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PTS Combat Test - Feedback Thread

  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    Lord_Eomer wrote: »
    Going away from faster mouse clikcing meta is a good decision,

    I may come back play eso if these changes going to live server.

    In a nutshell ... the people who like these (trash) changes are ... people who don't actually play the game.

    LOL!
  • LiquidPony
    LiquidPony
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    This is the official feedback thread for the Light and Heavy attack changes currently on the PTS. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, please answer the following questions and let us know what you think.

    While we prefer you utilize /feedback in-game and will be prioritizing those reports, you’re welcome to also post in this thread if you’d prefer. Please keep all other discussion surrounding these changes to this other thread; we want to focus this thread on the questions being asked. Thank you!
    1. What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
      • If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?
    2. Approximately how long did you test these changes?
    3. During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?
    4. Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?
    5. When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?
    6. How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?
    7. When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?

    Further testing ...
    1. What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
      Trial Dummy
    2. If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?
      DPS on magsorc, stamsorc, stamDK, magDK, stamden
    3. Approximately how long did you test these changes?
      8+ hours
    4. During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?
      The sustain granted from LAs is definitely noticeable. The increased damage of heavy attacks is also obvious. However, in a heavy-attack oriented build, I still see less overall damage from heavy attacks than I see from light attacks on live.
    5. Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?
      Significantly worse in every regard. The game is 6 years old. Heavy attacking to regenerate resources is so ingrained at this point that I have a hard time forgetting it. I'd been on PTS for days of testing already, ported to Cloudrest to test something against Z'Maja, and for about 15 minutes of kiting adds I was heavy attacking to sustain ... and wondering why I couldn't sustain. IMO it is way too late in this game's lifecycle to just complete reverse such a core mechanic.
    6. When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?
      I tried both repeatedly light attacking off-balance enemies and building a heavy attack rotation around off-balance (e.g., on a magDK, weaving Scalding Rune + Heavy during off-balance). I still very strongly believe that this is a GARBAGE mechanic. Building around off-balance is awful. It screws up rotational flow, and the only reason I can capably do it (on a target dummy) on PC is because I'm using the DebuffMe addon to track the off-balance cooldown. This will be a PITA in real content and far worse than that on console. Chaining 3 or 4 LAs together during off-balance for a big resource boost is certainly effective but also feels totally awful. It's clear, based on these changes and the weird new sets from the Greymoor reveal, that you're trying to force players into an off-balance oriented meta and this is, IMO, a really harebrained decision. It sucks. It's not fun. It's going to widen the "skill gap" further.
    7. How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?
      By and large, it is impossible to run out of resources. I ran builds using Heroism pots and hybrid setups using Weapon/Spell crit pots with no stam/mag return/regen. I used green single-stat foods. I used rotations built around Daedric Tomb and Whirling Blades. Despite all that, my DPS was nerfed by 10-20% pretty much across the board and everything felt less fun and less interesting.
    8. When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?
      High. And I very much enjoy the "fast, action combat" of ESO. I think LA weaving is cool and interesting. The combat is quite literally the only thing that keeps me playing this game, since it is riddled with horrible bugs and performance issues.
    Edited by LiquidPony on March 30, 2020 9:34PM
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User]
    Soul Shriven
    Hello everyone,

    Recently we've had to remove a few posts for flaming, content that is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment.

    Thank you for understanding.
    Staff Post
  • Jarrods32
    Jarrods32
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    Any plans to give the community feed back on if the devs are listen to feedback. Any changes. Any news any feedback from zos would be great other than just removing posts
    Edited by Jarrods32 on March 31, 2020 3:47PM
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    The reversal just doesn't feel good to play with. It does not meet your 2 goals. It does not decrease the skill gap, it increases it. It also doesn't feel intuitive.

    Answers to questions in OP:
    1. Dummy parses, dueling, overworld exploring.
    2. Mostly tested dps.
    3. Total play time is close to 2 hours.
    4. Light attacks hit too low to bother using or rely on. Heavy attacks hit too high, making me question why I should use Wrecking Blow in the first place. They have the same animation time, but 1 costs no resources. I can only imagine how strong Lightning Staff/DW HA is, Wrecking Blow is already of if not the most powerful spammable in the game and a heavy attack is that close in damage?
    5. They do not feel good to use. Nerfed LA too far and buffed HA too high. When I ran out of resources, it felt very awful light attacking 6-10 times just to get what I would of got weaving 2-3 heavy attacks on live with skills. This aspect is inportant. There is no fun way to get back your resources, light attack continuously does not feel intuitive. I like the mechanic for players that want it, but we should not need to rely on this to get them back.
    6. Off balance is very hit or miss. You don't make it clear enough for people without add-ons that off balance has started, this is a big issue for console. It feels exactly the same as live.
    7. In a light attack rotation, the +400 regen was enough to swap food on an orc. This change is a bad idea, in pve, you really only need about 250-320 extra stam/mag regen in any form to sustain a dps rotation. With proper modifiers, that 250-320 regen on live is equal to the 400 regen from light attack weaving on pts, so I question why I would ever need to choose a sustain race? This is also punishing players who rely on heavy attack weaving, yes they get higher damage, but they lose the most important aspect of those builds.. SUSTAIN. They have trouble sustaining and you're taking that away from them.
    8. High APM, I enjoy it, but understand the low apm players need options, I'm all for increasing viabilty of heavy attack rotations, but they can't ever be better than light attacking simply because of animation time and if the damage goes higher in it's current state, there would be no reason to use spammables. There is already an issue with using dots, since they don't do enough to warrant the skill slots.

