal experience well form a like minded group and don't queue is the current solution. If the issue is quests being broken because of a speed runner I think that's fair and ZOS should adjust the quests so that can't happen (most of the dlc dungeons do not have that issue as they are just kill boss move on and you don't have to be present when the boss dies).
Just because you have nothing to learn from FG1 doesn't mean other people don't. Not everyone plays at your level and assuming that people do and just automatically learn this game at the same rate as you or even understand the game and its mechanics on the same level is ridiculous. You are also assuming that the only thing to learn is the actual mechanic completely ignoring everything else about group play including learning to play in a group and to play with others. Learning to use their character against harder enemies than what is encountered overland. Learning general game mechanics Learning how to stay out of stupid because why you are sitting here saying " that only does 5k and that only does 10k" im the dude trying to keep these guys alive because they dont know how to mitigate damage yet or heal themselves or keep from getting damaged in the first place.
DLC dungeons get significantly harder as you get to newer DLCs IF you never run vet dungeons and to players new to the game that leap from FG1 to Falkreath Hold to Moongrave Fane, is quite significant in skills needed.
You honestly have no clue what it takes for an average player to hone their skills, knowledge, and reflexes to be good enough that you don't have to carry them through vet content as they limp along almost doing acceptable DPS and heals is pulling their hair out trying to keep them alive because the person rolls out of stupid right into ignorant trying to keep up.
Learning to play well enough to do vet dungeons...end game content takes far more than just making sure you can pass a dps check and studying a few mechanics and applying it for most of the gaming population. Geezus, i see why end game runners get so bent out of shape about players not being good enough to do content with them. No one teaches anyone anything useful." Watch youtube, learn mechanics, do 40k DPS on this dummy, training is over. You should be an expert player now!"
Actually unlike many I remember quite well what it was like to learn how to do things and to progress but what I learned from that still holds true today. Normal taught me nothing but dungeon layout. Simply put normal rarely punishes you for not knowing mechanics while vet will annihilate you. You have to find a group willing to learn with you or find players that are willing to teach you because the difficulty curve is massive from normal to vet. There isn't a single dungeon or trial in the game that normal properly prepared you for vet. Veteran players that are "elitist speed runners" in your view took the time to find like minded players and learn the content out of the random group queue. Most hone their skills in trials because they are after the coveted skins and items and that's their motivation. To assume that it's ok to exclude vets from normals for not playing to your style is just as messed up as a vet who won't slow down when asked (key word asked because if you say nothing we will just go at our pace and things will get melted).
Edit: typoEdited by IonicKai on January 4, 2021 9:36PM6 -
hexnoticββββwhat you should be able to expect from decent players is that they wait for tank to pull/ organize mobs/ boss etc. unfortunately this is rarely the case in queues, even if you are lucky enough to get a real tank.
itβs not hard for me to keep up in dungeons, but iβve been playing for years now. iβd advise newer players to do dungeons exclusively with your friends, or a casual guild from the guild finder. thereβs a lot of salty people in the queue, so once you hit that button thatβs what you risk getting into.0 -
spartaxoxoβββββ
βββββSpeed runners don't give a hoot about others, even people running the dungeon quest.
I am a speed runner and I care, though I don't know why I bother when this is the typical response I get when other people decide to cause people to miss out on hearing their quest. (These are from same run)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l0og_wC7B6Q Edited by spartaxoxo on January 4, 2021 10:02PM2 -
Pixiepumpkinβββββ
βi dont like fast running peole cause i use magic classes and i run out of stamina when running and sometimes i miss the boss. its no fun"π°πππ π²πππ πππππππ πππ ππππππππ, πππ ππ ππππππ ππ πππππππππ ππππππ ππππ ππππππππππ." β Sotha Sil
PC/NA1 -
Nordic__Knightsβββββ
βthis topic has been talked about since day one of tras stones getting upped to 10 per run and for events that uses GF , ZOS has an good understanding whats being done and why , and us here has gave them many reason why its bad but without an care from them so dont look to see this getting an fix anytime soon0 -
![[Deleted User]](https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/06301530861bfae62d56b72eef4ac33d.png)
[Deleted User]Soul ShrivenHello everyone,
Recently we've had to remove a few posts for baiting and flaming, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.
Thank you for understanding.1 -
Iccotakβββββ
ββββ
This is complete nonsense! It is actually the solo speedrunner who is queueing for groupcontent while not intending to run it as a group. The speedrunners are the ones who should go look for their own group.This is not urgent as Zos has already given every player the solution.
When we queue for a random group of players to run a dungeon with we are literally asking for randomness in the type of players to play with. There is little Zos can do to control players in dungeons.
Zos already provided us with the ability to take control of dungeon groups by forming the group ahead of time. Form it from guilds and your friends lists with everyone knowing the specific intent of the dungeon run. Not only will the run be the type you prefer, since you made it happen, but the dungeon runs will be more predictable and smoother since it avoids the random chance of getting someone that is not that good of a player.
This course of action is a win/win.
