I don't understand people who want races to be merely cosmetic. Since the inception of TES, the races have had different talents. And hey, check here how Bosmer and Kahjit were represented in the first TES game, Arena:

"Bosmer hail from the province of Valenwood. They are a people of the forests, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. Bosmer receive their (level / 3) as a bonus to hit and damage with any bow weapon. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery. "

"Khajiit are expert climbers, able to scale chasm wall sides with speed unmatched by any other race. " Interesting, nothing about stealth in the Kahjit description. (Although using common sense, real cats ARE stealthy, so it makes kind of sense that they would be stealthy)

Interestingly, Argonians were adept at thievery/sleight of hand and *gasp* magic:
"Argonians are a highly evolved race of reptilians, at home in the marsh-like environment from which they hail. Origins of the Argonians can be traced to their homeland, Black Marsh. They are known for their intelligence, agility and speed. Because of their reptilian nature, Argonians do not tire easily while swimming, and seldom drown. They can also swim faster than any other race. They are adept in any art involving the arcane, or involving thieving and sleight of hand. " So definitely makes sense to have them as magica users and Kahjit as stamina users.

Let's see the races in TES 2, Daggerfall:

"The tall, golden-skinned High Elves are easily equal to the Bretons in sorcerous ability due to their high Intelligence, force of will, and agility. They are more susceptible to spells than the people of High Rock, but by their nature are more completely immune to paralysation." (So stun immunity in Altmer would have made sense)

"The strange reptilian people of Black Marsh seem equally comfortable in the water - surely no other race of Tamriel can swim faster or longer than Argonians. An intelligent, quick-footed, and agile people, Argonians often train in magery and thievery"

"The finest archers in Tamriel, the Wood Elves of Valenwood are nimble and as quick as the wind. Because of the curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves "

"Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of High Rock, and even the humblest Breton can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka."

"The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerors and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves." I guess they were always hybrids, so I have to concede that one, but a fire damage bonus can benefit both mag and stam users; stam users simply need to enchant their weapon with flame damage to benefit.

Ok, here enters the seed for Khajit stealth ability : "Descended from the great cats of the desert, the Khajiit are an agile, intelligent, and hardy people. Some chose to decorate their faces in the style of their feline ancestors, and most all, given their inclination, make excellent thieves due to their Climbing abilities." (Not stealth yet, but climbing, though climbing wouldn't translate to the later games, hence stealth, of course).

"The citizens of Skyrim are a tall and fair-haired people. Strong, willful, and hardy, Nords are famous for their resistance to cold, even magical frost, and are known for their prowess as warriors."

"The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been created for battle. In addition to their affinity for weaponry, Redguards are blessed with hardy constitutions and quickness of foot."

Taking into account that Bosmer, even more than Khajit, had an affinity for stealth from the very first game, I feel it would be a travesty to remove their talent for stealth from the game.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@TheTraveler , I'm not sure how a few excerpts from old games' race descriptions override the lore that signals that khajiits (more so certain subspecies) have strong affinity for magic. And ZOS did state that new passives try to encompass the diversity of the race, makes it logical.

Now I don't mind trading some stealth (and health regen) away for more sustain on stamina and magicka...

Hmm, which lore are you referring to there? In which game was this lore introduced?

(Btw, those excerpts are the description of the abilites and affinities that the specific races came with at character creation, for example +10 intelligence (magical affinity) -10 strength, +10 endurance/willpower and so forth, to specifically cause discrepancies in certain stats between the races so that, this being an RPG, (Role Playing Game), the player would have choices regarding the playstyle they wanted to use - for example to conquer the enemy using either predominantly magic, strength or stealth. )

Make no mistake, I have a Khajiit stamblade myself, which I've been using for both PVP and PVE, and I must admit the only thing I might have found a bit shortcoming is precisely that she is a bit squishy unless I use my WW abilities. So personally, I'd like to hang on to every bit of health and stam that I can.

