PTS Combat Test - Feedback Thread

priforce · March 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Light and Heavy attack changes currently on the PTS. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, please answer the following questions and let us know what you think.

While we prefer you utilize /feedback in-game and will be prioritizing those reports, you’re welcome to also post in this thread if you’d prefer. Please keep all other discussion surrounding these changes to this other thread; we want to focus this thread on the questions being asked. Thank you!
What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?

Approximately how long did you test these changes?

During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?

Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?

When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?

How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?

When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?

Since I am on PS4, I can't test these changes, but I can predict how it affects fellow healers and I hope that feedback from healers is also taken into account:

DPS may makeup the majority of players in the game, but as someone with fifteen healers who does not play dps, the changes that are described that shifts players to use light attacks to restore resources doesn't take us in mind.⁣
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Similar to the proposed changes to energy orbs (that thankfully were modified before launch), forcing healers to use light attacks disrupts our game play as light attacks can miss, and as healers we can't afford to miss.⁣
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This also is an upheaval to how many of our sets work. What is going to happen to Draugrs Rest or Infallible Ether or Wisdom of Vanus? Or the lotus skill for Wardens? ⁣
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Too often the combat changes in the game are from a dps perspective rather than a healers or a tanks. All the major streamers are healers and recommend outdated or undertooled builds - all from a dps perspective.⁣
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As the main boss in Cloudrest jumps from side of the field to another, healers will be expected to light attack from side to side along the way? Perhaps find "adds" to light attack to restore resources, focus on not missing them, while being aware of everyone's health bars? Does that sound fun?⁣
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Final Fantasy made dramatic changes to healing in their Shadowbringers update that made healing less fun for the player base that the general population stopped playing as healers. Healing has become much more of a chore than an intuitive, engaging experience for those that aren't interested in dps.⁣
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If the same happens with this game, then healers are going to be forced to apply more dps, and who can dps more than dps? This will make Group Finder even more of a roulette than it is now because being a healer, if these changes move forward, I predict, will be less enjoyable.⁣
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Should healers wait around for these mistakes to be realized be developers after a year of player feedback?

joaaocaampos · March 2020

Damage versus Resources, WHY?

Why don't both Light & Heavy Attacks do damage and restore resources? This would be good for players with high and low APM!

All Light, Medium, and Heavy Attacks now scale with your highest offensive stats.
Light Attacks deal low damage.
Medium Attacks deal medium damage.
Heavy Attacks deal high damage.
All weapon-based Light Attacks will restore 100 Stamina or Magicka per hit, depending on their type.
All weapon-based Medium Attacks will restore 150 Stamina or Magicka per hit, depending on their type.
All weapon-based Heavy Attacks will restore 200 Stamina or Magicka per hit, depending on their type.
Werewolf Light Attacks restore 125 Stamina at base.
Werewolf Heavy restore 250 Stamina at base.
Using Light Attacks in quick succession increases the resources restored by its base value, up to a maximum of 3 times. This means normal weapons' Light Attacks restore up to 1000, while Werewolf restores up to 1250.
Empower: This buff type now increases the damage of your next Light Attack by 1250 and fully-charged Heavy Attack by 2500.
Etc.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam

CyberSkooma · March 2020

[REDACTED]
Decided it's not even a good idea to engage this conversation. I don't like it. That's all I'll leave here.

Elwendryll · March 2020

What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
Target Dummy
Approximately how long did you test these changes?
2 to 3 hours
During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?
Two Handed heavy attacks are now doing more than spammable abilities when empowered (Battleaxe compared to Wrecking Blow). The resource return of light attacks is very high, it allowed me to add a lot of bashes into my rotation.
Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?
The concept sounds good, but in practice, heavy attacks are still too slow to be worth using instead of light attacks, to the point that I still get best results only weaving light attacks. It means that I'm experiencing a raw dps loss.
When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?
I tried to use heavy attacks during the off-balance windows, the damage increase was still not enough to justify using any heavy attack. On the other hand, the resource return from light attack was very noticeable. I think the off-balance effect needs a better telegraph, I don't think I could reliably exploit it in real situations without a buff tracker.
How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?
I never ran out of resource. Recuperating resource felt better than on the live servers, but it was too much, to the point I could use more bashes in my rotation.
When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?
According to Esologs Cast Per Minute count, I have rougly around 100 cast per minute in combat on average (ranges from 80 to 120 depending on content), this does not include the movement. So probably leaning toward High APM count if accounting for every movement. I do feel really penalized by the new paradigm, it requires me to add more actions (bash) to make up for a part of the damage loss. Higher APM count for worse results. I enjoy playing with my current APM count, I enjoy it less on the PTS right now, it feels frustrating as I lost about 16% of my damage while executing an harder rotation I'm still not comfortable with.

Jarrods32 · March 2020

quote="code65536;d-517845"]Note: This a repost of post #222 of the official discussion thread.

I want to start off by saying that I am in complete 100% agreement with the "mission statement" of these PTS changes. Specifically, the following paragraph:

There are, however, several drawbacks to this model as well. First, it tends to reward players for pushing buttons as quickly and efficiently as possible. Players with high Actions Per Minute (APM) significantly outperform those with low APM, as they have better up-time of abilities, higher mitigation, much higher DPS, and can simply move around the battlefield better in both PVE and PVP. While we believe it’s good to have a skill gap that promotes mastery, we also believe the gap as it currently exists is too wide, and that many players aren’t finding satisfaction in the climb. Additionally, we believe the over-reliance on a specific mechanic (light attack weaving) leaves less room for playstyle diversity, including lower-APM options. This is particularly evident in veteran content and PvP. Finally, the concept of using light attacks for damage and heavy attacks for restore is, quite simply, unintuitive – especially for less experienced players.

I agree with all of this, and I agree that something needs to be done, and I applaud ZOS for taking action. But I strongly dislike the solution that is being tried out here.

I consider that the two overall goals here are:

Reducing the effect of the skill gap. To be clear, it is good to have a skill gap. The amount by which that skill gap translates into power is the thing that needs some adjustment.
Making light and heavy attacks more intuitive.

PART 1: ADDRESSING THE POWER GAP

First, as a broad generalization, I like to think about players being put into three categories.

Players who mostly use their basic weapon attacks. The so-called "light-attack spammers" or "heavy-attack spammers".
- Keep in mind that in most games, your basic weapon attacks--e.g., pointing and shooting your gun--is the primary way you do damage and that abilities are things that you cast every now and then to augment that damage or for utility. In ESO, abilities make up most of your damage and basic weapon attacks augment that damage, which can be counter-intuitive for someone who's used to, say, shooters, but is new to ESO, so it's perfectly understandable to see a new player just doing "light-attack spam" because that's kinda natural, if you think about it.
Players who use abilities and try to weave them, but aren't very good at it. This might be due to a lack of practice. Or, in many cases, people simply aren't able to; e.g., for older players, it can even be a little physically painful. When we look at people's DPS parses, the first thing we look at is their LA/s rate. And if it's something like 0.5, we'd say, "You need to light-attack more"; i.e., get better at weaving. I myself am only around 0.7 LA/s. I can't hit the 0.8 or 0.9+ LA/s that elite players can get, and I probably will never get there; I have my limits.
Elite players who have very high APM, whose rotations are fast and fluid and who don't miss their LA-weaves.

So how do the proposed changes affect each of these skill tiers?

Based on my testing on the PTS, someone who just spams heavy attacks will get a modest boost to their damage. Heavy attack damage has been increased by a modest amount, and the cast times have been reduced a little. The end result, based on some quick casual testing on the PTS is a small increase in the ballpark of around 10-20%. For someone spamming light attacks, well, it's not pretty. The fight duration tripled, so the DPS was cut by around 2/3 (less than the 78% nominal nerf because of damage from things like weapon enchantments).

