PTS Combat Test - Feedback Thread

Qbiken

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

csbeau1969 wrote: »

The changes are logical and do not have a significant impact on a person's ability to achieve similar DPS. It should be noted that there are more then just DPS in the game; impact on tanks and healers must also be considered. Tanks and healers need to play strategically and watch the tide of the battle closely. The changes (reduced APM) does allow for a more strategic game play.

What I like most about the change is "class identity". By changing the sustain mechanism to light attacks and increasing heavy attack damage; it should have the side benefit of using more of our class abilities. Today, so much of our DPS comes from light attack weaving; that does not really drive class identity. Creating a mechanism where we use more abilities as we have more stamina or magicka; theoretically, that could lead to better class identity.

I think that all of the above are good directions for ESO to take; more strategic game play, more use of abilities and a chance for better class identity.

Thank you ZOS once again for sharing some potential direction on PTS. I hope you move forward with it.

csbeau

Tanks and healers now Need more APM if they want to Keep up Sustain from live because they will have to do Minimum 4 consecutive light attacks to reach the resource restore from a 0.8 seconds cast time heavy attack on Sword and Shield for a tank. Situation is similar for a healer.
The more you heavy attack the less class abilities (or abilities in General) you use.

But xynode said so, so it must be true........

Sanguinor2

Qbiken wrote: »

But xynode said so, so it must be true........

Yeah my bad

Frilleon

These changes come too late in the game and as a punishment to the players who have adapted. 3 years ago when the game was still newish & the influx of players was healthy would’ve been the time to make this adjustment. I was once a skill mashing, random armor wearing noob who didn’t want to fit the meta but still wanted to participate in endgame content, but this was not an option, our choice was to conform or be left out. We got on board & many of us have worked very hard to get where we are and now you propose sundering the entire combat system (again) to lessen the gap between casual & serious players. This is a mistake of epic proportions. You should be bringing the bottom up, not destroying what we have all worked hard for. A previous commenter mentioned the ping pong of sets and skill bonuses, it’s ludicrous tbh, as a magplar main I’ve seen shards altered to more damage, higher cost and then lower again in every patch since Elsweyr & I have to wonder how confused the people making these decisions must be, do they even play the game? I’m guessing not. It becomes more apparent with every patch that whoever is calling the shots really has no idea or doesn’t care what the players in this game really want. Examine where your monetary support comes from, do the new players commonly subscribe to plus immediately, do they drop a mint on crown crates? The answer is mostly no. Do your pvp players support the crown store, the answer again is mostly no. Your longtime PvE community is the cash cow here & yet you really don’t do much for us. @ZOS_GinaBruno does the person who is in charge of making & implementing these changes ultimately plan to drive us all away, in turn making your jobs obsolete as well? It sure seems that way.

Frilleon

JanTanhide wrote: »

Do not like these changes at all. Not one bit. I rarely do light attacks now and now I will be forced to to get resources back?

Are you kidding? And removing resource return from heavy attacks? Really?

Hundreds of thousands of players know how that light attacks and heavy attacks do damage and that heavy attacks also return resources. Many builds rely on these two simple mechanics. Now you want to change this completely?

The pendulum really swings from one end of the spectrum to the other with you at ZOS. You guys need a GLOBAL COOL DOWN yourselves. Stop coming up with drastic changes to the Combat system. Can you not tell by all the feed back over the past four years what your customer base likes and doesn't like?

Good grief.

This. In every way, this.

Frilleon

I have one more point to make, if you’re trying for a more realistic combat experience (in a fantasy game, lol) then a heavy attack rotation is counter intuitive. Absolutely no one is going to win a fight by using what should be a final blow, something used say in a hypothetical execute phase, as a constant attack. The result of such tactics would be a drain on one’s stamina, a tired out individual will get sloppy and make more mistakes. If you’re going to make changes, consider rewarding a smarter play style, make heavy attacks part of the execute, as part of the normal rotation from 100-20/25% roughly they are too cumbersome & just don’t feel right. Please, please listen to everyone here who cares enough to engage in your forums before you do something so drastic. @ZOS_GinaBruno Y’all have a pretty sour history of listening to us, make your performance changes include communication, for the love of all of us who care about this game.

haploeb14_ESO

I'm not reading 8 pages. I just want to know how the heck anyone even knows what their, APM, is

Faulgor

I made a very long post about my thoughts on the changes in a separate thread, however for consolidation I thought I might copy the part with specific feedback here as well.

I didn't plan to engage with this topic much further, but after reading code65536's great post and everyone's thoughtful discussion in the comments, some concepts and issues seemed to rise to the top that compelled me to write up some thoughts and suggestions of my own. I'll preface this with a disclaimer that I am an idiot who knows nothing about ESO in particular and game design in general outside of playing since beta and being with the franchise since Morrowind. While I participate in all content, I'm not excellent in any of them. If you agree with any of this, know that you agree with a fool.

ZOS' Goals

First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible. Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb.