What gets me is that these changes are basically showing a toffee to us gamers who have put a lot of thought and trouble into optimizing our various characters. A whole lot of that work, money, testing and research will be going out of the window if these changes go through. Not to mention that if you have been playing certain characters over the years, you kinda grow fond of them. I mean, if you had a Bosmer thief, you now have to change that into a Khajiit? A very different aesthetic, though both Bosmer and Khajiit excelled at stamina, so your gear and abilities on these toons are obviously currently geared towards stam abilities. (I have both a Bosmer and a Khajiit at the moment, but on different servers, so I have a stake in the changes to both)

We'll also be granting one free race change, per account.
Edited by ZOS_GinaBruno on January 16, 2019 7:41PM

Can I have one free class change instead? So I can change the class of my Dunmer character from a Dragon Knight to a Nightblade. Due to the loss of the bonus to fire damage. Thank you @ZOS_GinaBruno.

Yes Race Changes are certainly going to mix things up but please dont exploit the situation.

PLEASE RECONSIDER THE STEALTH CHANGES TO BOSMER.

I very rarely can be bothered to post on forums, as I feel that generally anything I have to say will never be read by anybody making game development decisions, so why should I waste my time...

However, as somebody who also loves the Bosmer because of their stealth (and does NOT want to play as a Khajiit...) I have to suggest: Keep them stealthy by: Maintain their reduced detection radius, and increase the movement speed while in sneak instead of after roll-dodge to make it different from the cat-folk. I understand wanting to make the passive different from Khajiit, but to do away with it entirely??? That is foolish.

How many of the people suggesting and implementing these changes actually play ESO? Because if the people making game play decisions were made to spend a certain amount of time per month actually playing the game it would definitely show in the suggestions they made...

TheTraveler wrote: »

I don't understand people who want races to be merely cosmetic. Since the inception of TES, the races have had different talents. And hey, check here how Bosmer and Kahjit were represented in the first TES game, Arena:

"Bosmer hail from the province of Valenwood. They are a people of the forests, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. Bosmer receive their (level / 3) as a bonus to hit and damage with any bow weapon. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery. "

"Khajiit are expert climbers, able to scale chasm wall sides with speed unmatched by any other race. " Interesting, nothing about stealth in the Kahjit description. (Although using common sense, real cats ARE stealthy, so it makes kind of sense that they would be stealthy)

Interestingly, Argonians were adept at thievery/sleight of hand and *gasp* magic:
"Argonians are a highly evolved race of reptilians, at home in the marsh-like environment from which they hail. Origins of the Argonians can be traced to their homeland, Black Marsh. They are known for their intelligence, agility and speed. Because of their reptilian nature, Argonians do not tire easily while swimming, and seldom drown. They can also swim faster than any other race. They are adept in any art involving the arcane, or involving thieving and sleight of hand. " So definitely makes sense to have them as magica users and Kahjit as stamina users.

Let's see the races in TES 2, Daggerfall:

"The tall, golden-skinned High Elves are easily equal to the Bretons in sorcerous ability due to their high Intelligence, force of will, and agility. They are more susceptible to spells than the people of High Rock, but by their nature are more completely immune to paralysation." (So stun immunity in Altmer would have made sense)

"The strange reptilian people of Black Marsh seem equally comfortable in the water - surely no other race of Tamriel can swim faster or longer than Argonians. An intelligent, quick-footed, and agile people, Argonians often train in magery and thievery"

"The finest archers in Tamriel, the Wood Elves of Valenwood are nimble and as quick as the wind. Because of the curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves "

"Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of High Rock, and even the humblest Breton can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka."

"The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerors and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves." I guess they were always hybrids, so I have to concede that one, but a fire damage bonus can benefit both mag and stam users; stam users simply need to enchant their weapon with flame damage to benefit.

Ok, here enters the seed for Khajit stealth ability : "Descended from the great cats of the desert, the Khajiit are an agile, intelligent, and hardy people. Some chose to decorate their faces in the style of their feline ancestors, and most all, given their inclination, make excellent thieves due to their Climbing abilities." (Not stealth yet, but climbing, though climbing wouldn't translate to the later games, hence stealth, of course).

"The citizens of Skyrim are a tall and fair-haired people. Strong, willful, and hardy, Nords are famous for their resistance to cold, even magical frost, and are known for their prowess as warriors."

