ESO Class Reps

DuskMarine · June 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

batters92 wrote: »

you should reconsider the decision that everybody represents everything. after more than one week the PvE mag sorc dd discord channels (pet and non-pet) didn't get any attention by class reps… this means not a single topic related comment, input or call back about community suggestions. tbh i didn't expect anything and i am still disappointed. even the meme channel sees more class rep activity.

the community made many good points about how sorcs could be again more fun to play and provided suggestions about dungeons and trials, especially pets are a hot topic. maybe it is true that class reps silently take notes and add them to their list, maybe. but in my opinion at the latest when people for example suggest pets getting the warden treatment and you only activate them once in 30, maybe 60, seconds the class reps should intervene and remind the community about class identity. without moderation we will have 1 class with 5 different names soon.

Me and @Hexys have compiled lots of feedback from both the forum threads and discords already. I read all of it and can summarise the major pain points very specifically, especially concerning pets, their interaction in pvp, trials and dungeons, the lack of a class spammable ability, sorcs' awful sustain compared to other classes, shield stacking in pvp, etc.

I spent at least three hours this weekend (in my free time) to summarise the sorc feedback and transfer it over to the form that I implemented. I am currently doing the same for other classes. If that's not enough for you, then I don't know what else you expect us to do

sorcs awful sustain?? their sustain is one of the easiest in game to keep up. a major league pain point is how broken their shields can get. and how brain dead the pets are since we cant really control them.

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

Have you looked at one of my builds for example? They're targeted to enable an easy entrance to trial content... @Alcast also has detailed guides to let newcomers understand the builds...

HHmmm... that comment alone makes me... err... erect my spine, as an argonian would say ?

Do you differentiate between newcomers, casual and non-competitive ?
The "class balance" per se concerns only maybe 10% of players. Those with a min/maxing, theorycrafting, competitive state of mind.
The rest of us don't choose race, class or skills because they're efficient or competitive. We choose them because they're fun, because of the lore, because of our intimate representation of our character, etc.
As such, we're not directly concerned by all this class-balance changes, but we're very concerned by the mess you're going to put with our playstyles.
We (I know I don't represent everyone but there's a lot of people I talk to who think like me, so let's say "we" for that sake) don't want to watch videos and we're not going to. Playing a video game should not require extra work outside of the game. We don't care about "progress", we don't want to learn (let alone re-learn !!) and we want (at least some) content to be "balanced" around us.

I am very concerned that your "representative" work will represent top players only, and push for more difficult content, whereas all we want is to "play how we want" and not be punished for it. Too many players want to play bow and have to give it up on their main bar because it's not valid for vet content.

Also please SIMPLIFY things !!! Instead of saying "go look at videos". At the moment nearly every skill tooltip reads like "IF your gear is pink, IF there are between 3 and 5 people in your group, IF you use a class ability within 2.43 seconds after having used a weapon ability, and IF your opponent is undead, you have a 43.8% chance of spawning something that will eventually deal AOE damage in a 16.4 meter range on a 6x4 area for 4.8 seconds with a cooldown of 8.7 seconds but can be shorter if you have animation cancelled before, IF the boss isn't immune and provided you're put at least 2 skill points in X and Y passives".
I'm being sarcastic here but that's sincerely how it sounds and looks for us people who enjoy PLAYING and not STUDYING.

I know you're not designing the skills, but please keep us in mind when selecting the feedback you're collecting, and also please take this concern over to ZOS. Thank you.

Masel92 wrote: »

I spent at least three hours this weekend (in my free time) to summarise the sorc feedback and transfer it over to the form that I implemented. I am currently doing the same for other classes. If that's not enough for you, then I don't know what else you expect us to do

Where's this summary ?
I think people don't want to have to look in dozens of different places to find your conclusions, and they also want to know what feedback you've selected for discussions with ZOS. In other words, not a bottom-up process but also a top-bottom one.