Fact of the matter is, depending on the content, there's a lot going on in your game!
Short of removing those gameplay mechanics and nerfing encounters - having to dodge or block in time, keeping your buffs up, etc. - there is little that can be done for non-DPS roles. One option is to increase buff times across the board (ESO has very short ones as is), but that would conflict with a fast-paced, resource-based gameplay in some ways. It might be best if we concentrate our efforts on DPS roles for now, which most players have to engage with anyhow for the majority of the game's content.

APM is not really something most players think of when considering ESO's combat. There is a limit to how many actions you can perform, and it is centered around the 1-second global cooldown. Higher APMs are only possible in conjunction with the priority system and animation cancelling, which admittedly many people seem to struggle with. Most of these priorities, however, are set up in service to the player, to help them remain in control when they can use blocking or dodging at any time they need to. It seems to me the relevant stumbling block are not these defensive animation cancels, but the offensive one in the form of basic attack weaving, which we'll get to later.

However, what I want to draw attention to is that not all low-APM players are created equal, and all these groups might require different solutions to help them narrow the skill gap.

• For one, it does not mean you are casual. You can be very engaged with the game and want to play at a high level, but struggle physically or mentally with too many things going on at once. In the past you might have had success with heavy attack builds, but since the shift to a light-attack meta, you couldn't keep up anymore.
• A specific yet very common subsection of those players are the ones that do play light attack rotations, but struggle with consistent weaving in particular. These are often referred to as the "middle class" players - not at the top, but trying to emulate their playstyle.
• Another common set of low-APM players are the so called light-attack spammers. People who are either new to the game, do not care to improve their gameplay because it is sufficient for the content they do, or the classic "casuals". Sometimes, they might be used to relying on basic attacks from other games (even Elder Scrolls games), and approach ESO in the same way. Most of these currently prefer light attacks over heavies because they are instant, deal more damage in the same time, and thus heavy attacks don't feel very fun to use.
• The last group, which seems less common, largely ignores basic attacks altogether and just wants to cast skills all day. For the new or learning player, this is like a stage between the light-attack spammer and becoming a middle-class player, when they realize they have a lot of skills at their disposal and want to try them out, but don't have the hang of weaving or rotations yet. Those hard-casting Crystal Fragments, for example.

Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options.

I wholeheartedly agree on this. Virtually every RPG I've played had differences in attackspeed across various classes and roles, but in ESO, everyone is playing with the same 1-second global cooldown speed. This makes even apparently very different builds - magicka vs stamina, for example - feel very similar. Unless we'd want to go faster and burn a hole through the servers, the only option is to have slower, lower-APM playstyles.
Note: This is not just about giving an option for players who "can't keep up" or are still learning. It's about playstyle diversity in a role playing game, and I'm happy ZOS acknowledges this.

This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP.

PvP is a very different beast than even veteran PvE, and it will be difficult to offer lower APM options when you have to react (or rather, pro-act) to a lot of things outside of the control of even the designers of this game. Offensively, it might be done by strengthening DoT builds again (uh-oh), so low-APM players wouldn't have to remain engaged continuously. Another option could be to improve heavy attacks in general. I'll try to consider impacts on PvP in my suggestion.

Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.

I still recall when this change has been made, and I said as much back then. Resource restore made sense on Restoration Staffs (it's right there in the name), but it never should have been expanded to other heavy attacks. Channeling a heavy-hitting ability, exerting yourself while doing so, cannot feasibly restore my stamina within the logic of the game world.
The other change, coming with Summerset, that saw a shift to damaging light attacks and merely restoring heavy attacks seemed equally unintuitive, but was a response to the reality of the game at the time. Nobody at the top wanted to use heavy attack rotations anymore, because the sluggish feel did not make them very enjoyable. Relegating them to a utility might have made many people content, but it remains unintuitive and diminishes the playstyle diversity of the game. Regardless, we shouldn't repeat the mistakes of Morrowind that required the Summerset changes in the first place, that is, making heavy attacks a necessity.


Does It Work?

We believe these changes will broaden the usage of Light, Medium and Heavy attacks for all players. In this new dynamic, Heavy attack builds will be more viable, giving low APM players opportunities to compete in both PVE and PVP.

It is rather difficult to envision who besides top-end players are still going to use light attacks in this environment. To the new or inexperienced player, they now feel entirely ineffectual, dealing significantly less damage than most overland enemies' basic attack. While I've asked for a more challenging questing experience, I don't think this it, and will only serve to discourage newcomers.
Medium attacks, granted, might no longer be the disaster they used to be. But it is unlikely they will be used deliberately instead of an instant light attack, or the full benefit of a fully charged heavy attack. Which, admittedly, is fine - we struggle right now finding a use for heavies.
Heavy attacks are more damaging now, which might help low-APM players that can't or don't want to use a lot of skills. But their exceedingly long charge up time still makes them unenjoyable to use, which means they won't engage many newcomers either. This change mainly seems to serve low-APM players already highly engaged with the game, and even they deserve better. At the top end, people will (begrudgingly) use them if they yield the best DPS - but as said above, that would be repeating the mistakes of Morrowind.