"The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been created for battle. In addition to their affinity for weaponry, Redguards are blessed with hardy constitutions and quickness of foot."

Taking into account that Bosmer, even more than Khajit, had an affinity for stealth from the very first game, I feel it would be a travesty to remove their talent for stealth from the game.

Well if going by that then Argonians should be Magic and Stamina not Tanks.

Koronach wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

I don't understand people who want races to be merely cosmetic. Since the inception of TES, the races have had different talents. And hey, check here how Bosmer and Kahjit were represented in the first TES game, Arena:

"Bosmer hail from the province of Valenwood. They are a people of the forests, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. Bosmer receive their (level / 3) as a bonus to hit and damage with any bow weapon. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery. "

"Khajiit are expert climbers, able to scale chasm wall sides with speed unmatched by any other race. " Interesting, nothing about stealth in the Kahjit description. (Although using common sense, real cats ARE stealthy, so it makes kind of sense that they would be stealthy)

Interestingly, Argonians were adept at thievery/sleight of hand and *gasp* magic:
"Argonians are a highly evolved race of reptilians, at home in the marsh-like environment from which they hail. Origins of the Argonians can be traced to their homeland, Black Marsh. They are known for their intelligence, agility and speed. Because of their reptilian nature, Argonians do not tire easily while swimming, and seldom drown. They can also swim faster than any other race. They are adept in any art involving the arcane, or involving thieving and sleight of hand. " So definitely makes sense to have them as magica users and Kahjit as stamina users.

Let's see the races in TES 2, Daggerfall:

"The tall, golden-skinned High Elves are easily equal to the Bretons in sorcerous ability due to their high Intelligence, force of will, and agility. They are more susceptible to spells than the people of High Rock, but by their nature are more completely immune to paralysation." (So stun immunity in Altmer would have made sense)

"The strange reptilian people of Black Marsh seem equally comfortable in the water - surely no other race of Tamriel can swim faster or longer than Argonians. An intelligent, quick-footed, and agile people, Argonians often train in magery and thievery"

"The finest archers in Tamriel, the Wood Elves of Valenwood are nimble and as quick as the wind. Because of the curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves "

"Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of High Rock, and even the humblest Breton can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka."

"The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerors and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves." I guess they were always hybrids, so I have to concede that one, but a fire damage bonus can benefit both mag and stam users; stam users simply need to enchant their weapon with flame damage to benefit.

Ok, here enters the seed for Khajit stealth ability : "Descended from the great cats of the desert, the Khajiit are an agile, intelligent, and hardy people. Some chose to decorate their faces in the style of their feline ancestors, and most all, given their inclination, make excellent thieves due to their Climbing abilities." (Not stealth yet, but climbing, though climbing wouldn't translate to the later games, hence stealth, of course).

"The citizens of Skyrim are a tall and fair-haired people. Strong, willful, and hardy, Nords are famous for their resistance to cold, even magical frost, and are known for their prowess as warriors."

"The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been created for battle. In addition to their affinity for weaponry, Redguards are blessed with hardy constitutions and quickness of foot."

Taking into account that Bosmer, even more than Khajit, had an affinity for stealth from the very first game, I feel it would be a travesty to remove their talent for stealth from the game.

Well if going by that then Argonians should be Magic and Stamina not Tanks.

But if you look at the passive bonuses they had, one of them was in health. I think they make good tanks because of the combination of health passive and healing. That ended up being kind of incidental, so they make both good healers and tanks, and why shouldn't they be magica tanks? Magica tank is also a thing...

TheTraveler wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

I don't understand people who want races to be merely cosmetic. Since the inception of TES, the races have had different talents. And hey, check here how Bosmer and Kahjit were represented in the first TES game, Arena:

"Bosmer hail from the province of Valenwood. They are a people of the forests, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. Bosmer receive their (level / 3) as a bonus to hit and damage with any bow weapon. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery. "

"Khajiit are expert climbers, able to scale chasm wall sides with speed unmatched by any other race. " Interesting, nothing about stealth in the Kahjit description. (Although using common sense, real cats ARE stealthy, so it makes kind of sense that they would be stealthy)

Interestingly, Argonians were adept at thievery/sleight of hand and *gasp* magic:
"Argonians are a highly evolved race of reptilians, at home in the marsh-like environment from which they hail. Origins of the Argonians can be traced to their homeland, Black Marsh. They are known for their intelligence, agility and speed. Because of their reptilian nature, Argonians do not tire easily while swimming, and seldom drown. They can also swim faster than any other race. They are adept in any art involving the arcane, or involving thieving and sleight of hand. " So definitely makes sense to have them as magica users and Kahjit as stamina users.