MassPandemic · June 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

We’re excited to let everyone know we’re ready to announce the members of the ESO Class Representative Program! Everyone in the program has played ESO for years, and has hundreds, if not over a thousand days played. While some of these players may specialize in one or two classes in particular, everyone has max level characters in every class and is experienced in both PvP and PvE. It was a difficult decision to make and there were many qualified players, but we’re very thrilled to have these 12 players kicking off this new program.

After combing through almost 170 player nominations, we’d like to present the new ESO Class Representatives:
Alcast

Checkmath

FearTurbo

GandTheImpaler

Hexys

JoyDivision

KenaPK

Liofa

Masel92

Quantum_V

Stileanima

Tasear

As a reminder, the class reps will be collating top concerns for every class to present to the Dev Team; they will not be making game-altering decisions, but they will make sure your voice is heard. After each quarterly meeting, the plan will be to publish notes so everyone can see what was discussed, and you can ask questions to the group. We’re tentatively scheduling the first meeting around the middle of June.

Please join us in congratulating and welcoming this group to the program!

Wow this is awesome, this is a cool way to do things with class changes and stuff. I have to say im loving this game more and more with each update , hopefully i'm not one of the few. As someone who played at launch and wrote the game off to come back a year later and play off on , seeing how you guys didn't give up on the game and were able to listen to the feedback to make a better product for everyone is impressive. The amount of content you guys are able to consistently put out with a dev team probably smaller then some of the bigger MMO's (just speculation) is awesome too. Hopefully this program ends up doing good things , which it looks like it will. I always check out alcasts stuff so to see him on this list is cool , im happy for him. I know im rambling just wanted to say thank you to the dev team and to the players who will hopefully represent our voices in the best possible way thanks in advance as well.

Alcast · June 2018

duendology wrote: »

I am concerned that most of these class representatives will be more focused on end game content than on game in general.

From what I've seen most "veterans" who run these yotube/twitch/whatever channels forgot long time ago what it is like to be new to a game.

So, how do they represent players who are new and inexperienced or simply casual? My guts tell me they will represent themselves and people who frequent this forum.

I guess we'll wait and see.

My main goal in the rep program is to make the game easier accessible for new players (for all classes/setups) & Class Identity. However, keep in mind it is Wrobel we are talking about. So do not expect any changes at all.

Masel · June 2018

DuskMarine wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

batters92 wrote: »

you should reconsider the decision that everybody represents everything. after more than one week the PvE mag sorc dd discord channels (pet and non-pet) didn't get any attention by class reps… this means not a single topic related comment, input or call back about community suggestions. tbh i didn't expect anything and i am still disappointed. even the meme channel sees more class rep activity.

the community made many good points about how sorcs could be again more fun to play and provided suggestions about dungeons and trials, especially pets are a hot topic. maybe it is true that class reps silently take notes and add them to their list, maybe. but in my opinion at the latest when people for example suggest pets getting the warden treatment and you only activate them once in 30, maybe 60, seconds the class reps should intervene and remind the community about class identity. without moderation we will have 1 class with 5 different names soon.

Me and @Hexys have compiled lots of feedback from both the forum threads and discords already. I read all of it and can summarise the major pain points very specifically, especially concerning pets, their interaction in pvp, trials and dungeons, the lack of a class spammable ability, sorcs' awful sustain compared to other classes, shield stacking in pvp, etc.

I spent at least three hours this weekend (in my free time) to summarise the sorc feedback and transfer it over to the form that I implemented. I am currently doing the same for other classes. If that's not enough for you, then I don't know what else you expect us to do

sorcs awful sustain?? their sustain is one of the easiest in game to keep up. a major league pain point is how broken their shields can get. and how brain dead the pets are since we cant really control them.

Nope, it is not. You can conclude based on combat metrics data that sorcs do in fact have the worst sustain in the game without heavy attacking. I was simply summarising the feedback we received, and at least 10% of sorc feeedback comments included awful sustain.

MassPandemic · June 2018

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Have you looked at one of my builds for example? They're targeted to enable an easy entrance to trial content... @Alcast also has detailed guides to let newcomers understand the builds...