High APM play is still rewarded as the absolute highest DPS and requires a mix of both Light and Heavy attacks, interacting with Off-Balance as optimally as possible.

That's the rub: People don't want to have to mix light and heavy attacks. Most are happy with fast-paced light attack rotations and don't want to stop and slow down. Others have trouble weaving and don't really want to rely on either. Inexperienced players want their attacks to feel effective without having to memorize tight combos. And freaks like me are longing for viable heavy-attack playstyles that don't overshadow others.

Another concern is that putting resource gain on light attacks (which, of course, is not any more intuitive than heavy attacks restoring resources) gives the dominant light attack rotations even more sustain than they have now, which disadvantages sustain races like Bosmer, Redguard, Breton and even Khajiit further. Why should I chose Bosmer for 258 Stamina Recovery when I can gain more with a simple light attack?
There is also not a lot of room left where people could forego sustain bonuses they currently use for damage ones by using light attack rotations, e.g. replacing recovery glyphs with damage ones. Because they already do that and sustain (mostly) fine with potions, passives, active skills like Spell Symmetry, synergies, various group support, etc. There are some trade-offs that can still be made for certain builds, e.g. changing buff food, but in the end those will mostly benefit top end players that can weave perfectly.

Overall, where can these changes actually close the skill gap?
Low APM players that use heavy attacks see a slight boost, while those predominantly using light attacks see a heavy nerf.
Those mostly relying on skills are largely unaffected.
Middle class players that weave imperfectly will be closer to top end players, but both will see less DPS overall. And it's also not clear the gap will be lowered significantly, due to the much higher sustain for perfect-weaving top end players.

So we raised the floor for a very narrow subsection of players, lowered it for another, and lowered the ceiling for everyone. I don't think we can call this mission accomplished.

csbeau1969

" Tanks and healers now Need more APM if they want to Keep up Sustain from live because they will have to do Minimum 4 consecutive light attacks to reach the resource restore from a 0.8 seconds cast time heavy attack on Sword and Shield for a tank. Situation is similar for a healer.

The more you heavy attack the less class abilities (or abilities in General) you use. "
--
Reasonable observation, assuming that the tank or healer is trying to do more DPS. However, if taunting and healing the reason for a higher APM may be more light attacks per taunt or heal; however this will be build dependent. A tank or healer's need for HA would be interesting to explore in end-game content. For DPS, I think you are probably correct; depending on the build and % of DPS from abilities vs. LA today (which in the future would be HA - assuming they made a change.)

I should clarify that my comments are primary PvE focused, not PvP.

Note: My main (since the beginning of ESO, even back to Arena and Daggerfall) has always been a tank, and sometimes a healer. I do enjoy end-game content including vet trials.

csbeau1969

[/quote]
But xynode said so, so it must be true........ [/quote]

Nice, obviously you did not watch the video; xynode did not say what I wrote. He simply did an objective comparison between PTS and Live to show that there is not a significant difference in build result.

Xynode may not agree with my observation on the broader impact, beyond just DPS. I don't know him, and have not asked.

SirLeeMinion

After watching Xynode's video and running a few dungeons on the PTS myself, I have to ask:

Is there really any decrease in the required APM?

I just don't see it. It doesn't feel like I have to do less button mashing or canceling or weaving. Granted, I was running dungeons solo, but when resources were down, I was clicking like mad trying to get the bar to move. The increased mobility during heavy attacks felt good, but what a bunch of extra movement I had to do to target the off-balance guy, mob or boss, without some other mob breaking line of sight or my attack going off at 90 degrees. In truth, it just felt like this added another mini-game to combat, nerfed my DPS a bit, and required just as many APM.

One other observation about the video and in general: due to the larger resource return on PTS, I suspect the DPS nerf in a dungeon scenario or 3M / 6M dummy is lower than it is in a trial or on a trials dummy.

Sanguinor2

csbeau1969 wrote: »

Reasonable observation, assuming that the tank or healer is trying to do more DPS. However, if taunting and healing the reason for a higher APM may be more light attacks per taunt or heal; however this will be build dependent. A tank or healer's need for HA would be interesting to explore in end-game content. For DPS, I think you are probably correct; depending on the build and % of DPS from abilities vs. LA today (which in the future would be HA - assuming they made a change.)

I should clarify that my comments are primary PvE focused, not PvP.

Note: My main (since the beginning of ESO, even back to Arena and Daggerfall) has always been a tank, and sometimes a healer. I do enjoy end-game content including vet trials.

Your tank part is wrong. Tanks could already light attack weave if they wanted more Damage on live, healers aswell. With the proposed changes they have to light attack weave if they want Sustain. They cant get a burst of resources from heavy attacks anymore if These changes go live.
A Sword and Shield heavy attack restores About 2.8k stam on live and takes 0.8 seconds. If you want to get the same Sustain with the proposed changes you have to either: heavy attack 5 times in heavy armor or light attack 4 times in a row.
Same for healers, a resto heavy restored around 4k mag I think, to get the same restore you have to light attack 5 times in a row or do 20!!! resto heavy attacks, reduced to 5 if you wear heavy armor and have a resto.