    My findings:
    • LA Rotations are still the best dps, while now offering +380 regen, negating any need for sustain races and further cementing Orc/Dark Elf/High Elf as the best dps options. This also pushes people into bash weaving to be competitive (discussed further below).
    • HA Rotations lose all their sustain while gaining a small increase in HA dps, they will lose skill dps because they will no longer be capable of maintaining resources. The entire point of HA easy builds is you don't need to build for sustain, this helps newer players because they have a harder time keeping up potions, playing in optimized groups and they can sometimes run into issues casting dots too early.
    • We are no longer able to get a burst of resource return when we actually need it, the only way to get similar return is by stacking consistant light attacks without any skills in between. This feels AWFUL. Being able to weave 1-3 HA's to jump back up is easy and effective, not just for end game players, but every portion of the playerbase. Light attack weaving without skills in between just makes no sense and takes much longer. It feels wrong and slows down combat.
    • This kills resource return for tanks/healers, forcing them to continuously weave light attacks to sustain themselves, where as on live, it's only seen as the cherry on top to add a little more dps. It's not a necessity like on pts.
    • With the huge dps loss on light attacks, but increased sustain, the best dps parses are further pushed into requiring bash weaving to be competitive, I do not enjoy nor will use bash weaving, but I love LA weaving. Most of your player base hates bash weaving, at least LA weaving is more of an even split. Bashing should not do more damage than light attacks, many argue it should barely do damage at all since it serves a function of interupting a target, it doesn't need damage. Why not keep the damage for sword + shield. The changes hurt the best part about your game, the fast paced action. You need to come up with a better way to keep both camps happy, instead of trying to push out high APM play. Please read my suggestions below.

    Please consider this:
    • Nerf LA to 30-40% instead of 78%.
    • Keep most of the buffs to HA/MA damage, but increase skill damage so they don't beat spending resources for skills. 2H HA is about the same as a Wrecking Blow for no cost. This is an issue.
    • Scale LA -> MA -> HA resource return. LA should do very little (50), while HA should do close to the same as live, maybe a small nerf of 20-30% because they do more damage and LA's return a small amount. Buff Heavy Armor and Restoration Staves to compensate for the small resource return nerf.
    • Empower should scale from the PTS state as the final HA capability, but much lower for LA. This goes against being intuitive. Empower should affect all attacks, not just HA.
    • Keep the changes to dynamic scaling based on highest damage stats for LA/MA/HA. This has been requested for years and is the best idea to come out of the pts. Resource return based on type of weapon feels fine and enables interesting build decissions in pvp (Magicka Templar DW with 0 stam regen, relying on LA/HA to sustain roll dodge/break free, etc.)
    • Keep the animation changes and removal of snares on Staff/Bow heavy attacks.

    TLDR: Scale empower, resource return and damage based on animation time and you've fixed most of the problems. Resource return should be more akin to live for a HA(2000+) and weaker than pts LA (50). Nerf Bash damage for anything that isn't sword + shield.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on March 31, 2020 11:51PM
    PC Beta - 2200+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • Eiregirl
    Eiregirl
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    1. PVE vet dungeon solo and Iron Atro.
    2. This first time I tested for approx. 45 minutes but plan on testing more.
    3. The setup I used for this test does not use a lot of light attacks and I did notice my sustain was not as good as on live. Without checking logs I did not notice heavy attacks did any increased damage.
    4. The new paradigm felt horrible compared to live on the setup I used for this test.
    5. I did what I always do and that is I kept as much damage going out as needed to kill what was in front of me.
    6. Ran out of magicka a couple of times and that never feels good.
    7. I do not count APM and honestly I could care less about it. The way I approach combat in the game is if there is something in front of me that needs to die one of two things will happen and that is that it dies or I do no matter how many movements, dodges, interrupts or button clicks I have to perform.