Let's see the races in TES 2, Daggerfall:

"The tall, golden-skinned High Elves are easily equal to the Bretons in sorcerous ability due to their high Intelligence, force of will, and agility. They are more susceptible to spells than the people of High Rock, but by their nature are more completely immune to paralysation." (So stun immunity in Altmer would have made sense)

"The strange reptilian people of Black Marsh seem equally comfortable in the water - surely no other race of Tamriel can swim faster or longer than Argonians. An intelligent, quick-footed, and agile people, Argonians often train in magery and thievery"

"The finest archers in Tamriel, the Wood Elves of Valenwood are nimble and as quick as the wind. Because of the curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves "

"Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of High Rock, and even the humblest Breton can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka."

"The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerors and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves." I guess they were always hybrids, so I have to concede that one, but a fire damage bonus can benefit both mag and stam users; stam users simply need to enchant their weapon with flame damage to benefit.

Ok, here enters the seed for Khajit stealth ability : "Descended from the great cats of the desert, the Khajiit are an agile, intelligent, and hardy people. Some chose to decorate their faces in the style of their feline ancestors, and most all, given their inclination, make excellent thieves due to their Climbing abilities." (Not stealth yet, but climbing, though climbing wouldn't translate to the later games, hence stealth, of course).

"The citizens of Skyrim are a tall and fair-haired people. Strong, willful, and hardy, Nords are famous for their resistance to cold, even magical frost, and are known for their prowess as warriors."

"The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been created for battle. In addition to their affinity for weaponry, Redguards are blessed with hardy constitutions and quickness of foot."

Taking into account that Bosmer, even more than Khajit, had an affinity for stealth from the very first game, I feel it would be a travesty to remove their talent for stealth from the game.

Well if going by that then Argonians should be Magic and Stamina not Tanks.

But if you look at the passive bonuses they had, one of them was in health. I think they make good tanks because of the combination of health passive and healing. That ended up being kind of incidental, so they make both good healers and tanks, and why shouldn't they be magica tanks? Magica tank is also a thing...

I just feel Magic and Stam fit them more, the TG and DB are filled with them and the elite DB faction the Shadowscales. Tank just doesn't come to mind when I think of Argonians from all the TES games combined.

And about that damage bonus in stealth. Who has that bonus now...... no one. [edit]

[edited for baiting]

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

I will be an constructive as possible because it seems I am hurting some persons feelings.

In the case of a Bosmer and a Khajiit. What has replaced the stealth damage a and sneak potential? Bosmer now are able to roll dodge and gain a 20% boost to speed, I can imagine them playing with their victims regarding certain sets, and are able to spot enemies at 3m the cost of a 3m sneak. Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style. Neither have the damage bonus as before, and both are based on lore. Bosmer being that they turn into ravenous hunting beasts if you mess with their forest, and khajit for being master thief's with a whole back story and Daedric Items to back it up.

I would trade 3m of stealth for a 20% speed boost any day. I know majority who love the changes are not on the forums voicing frustrations when simply should not be as big a deal, so peeps should be calm. Now it would be warranted if people of which I will not mention, can back the statements with proof, data, and statistics, this will make me and many others take what is said more seriously. I have shown these. The Bosmer race will still be viable in a sneaky role and honestly be able to roll out of danger and pop into sneak mode with a 20% speed boost. This enables a quick getaway.

I am trying to show everyone that the team at ZOS have really number crunched on the races while providing unique buffs, and they are indeed balanced. Every race is now viable. But of course tweaking would not hurt for the sake of diversity. I could name a ton of lore related reasons to tweak the races.