TheFM

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

csbeau1969 wrote: »

Reasonable observation, assuming that the tank or healer is trying to do more DPS. However, if taunting and healing the reason for a higher APM may be more light attacks per taunt or heal; however this will be build dependent. A tank or healer's need for HA would be interesting to explore in end-game content. For DPS, I think you are probably correct; depending on the build and % of DPS from abilities vs. LA today (which in the future would be HA - assuming they made a change.)

I should clarify that my comments are primary PvE focused, not PvP.

Note: My main (since the beginning of ESO, even back to Arena and Daggerfall) has always been a tank, and sometimes a healer. I do enjoy end-game content including vet trials.

Your tank part is wrong. Tanks could already light attack weave if they wanted more Damage on live, healers aswell. With the proposed changes they have to light attack weave if they want Sustain. They cant get a burst of resources from heavy attacks anymore if These changes go live.
A Sword and Shield heavy attack restores About 2.8k stam on live and takes 0.8 seconds. If you want to get the same Sustain with the proposed changes you have to either: heavy attack 5 times in heavy armor or light attack 4 times in a row.
Same for healers, a resto heavy restored around 4k mag I think, to get the same restore you have to light attack 5 times in a row or do 20!!! resto heavy attacks, reduced to 5 if you wear heavy armor and have a resto.

These changes actually help no one. They need to dumped in the bad idea box just like shield cast times. Zos' needs to realise they aren't perfect and make bad decisions sometimes too. And this isn't bashing, it's just something everyone had to do in life sometimes no one is perfect.

Vahrokh

haploeb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm not reading 8 pages. I just want to know how the heck anyone even knows what their, APM, is

It's actually pretty simple. You can do about 0.9 LA per second and about 1 "instant" ability per second. Do the math and you get the minimum APM to play well.

TheInfernalRage

What type of content did you test these changes in? Target Dummy

Approximately how long did you test these changes? 1 Hour

During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? Yes.

If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks? Horrible. All my builds on live are heavy attack builds because of its convenience. This one in PTS literally turned Heavy Attack into a useless piece of ...

Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver? Worse. Let me say that again. WORSE. HORRIBLE. COUNTER INTUITIVE.

When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you? I no longer track Off Balance since you nerfed it, so don't speak of it as if it matters.

How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers? Around nearing half-way in the 6M dummy. What were you guys thinking?

When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? I can reach 200+ APM if I have to, but my main problem in this game is network. Most of the time, my fingers move too fast that my internet coupled with your lousy ping cannot keep up. Thus, my reason to move to heavy attacking build.

Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? What the eff do you think? You buffed my heavy attacks but you made me finally ignore heavy attacking. Bravo. Congratulations.

Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM? NOPE. Ridiculous. You pour this pile of ---- on me and dare to ask me if I enjoy?

Lorkhan

Common, as our feedback matters. U gonna put this live anyway. Im here since beta, never saw feedback change ur plans. We gonna adapt as Always.

Lorkhan

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Caelc wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We know reading about these potential changes and ideas is a little overwhelming, but the entire point of having it on the PTS right now is to have you test and give feedback. The point of this thread is for us to gather feedback after you've tried it out - not to have discussions about it. If you'd like to discuss what's on the PTS, please do so here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517547

If discussions, non-constructive feedback or bashing continue in this thread, we're going to close it and only accept feedback in-game through /feedback on the PTS. This is your final warning. Thank you.

i think the problem is that you guys have a very long history of ignoring peoples feedback on pts so it causes people to be very frustrated and lash out like this.

If you listened and communicated better i don't think there would be this level of frustration. So, yes, people need to clean up their act but you guys need to do better to. It is a team effort.

That's fair, and is a big reason why we're having this off-cycle test. We've never done this before, but it's in an effort to get early feedback on something we're thinking about that may or may not even make it into the game. When we're normally on PTS, things are already close to final, but for something like this we have time to make adjustments. That's why we're stressing the importance of feedback here. We've been having internal playtests and feedback as well, so we're trying to collect it from all sources.

Oh right. Now you listen to feedback, so please fix nb cloak.

csbeau1969

" Your tank part is wrong. Tanks could already light attack weave if they wanted more Damage on live, healers aswell. With the proposed changes they have to light attack weave if they want Sustain. They cant get a burst of resources from heavy attacks anymore if These changes go live.

A Sword and Shield heavy attack restores About 2.8k stam on live and takes 0.8 seconds. If you want to get the same Sustain with the proposed changes you have to either: heavy attack 5 times in heavy armor or light attack 4 times in a row.
Same for healers, a resto heavy restored around 4k mag I think, to get the same restore you have to light attack 5 times in a row or do 20!!! resto heavy attacks, reduced to 5 if you wear heavy armor and have a resto."
--

If your point is that this may result in a higher APM (which ESO stated the goal is lower APM), then you may be right. However, abilities (especially tanks and healers) have a timer (just use ActionDurationTimer add-on as an example). If during that time, you add LA - that will keep your stamina/magicka up. The goal of a tank or healer (in group content) is not DPS; that is where the DPS only focus of so many of the 'whiners' on the forums is lost. The game needs to be balanced across all play styles and classes.

Opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone has one.

My opinion is that this is a good change and I hope that ESO continues to work on class identity and driving content back towards the RPG/MMO trifecta; tank, healer and dps - with all being equally needed. This is a step in the right direction.

Those who have gotten used to the current rotation will get used to this one as well.

BxBourne

It seems like ZOS wants to attract and keep new players and I definitely understand this and something should be done about that. That being said there should always be a skill gap, if its too wide now I believe it is mainly because of combat mechanics and the way you attain high dps. For example if iam a new player and I learn that i need to learn how to la/weave and do animation cancelling to attain high dps i will say ok let me learn what thats about only to learn that it doesnt always work as intended, which you find out after several hours of practicing on a dummy, the reason for this is because of the latency or lag and non responsiveness that happens. This immediately turns off a new player and frustrates them because they cant dps high enough and then to top it off most endgame guilds wont let you run with them unless you attain the high dps which creates more frustration. Most players dont feel the frustration is worth if for any game. A game should be fun and challenging and should require the most skill to complete the hardest content but the game has to work as intended and because light attack weaving and animation cancelling doesn't work as intended for many players they leave the game.

-I definitely agree that LA should not be doing 78% of your total damage thats crazy and it shouldn't be the main component to attain high dps especially since it doesn't always work as intended so i welcome a change here. Its like why have all these cool abilities for if they dont hit as hard as my light attacks.
- Animation cancelling and LA/weaving should be part of the game for those that want to use that play style but it shouldn't be the only play style to attain high dps. Heres an area where you guys can add more play styles and build diversity to attain high dps and still be competitive but each play style has to be challenging to master if you want to attain the high dps/performance. If you make it easy to do the hardest content in the game you will lose your most loyal players and eventually lose you new players too.
- Incorporate sets, potions, enchants, traits, race, CP etc. everything you can to add more build and play style diversity that will be challenging and rewarding and can still be competitive for end game I think is the best way to go.
- With this change I hope you can make more sets viable for endgame content, It gets boring wearing the same sets for most of your toons and everyone else wearing the same thing, it takes away from the build diversity and this game has a ton of sets but they rarely get used, i do agree the best unique sets should be in the hardest content and should provide the best dps, healing and tanking. I think many players will love to use their creativity and the many different sets with different strengths and weaknesses to create unique builds that can still compete in end game content or PVP. dont let all these sets go to waste allow players to be more creative in their builds and still competitive with what they created, it can be a very rewarding and enjoyable experience that iam sure will keep players playing. On the flip side all the time and effort you devs put into being creative with sets etc goes to waste because no one uses alot of the sets in the game.
- This change can also be a way to maybe add a new node in the CP tree and use some of the unused CP we have to create new viable play styles and builds for all content as long as it doesnt add to performance issues.

after all is said and done LA/weaving and animation cancelling should not be the be all end all in attaining high dps. More diversity and creativity to attain high dps is definitely welcomed here as long as it requires skill and is challenging and works without all the issues.

TheFM

BxBourne wrote: »

It seems like ZOS wants to attract and keep new players and I definitely understand this and something should be done about that. That being said there should always be a skill gap, if its too wide now I believe it is mainly because of combat mechanics and the way you attain high dps. For example if iam a new player and I learn that i need to learn how to la/weave and do animation cancelling to attain high dps i will say ok let me learn what thats about only to learn that it doesnt always work as intended, which you find out after several hours of practicing on a dummy, the reason for this is because of the latency or lag and non responsiveness that happens. This immediately turns off a new player and frustrates them because they cant dps high enough and then to top it off most endgame guilds wont let you run with them unless you attain the high dps which creates more frustration. Most players dont feel the frustration is worth if for any game. A game should be fun and challenging and should require the most skill to complete the hardest content but the game has to work as intended and because light attack weaving and animation cancelling doesn't work as intended for many players they leave the game.