I don't think that these changes help the proverbial "floor". On Live, both heavy-attack spam and light-attack spam does similar amounts of overall DPS. On the PTS, heavy-attack spam was mildly buffed, while light-attack spam was thrown into the gutter. I don't see how this helps the "floor". At all. If anything, I would argue that these changes hurt them more than it helps them, as it strips away combat options and forces these kinds of players into using only heavy attacks.

But what about the "middle class"? What about the people who try to weave abilities, but aren't able to do so that well? The amount of resource return from light attacks is immense. Without the CP buff, it's equivalent to about 400 regen for someone who weaves perfectly. Obviously, it's more once you figure in Tenacity. So while missing light attacks won't result in as much of a direct loss of damage, it still represents a significant indirect loss of damage because that sustain can be translated into damage. Choosing bi-stat food over regen food. Picking a "damage" race like Orc instead of a "sustain" race like Redguard. Using a "damage" set like New Moon Acolyte instead of a "sustain" set like Vicious Ophidian. But these kinds of shifts away from other sources of sustain will be available only to people who can weave well.

For the "upper class", yes, it's an outright nerf to power. That can be somewhat compensated for by shifting their builds further away from sustain.

But what does this do for the power gap between the "middle class" and the "upper class". Both groups will be hit hard by this, and it's not clear that they will be affected in a way that reduces the relative power gap.

And so I would like to take a moment now to talk about the Morrowind combat changes. Back when those changes were made, @ZOS_RichLambert said on ESO Live that they had two goals with the Morrowind combat changes. First, they wanted people to think about sustain again. And second, they wanted to reduce the power gap. Well, these changes seem to fly in the face of the notion that sustain should be relevant. But more importantly, the Morrowind combat changes increased the power gap between players. Yes, the sustain nerfs hit the power of the "upper class" hard. But it also hit the "middle class" even more. If you think about it, when resources are tight, then players who are more efficient at resource usage will have an advantage. Instead of using a dynamic rotation, are you using an easy static rotation that results in a couple of DoTs being recast a little early? That's wasted resources. Did you accidentally step into red and thus need to cast a self-heal to compensate for your mistake? That's wasted resources. Did you miss a light attack and thus miss out on its resource-free damage? That's less damage per resource spent.

Can you say, without any doubt, that these light/heavy attack changes will hurt the "upper class" more than it hurts the "middle class"? If not, then you're not actually closing the power gap, and this will be a repeat of the Morrowind fiasco.

But hey there's more to this game than just DPS! What about something like PvE tanking? A lot of tanking is about resource management. Wouldn't it be great if, as a tank, you could get stamina as you light-weave everything? It would trivialize resource management! Hooray! But oh wait, that means you have to drop block to weave every ability instead of block-casting, and if you're a new tank or even an experienced tank who's tanking new unfamiliar content, that's pretty darn risky. So what this means is that experienced tanks can get easy resource management, but beginner tanks who are told, "when it doubt, hold block" can't reap the benefits of this. And of course, if a tank needs an emergency injection of stamina, the old option of getting a burst of about 2.8K stamina from a single 0.8s heavy attack channel is gone. All of this simply punishes less experienced players and dramatically increase the effects of the skill gap.

PART 2: LIGHT/HEAVY ATTACKS SHOULD BE INTUITIVE

You're right: Heavy attacks restoring resources, while light attacks do not, is not intuitive. But... How on earth is the opposite intuitive?! A new player is going to be just as confused about light-attacks restoring resources as they are with the current arrangement on Live.

So what would be intuitive?

Simple: Stop treating light and heavy attacks differently!

Both light and heavy attacks should restore resources. A light attack should restore a very small, token amount (50?). And heavy attacks should restore the same amount as they do now. And medium attacks should restore somewhere between the two, scaled with the duration of the channel.

That's how you make intuitive mechanics. A heavy attack should just be a heavier, stronger light attack. Period. Don't have some silly nonsense where a light attack restores resources, but if a players holds onto the button for just a fraction of a second too long and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing. Don't have some silly nonsense where if someone is charging a heavy attack because they are out of resources, but if they let go of that attack just a fraction of a second too soon and it turns into a medium attack, then they get nothing.

Light attacks should do a modest amount of damage and return a small amount of resources. And heavy attacks should do the same, except more: more damage, more resource return. And medium attacks should scale between the two and do a medium amount of damage and return a medium amount of resources. This is the logical, straightfoward thing to do, and it bewilders me that it doesn't work like this.

A heavy attack is slow and requires a channel, so it should be more rewarding in all aspects. How does "hey, you do more damage as a tradeoff for this annoying channel, but oh no, you don't get any resources back" make any sense?

PART 3: WHAT I WOULD DO IF I WAS A COMBAT DESIGNER

Reduce light attack damage. Not by 78%. But by something more modest. 30%?
Increase the damage on consecutive (non-weaved) light/medium/heavy attacks.
All light attacks restore resources. Something small like 50. (So for someone weaving perfectly, this would be a modest 100 regen.)
Keep the current Live levels of heavy attack resource return.
Medium attack damage and resource return will be somewhere between that of a light attack and heavy attack, scaling with the duration of the channel.
Make Empower affect all basic weapon attacks: light/medium/heavy.
Edited to add: Increase the damage of spammable abilities by an amount comparable to the reduction to light attack damage. This would maintain the current power level for people who weave successfully (thus effectively shifting damage from the basic attack to the ability), while increasing the power level for those who miss weaves (they would still do less damage, but the gap would be smaller).

If you look at the current lower-APM options--what people hawk as "easy" builds--they're often light-attack-spam (werewolf) or heavy-attack-spam builds. Let's reinforce these options and make them more effective. That's why I propose increasing the damage from consecutive, non-weaved attacks. Of course, these things should not be too effective that they outclass "high-APM" options (we still want a skill gap!), but they should be more effective than they are now (thus lowering the effect of the skill gap). The increase for non-weaved attacks should more than compensate for the 30% nerf to light attack damage that I am proposing.

As for the "middle class" vs. "upper class", an outright nerf to light attack damage (without adding some secondary effect like a ridiculous 400 regen to perfect weavers) will slightly narrow the gap between the two because it will affect those with higher LA/s more than those with lower LA/s.

And finally, on the consistency/intuitiveness front, it makes no sense to apply a resource return to light attacks but not heavy attacks, just as it makes no sense to do the opposite. What makes sense, though, is for a heavy attack to just be a stronger light attack in every way--in both damage and resource return--as compensation for it being a slow channel.

Ultimately, the end result should be...

A raising of the bottom floor, in which people who just spam basic attacks are better off than they are on Live. A buff to consecutive, non-weaved damage will help with this (and should more than compensate for the LA damage nerf) and reinforce the current popular low-APM options. ZOS's proposal doesn't help the floor at all, since a severe nerf to LA damage with no compensation simply serves to deprive the "lower class" of combat options and forces them into only using heavy attacks.
A narrowing of the gap between the "middle" and "upper" classes. Reducing the damage of weaved light attacks is the key here. In contrast, ZOS's proposal just replaces the lost direct damage with indirect damage in the form of massive sustain.
A system where heavy attacks are more desirable, but not so desirable that people who prefer high APM feel compelled into sluggish heavy-attack rotations. While ZOS's current proposal doesn't quite push people into a HA-meta, it does come dangerously close with that insane 78% damage nerf to LAs.
Heavy and medium attacks should be rewarded for their cast times, which not only means more damage, but also more resource return. Be consistent.

[/quote]

This is a very good thread the devs should really take the time to read it

Gundug · March 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?

Approximately how long did you test these changes?

During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?

Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?

When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?

How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?

When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?

1: Soloed City of Ash group dungeon, vMA.
PVE DPS, all roles on live

2: 3 hours

3: I noticed light attacks restore resources. I am not big on heavy attacking except for resources on live, and did not notice any significant difference in damage on the PTS. To my mind, heavy attacks simply take way too long to wind up and execute to flow well in combat. If they were perhaps twice as quickly cycled and balanced accordingly, they could be more interesting.