And yes, this is an urgent matter. As more and more new players(and existing players) are running into this issue. Ruining their gaming experience. In turn causing them to quit, and leaving the game because they want to play for fun. Solo speedrunners and other types of groupdisfunctioning playertypes should be dealt with, as they do not belong in an MMO game. Despite of what excuse(s) they tell themselves, they are just selfish.
You call players being unable to normally pug-group in an MMO, and being unable to normally learn mechanics in the content which was build for it, a win-win situation? ... Very odd. Not to mention destroying the game as more and more players leave due to that type of toxic behaviour, is not a win situation either.
ZOS should control this situation asap, as the MMO part of an MMO is very very important!
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Honestly the best fix for those that want to casually stroll through a dungeon like it is a quest in Skyrim would be to add a story mode queue. It shouldn't drop gear but should give you the skill point for the quest along with the quest reward (which is usually gear). Anything more would be subject to abuse or would hurt the player base since collections work by allowing you to create gear in the lowest drop quality.
The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
Most vet players will let you fulfill quests and such because most vet players have seen quests glitch out but you have to say something. Even a low level character could have done the quest before and it's actually impossible to tell if it's someone's alt character or if they are truly new to the game.
I agree. ESO is not about being restrictive and as such these "fixes" do not make sense.
What does make sense is players forming their own group when they want to run the dungeon in a specific manner.
The fix is simple for those who just want to experience the story
make the dungeon story repeatable. No repeatable rewards mind you but make it so if they missed out on the story the first time they can get like minded people for a group and experience the story that way.3 -
idkβββββ
βββββ
This is complete nonsense! It is actually the solo speedrunner who is queueing for groupcontent while not intending to run it as a group. The speedrunners are the ones who should go look for their own group.This is not urgent as Zos has already given every player the solution.
When we queue for a random group of players to run a dungeon with we are literally asking for randomness in the type of players to play with. There is little Zos can do to control players in dungeons.
Zos already provided us with the ability to take control of dungeon groups by forming the group ahead of time. Form it from guilds and your friends lists with everyone knowing the specific intent of the dungeon run. Not only will the run be the type you prefer, since you made it happen, but the dungeon runs will be more predictable and smoother since it avoids the random chance of getting someone that is not that good of a player.
This course of action is a win/win.
And yes, this is an urgent matter. As more and more new players(and existing players) are running into this issue. Ruining their gaming experience. In turn causing them to quit, and leaving the game because they want to play for fun. Solo speedrunners and other types of groupdisfunctioning playertypes should be dealt with, as they do not belong in an MMO game. Despite of what excuse(s) they tell themselves, they are just selfish.
You call players being unable to normally pug-group in an MMO, and being unable to normally learn mechanics in the content which was build for it, a win-win situation? ... Very odd. Not to mention destroying the game as more and more players leave due to that type of toxic behaviour, is not a win situation either.
ZOS should control this situation asap, as the MMO part of an MMO is very very important!
Every single "fix" proposed this far is just force everyone to slow down to the unskilled or full dialog level is lop sided the other way. That's not a fix that's forcing "play as you want" to mean "play my way or the highway".
Honestly the best fix for those that want to casually stroll through a dungeon like it is a quest in Skyrim would be to add a story mode queue. It shouldn't drop gear but should give you the skill point for the quest along with the quest reward (which is usually gear). Anything more would be subject to abuse or would hurt the player base since collections work by allowing you to create gear in the lowest drop quality.
The thing that people complaining about speedrunners don't realize is that it's often not that we are even trying to speed run. The gap between normal and get is absurd to a point of being laughable. You basically can't learn mechanics in normal because mechanics that would kill you on vet don't even hurt on normal and some mechanics actually just don't exist on normal because they wanted to make sure normal was possible for players at any skill level. The trade off for that is that it is barely stronger than overland mobs for the trash pulls which means that players geared to do something like vet trials will slaughter everything. You can't "fix" that without making normal dungeons harder which would punish the budding player far more than just having a vet player steam roll a dungeon.
Most vet players will let you fulfill quests and such because most vet players have seen quests glitch out but you have to say something. Even a low level character could have done the quest before and it's actually impossible to tell if it's someone's alt character or if they are truly new to the game.
I agree. ESO is not about being restrictive and as such these "fixes" do not make sense.
What does make sense is players forming their own group when they want to run the dungeon in a specific manner.
The fix is simple for those who just want to experience the story
make the dungeon story repeatable. No repeatable rewards mind you but make it so if they missed out on the story the first time they can get like minded people for a group and experience the story that way.
That is not the issue OP is speaking to. It would not solve the issue since it does nothing to slow the other players down.
Granted, I think the real issue is more about communication as I run with both casual and competitive raiders. With both types of guilds if a player says they want to see the story because they had not seen it then we go slow or let them know one of us has a time crunch.