-I definitely agree that LA should not be doing 78% of your total damage thats crazy and it shouldn't be the main component to attain high dps especially since it doesn't always work as intended so i welcome a change here. Its like why have all these cool abilities for if they dont hit as hard as my light attacks.
- Animation cancelling and LA/weaving should be part of the game for those that want to use that play style but it shouldn't be the only play style to attain high dps. Heres an area where you guys can add more play styles and build diversity to attain high dps and still be competitive but each play style has to be challenging to master if you want to attain the high dps/performance. If you make it easy to do the hardest content in the game you will lose your most loyal players and eventually lose you new players too.
- Incorporate sets, potions, enchants, traits, race, CP etc. everything you can to add more build and play style diversity that will be challenging and rewarding and can still be competitive for end game I think is the best way to go.
- With this change I hope you can make more sets viable for endgame content, It gets boring wearing the same sets for most of your toons and everyone else wearing the same thing, it takes away from the build diversity and this game has a ton of sets but they rarely get used, i do agree the best unique sets should be in the hardest content and should provide the best dps, healing and tanking. I think many players will love to use their creativity and the many different sets with different strengths and weaknesses to create unique builds that can still compete in end game content or PVP. dont let all these sets go to waste allow players to be more creative in their builds and still competitive with what they created, it can be a very rewarding and enjoyable experience that iam sure will keep players playing. On the flip side all the time and effort you devs put into being creative with sets etc goes to waste because no one uses alot of the sets in the game.
- This change can also be a way to maybe add a new node in the CP tree and use some of the unused CP we have to create new viable play styles and builds for all content as long as it doesnt add to performance issues.

after all is said and done LA/weaving and animation cancelling should not be the be all end all in attaining high dps. More diversity and creativity to attain high dps is definitely welcomed here as long as it requires skill and is challenging and works without all the issues.

Light attack is not by any means doing 78 percent of your damage. That is just the amount they want to nerf it by. If that is the amount of your damage you are doing simply for la, then you are playing very wrong.

Sanguinor2

csbeau1969 wrote: »

If you point is that this may result in a higher APM (which ESO stated the goal is lower APM), then you may be right. However, abilities (especially tanks and healers) have a timer (just use ActionDurationTimer add-on as an example). If during that time, you add LA - that will keep your stamina/magicka up. The goal of a tank or healer (in group content) is not DPS; that is where the DPS only focus of so many of the 'whiners' on the forums is lost. The game needs to be balanced across all play styles and classes.

Opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone has one.

My opinion is that this is a good change and I hope that ESO continues to work on class identity and driving content back towards the RPG/MMO trifecta; tank, healer and dps - with all being equally needed. This is a step in the right direction.

Those who have gotten used to the current rotation will get used to this one as well.

APM was one of my Points (and there is no "may" it will go up for sure in any Situation where a tank wants resources back), another Point was that there is many tanks or healers that started playing These roles because they dont want to light attack weave but with this changes they will have to.
No one here was saying that the Goal of a tank or a healer was dps, just that there was the Option for a tank or healer to do a bit more Damage if they wanted to.
As for class identity, Zos has been hard at work to Strip away class identity for years I doubt they will turn around anywhere in the near future and These changes dont have anything to do with it anyway (outside of bringing the nerfhammer onto dk heavy attacks).
And These changes wont Change anything About tank/heal/dps equally being needed either.

price101610

csbeau1969 wrote: »

Excellent overview and I fully agree with Xynode's assessment.

Link: https://youtu.be/5_LPM4zlJkc
--
The changes are logical and do not have a significant impact on a person's ability to achieve similar DPS. It should be noted that there are more then just DPS in the game; impact on tanks and healers must also be considered. Tanks and healers need to play strategically and watch the tide of the battle closely. The changes (reduced APM) does allow for a more strategic game play.

What I like most about the change is "class identity". By changing the sustain mechanism to light attacks and increasing heavy attack damage; it should have the side benefit of using more of our class abilities. Today, so much of our DPS comes from light attack weaving; that does not really drive class identity. Creating a mechanism where we use more abilities as we have more stamina or magicka; theoretically, that could lead to better class identity.

I think that all of the above are good directions for ESO to take; more strategic game play, more use of abilities and a chance for better class identity.

Thank you ZOS once again for sharing some potential direction on PTS. I hope you move forward with it.

csbeau

While I agree with the premise, unless there is a corresponding increase in average skill damage, how will this help lower tier dps and not decimate high tier dps? @T3hasiangod also did an analysis and I think his assessment was pretty spot on.

hashsnob

csbeau1969 wrote: »

" Your tank part is wrong. Tanks could already light attack weave if they wanted more Damage on live, healers aswell. With the proposed changes they have to light attack weave if they want Sustain. They cant get a burst of resources from heavy attacks anymore if These changes go live.

A Sword and Shield heavy attack restores About 2.8k stam on live and takes 0.8 seconds. If you want to get the same Sustain with the proposed changes you have to either: heavy attack 5 times in heavy armor or light attack 4 times in a row.
Same for healers, a resto heavy restored around 4k mag I think, to get the same restore you have to light attack 5 times in a row or do 20!!! resto heavy attacks, reduced to 5 if you wear heavy armor and have a resto."
--

If your point is that this may result in a higher APM (which ESO stated the goal is lower APM), then you may be right. However, abilities (especially tanks and healers) have a timer (just use ActionDurationTimer add-on as an example). If during that time, you add LA - that will keep your stamina/magicka up. The goal of a tank or healer (in group content) is not DPS; that is where the DPS only focus of so many of the 'whiners' on the forums is lost. The game needs to be balanced across all play styles and classes.

Opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone has one.

My opinion is that this is a good change and I hope that ESO continues to work on class identity and driving content back towards the RPG/MMO trifecta; tank, healer and dps - with all being equally needed. This is a step in the right direction.