4: The new light attack system works significantly better at maintaining sustain in solo situations. I was able to run blue health/stamina food and had no difficulty maintaining approximately 70% or more stamina throughout the dungeon. I tested the exact setup on live in the same dungeon, and stamina dropped to 60% or lower at times. With the same food in vMA (no sigils) on PTS, sustain felt better than live, especially in the final stage, as I had no difficulty maintaining a reserve of stamina, where I usually start to run on empty at the final execute phase. Heavy attacks seemed useless to me in solo play, as there is too much movement and mechanic avoidance to make them worth the risk. The reduced light attack damage was noticeable, but not so much of a loss as the increased sustain was a gain, particularly since I was able to run bi-stat food for better resource pools, rather than sustain food.

5: The only enemy I can consistently recognize as off-balance are various trash types that have interruptible or blockable attacks that result in them being stunned. Heavy attacks did seem to kill them faster than normal, but they die so quickly anyway, it's not meaningful. I was unable to determine when or if bosses were off-balance, and would not frequently heavy attack them anyway when solo, as that may open me to danger, and results in a DPS loss. I would like some sort of obvious effect to signify off-balance targets, and a noticeable DPS boost if they are used specifically for those situations, if this is going to be a significant mechanic in the game.

6: I ran out of resources a couple times in vMA when forced to block and dodge roll too many simultaneous threats. Due to not being practiced at simply rapid clicking light attack alone to gain resources, I did not take advantage of that effect in order to see how quickly I could recover. I heavy attacked for resources a couple times when low out of habit. I feel heavy attacks on live give a better feel for recovering a chunk when on empty, but weaving light attacks on PTS is much better in general for avoiding low resource situations. I will attempt to recover low resources simply through rapid light attacks alone in further testing. I did not have the time, but intend to run vMA on live again under the exact conditions as on PTS and compare sustain.

7: I play at medium-high to high actions per minute, due to doing many things while soloing. I like managing survival and damage buffs, resources, ultimates, potion cooldowns, as well as observing, anticipating and moving to deal with threats as they appear. Even when tanking for trials groups or dungeons, I keep very busy at all times, and consistently weave light attacks with skills. I was unable to, but would be very interested to see my tank sustain within the PTS. The only downside I experience in skill-heavy rotations with little pause is that they tend to cause intense hand pain over longer periods.

indigorune · March 2020

What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc) If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?
I tested on the 6mil and 3mil target dummies.
Approximately how long did you test these changes?
About an hour
During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?
Yes, it is noticeable. I did three tests on my main khajiit stamblade. The first, I tested the way I normally would, using lava foot food (stam + stam recovery) and weaving light attacks. I definitely didn't run out of stam, but I parsed about 9k less than I'm used to. The second, I experimented. I used pure stamina food, no regen and weaved light attacks...I actually ran out of stamina a couple of times close to the end. My parse was 10k less than I'm used to. Finally, I tested using lava foot food (Stam + stam recovery) and weaving heavy attacks. I did not run out of stam and I parsed about 9k less than I'm used to, so essentially the same as my first parse. But I had to drop the weaving altogether on my bow bar, as it slowed my rotation down way too much. I basically just cast my bow abilities then switched back to my main bar. It felt fine on the front bar, it was slowed down but dealing good damage. The problem was mainly that my rotation felt off. Like I couldn't get all my abilities in and like I was dropping dps because of it.
Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?
See above.
When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?
I didn't notice. I don't think I have a way to knock enemies off balance without attacking from stealth... Something I'm not doing in a parse.
How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?
See point 3.
When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?
I would say I'm at medium.. maybe the lower side of medium. I struggle with light attack weaving, mainly because I either go too fast, or I do skill>la instead of la>skill (bad habit I got into before fully understanding how weaving works). I definitely feel like the changes penalize me. I already don't parse amazingly (about 30k), but this brought me down too low to do anything outside of base game normal dungeons/trials. No good.

Artim_X · March 2020

1) What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)

3 million dummy, Imperfect world boss, and vMA.

2) If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?

DPS rotation and solo build for vMA.

3) Approximately how long did you test these changes?

About 3 hours.

4) During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?

Yes, as a player who likes to keep things simple with a heavy attack damage rotation the damage increase to heavy attacks was noticeable. Although at times I would forget to light attack in order to get back resources, but light attacks did restore resources.

5) Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?

To be honest it feels worse than live, but a change like this wouldn't completely kill my playstyle if I take the time to fiddle with it for a long period of time.

10) When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?

I still heavy attacked as per usual. I don't pay attention to the end result, since I just want things to die as fast as possible.

11) How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?

The second time I hit the 3 million dummy I forgot about adding light attacks into my rotation for sustain and a few times in vMA I started getting low when the pressure was on. Recuperating them felt worse, since I don't particularly like light attacking and as a channeled staff user I do not like my source of sustain to be dodgeable when I really need a top up.

12) When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?

I'd say around medium, since I'm always doing something with my character in PvE land (dodging, blocking, streaking, parsing, side stepping, etc.), but I don't animation cancel light attacks. I don't feel penalized, since I can still hit decent single target numbers on the PTS although I don't particularly like the nerf to Tri Focus, which is very noticeable for the way I play. I enjoy playing the game my way and would prefer for these changes to never make it to live.

JumpmanLane · March 2020

I main a MagDK, I'm Grade 2 Grand Overlord (and I got that title like 3 the hard way! dropping fools!). To answer question number 5: Flame Lash, Powerlash. Why would I consider a heavy attack when a target is off balance.

On live I run 2 Piece Kena , Succession, Bright Throats, RAT, the Apprentice on a Dumner DK. I'm hitting 20, 21k FLAME LASHES when they crit. Forget the Powerlashes.

For the test I ran 1 Domihaus 1 Balorgh, Succession Bright Throat's etc. The absolute LAST skill I'd consider using is a HEAVY attack against an off balanced opponent lol. And the fools i was dueling tried heavy in melee range, got bashed and ate a ton of whips. Opponents just didnt LAND many heavies at range they were blocked or dodged, in melee they were bashed or blocked and I'm a MAGICKA Dragonknight who could take great advantage on any one silly enough to go for a bunch of heavies in melee range.

my feedback: it's a silly change. No one in game is having sustain issues to the point light attacking for resources makes any sense. At least with a heavy you get some damage to go with the resources on live.

This idea won't help a noob in a 1v1 vs me. As a MagDK, I don't attack a players resources per se. I put damage on them. Their best bet is to put damage on me. Dickering about trying to land some heavies is not gonna go well for a noob.

JumpmanLane · March 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Caelc wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We know reading about these potential changes and ideas is a little overwhelming, but the entire point of having it on the PTS right now is to have you test and give feedback. The point of this thread is for us to gather feedback after you've tried it out - not to have discussions about it. If you'd like to discuss what's on the PTS, please do so here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/517547

If discussions, non-constructive feedback or bashing continue in this thread, we're going to close it and only accept feedback in-game through /feedback on the PTS. This is your final warning. Thank you.

i think the problem is that you guys have a very long history of ignoring peoples feedback on pts so it causes people to be very frustrated and lash out like this.

If you listened and communicated better i don't think there would be this level of frustration. So, yes, people need to clean up their act but you guys need to do better to. It is a team effort.

That's fair, and is a big reason why we're having this off-cycle test. We've never done this before, but it's in an effort to get early feedback on something we're thinking about that may or may not even make it into the game. When we're normally on PTS, things are already close to final, but for something like this we have time to make adjustments. That's why we're stressing the importance of feedback here. We've been having internal playtests and feedback as well, so we're trying to collect it from all sources.

As far as communication goes, can you tell us the reasoning behind this sudden concern for a skill gap? I can guess it but a statement would be nice. Further could you tell us what your internal play test feedback looks like. For or against. I mean you're testing it; so someone is for it. Who exactly is taking part in your internal testing? i mean what are their bona fides I mean could they beat someone like @Draconian-Being or @Joshlenoir in a 1v1? I mean I can't but still. In a 1vX lol? What's the measure of these testers.