HHmmm... that comment alone makes me... err... erect my spine, as an argonian would say ?

Do you differentiate between newcomers, casual and non-competitive ?
The "class balance" per se concerns only maybe 10% of players. Those with a min/maxing, theorycrafting, competitive state of mind.
The rest of us don't choose race, class or skills because they're efficient or competitive. We choose them because they're fun, because of the lore, because of our intimate representation of our character, etc.
As such, we're not directly concerned by all this class-balance changes, but we're very concerned by the mess you're going to put with our playstyles.
We (I know I don't represent everyone but there's a lot of people I talk to who think like me, so let's say "we" for that sake) don't want to watch videos and we're not going to. Playing a video game should not require extra work outside of the game. We don't care about "progress", we don't want to learn (let alone re-learn !!) and we want (at least some) content to be "balanced" around us.

I am very concerned that your "representative" work will represent top players only, and push for more difficult content, whereas all we want is to "play how we want" and not be punished for it. Too many players want to play bow and have to give it up on their main bar because it's not valid for vet content.

I don't know it sounds to me like you're assuming this is going to do more harm than good. If you play pvp at all you'd know something like this is desperately needed in my opinion which trickles down into pve too. Its not like skills are going to be taken out of the game unless they are problematic this should more then likely try and help even out the classes so one doesn't become a dominating pick for higher tier content. Another thing too is that if you want to do harder content there is always going to be the most optimal way of doing that content that's a fact. You can't get mad at people for finding out that way and telling people the best way to go about doing the content. Nobody is stopping anyone from using the weapons or armor they want to use you just won't be doing optimal damage, healing or whatever the case may be. From all my years playing MMOs its in a class designers best interest to have the top players in mind because they will be the ones who are benefiting the most from broken op skills and builds . If you are not a top player you should have no worry at all about it affecting them so i don't get your point in worrying about it when it wouldn't bother you. What you should do is wait see how this impacts the game ( im willing to bet it will be in a positive way for everyone not just top players) and if it doesn't work the way you would like then you state your opinion and why you think its not working. Right now all you're doing is essentially getting ready to point the finger to people trying to help. One more thing why would more difficult content be a bad thing anyways? The outdoor zones right now are a literal joke i run around and 2 shot most mobs besides world bosses and some slightly tougher adds. This game has become way to easy in most cases besides vet dungeons, vet and normal trials and pvp i guess. I'm all for having content be accessible to the games population, but you want to have content for people to strive to beat so they feel rewarded. Even vet maelstorm arena has gotten much easier recently effectively making it feel easier for people who have done it now compared to before. I know i'm ranting here , but i feel like you're saying they are going to be worrying about them (top tier players) when you're doing the same exact thing just opposite side of the spectrum. Its good for the game to cater to hardcore and casuals or the game will end up pleasing very few people just look at destiny 2 for that.

There's nothing telling you to go and look at someones videos to get the most out of your class thats optional if you want to. They even put a skill advisor in the game which does a decent job at making a build for people thats good enough for end game content. You're simply nitpicking to nitpick its obvious. My girlfriend plays this game with me from time to time along with my 10 year old son he gets by just fine as does she in vet dungeons too. My son plays games pretty regularly but my girlfriend barely plays video games she also used that skill advisor for her build for her templar i didn't look one up for her. I offered but she wanted to try and figure out. If she can do it with minimal experience in MMOs as well as a 10 year old id say they are doing pretty good design wise in my opinion , does my son and girlfriend die in the dungeons ...sure its expected its end game content it shouldn't be a breeze for people who haven't been playing for a long time but it's doable with patience and learning the way any game especially one with any form of progression should be .

Masel · June 2018

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Have you looked at one of my builds for example? They're targeted to enable an easy entrance to trial content... @Alcast also has detailed guides to let newcomers understand the builds...

HHmmm... that comment alone makes me... err... erect my spine, as an argonian would say ?