    If the idea is to bring the bottom closer to the top this just is not going to do it.

    I play this game to have fun and as entertainment and no matter whether a person enjoys attacking leaderboards, running trials/dungeons or whatever for fun these changes to LA and HA are going to hurt from one end of the spectrum to the other. Yes people can get use to it but I don’t think this change is needed at least not in this form.

    I know I can adapt to whatever you do and any skilled player can and will if they want to continue playing the game. I know there are people in the game that just can’t grasp light attack weaving whether it is due to their keybindings, lack or coordination or whatever they just don’t get it.

    Instead of making drastic changes why not make some simple changes (or just leave it alone).

    If you have to do something then just increase the damage of heavy attacks a little and reduce the damage of light attacks a small amount while giving light attacks a SMALL resource return and reduce the resource return of heavy attacks SLIGHTLY or scale the return of a heavy attack based on whether it was a full charge or not.

    I will do further testing over the next few days but I doubt I will noticed much difference from this test.
  • QuinnTheWolf
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    and i taught the dot changes from scalebreaker were bad, wile these changes were adaptable
    the ones presented here are not, people rely on light atacks for weaving, the dps drop is incredibly bad and dps is lower EVEN for newer players

    what this update will make impossible:

    veteran trials

    veteran dungeons

    most normal dungeons

    world bosses

    dragons unless you got over 150 players slowly wailing away at a dragon and it will eventualy die
    basicaly anything that poses a slight to moderate to dificult chalenge will be impossible, and whit the release of greymoor comming in may whit a new trial, this will deal a significant blow to overall player morale

    things this update will be good for:

    overall sustain

    thats all, i dont know anything else this update will do good

    my advice/opinion?:

    make light attacks deal the same damage as it always does

    make light attacks restore 100 to 150 magicka/stamina per hit whitoud the resource ramp up (this means combining abilities such as draining strikes, reave, empowered wards minor intelect, wardens lotus blessing, dark exchange, and every other skill of any class or guild/alliance line that restores resources can be used simutaneously, you could then nerf these alittle but in the end? reave would be a great choise nontheless since we already got that 100/150 from the weaving

    make medium atacks restore a little more resources

    make heavy attacks restore the same resources (maybe a little bit less due to the light atacks restoring 100 to 150 per hit)

    increase the damage of the light atacks but keep the time to charge as it is before this update (this means players will have to wait these seconds before it launches yet they wont become spamable as this update is planning

    change non cp scaling by amplifying the stats a little bit more

    final conclusions:
    the reason beginners deal less dps is becouse of the scaling system
    becouse they have to change gear every few levels making it harder for them to focus on completing a set unless they ask other people to craft gear for them

    solutions?:
    make the level gaps wider
    instead of making the gear grow weaker each level make it so that there are atleast 20 to 25 levels needed (30 to 45 for cp levels)
    you may be wondering, what could we do whit the material types that become obsolete?
    simple!: remove them or keep them wilst simply doing what they always did, but whit this increased level gap on wich players can focus to keep their gear fresh and good, make it so that for example: iron/rawhide/jute/pewter/maple lasts for level 1 to level 20.

    to put in every detail: (ill only use blacksmith as an example becouse woodwork and cllothing are the exact same exept different materials)

    iron: level 1-20
    steel: level 10-30
    orichalcum: level 20-40
    dwarven: level 30-50
    ebony: level 40-cp30
    calcinium: level 50/cp1-cp 60
    quicksilver: cp40-cp90
    voidstone: cp70-cp140
    rubedite: stays as it always was

    why make levels overlap? becouse if you decide you want to upgrade your gear you can do so whitoud haste and thoroutly prepare for it

    how will this affect overland gear? by making it so sets you find in the wild will still be powerfull despite being a different level, this means for example that 1 level 5 mothers sorrow staff will be as powerfull as that level 15 mothers sorrow staff, and ohh what do i do? im almost level 20?, no worries, when you hit level 20 only then will it slowly get weaker and you got all the time to get another staff


    and how do we do this for jewelry? simple:
    pewter stuff will be the same in power untill level 25, copper will be the same power from lvl 26 untill you go over 50, silver will be the same power untill you go over cp 70 and for electrum it will stay the same untill you go over cp 140
    but keep the crafting levels becouse there are too few types of mats to make this work, and since having less mats already is a level advantage in my opinion

    what about gear dropped from reward boxes and cirodyll boxes? they follow the exact same rule as the overland drops

    whit the amount of work before youre powerfull reduced, newer players will be able to achieve more power faster
    wile veteran players will have an eazier time in crafting gear
    whit the changes i described to light, medium and heavy attacks, both beginners and vets will be able to achieve reasonable dps and sustain