These changes wouldn't even my odds against players of that caliber, much less close the gap in skill between a noob and players like that,

Lapin_Logic · March 2020

Instead of the 180 degree flip, meet in the middle with a slight bias toward Heavy attack for "burst" damage and "Burst" low resource return and Light attack for reasonable "sustained" damage output with Good "Sustained" resource return.

The All or Nothing approach kills Diversity in builds because 1 is always superior to the other.

It makes real world sense for a Heavy attack to be the beefy power house.
It makes sense for Light attacks to be something you throw out while you catch your breath.
It Doesn't make sense that a Light attack hits like a feather duster, critting a unarmored mob for 1600!
It Doesn't make sense that a throwing 3 Light attacks in the same 2 seconds you charges that heavy results in 4k damage VS the Heavy 22k!

Bring the heavy down and the light up to avoid "Heavy attack Gankers"
Give a portion of resorce return back to Heavy as that is players current muscle memory and it does not penalise players that are used to that playstyle.

1. Dungeon DPS Mag pet sorc
2. 2 hours
3. eventually I noticed the imperceptible resource return from lights but I really noticed it when I ran out while doing my usual heavy attack round up of mobs and died.
4. Light attacks feel unrewarding, Heavy attacks remove a Spammable attack from your rotation without returning any resource. Overland winding a heavy and then force pulse combo to nuke a mob is Noob friendly but not for dungeons.
5. Solo surrounded by mobs you are lucky to target the thing you are aiming at let alone proc off balance and then exploit with a LA
6. I felt sustain was slightly better with a LA rotation but once I ran out of resources felt powerless/lost for much longer and taking longer to get enough resources to heal or get back on rotation.
7. Medium/average, on Live I often feel like I am imputting faster than the server would like for fear of losing damage, frequently Light attacks or spammables get dropped even though i do my best to have a smooth steady rotation and monitor if the skill fires, Under the new rules I still would not drop the Light attack weaving because it is necessary for sustain

Shantu · March 2020

1. 6 mil target dummy.
2. Tested about 2 hours.
3. Yes, the increase in resource sustain was very noticeable with LA's. HA's damage increase, while notable, had very little impact on my rotation. I simply could not find a good way to integrate them effectively.
4. The new paradigm feels MUCH worse. I'm seeing a 20+% loss in DPS. I usually parse around 46k on a 6 mil. The best I could squeeze out now was around 36k. All the loss is attributed to the loss of LA damage...and that's even with a Magicka Templar using Solar Barrage (Empower) and a Maelstrom staff.
5. Honestly, I never even look for Off Balance, even on a target dummy, let alone in a trial when dealing with mechanics (and it's nearly impossible to spot anyway).
6. I did not run out of resources, but I never did in Live anyway. Sustain on live is manageable with a rare use of HA's. I don't see the point in returning resources via LA's.
7. I suppose I'm in the medium to high APM range. I've worked long and hard to perfect my rotation on several classes and run vet trials. While I'm no elitist, I'm no slouch either. I most definitely feel penalized by the huge cut in LA damage.

csbeau1969 · March 2020

ZOS
--
I have played the game from the start. This is seriously one of the best changes to date. Yes, there may be more intuitive ways to change the combat system but this is a step in the right direction.

The reason for most of the negative comments is simple, change; People hate change. The balance will need to be worked out but for both new players and old alike - keep running with it.

Unfortunately, it is rare that the casual players will test the PTS or give feedback. So you are mostly getting the "elite" players feedback, a small %. The goal should not be to cater to the vocal minority but instead create a game which brings in new players, while maintaining the dedicated player base. Why? - to maintain a flow of cash and to keep the game invested and growing.

You are on the right track.

Thank you!

csbeau

StrangusMaximus · March 2020

I've been playing for about for about 4 years and finally felt compelled to make a forum account to respond to these proposed changes. For context, my first year or two, I began the game as a "casual" player, essentially playing it as a single-player game through questing, fishing, etc. I since have ventured into endgame PvE and main a magblade, but occasionally mess around with stamsorc, stamblade, stamcro, magdk, and magplar. As someone who admittedly takes a long time to learn how to play a class and has to practice extensively to "get" it and someone who began the game purely for questing and was previously afraid to even participate in dungeons and trials, I feel I can speak well to both the casual and endgame experience. I haven't seen a lot of discussion about how this will affect nightblades specifically - perhaps I missed it - so I will try to speak to that in addition to my overall thoughts. I wrote a novel, so thanks in advance for reading!

1. What type of content did you test these changes in?
Target Dummy - Iron Atro 21m

2. Approximately how long did you test these changes?
About an hour and a half combined both magblade and stamsorc. I spent the majority of the time on magblade.

3. During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?
Yes, the change was obvious. For magblade, I pull about 84k dps on live, and pulled about 64k with a light attack rotation on PTS. The damage decrease is significant, particularly for one of the classes that benefits most from light attacks. I was able to sustain on a dark elf in max mag/health food without wearing False Gods or any other sustain sets.

However, a heavy attack rotation pulled around 62k, so it was still a minor loss from the light attack rotation. Heavy attacking on an inferno staff feels incredibly slow and unrewarding. Because merciless resolve can only be used on 5 procs, I needed to do a mixture of both light attacks and heavy attacks (2 HA 2 HA 1 LA) to time it properly, leading to fewer bow procs, and therefore lower dps. I had to eliminate class or skill spammables (ie. swallow soul) because with the heavy attacks, I did not have time to cast spammables before my other dots ran out (ie. unstable wall, twisting path). As someone who really enjoys using class skills and loves the current magblade rotation (or lack thereof), replacing a fun, unique spammable like swallow soul with a heavy attack was not a rewarding playstyle. Neither was the extremely awkward timing for merciless resolve.

My stamsorc experience was similar - stamsorc was my main character in Morrowind (when a heavy attack meta was introduced for PvE), so it felt like I was returning back to a similar rotation from 3 years ago which was, quite frankly, lackluster. Heavy attacks felt more intuitive with dual wield, but they felt extremely unnatural with 2h skills, which already feel "slow" in my opinion - particularly with channeled abilities such as wrecking blow (which hit about the same or slightly less than a heavy attack). The feeling of a heavy attack itself was still better than an inferno staff, but I found myself struggling with stamsorc's already few viable class abilities in their kit. With the bound armament change, it seemed pointless to even have it slotted, but I couldn't even think of a better option to include beyond simply stacking fighters guild abilities. Again, I would prefer the opportunity to use more class abilities, rather than spending my time channeling heavy attacks.

I do like that movement speed was increased while channeling heavy attacks. I also do like that heavy attacks deal more damage, but it's not enough to offset still running a light attack rotation.

4. Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?
I kind of addressed this in question 3 with the unnatural and sluggish feeling of heavy attacks on inferno staves and 2h skills. In short, it feels much worse.

It also necessitates the need to bash weave for maximum dps, which is something already that top end players do in live. I personally avoid it because it is unintuitive and my reflexes just aren't fast enough for it. The amount of time investment for me to get even mildly good at it isn't worth it. Right now, because I don't bash weave on live, I lose maybe 1-2k dps (magblade) depending on the fight. If these changes go live, I'm looking at losing probably close to 6k on stamina, which is significant. In live, bash weaving is not currently necessary for completing top content - I've completed every vet dungeon and trial HMs in the game and earned both GH and IR without any bash weaving whatsoever. With these changes though, bash weaving is going to absolutely become more necessary (while also still mixing light attack and heavy attack weaving), so rotations will actually become more complicated - not less, which is counterintuitive if the goal is to bridge the skill gap between endgame and casual players.

I'm also thinking back to how I started the game. Like many, Skyrim was my gateway into ESO, and I wanted to replicate my sneak archer build. For my first year or so, I exclusively light attacked on my bow and occasionally cast skills (yes, I was probably that person in your PUG dungeon. Sorry!). Light attacking to deal damage was incredibly intuitive to me, and I was lucky that it did enough damage for overworld and quest content so that I could get through it. If light attacks did as much damage as they do on the PTS, I could see many casual players struggling with that playstyle, when their main goal is just to complete a quest, not to do vet endgame content. I know I would have.