Those who have gotten used to the current rotation will get used to this one as well.

All I see is low apm/low dps players who don't truly understand the game, embracing these changes because they think its the hail mary that is going to finally make them relevant, and good players who do understand the game realizing how truly bad this move is for EVERYONE. There's better ways to close the skill gap, this isn't it. Stop jumping on board with this bad idea because you think it's going to help you. If anything these moves are going to cause further scrutiny against lower dps players. If everyone's dps takes a hit, its going to become even more important to have only the highest hitting people on your team, as there will be less total damage output available to clear content. No more having enough dps to carry people.

Aelorin

What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)

-Target dummy, overland, overland boss, veteran maelstrom arena. Could not find people to PvP.

If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?

- DD magro, magden, magsorc.
- I have a DD magcro, magsorc for PvE and a warden healer.

Approximately how long did you test these changes?

- 6 hours

During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?

- The increased damage from the heavy attack i did notice. The resource return from the light attack is not obvious. Also light attacking 3 times in a row for increased regen seemed not like a lot of fun, it was also not as noticable as on live with the heavy attack.

Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?

- I feel mixed about it. As said above. The increased damage for heavy attack is noticable and fun. I do miss resource return form a heavy attack. Light attacking felt sub-par now. Low damage, low resource return.

When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?

I did read about it, so I knew what to expect. I can clearly see increased resource return on light and increased damage on heavy attack. However, this was on a target dummy. In real combat there is so much going on, that looking out for off balance for increase efficiency feels like a tedious mini game. Also with my magnecro - because of a hard rotation with timers - it is really hard to get this into your rotation.

How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?

- With the same character and slightly better gear (DPS wise, because all right traits and golden) than on the live server, I could sustain better, but my DPS decreased with about 5k.

When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses).

- I can do about 30k DPS on live. I try to light attack weave but am not a pro at it. I guess I fall in the medium category.

Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?
- I do feel penalized with the new rules. Even when I increase my DPS (lower regen on jewerly and more spell power), my DPS still stays about 3k lower then on live server.
- I would love to get better at weaving. I just started trials and would really love to do vet trials.
- I do not think that this new rule will change anything: The high APM players will be able to sustain better, so they can change all jewelry to DPS, and also blue food with increased stats. They will still do 70k DPS or more on live, while I will fall below 30k DPS. If I change all my jewelry to DPS and blue food, I am not able to sustain, so I loose even more DPS. High APM players will allways have an advantage as long as weaving is possible in the game. Maybe if I try harde I could get better, but right now I am happy where I am. For me there is no change needed in this part of combat.

Kolzki

Here are some dps numbers for my pts mag sorc lightning heavy attack build on the 21 mil dummy. I tested using Zaan, MS and the each of following sets on the front bar:

• Perfected Siroria: 73k dps
• Infallible Aether: 71k dps
• Perfected False God: 70k dps
• Necropotence: 69k dps
• Undaunted Infiltrator: 69k
• Elegance* (see below): 68k dps
• New Moon Acolyte: 68k dps

For reference this build and rotation pulls 68 k dps using Infallible Aether on live compared to 71k dps on the pts. The rotaiton has two lighting heavy attacks on front bar. Damge from the heavy attack channel is almost identical at 11k dps. The final tick, shock pulse is buffed from just over 5k dps to nearly 9 k dps.

The heavy attack buff sets did better than I expected considering that Infallible Aether and Undaunted Infiltrator both give additive rather than multiplicative damage on their 5 piece bonuses (not to mention UI's useless weapon crit bonus). Infallible Aether pulls ahead of the other heavy attack buff sets on this build, as it does on live.

The Elegance tool tip on pts is the same as on live with a 20% light/heavy attack buff. It doesn't appear to be the revised version in the pts patch notes. With the base damage increase to heavy attacks it is still the worst of the heavy attack buff sets here.

TLDR: the pts changes buff the dps of this lightning HA sorc build by about 3 k dps.

rioichi4

What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
Various target dummies

Approximately how long did you test these changes?
4 hours

During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?
Yes I did! Wow is resource management easier. My main stam dps is built for high resouces and I never dropped below 90% stamina on him. If this goes live, I'll be able to gear more for damage. Also on my mag toons that I have trouble managing resources on, I had much less trouble. Yes!

Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?
I think it feels better, I'll just need to adjust to it.

When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?
I just did my normal rotation.

How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?
See above!

When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?
I play about 130-150 apm doing my normal rotation. And honestly, I've had to intentionally slow that down because my attacks were not registering if I went faster. On live, I definitely feel like this is the main reason I can't hit super high dps numbers. Me or my pc or my internet or something along those lines just cannot handle it. Hopefully this new paradigm will make getting those numbers easier.