    changes to skills i had in mind:

    dragonknight:
    molten weapons: molten armaments: decreases the bonus from 50% to 12% (15% for level 4 molten armaments) but now affects both light and heavy attacks

    sorcerer:
    dark exhange and morphs: the resorce restored upon completion is now 3000 magicka/stamina rather then 3600 and the resources restored over 20 seconds are now 2000 rather then 2400 (that is 100 magicka/stamina healed per second rather then 120)

    bound armor: gives either 5% magicka or stamina

    bound armaments: will either add 8% magicka or 8% stamina (wichever pool is highest), will increase the light and heavy attack damage by 8%
    the daggers will either deal xxxx physical damage or xxxx magickal damage

    bound aegis: same as bound armor but now whit minor resolve pasively granted

    overload: no changes

    energy overload: will heal 1100 magicka, has increased range

    converts to a physical damage ability and now heals 1100 stamina, has increased range (i based this idea on hurricane)


    passives:

    capacitor: now increases magica and stamina recovery by 10%

    persistance: increases the cost reduction after blocking up to 20% instead of 15%

    rebate: heals 1500 magicka when a winged twilight or unstable familiair dies or gets unsumones, heals 1500 stamina when a clannfear pet dies or gets unsummoned

    nightblade
    deathstroke: incapacitating strikes , when slotted, when an enemy has a negative effect on them, will heal them 80 magicka and stamina rather then 100)

    siphoning strikes: no changes

    leeching strikes: heal 100 stamina per light attack and twice the value whit a heavy attack, you restore 4000 stamina (rather then 4270) when the effect ends based on the lenght of the effect

    siphoning attacks: heal 100 magicka per light attack and twice the value whit a heavy attack, you restore 4000 magicka (rather then 4270) when the effect ends based on the lenght of the effect

    templar:
    rune focus: will last 27 seconds (31 when at level 5) applies to morphs too
    chaneled focus: heals 200 magica per second (up to 220 when at level 4)
    restoring focus: heals 200 stamina per second (up to 220 when at level 4)

    warden:
    betty netch: will last 27 seconds (up to 31 at level 5) applies to morphs
    bull netch: restores 150 stamina per seconds
    blue betty: restores 150 magicka per seconds }
    (why not 200? becouse they already have major brutality and sorcerer aswell as bad effect cleanzing every 5 seconds)

    lotus flower and morphs: light attacks heal 150-200 magicka and stamina rather then 100-150 (this fits into the rp of the warden imagine the lotus flower invigorating you and your allies when you hit an enemym it saps the enemies life force and energies, got it?)

    crystalized shield: heals 875 magicka rather then 831 (up to 900 magicka at level 5)
    crystalized slab: reduces the magicka restored to 650 rather then 900, and launches an icy bolt back at the enemy whit a 0.5 second cooldown
    shimmering shield: keeps the 900 magicka per hit restored but also grants major heroism when absorbing a projectile

    passives:
    flourish: will now increase your magicka and stamina recovery by 20% rather then 12%

    nature's gift: when you heal yourself or an ally you gain 250 magicka or stamina wichever one is lower, and 100 magicka or stamina for wichever pool is higher


    necromancer:

    skeletal mage and morphs aswell as spirit mender and spirit guardian: either lasts untill defeated or lasts 35 seconds rather then 17 (the 17 seconds is just way too short, ofc they leave a corpse behind, but it isnt the job of the skeletal mage and necromancers lose alot of dps becouse they constantly have to resummon that skeleton/wraith
    ofc this will interfere whit intensive mender, so make it heal a little bit less but it stays for those 17 seconds instead of 35)

    shocking syphon: stays the same
    detonating sypon: at the end of the syphon when the corpse explodes, you heal 100 stamina for every enemy hit
    mystic syphon: heals 1000 magicka over 12 seconds rather then 1260, but heals for 500 magicka at the end of the syphon

    Restoring tether: the healing done now applies to allies in between you and the corpse aswell as around the corpse
    braided thether: stays the same (having a healing aoe around the corpse aswell as on you is a great aoe heal over time, just like the templar having purifying light and cleanzing ritual, the necromancer would have the aoe heal on both the corpse and yourself
    Mortal coil: now heals 1200 magicka and stamina over 12 seconds to allies around the corpse and in between you and the corpse, only 600 magicka and stamina is restored to the user becouse the allies and other things in between weaken the drainage

    passives:
    death gleaning: only requires to slot a necromancer ability and not just a bone tyrant skill, heals for 150 magicka and stamina rather then 200, but this trade of is no problem becouse it now triggers no matter what necromancer skill you slot

    corpse consumption: heals 10 ultimate and 500 magicka and stamina upon casting a necromancer ability on a corpse


    two handed skill line:
    momentum: no longer applies minor endurance, instead it heals 50 stamina per second (up to 70 at level 5)
    forward momentum keeps the immunity and gains minor expedition for 3 seconds per snare/immobilization removed from you
    rally: heals for less and up to 300% bonus depending on how long it was active, regains minor endurance