5. When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?
I don't have an addon to track Off Balance, so it was honestly quite difficult for me to tell if a target was or wasn't Off Balance. If the damage increased significantly, I probably would have noticed that something was happening, but I didn't notice anything significant with my damage during certain times when I was parsing.

I didn't adjust to it, since I didn't notice when it was happening. I can see this being particularly a problem for console players, who don't have addons to track those sorts of things. If the intention is to strategize around Off Balance, there needs to be an in-game method to make it extremely clear when it procs.

6. How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?
Resources were infinite. There is no reason to run any sustain sets (ie. False Gods), food, or races (Breton, Redguard). On stamsorc, which is a redguard, I had 80%+ stamina the entire parse running max health/stamina food and bashing. Why run a redguard? I don't need the extra sustain, and might as well switch to Orc. Orc is already a top stamina dps and with this change, their one drawback - the lack of sustain - is eliminated. There's no reason anyone would play anything else from a pure numbers standpoint. Same goes for High Elves over Bretons for magicka dps. All in all, racial diversity goes out the window, when so many positive changes were made in this direction not too long ago.

7. When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?
Probably high medium to high APM for me. I don't feel penalized - contrary to popular belief, a high-end playstyle isn't button mashing or clicking at hyper speed. In fact, if buttons are pressed too quickly, it can actually slow the rotation down because an ability isn't off GCD yet. It's about timing, and I enjoy the rewarding feeling of timing all of my attacks perfectly to achieve optimal dps, even though I don't bash-weave.

If anything, on live, since there are issues with skills not casting, my APM might artificially go up due to "mashing" the skill repeatedly to get it to go off.

Closing Thoughts:
If these changes do go through, they will only serve to widen the skill gap. Rotations will become more complicated as players juggle a mixture of light and heavy attacks at optimal times. Already challenging rotations - such as magblade - will become even more challenging due to the timing of dot placement and merciless resolve procs. There is already very little time in a magblade rotation to cast heavy attacks, and for other dot-intensive classes (ie. magden), I can see these changes being the final nail in the coffin for anyone seriously playing them, particularly since fun, rewarding class abilities won't be possible to use as spammables if a heavy attack rotation becomes meta. In general, no one wants to work twice as hard to play a class that can only hit half as hard as an easier class. I foresee these changes benefiting DKs, but I don't think the majority want another meta of DKs being the only "good" class option. Right now, particularly for magicka characters, there's a really good mix of viable class options, and it would be a shame to see that class diversity go away due to a change like this.

The heavy attack damage increase also does not make up for the light attack damage reduction. With the significant damage decrease, achievements such as Godslayer - which requires such an optimized, tightly timed group to attain - will be even more difficult to achieve. If making these top tier achievements difficult is the goal, that's fine - the end game community will adjust. But if the goal is to include more "casual" players in endgame content so they can earn achievements like these, the overall damage decrease will only hurt them - I would have never in a million years thought to bash weave and time heavy attacks during off balance when I was a casual player. I didn't even know what off balance was - it's not really explained in-game.

It would be more beneficial to explain in-game that heavy attacks replenish resources, what off-balance is and how to proc it, buff heavy attacks for players who might struggle more with resources, and reduce light attack damage by 30% (not 78%) to adjust for the power creep. The skill gap can be narrowed significantly by more effective in-game explanations, articles, and tutorials, not by completely turning the entire combat system upside down.

These changes would require casual players to learn how to light attack weave to replenish resources while also bash weaving, which is more difficult to do than the current system of channeling a heavy attack. People looking to get into the endgame are going to have a steeper cliff to climb to learn a more complex combat style. Plus, for the ultra casual players like previous me, who just wanted to quest and spam light attacks on their bow while wearing random pieces of gear, they are going to have a distinctly more difficult time defeating overland content because their light attacks will do 78% less damage. With the new Greymoor release, there are going to be an influx of players coming in from Skyrim, trying to sneak and snipe monsters on their bow because it's a fun, rewarding playstyle for questing and even many normal dungeons. They should be able to viably light attack on their bow for this content, as it's what makes up the majority of the game.

I don't seriously tank or heal, so I can't speak much to how these damages will affect them. However, I do believe that healing would require light attack weaving as well in order to sustain resources, so again, the skill gap is widened - there's already such a lack of supports already, and a change like this would disincentivize people even more from playing them. I'd obviously want to hear more from people who play supports and defer to their knowledge, but that is my initial impression.

Finally, while I understand that these changes may not go live and were posted for feedback, the timing and method for sharing was incredibly poor. People are already on edge across the globe and are spending more time at home playing video games, which is a form of escapism we all need right now. Seeing massive changes - even just potential ones - to their favorite game's comforting, familiar combat system can be extremely disheartening, particularly when these changes take away much of what makes this game so fun, unique, and rewarding.

StrangusMaximus · March 2020

StrangusMaximus wrote: »

7. When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?
Probably high medium to high APM for me. I don't feel penalized - contrary to popular belief, a high-end playstyle isn't button mashing or clicking at hyper speed. In fact, if buttons are pressed too quickly, it can actually slow the rotation down because an ability isn't off GCD yet. It's about timing, and I enjoy the rewarding feeling of timing all of my attacks perfectly to achieve optimal dps, even though I don't bash-weave.

If anything, on live, since there are issues with skills not casting, my APM might artificially go up due to "mashing" the skill repeatedly to get it to go off.

Realized I misread the question. I do not feel penalized in live for my current high-mid APM playstyle. I do, however, feel penalized with the new changes for reasons I outlined in my comment above.

Somewhere · March 2020

1. Trial Damage Test Dummy, DPS as a magicka Dragonknight
2. I tested for about 1-2 hours
3. I did notice that light attacks gave out more resources, and rather significantly. I found that sustain became a little too easy. I found that even if I even barely attempted to build any kind of sustain into my build I didn't have to pay attention to my magicka at all. Heavy attacks weren't nearly as impactful. I tried to use a few and while I did notice they dealt more damage, I didn't find it significant enough to bother using, even with boosts such as empower or off balance. Off balance is too difficult of a buff to really notice, and while the duration is ample, if you don't realize the boss has it applied in time, it's usually too late to use a heavy attack anyway. That said, what was very significant was the reduction in channel time for inferno staff heavy attacks and the removal of the snare while channeling. One of the most irritating things about certain heavy attacks is the snare and long channel time and the removal was incredibly nice.

The damage loss compared to live is pretty significant, but I found that with some adjustments I could minimize the loss to only 10k. I actually ended up using dual swords instead of a staff to get the highest damage. Since swords gave 6% damage to everything I did instead of 8% to some of my damage and both now light attacks scale on highest stats, there was minimal damage loss. I was already sustaining on live so I didn't need the magicka return on staff attacks, but even then I was still getting some back because I had staff on my backbar. The stamina return on the swords however, let me use a bash attack after every single skill, as opposed to only some of them.

4. I would say that it feels worse because if you're weaving light attacks perfectly: sustain becomes entirely irrelevant. If you run out of resources however, you don't have a heavy attack that can get you a decent amount rather quickly anymore. You're left spamming these new, very weak light attacks.
5. I don't make any changes at all when someone is off balance.
6. I ran out once, ever, because I had forgotten to enchant a piece of gear. Once that was in place, I never ran out. I found I never had to pay attention to my magicka if I was weaving properly, but the one time I ran out: spamming light attacks felt worse.
7. I would say I play on the threshold between medium and high, over just over 200. I usually light attack - bash - skill, which is already 3 actions in a second, but once you factor in weapon swapping, movement, potions, and synergies I am sure it is

Altyrann · March 2020

What type of content did you test these changes in? Target dummy
If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live? Magicka Templar (my main on Live)
Approximately how long did you test these changes? 3 hours
During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? Noticed both. Light attack rotations are easier to sustain now. Heavy attack rotations aren't necessarily more damage as it depends what you drop to make time for the heavy attack.
Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver? Light attack rotations feel better because of less resource watching. Heavy attack rotations feel worse as they do no more damage and have worse sustain. There is no point looking at light / heavy attacks in isolation from the rotations they allow.
When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you? For PvE I find this broadly irrelevant. It's rare in actual content even to be able to see a target is off balance and I have yet to find any benefit to trying to adjust my rotation when it happens. It's simply an invisible bonus.
How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers? Less often using light attack rotations, more often using heavy attack rotations.
When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM? On a dummy, likely medium. In a trial likely high given extra synergies, movement etc. Core attacking and light / heavy weaving feels fine. Bash weaving feels necessary to push top damage output but looks silly and feels incongruous (I'd far rather bashing was an interrupt and not a damage source). Whether I'm managing 1 or 5 actions in a second becomes irrelevant when the server freezes for 5 seconds at a time.