Heck, if we have a specific goal for the run we say so from the start. Also, years ago Zos made it so most dungeons go through the story regardless if someone is on it or not.1 -
KaGaOriββββI will give you an example for normal teaches nothing. Take fungul grotto 1 which is probably the easiest dungeon in the entire game. The last boss does an AOE attack that on normal does like 5k but on vet does about 30k. It goes from barely hurts to one shots you. How does that teach a player who might not know it exists? Or take falkreath hold. On normal the shout mechanic does like 10k ish if even but on vet it will one shot even tanks. Also there is no explanation really in game that you need to line of sight the boss to avoid this damage and that it needs to be limited to as few pillars as possible or you will run out of safe zones before the boss dies.
Teaching people how to do mechanics is fine. I have helped many players with this but normal isn't the place for the most part at least not in ESO. The gap is just too large. Things that don't hurt or are completely skipped even with really bad dps on normal are the entire difficulty of vet. Vet requires structure and much more from the players and actually makes the idea of a random vet queue perplexing considering how little the game teaches it's players.
Again if the issue is that people are running too fast for ones liking and ruining your personal experience well form a like minded group and don't queue is the current solution. If the issue is quests being broken because of a speed runner I think that's fair and ZOS should adjust the quests so that can't happen (most of the dlc dungeons do not have that issue as they are just kill boss move on and you don't have to be present when the boss dies).
You do realize, that people go to the FG1 at lvl 10, right? Offten with no idea how dungeons even work, mix of "what ever I could find" white gear and only couple abilities unlocked, possibly still failing basic stuff like dodgerolling, blocking and firing right ability now and then. 5k damage is in "it tickles" category for someone of higher level, but it can be half of a health bar gone for lowbie in bad gear. Can't dream about keeping up with high level toon with bigger stamina pool and speedbuffs either, no matter how hard they try. And good luck to figgure out the skip route if they haven't seen speedster take it, especially in time to be part of final boss fight / get loot. Also, "bad dps" by vet player standards might be "impossibly high dps" for pair of lvl 10 beginners.
FG1, BC1 and Spindle 1 are the "hey, new player - this is a dungeon" dungeons, they are supposed to be extra easy so the inexperienced lowbies can complete them. If there is AoE attack, what would be the benefit of it doing enough damage to kill noob three times over upon first mistake (except frustration)? The way it is now it should be enough for player to figgure out "this boss has big red circle around it, which does damage - let's not stand in it / block it / roll out of it" and carry this lesson to harder dungeon / vet FG1.
And yes - bad design by ZOS regarding some quest is major part of frustration here. Can't remember how many times I've stood at white arrow point going "c'mon - c'mon - c'mon!" while npcs lazily strolled over, then had long thorough convo about their feelings. That doesn't shed responsibility from selfish transmutes farmers, though. They signed up for a group activity. Ditching three other people doing content appropriate for their level, which they themselves outleveled 40 levels + 800 CPs ago, just so their run would take 6 minutes instead of 7 minutes (while rest of group has to requeue as result), is extremely selfish.
Not talking about ppl in need to read every line of dialogue and loot every crate and barel along the way, obviously - those can be just as frustrating - or ppl who prefer go fast but will wait on lowbies and questers if asked, but ppl keeping up nice "normal" pace vs. runaway groupditcher.4 -
FaizaβββββThis is pointless because we're talking about being cheated out of exp, time, and skill points and yet you keep hammering on about experiencing the story which is a deflection from the actual issue.0
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jircris11βββββ
βSadly this is an issue in any mmo. Crummy abd annoying but we cant do much about itIGN: Ki'rah
Khajiit/Vampire
DC/AD faction/NA server.
RPer0 -
KhajiitLivesMatterββββAnotherone773 wrote: Β»Ellimist_Entreri wrote: Β»Anotherone773 wrote: Β»How about speed runners "git gud" and run vets instead and leave the normal dungeons to those who want a casual/learning/questing experience???
Now there's an idea
The problem really sounds to me like it's the transmute crystal rewards from the random that incentivizes this sort of behavior - if the veteran content provided a higher reward or the normal contents transmute reward was lowered it might help to push many of these users into the higher tier content.
Before that though it was the pledges. I stayed away from pledge dungeons because that is when you always get the people that are like " I have 5 more toons to do pledges on and only 2 hours before bedtime!" Making 2H weapons count as 2 slots for sets changed a lot of builds so that monster sets werent the default go to for meta builds. They are still used sometimes but not like they were. Though having a single mythic once again to offset the balance.
They should just stop with the pledge system or give it its own queue, that would remove some toxic people from the dungeon queue.
porblem isThis is pointless because we're talking about being cheated out of exp, time, and skill points and yet you keep hammering on about experiencing the story which is a deflection from the actual issue.
i think u would describe me as one of these speedrunners too.,..
if i wanna farm something i dont care for story etc but if someone say somethink like wait 10sec i cant sprint that fast i can totaly wait 10sec but often this wont happen normaly these ones who complain about are either 1. not even trying to come to the boss fast 2. wait a year for npcs 3. fight alone 1add/skipped boss (this happens very often in bc 1 or fg 1 (and if they wouldnt know the way i would explain it if they ask)) or 4. are reading the quest
if i would wait for all of these 4 points above i would so far only be able to do half the runs i did now
maybe some say something like i mensioned above but i ve never met one of these0