    Sword and shield:
    defencive posture has the asylum sword and broad, this weapon ability althering weapon will now heal 1500 magicka and stamina rather then 2000 magicka upon absorbing or reflecting a projectile, and will no longer only apply on spell projectiles
    when the effect ends whitoud absorbing a projectile, youll insteald heal for 3000 magicka and stamina

    dualwield: no changes

    bow:
    long shots: will now deal 10% more damage depending on how far the enemy is away
    will also restore up to 100 extra stamina based on how far the enemy is

    destruction staff:
    tri focus: keeps its effects but light atacks restore an extra 50 magicka will heavy attacks restore 10% extra magicka

    restoration staff:
    blessing of protection: stays the same
    combat prayer: stays the same
    blessing of regeneration:, increased size and duration, now grants allies the amplification buff: healing them for 50 magicka and stamina every second for 10 seconds

    force siphon: stays the same
    quick siphon: increases the healing of minor life steal
    siphon spirit now applies minor life steal, minor magicka steal and minor stamina drain, healing allies 600 health, 300 magicka and 300 stamina everytime they hit an enemy whit a 1 sec cooldown

    armor lines: no changes

    soul magic: no changes

    vampire: no need for explainations ;)

    werewolf:
    light attacks heal for 200 stamina (75 stamina if under the effect of bloodmoon)
    heavy attacks deal a little more damage

    devour: now heals 100 stamina per second wile devouring a corpse (yes this makes sence becouse, how do you feel when youve ate your dinner)

    pursuit: increases the stamina restored from light atacks and heavy atacks by 25% rather then 50%
    keeps the speed bonus

    legerdemain:
    improved hiding: stamina recovery is increased by 15% wile standing still wilst being invisible and in sneakmode

    fighters guild:
    circle of protection now grants minor endurance to everyone in the aoe, after leaving the aoe the endurance presists for 5 seconds

    banish the wicked: when you kill an undead/daedra/werewolf you feel a rush of adrenaline increasing your stamina recovery by 5% and gaining 9 ultimate

    equilibrium: now restores 3000 magicka like before but restores 1000 extra magica over 10 seconds (100 magicka per second)
    morphs stay the same

    might of the guild: upon activating a mages guild ability has a 50% chance to grant you unlimited uses of empowerment for 3 seconds, has a 3 seconds cooldown

    undaunted: no changes

    thieves guild: no changes

    dark brotherhood: no changes

    psijic order:

    inbue weapon: no changes
    elemental weapon: has a 20% chance to make a light attack heal 100 magicka, still applies arandom status effect
    crushing weapon: has a 20% chance to make a light attack heal 100 stamina, still heals for 25% of the damage done

    assault:
    caltrops: stay the same
    anti cavalry caltrops: increase the enemy stamina and magicka ability cost by 15% (becouse they inflict excrusiating pain upon its vicims), keeps the mount speed drop
    razor caltrops: deals increased damage done per level

    support:
    purge: heals 100 magicka or stamina (wichever one is higher)to allies (not yourself) if they have any bad effects cleansed
    efficient purge: stays the same
    cleanse: now heals allies for 5% of their max health per cleanced effect, you heal for 100 magicka per status effect cleanced on self and allies




    the suggested nerfs and buffs are based on personal opinion and the changes i suggested to light and heavy attacks

    the ideas currently presented in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517545/pts-patch-notes-testing-ideas-for-light-heavy-attacks-in-combat#latest

    are insane and crazy, wile we all love the effort the zenimax developers are putting in eso
    some ideas are better if theyre just ideas

    if this update become reality then i dont think alot of players would want to keep playing
    especialy since the current system has been here since forever for as far as i know

    i hope this extremely detailed explaination and advice will help whit the correct realisation of such an idea, for it isnt entirely bad, yes its 10 times worse then the imfamous damage-over-time update wich you have dona good job in reverting the damage done to eso as a whole, but i can see where this update is going and what its goal is

    final conclusion: youre better off changing some skills and a small part of light and heavy attacks then stripping everyone (both beginner and veterans alike) of their power

    also dont just test your dps on the iron atronach dummie ;) test it in cirodyll whit serveral developers too aswell as in a solo veteran dungeon (just like alcast does), then try to do a veteran hardmode dungeon whit 4 of the staffs team mebers (2 dds, 1 tank and 1 heal) and do it serveral times on different dungeons to get an in-debt experience of what and how :)