Not in your questions but very relevant - damage seems to be 10-15k down depending on setup. Is this intended?

Brovah · March 2020

These changes can kill the fun for a large group of players.
If the gap is too wide for vet and new players.. why not learn the new players how to do weaving?
And when vet players join pugs on a random day they know what they get into and try to tell ppl how to do it
I am not even testing this. Just by reading this "new way" I am tempted to just leave the game. Stop throwing the players back and forth with these changes and just improve the way of playing by fixing performance etc. Isn't that what this year was going to all about?

Septimus_Magna · March 2020

1. What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
o If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?
Breton Magicka Sorcerer dps, on Live I mainly play my Breton Sorcerer tank and Orc Stamina Necromancer for dps. I have played as dps with my Magicka Sorcerer from Launch to about Murkmire. I tried the changes on a 3m target dummy self-buffed and on the raid dummy.

2. Approximately how long did you test these changes?
Approximately 1 hour and 30 minutes.

3. During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?
I did notice that light attacks restore resources because I could easily sustain with max health/magicka food without potions, elemental drain or sustain sets. I did notice that heavy attacks don’t restore resources but had no trouble sustaining a heavy attack rotation on the 3m dummy.

4. Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?
First off, I like that fact that heavy attacks deal more damage compared to Live. It also makes sense (from a fantasy realism perspective) that a light attack restores resources and a heavy attacks deal more damage. Currently on Live the only reason to heavy attack is to regain resources because the damage is too low for the duration that you cannot cast skills. On the PTS I don’t like the fact that light attacks barely do any damage now. When applying DOTs and buffs you still want to light attack weave but perfectly weaving would result in a very tiny dps increase and improved sustain which hardy is an issue anymore. During the short test I did I noticed that weaving with heavy attacks is really easy and honestly extremely boring. You can press the next skill at any time during the charge/channel so it seems like timing doesn’t matter anymore which is not a good change in my opinion.

My conclusion is that light attack damage is reduced way too much, a reduction by 20-30% compared to live would be more fitting. The change to heavy attack damage is positive and the removal of the snare while channeling also feels great. The changes make it easier to sustain a light attack rotation, heavy attack rotation was sustainable too so that all good. I understand buffing slower paced rotation but I don’t like that fact that the factor of player skill is reduced so much.

5. When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?
When the target because Off-Balance I continued the attacks in both a light and heavy attack rotation, I didn’t notice a significant difference in sustain or damage output.

6. How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?
I did not run into sustain issues during the test. Sustain during the light attack rotation feels a lot better, sustain during a heavy attack rotation is a little worse but still manageable.

7. When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?
Medium APM, I feel my damage output is definitely penalized but sustain was improved. The experience at my regular APM was worse because it feels like performing many actions is barely having any effect on dps output.

desndb · March 2020

As a Console user, who cannot access the PTS...
And as a person who is a casual player, with bad carpel tunnel, I build heavy attack toons for a reason: it's less stress on my wrists and hands. It's also great for a sustain build.

Do I do vet content? Yes!
Is it harder for me? Yes!
Am I looking for the game to be more difficult (due to having to change my whole rotation, build, play style)? No!

If the only way for me to have manageable sustain now is to LA... I'll pass.
I really don't need anymore pain in my hands and wrists than I already have.
And as someone who spends an exorbitant amount of money on this game... Please don't make me find something new to play! I love ESO!
I'm fine with not being the best. I have completed most end game content without issue (and what I haven't been able to get through, is mostly lag/latency related).

This change will make it harder for people with disabilities and those who are challenged by "button mashing", because in order to sustain, we will HAVE to button mash (weave). It makes no sense!
If you want to give each attack a "sustain" number and damage number... Great. But don't make the game (playing it) dependent on everyone learning 3 different attacks that do 3 different things; 1 of which, will be more difficult for a lot of us to do.

The "high damage" people won't care for the change because your adding unnecessary time and steps to thier rotations... While the rest of us will be upset we have to figure out how to "weave" in order to keep resources up (regardless of whether or not we are even ABLE to).

Please do NOT let this go live.
Please figure something else out.
I'm sure you can bring the floor and ceiling together in a different way (raising the floor is better than lowering the ceiling).

parpin · March 2020

as healer i use my HA currently to get some magika back, current system is fine and most people are ok with it, this game is easy to learn and there are ton of guides on youtube and websites, i do not think new players need massive change like this to understand the game, this is garbage excuse used by ZOS to change combat system to whatever reason they have, i really do not think this change is needed at all, combat currently is fine other than some class balance issue and some over powered armor set that needs to be addressed. i do not know why ZOS spend money and development time to change/fix something that is not broken, i hope feed back from people will stop them from doing this if they listen to people feedback that is.

Troodon80 · March 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)

PvE, overland world bosses and normal dungeons (solo).

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?

Tank. (with Maelstrom bow back bar)

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Approximately how long did you test these changes?

To get a fair comparison, I tested for two hours on both Live and PTS to examine the changes in detail.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?

There wasn't much of a change overall from my usual 7-8k single target DPS as a full spec PvE tank (Ebon+Yolnahkriin since Alkosh would have been wasted solo on a DK). Nothing really noticeable over Live without multiple consecutive light attacks. Moreover, since there's no reason to do a heavy attack for damage as a tank, there's nothing really to test. Less heavy attacks means less DPS from heavy attacks.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?

Much, much worse. I already light attack weave since it's good practice to do so anyway, but the sustain is nowhere near as good. In order to get similar sustain, one must light attack for ~5 seconds instead of heavy attacking for 1.5~1.9 seconds (this also includes, in later tests, stamina recovery glyphs, which I wouldn't usually use on a tank due to there being no stamina recovery while blocking).

This greatly increases the risk to a tank if they need to block during that time. Generally, I rarely have issues with sustain on Live. I didn't think I would have that much of an issue on the PTS and, at first, didn't think I'd need to test as it likely wouldn't affect me. I realise now that it will. It will affect beginner tanks much, much worse, but it will also affect the higher end of the spectrum and make it more difficult overall.

In short, if this change hits Live, you'll see a lot more tanks flailing about trying to hit things with consecutive light attacks (which is going to look hilarious), as well as a lot more low level or inexperienced tanks getting one-shot from boss heavy attacks because they don't have stamina to block or roll dodge. Thus widening the gap considerably, but also raising the ceiling in terms of skill.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?

Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash, Blockade, etc. No noticeable effects.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?

Depending on the circumstances:

On a spectrum:

World bosses were comparatively easy since their "light" attacks don't typically do that much damage. You don't need to block those. Blocking, roll dodging, or simply moving out of the way of heavy attacks means that stamina recovery glyphs are good when mixed in with light attacks.
Trash or "base pop" are not terribly difficult if you don't block. This assumes a group has a healer, whereas I was solo and wanted to test multiple things. (A) not blocking (using shields and self-heals; of which Vigour is stamina based) and (B) blocking. If a tank blocks with aggro from a lot of enemies, the stamina cost is not recoverable with light weaving and you must instead dedicate a lot more time to getting in consecutive light attacks for around 5 seconds to recover what a heavy attack currently restores on Live in less than half the time.
On a fight with multiple bosses (March of Sacrifices), hard hitting bosses (hard hitting light attacks; Unhallowed Grave, last boss), or bosses with hard hitting adds (BRP, Icereach, etc.), this becomes substantially more difficult as you need to block more or roll dodge more with limited time for consecutive light attacks.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?