Other:
I think this is a great change if it means more people are able to do more damage easier. The ONLY complaint I personally have is Werewolf builds. They are super light attack focused. This change would basically make werewolves not viable at all. But perhaps some changes can be made there, specifically to werewolves?
I tested my WW against the 6m target dummies. On live, I got about 28k dps. On the PTS, I got about 14k. If I only did heavy attacks instead of light attacks on the PTS, it went down to 13k DPS.
SO yeah, would love to see something different for werewolves, but overall, I approve of this idea.

DuckInRealLife

What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?

I used a target dummy because I have no friends. I mainly play Healer and Stam DPS

Approximately how long did you test these changes?

Maybe 30 minutes

During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?

I'm happy yet sad about this change. All this clicking hurts my wrist.
As a DPS, its great cause I'm more in the action and don't have to stop to wind up a heavy attack.
As a healer Heavy attacks is how I fill my time to restore resources. Sucks that I now have to do more clicking for it

Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?

It doesnt really feel any different.I still feel like light attacks didnt really restore a noticeable difference


How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?

Regaining resources through auto attacks somewhat left it took longer to do as it was multiple upon multiple to get anywhere noticable in regeneration. I even put 16 more champion points into light attack regen.

I'm from australia play with around 240-300ms.
When I test these things I run out of stamina mostly because of desync the timer for an ability goes off, but its not visually there so I have to check.

csbeau1969

"All I see is low apm/low dps players who don't truly understand the game, embracing these changes because they think its the hail mary that is going to finally make them relevant, and good players who do understand the game realizing how truly bad this move is for EVERYONE. There's better ways to close the skill gap, this isn't it. Stop jumping on board with this bad idea because you think it's going to help you. If anything these moves are going to cause further scrutiny against lower dps players. If everyone's dps takes a hit, its going to become even more important to have only the highest hitting people on your team, as there will be less total damage output available to clear content. No more having enough dps to carry people."
--
Not sure why everyone assumes that because someone agrees with ZOS when they are trying to help newer or less experienced players, it is 'assumed' that person is a low apm/low dps player.

For reference, I solo (vet and normal) dungeons because I enjoy the challenge, and unlike some others who did not like Craglorn because it is "too challenging"; I really enjoy it. I also enjoy PUG vet content and trials; I would rather help others than pretend to be an elitist. I also have a day job and a life; so my time online is limited.

So my views are not formed because I am somehow not as talented as 'you'. Simply that I understand business and what ZOS is trying to accomplish. To keep income flowing and the game advancing, they need to find the balance between the hardcore (or those that think they are anyway) and new players. They must also keep it "fresh" for experienced players. I believe that they are doing better than their competitors at the moment. They cannot get complacent.

Is there a better solution than they are proposing? Yes, I am certain that there is. Is this a step in the right direction; yes. Why? Because it is more logical. A heavy attack should be for damage, not resources. A light attack (like a jab) is more intuitive to do less damage and restore resources. As has been seen in multiple videos now, the net result of PTS and Live is the ability to have the same result; but experienced (some of which may be complacent) players may have to make some minor adjustments; not unreasonable for those who are already the "best" at the game.

Unknown_Redemption

Thank you for considering the proposed combat changes. I too agree there should be a smaller reward for mastering APM. Esp. with the introduction of group-wide DPS logs.

I have always felt that Light Attacks were meant for utility (e.g Pulling) and adding sustain is a great way to encourage weaving. Also, I like how Light Attacks are adding a slow trickle of resources back and is meshing nicely with the goal to open up diversity.

Removing the massive amount of damage from a LA makes sense... However, I also believe in things remaining consistent. If a LA does a little bit of damage and gives a little bit of resources, then a Heavy Attacks should do a lot of damage and still give back a chunk of resources. A few simple tweaks to your damage/time ratios and HA would be in a great spot. This will preserve current HA play-styles while also encouraging additional diversity.

Animation cancel/weaving cant be fixed, but you guys are definitely moving in the right direction!

Although its not on this PTS cycle, I hope you reconsider how Bashing is being used on Live; this should only be a utility action. Maybe lower/remove the passive damage and move it to become a perk if the target is interrupted.

Lord_Eomer

Going away from faster mouse clikcing meta is a good decision,

I may come back play eso if these changes going to live server.

Cinbri

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Light and Heavy attack changes currently on the PTS. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, please answer the following questions and let us know what you think.

While we prefer you utilize /feedback in-game and will be prioritizing those reports, you’re welcome to also post in this thread if you’d prefer. Please keep all other discussion surrounding these changes to this other thread; we want to focus this thread on the questions being asked. Thank you!

1. What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
   • If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?
2. Approximately how long did you test these changes?
3. During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?
4. Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?
5. When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?
6. How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?
7. When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?

1. PvP, Dueling.
2. 20-30min.
3. Yes. It feels that heavy attacks no longer neede for high apm style, which is good. Medium attacks dont proc stun is also good.
4. Better, hoever it possible to build for rudiculosly high heavy-attack damage with no drawbacks (lightning staff in particularly).
5. Only light attacks as amplifier for amount of restored resources is rudiculosly high.
6. Its much harder to get out of resources on magicka character.
7. High apm. Feels punished to play with channels that 1.0sec or longer.