    becouse only crushing an iron atronach dummie isnt going to help beginners and veteran players


    my ethernal grathitude to https://www.youtube.com/user/littlejohn117 for giving me the inspiration and external insights needed to create this, infact alot is based on his ideas so all credit goes to him!!!
  • paul045
    paul045
    Soul Shriven
    1. 3 million dummy
    2. countless hours on life a few tests on pts
    3. the lightattack nerf was noticable with a Lightningstaff but the heavy attack buff was not noticeable maybe that is due to
    my very bad ping on pts but overall the lightningstaff heavy attack did hit for more dmg on the life server i don't know what
    you have done here but my heavy attacks hit for less on pts same gear, same skills same mundus.... maybe this has
    something to do with the parse on life beeing shorter because at the 3 million dummy on life i do about 45k to 50k dps while
    my best parse on pts was around 45k max, so like a bottom of the barrel lifeparse. Depending on critluck as i said same
    gear same cp same mundus same everything. my build consists of 6 dots with lightattacks between them and 2 heavy
    attacks frontbar every rotation. so the amount of heavy attacks done per parse is in my opinion big enough to be a valid
    samplesize. Zenimax claimed a dmg increase on lightningstaff-heavie-attacks in the ballpark of 30% +190%buff on the last
    tick even if my best pts parse is 5k aka 10% worse compared to a lifeparse, how can the heavyattacks on life deal more dmg
    compared to pts?


  • MyPrist
    MyPrist
    ✭✭✭
    Heavy attacks buff what ?

    Heavy attack was nerfed with this changes ! No buff at ALL.

    This update kills all good heavy attack builds - for LA builds it is not a big nerf - you just remore CP from light attacks damage and put all mag regen for example to magick damage - not a big changes.

    Heavy attack builds = RIP with this update, becouse the main idea of a lot ofheavy attack vuilds was restore resources for hard expancive skills with it.
    They remove AOE heavu attack damage from lightning stuff.

    They just RIP heavy attacks - just believe me, i got 50+ on heavy attacks even when my moltan armaments did not work !!!
    52k with it worked correct - i play Heavy attack builds for 2 years it was perfect - now they are RIP with this stupid update.

    When new combat TEAM change some thing they RIP ALL.

    Make some thing better = RIP

    Fix = RIP

    Optimization = RIP / Do not even work/

    https://youtu.be/JI32OoKt8uU

    https://youtu.be/rwEO-7MtwO4

    It is like example of how it is before PTS.

    --- --- ---

    It is not really hard to change all gear for me - and play the same, but:

    For this year i will change gear for 4 time !!! It is RIP for not beta test game - i have not got unlimited money for changing gear each time ZOS - "fix some thing to unplayable".

    I am already have not no reason to farm each 3 month for new gear update - it is not a game - it is not even stabile beta test !!!

    If this update comes to life - it will be 4 rebolance for this year = buy buy the game, new combat team will RIP it with changes like that.
  • TheFM
    TheFM
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    MyPrist wrote: »
    Heavy attacks buff what ?

    Heavy attack was nerfed with this changes ! No buff at ALL.

    This update kills all good heavy attack builds - for LA builds it is not a big nerf - you just remore CP from light attacks damage and put all mag regen for example to magick damage - not a big changes.

    Heavy attack builds = RIP with this update, becouse the main idea of a lot ofheavy attack vuilds was restore resources for hard expancive skills with it.
    They remove AOE heavu attack damage from lightning stuff.

    They just RIP heavy attacks - just believe me, i got 50+ on heavy attacks even when my moltan armaments did not work !!!
    52k with it worked correct - i play Heavy attack builds for 2 years it was perfect - now they are RIP with this stupid update.

    When new combat TEAM change some thing they RIP ALL.

    Make some thing better = RIP

    Fix = RIP

    Optimization = RIP / Do not even work/

    https://youtu.be/JI32OoKt8uU

    https://youtu.be/rwEO-7MtwO4

    It is like example of how it is before PTS.

    --- --- ---

    It is not really hard to change all gear for me - and play the same, but:

    For this year i will change gear for 4 time !!! It is RIP for not beta test game - i have not got unlimited money for changing gear each time ZOS - "fix some thing to unplayable".

    I am already have not no reason to farm each 3 month for new gear update - it is not a game - it is not even stabile beta test !!!

    If this update comes to life - it will be 4 rebolance for this year = buy buy the game, new combat team will RIP it with changes like that.