Medium. I can't think of a time when there is cause for button-mashing on a tank. I'm unsure whether or not DPS tanks will be affected to any great degree.

Tagging @John_Falstaff since this was mentioned on page two.

Rykoth · March 2020

I am very much a fan of these changes.

Ultimately, ESO's content - all of it - should be accessible by the majority of players. As it stands right now unless you follow very specific meta builds with very specific item sets, only a small fraction of the player base can do certain pieces of content. By allowing light attacks to do resource gain and making heavy attacks do the increased damage, I think it levels the playing field.

Yeah, hard mode is going to still be hard mode. Vet is still going to be vet, but I think it'll make the content more accessible (obviously folks will still have to learn how to do it and do it well) by a whole lot more of people.

So yes, please make this thing a reality, please don't bow down before a small segment of meta elites.

Schattenfluegel · March 2020

What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?

Ive testet it with my Main on the trial Dummy - Stamsorc. I am mainly raiding with a slight progress.

Approximately how long did you test these changes?

15 - 20 minutes

During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?

It was noticable yes. But i feel not very good about it, because, you can play easyly with blue food on a stam sorc with good filled ressourcepool. The problem is, the class is heavyly based on weaponlines and the new arnament dmg. I have to use Dots dmg-wise on a Mixed Rota to go in line with the timing on arnaments and the bowbar - only HA has to less dmg.

Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?

Much more worse. Ive run two rotas on pts. LA-rota 57k, Mixed Rota 56k (could be higher, but i havent played much in the last months) - and the char was fully buffed with relequen, Lokkestiz, Poisoned Weapons and good pots. On Live, i am able to do that without Relequen and the good stuff in terms of practise. You loose to much, if you are working at the rotation. Its still sad

When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?

I never realizied that really. Just playing rotation.

How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?

I never run under 60% - for the terms of fighting alone its quite nice. But if you play raids, its just overpowered (dont forget healers). I am able to support my rota on live with specialized food and bubbles/shards/buffs from healers. I prefer the last more.

When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?

I dont know what my apm is right now and at least, i dont care about some sort of APM. The problem is not the APM too, but missing practise. High Dmg needs a perfect timing, you wont get this without practising rota or playing raids. The APM can be low to, but if you hit the timing, the dmg goes higher an higher. Like written above, i am very disappointet about that paradigm, because it will change not the dps on newer players or the performance, only practising will. It feels more like an asskick for players, who practising the rota to get that numbers. And it kills a lot of work, that was done over years and months.

ESO_Nightingale · March 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Light and Heavy attack changes currently on the PTS. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, please answer the following questions and let us know what you think.

While we prefer you utilize /feedback in-game and will be prioritizing those reports, you’re welcome to also post in this thread if you’d prefer. Please keep all other discussion surrounding these changes to this other thread; we want to focus this thread on the questions being asked. Thank you!
What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?

Approximately how long did you test these changes?

During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?

Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?

When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?

How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?

When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?

1: overland, target dummy
2: magicka warden dps
3: 2 hours
4: i noticed that my light attacks restored a few resources and did no-where near as much damage. and my heavy attacks gave nothing. my experience was pretty awful to be honest. because heavy attacks were used to gain a decent amount of resources back at the punishment of a cast time. when you get low on resources you have to spam light attacks which feels horrible unlike heavy attacks which gave you a generous amount of resources back, where you could actually use a skill or 2 which could buy you enough time to use a potion for more resources. with the loss of the heavy attack resource return it just doesn't feel good at all. i don't know why these things were changed.
5: it just feels stupid and awful. how it worked on live was fine. no-one complained about it. i don't like charging slow heavy attacks to deal damage. it detracts from the fast paced nature of the game. seriously godawful changes.
6: since off balance was changed last patch i haven't wanted to utilise it. how it performed during dragonhold was fine. there was no need to change it. especially the cooldown on it. because it was one of the last good stun options available to stamina players. because it's uptime is now erratic why should i even bother testing this crap?
7: it took a little longer to run out of resources but the trade off was that it was truely awful to get resources back in combat. it feels truely and completely disgusting to try and get resources back. i'll ask again, why the *** did you think spending time changing THIS was a good idea right now? most of the changes seem like suggestions that were made by random forest children who have played the game for 5 minutes and were angry that it wasn't tes V: skyrim.

[Snip]

[Snip]

[Edited for bashing and discussing moderator action]

Qbiken · March 2020

Rykoth wrote: »

I am very much a fan of these changes.

Ultimately, ESO's content - all of it - should be accessible by the majority of players. As it stands right now unless you follow very specific meta builds with very specific item sets, only a small fraction of the player base can do certain pieces of content. By allowing light attacks to do resource gain and making heavy attacks do the increased damage, I think it levels the playing field.

Yeah, hard mode is going to still be hard mode. Vet is still going to be vet, but I think it'll make the content more accessible (obviously folks will still have to learn how to do it and do it well) by a whole lot more of people.

So yes, please make this thing a reality, please don't bow down before a small segment of meta elites.

Exactly what type of content isn't accessible by the majority of players? Veteran trials is definitely accessible by a big majority. Even stuff like Asylum +2 and Cloudrest +3 ,is cleared by more and more players than ever before.

If your goal is to only clear the content, meta is almost never necessary, but once you want to achieve more than that, there will always be ways that are more effective than others, aka a meta.

JinMori · March 2020

Qbiken wrote: »

Rykoth wrote: »

I am very much a fan of these changes.

Ultimately, ESO's content - all of it - should be accessible by the majority of players. As it stands right now unless you follow very specific meta builds with very specific item sets, only a small fraction of the player base can do certain pieces of content. By allowing light attacks to do resource gain and making heavy attacks do the increased damage, I think it levels the playing field.

Yeah, hard mode is going to still be hard mode. Vet is still going to be vet, but I think it'll make the content more accessible (obviously folks will still have to learn how to do it and do it well) by a whole lot more of people.

So yes, please make this thing a reality, please don't bow down before a small segment of meta elites.

Exactly what type of content isn't accessible by the majority of players? Veteran trials is definitely accessible by a big majority. Even stuff like Asylum +2 and Cloudrest +3 ,is cleared by more and more players than ever before.

If your goal is to only clear the content, meta is almost never necessary, but once you want to achieve more than that, there will always be ways that are more effective than others, aka a meta.

Why do these people think that nerfing light attacks will help them become better? It won't, this is a nerf to everyone, this does not raise the floor in any way, i have to wonder if they even think about what they say.

Someone suggested, what if both heavy and light attacks restored resources, and i thought, yea why not.

I still stand behind the suggestion i made before, which is, if you are gonna nerf light attacks, you need to make sure that every single dps lost is gained back through abilities, otherwise just don't.

ketsparrowhawk · March 2020

What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)
- Target Dummy and Dueling

If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?
- DPS

Approximately how long did you test these changes?
- About an hour

During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?
- Yes. Sustain is much easier when light-attack weaving. Was unable to figure out a heavy-attack rotation that netted my usual DPS.

Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?
- When resource bars are full, it feels no different. LA weaving is still essential for sustain (and thus damage).
- When resource bars are empty it feels much worse. Spamming LA's is no more intuitive than doing a heavy to restore resources.. but at least heavy attacks feel better to do in this scenario.

When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?
- Set target off balance with wall of shock.
- Light Attacks: I did not notice any potent effects. Sustain is already effortless with LA's restoring resources. Off balance hardly seemed to matter.
- Heavy Attacks: Definitely do more damage to off-balance targets, but I still was unable to reach my usual DPS. Chaged my race from Breton to Altmer. Changed food from Witcmother to Tristat (it's just what I had in my inventory). Tried working heavies into the rotation in various ways. Best I could do was about 3k less than my current live setup.

How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?
- With my imported live build as-is, I can sustain about 30-40% longer than usual while LA weaving.
- Spamming light attacks to regain resources feels very bad, imo.. and no more intuitive than doing a heavy attack. I strongly prefer heavies to regain resources.

When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?
- High
- The new paradigm doesn't seem to have any effect on this at all. LA weaving is still hugely beneficial because it is a major source of sustain, thus enabling the player to pack more damage into their build. Players who do not LA weave will still be at a disadvantage. The "penalty" comes in the form of needing to spam LA's to refill my resource bar, which does not feel good at all.

Milli_Rabbit · March 2020

What type of content did you test these changes in? (Dungeons, Trials, Dueling, PvP, Battlegrounds, Target Dummy, etc)

I did solo WBs in Deshaan.

If PvE, what role did you test with, and what role do you mainly use on Live?

I tested the PTS with my copied over Magicka Warden and compared it to my live Magicka Warden.

Approximately how long did you test these changes?

45 minutes

During your playtesting, did you notice that Light Attacks restore resources and that Heavy Attacks deal increased damage? If so, what was your experience with both or either of these attacks?

Yes, both! Light attack weaving still works as before with simply reduced damage. It felt a little odd at first to spam light attacks when I overspent resources, but the positive was if I was in a critical position, I could more quickly use arctic wind rather than waiting for a fully heavy attack. Heavy attacking feels way better on the PTS. My damage was a bit higher than live, but the biggest thing I liked was the reduced cast times for heavy attacks. It feels so much better than live and hope we can keep the faster cast times on heavy attacks.

Does the new paradigm of Light Attacking to restore resources while dealing low damage, and Heavy Attacking to deal high damage after a buildup, feel better or worse than what’s currently on the Live megaserver?

I compared the same bosses with very similar if not the exact same rotations with the same builds (differences based on human error). I like this new paradigm a lot! My favorite part is that heavy attacking feels better. It hits harder and the cast time is shorter. It will also make heavy attack builds better in PvE which is nice for players who are not very good at light attack weaving or physically can't do it. Light attacking does feel worse, though. It feels like its harder to do good dps and I would suggest bringing light attack damage up a bit (let's try 50% of live, maybe). What I do love is the resource regen from light attacks. It was particularly useful when I made mistakes with overspending resources and needing a quick heal. I could quickly do 1-2 light attacks to get enough magicka for a quick heal rather than pulling a full heavy attack.

When targets became Off Balance, what sort of attacks did you utilize against them, if any? Were you able to identify any potent effects that Off Balance enabled for you?

Off Balance is hard to see, sadly. I generally do not play any differently with off balance and just assume it happens sometimes.

How often did you run out of resources during your play session? Did recuperating them feel better or worse to what you are accustomed to on the Live servers?

Copy and pasting from above: "It was particularly useful when I made mistakes with overspending resources and needing a quick heal. I could quickly do 1-2 light attacks to get enough magicka for a quick heal rather than pulling a full heavy attack." Otherwise, it felt weird to spam light attacks for resources as compared to a single heavy attack. This is mostly just being used to live, though.

When playing our game, do you play at a Low (Under 100), Medium (100-200), or High (200+) Actions Per Minute? (Note this includes movement and other non-combat actions, not just ability presses). Do you ever feel penalized for playing as one of these with the new paradigm? Do you enjoy playing at your experienced APM?

High generally. I think light attack weaving did get penalized and maybe we could reduce the light attack nerf to 50% of live. See how it goes. I love fast paced gameplay because its challenging and challenging is what makes a game fun to me. However, in this PTS, the heavy attack rotation felt good. It felt better and less boring that live in my opinion.

Vinterskald · March 2020

Soo, let's see:

1. What did you test and on which role? I did a couple smaller things. I tested on the Iron Atronach with my main magicka sorcerer healer, just basic draining resources by using skills and then seeing how long and how exactly they refill with regular lightning staff attacks. I did a test parse on a magicka nightblade, also on an Iron Atronach. And finally, I did normal Vaults of Madness on that same magicka nightblade. It's a dungeon I've solo'd many many times on live, so I felt this would help me compare the current states on live and the PTS, respectively.
On live, I do most content on my sorcerer healer. But since finding groups for content where I could test my healing in is difficult on PTS, I went with a magicka nightblade for the more extensive testing. Aside from healing, I have characters of all classes and all roles on live, mostly PvE with a bit of PvP here and there.

2. How long did you test for? Roughly an hour.

3. Did you notice the light attack resource restore and the increased damage of heavy attacks? Uh... well. Kind of? Here's the thing:

On my sorc, I didn't notice much of a difference for the heavy attack damage. I definitely noticed you can restore resources very fast with light attacks, which, to me - a healer who mainly uses heavy attacks in between skills! - felt impossibly... clumsy. I enjoy doing heavy attacks on a lightning staff, and it feels very intuitive for me that they restore magicka due to the nature of the animation. I can't see myself spamming light attacks during a vet dlc dungeon run, but again, I wasn't able to test this.
On the nightblade though, I had the feeling it didn't work at all. I don't know if I ran into a bug there, and if it might be linked to siphoning strikes, but aside from the regular in combat magicka regeneration (which I intentionally kept low on that particular magblade build) I could spam and spam light inferno staff attacks and not get anything back. I ran into a couple situations where I hit a light attack, but my character would be stuck for a couple seconds longer and perform a fully charged heavy attack, which meant even less resources. I thought it might be a ping issue, but I never ran into that same issue on live, even with the same latency.

4. Does the new paradigm feel better or worse than what's currently on live? I'd tend to say worse. I don't mind light attacking restoring resources - when it works - but the removal of resource regeneration from heavy attacks does absolutely feel worse. I'd prefer toning the damage discrepancy down a little, giving smaller amounts of resources back for light attacks, and retaining resource regeneration for heavy attacks.

5. What did you do when targets became off balance, and were you able to identify it? I gotta admit I rarely even noticed targets being off balance on my nightblade. Instictively I heavy attacked them with a lightning staff when I did, though. I'm more used to utilising that feature on my healer, because I feel that while my team mates are busy taunting and damaging enemies, I have the time between heals to set enemies off balance, then identify off balance enemies and stun them if possible.

6. How often did you run out of resources, and did recuperating them feel better or worse? Again, this would probably have been more sensible to test on my healer in an actual group dungeon situation. On the nightblade, due to above mentioned possible bug of rarely getting any resources back, I ran out of magicka all the time. Gotta admit, after reading the patch notes that was the opposite of the problem I expected

So while on potion cooldown I had to just kite and spam light attacks and wait for my regular regeneration.

7. When playing the game, at how many APM do you play? I honestly don't know. I'd suppose on the lower medium spectrum, maybe? 200+ ping (I live in the EU but mainly play on NA, and my ping there is the same as on PTS) often make it difficult for me to properly time my actions, and while I don't know how exactly this works, I have the feeling abilities have a higher priority than regular weapon attacks, so my input of skill -> light attack -> skill -> light attack will often come back as skill -> skill -> light attack. That and occasional joint pain in my fingers make it difficult for me to "weave" properly. "Bash weaving" is pretty much impossible for me, because bashes will always either not go through at all or result in holding block for longer than intended. The highest dps parse on a magicka nightblade I was able to get on PTS (during the very first Harrowstorm patch) was 40k, which is now down to 36k. 40k is already not a huge number by vet standards, but one I was wanting to work at on live, so having that number go down was a slight bit disappointing. One of the things I enjoy the most about combat in ESO when I'm in a damage dealing role is timing damage over time effects, which on my test parses I felt to be actively discouraged - heavy attacks don't leave much time for DoTs, resulting in more static, monotonous rotations. So... I don't know, I found it very difficult to find a middle way there, since I by far am nowhere near the vets who have already come up with possible ways to still get high damage with that new change.

Thanks for reading and considering this.