    Its pretty much the reason I am down to using only 3 toons. And depending on the vampire changes, I could be down to 1.
  • mickelstein
    mickelstein
    Soul Shriven
    1. What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
    If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?
    Rotations were tested on trial iron atronoch dummy and 6 mil skeleton dummy. So far, I have tested with stamblade and stam necro. I primarily DPS on live server, but I have fourteen characters created on my PC NA account, including a tank, healer, and mag and stam dps from all classes and 980+ CP earned. I transferred to PC from PS4, where I also have a full account with about 930+ CP earned.
    2. Approximately how long did you test these changes?
    I have tested the new changes about one hour on PTS so far.
    3. During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?
    I most definitely noticed that light attacking restored resources. My stamina never dropped below 80-90% with my normal rotation on either character tested, even with new moon's 5% cost increase on my front bar with the nightblade. The dps drop was between 2-5k over the course of the test. I guess heavy attacks do more damage, but they are still too slow and result in a lower dps than light attack weaving (about 5k), and in addition the siphon will not activate coming directly off a heavy attack on the necro. I literally had to let my heavy attack complete, stop moving for a second, and then cast siphon just to get it to work. So not only is the damage not enough, its literally breaking ability weaving altogether.
    2. Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?
    It feels worse. Much much worse. I cannot overstate how much worse this is. In addition, the changes don't make sense logically. Heavy attacking was slower and gave resources back because it puts you in a vulnerable position in both pve and pvp content, in order to capitalize on gaining resources back and taking advantage of off balance. It was a tool that veteran players had to learn when to use and when not to use. These changes do not really make heavy attacks noticeably better for a constant rotation, yet penalize you for using a light attack weaving rotation that we have spent years perfecting.
    5. When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?
    I was not able to notice any noticeable advantage the PTS changes to off balance provided over the live server. On live, when managing trial and dungeon mechanics in veteran content, you don't really have the time to be able to fully utilize this anyway, apart from maybe sneaking a heavy attack in when you see off balance active. Apart from getting tactician bonus in CP points, off balance is not something that can even be effectively utilized most of the time in PVE.
    6. How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?
    The only time resources got drained was when testing a fully bash weave rotation. Light attack rotation left stamina pools at 80-90% at all times, as did heavy attacks because resource drain was slowed due to slower skill use. Learning to maintain resource pools with light attack weaving was something that took years to master. It is already frustrating enough to queue for vet daily pledges as a tank to get two DPS that do nothing but light attack, and my tank with Leeching Plate, Ebon, and Lord Warden that might crack 8k DPS when Leeching procs on a big mob does close to half the group damage. These changes will not help new players who haven't put in time to learn core mechanics of the game, and it severely penalizes veteran players who have spent hundreds of hours in their house on their training dummies mastering their craft.
    7. When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?
    I play at a high attack rate, definitely over 200 per minute, and yes, I enjoy playing at that rate. I've spent four years studying build guides, reading patch notes, practicing for hours on end on training dummies to sustain high action per minute rotations in PVE. I understand that metas change, I've had to adjust builds for patches and that's fine. That's not what this is.
    This is fundamentally changing the core mechanics of this game, mechanics that actually work and keep people coming back every day. This game's combat sytem is why I play this game and not WoW or FFXIV. The combat in this game (barring the actual issues this game has that should be fixed, which is bad server response, horrible ping spikes, and frequent crashing), is designed to be fast paced and fluid. I feel extremely penalized with these changes. If this or a close variation of this goes live, I will probably end up having to decide whether to relearn combat mechanics that I will not enjoy, or find another MMO that I will enjoy playing.

    On behalf of many veteran players, please for the love of God, DO NOT LET THESE CHANGES HAPPEN. Light and heavy attacks on the live server are something that works and something that, if I had to guess, a very large majority of the population has no issues with. You say this change is to prevent players who are button mashing and just spamming a large amount of abilities to win. We who have spent years practicing are not button mashing, we have learned and mastered the art of combat in this game. Please don't penalize us for that.
  • red_emu
    red_emu
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    So the new system is going live as it is 100%.

    Great.

    What's the point of feedback thread then?
    PC - EU:
    Falathren Noctis - AD MagNecro
    Falathren - AD StamSorc
    Falathren Eryndaer - AD StamDen
    Falathren Irimion - AD MagPlar
    Talagan Falathren - AD StamDK
    Falathren Infernis - AD MagDK
    Your-Ex - AD MagBlade
  • Ashgard23
    Ashgard23
    ✭✭✭
    1. What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
    If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?

    Open PVE and Target Dummy.

    2. Approximately how long did you test these changes?

    2h+

    3. During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?

    Answer to first question is yes and yes.
    Well I tryed heavy attack rotation with light weave after skills and one rotation with just light attacks.Light attack rotation is still superior to heavy attack rotation and now with even better sustain...

    4. When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?

    Havent noticed anything specific...

    5. How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?

    Havent realy, sustain seems much better on PTS.

    6. When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?

    Depends on content I play and groups I play with.So basicly all the APM tiers that you are asking for.I havent done any dungeons on PTS but I usualy have problem with latency and fps.So yes I get punished playing high APM n live I do click but game does nothing...
    Thats however an old problem specialy in raids and AvA,so I kinda got used to it...
    I enjoy playing in all APM tiers,tho haveing latency and fps problems I get no joy playing raids and AvA its just to laggy and unresponsive...
    I suport the changes but think light attacks should not restore resources,maybe some other mechanic but not resources...
  • Moonsorrow
    Moonsorrow
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Was gonna give detailed feedback, on how these changes are bad to the game and how they do not work as intended..

    but then remembered the ignored feedback and effort from the previous pts cycles, so not gonna bother anymore.

    Changes will go through pretty much like they are suggesting to be "just for testing".

    So then the game will have both the current bad performance AND these LA/HA changes.

    What will be soon left anymore of the game/combat we used to love?

    Seeing the Greymoor PTS notes will be pretty much the deciding point for me personally if our relationship continues or.. if we (me and this game i used to love) have just "grown apart" too much.

    I know, cannot be selfish and demand the game to be 100% of what i like, but if pretty much everything is soon gone of the things i liked (many class skills butchered, playstyles, fast & fuild combat/block, small illusion of balance instead of clearly made FOTM classes/specs), then why would i keep playing? Just for the memories of old better times? Just for chatting to friends since game itself is laggy mess (PC EU) that does not work most times?

    Maybe some new players like these changes, but personally i do not know anyone who likes these - so why (again) changing/fixing something that is not broken.. last year or year and a half the game has been so lost with its up and down audit - and now this.. :|

  • HEIIMS
    HEIIMS
    ✭✭✭
    -What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
    If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?


    Target dummy (21m), dd, dd main on live.

    -Approximately how long did you test these changes?

    2h+

    -During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?


    Yes I noticed both changes to Light and Heavy attacks. Sustain using standard light attack weaving was absolutely insane using my current stamina necromancer build I use on live servers (Maarselok/Relequen/Lokkestiz). I'd never go below 80% of my stamina pool. I tried parsing using as many bash weaves as possible, and was able to freely bash weave for the majority of the parse, even in execute where you'd use whirling blades which is a very costly spammable, this resulted in bashes having way more significant impact to my dps. Light attacks did around the same dps as my Barbed trap, which is in all honesty laughable. Overall dps seems to be around 10.638% lower compared to live on this specific build (with bash weaving). Which is ok on "paper", but this requires you to be perma bash weave, which laughably goes against this whole high APM and skill gap nonsense.
    I also tried full Heavy attack rotation, which resulted in about 15-20k lessdps than la + bash rotation, it felt very clunky and unintuitive.

    -Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?

    It feels WAY worse than what we have on live servers currently. The only positive thing about it was the extra sustain, but atm sustain on live servers is very manageable already. Also Heavy attacks can be "line of sighted" and with current server performance and delay, you wouldn't be able to even track if you fully charged your heavy attack or not.

    -When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?

    I didn't track Off Balance specifically, but from reading general combat reports it seems that in most cases heavy attacking during Off Balance would result in more dps than using Light attacks + spammable, which imo is very bad design, it breaks your rotation and general flow of combat, you can argue it adds more dynamic to the fight, but in reality it just seems slugish, unresponsive and plain lazy, it also requires you to install another addon to effectively track whenever your target is Off Balance, it is very difficult to explain this mechanic to new/less experienced players, and just adds unnecessary confusion, especially since this mechanic is not explained through in-game tutorials or anywhere else really (aside from player made content ofc).

    -How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?

    I never ran into anything close to having sustain issues.

    -When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?

    Let's be honest here 200 is no way near "high" APM in most fast paced video games despite their genre, but I guess I fall under this category. And yes, it does feel like all this time and effort I put into learning how dps effectively has been watered down in a hopeless attempt to bridge the skill gap with these proposed changes. While in reality all these changes will make the gap even larger, you'll need "higher APM" to achieve higher dps numbers, so in the end you'll have to work more and get less to compete in engame pve, which is simply unfun.
    P.S. please fix the servers, or at least come through with a statement on what are the issues and how close you are to solving them.
    Edited by HEIIMS on April 7, 2020 4:57PM
  • ZOS_GinaBruno
    ZOS_GinaBruno
    Community Manager
    Hi everyone, thank you so much for all the feedback you gave during this test. Brian just posted an update on these changes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6696597/#Comment_6696597
    Gina Bruno
    Senior Creator Engagement Manager
    Dev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter | My Twitter
    Staff Post
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