Do you differentiate between newcomers, casual and non-competitive ?
The "class balance" per se concerns only maybe 10% of players. Those with a min/maxing, theorycrafting, competitive state of mind.
The rest of us don't choose race, class or skills because they're efficient or competitive. We choose them because they're fun, because of the lore, because of our intimate representation of our character, etc.
As such, we're not directly concerned by all this class-balance changes, but we're very concerned by the mess you're going to put with our playstyles.
We (I know I don't represent everyone but there's a lot of people I talk to who think like me, so let's say "we" for that sake) don't want to watch videos and we're not going to. Playing a video game should not require extra work outside of the game. We don't care about "progress", we don't want to learn (let alone re-learn !!) and we want (at least some) content to be "balanced" around us.

I am very concerned that your "representative" work will represent top players only, and push for more difficult content, whereas all we want is to "play how we want" and not be punished for it. Too many players want to play bow and have to give it up on their main bar because it's not valid for vet content.

Also please SIMPLIFY things !!! Instead of saying "go look at videos". At the moment nearly every skill tooltip reads like "IF your gear is pink, IF there are between 3 and 5 people in your group, IF you use a class ability within 2.43 seconds after having used a weapon ability, and IF your opponent is undead, you have a 43.8% chance of spawning something that will eventually deal AOE damage in a 16.4 meter range on a 6x4 area for 4.8 seconds with a cooldown of 8.7 seconds but can be shorter if you have animation cancelled before, IF the boss isn't immune and provided you're put at least 2 skill points in X and Y passives".
I'm being sarcastic here but that's sincerely how it sounds and looks for us people who enjoy PLAYING and not STUDYING.

I know you're not designing the skills, but please keep us in mind when selecting the feedback you're collecting, and also please take this concern over to ZOS. Thank you.

Masel92 wrote: »

I spent at least three hours this weekend (in my free time) to summarise the sorc feedback and transfer it over to the form that I implemented. I am currently doing the same for other classes. If that's not enough for you, then I don't know what else you expect us to do

Where's this summary ?
I think people don't want to have to look in dozens of different places to find your conclusions, and they also want to know what feedback you've selected for discussions with ZOS. In other words, not a bottom-up process but also a top-bottom one.

how does balance affect your playstyle? if you don't care about balancing and play the game for fun, then why are you concerned that achieving more balance will affect you? I for myself test all different playstyles and try to make them all as viable as possible. My goal is not contradicting yours in any kind of way...

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2018

MassPandemic wrote: »

I know i'm ranting here

Yes, you are ranting.
And you include in you rant every.single.assumption that makes me worried about having top players "balancing" the game.
Assumptions such as "VMA is easy", "even my GF and my son can play", "difficulty is good", "if I can, anyone can" or the eternal "all you have to do is... "
It shows your incapacity and unwillingness to put yourself in someone else's shoes who has different constraints, different goals and different sources of enjoyment in the game.

Masel92 wrote: »

how does balance affect your playstyle? if you don't care about balancing and play the game for fun, then why are you concerned that achieving more balance will affect you? I for myself test all different playstyles and try to make them all as viable as possible. My goal is not contradicting yours in any kind of way...

Just one example out of hundreds : resource management.
Just because the top 10% or even top 1% of players managed to play without having to boost or prioritize sustain and resource management, ZOS decided to nerf sustain, making it a real hurdle, chore and fun reduction for 100% of us.

(I know it wasn't your decision. I just use this as an example as to how balance is made for top players but affects everyone, most of us for the worst and not the better).

Don't get me wrong : I don't doubt your competence as a player, a theorycrafter, an expert, etc. I don't doubt your goodwill either, and I certainly do not underestimate the amount of work and time this "class rep duty" will mean to all of you.
BUT I doubt your willingness AND your ability to put yourself in the shoes of non-top players, to recognize and understand their concerns and issues, and to consider them just as valid as top players' concerns and issues.

ThePlayer · June 2018

In what guild they play? maybe i meet 1 or 2 of them in past.
They can add me in the friends list, sure they will be helpfull to get some achievements that still i miss

duendology · June 2018

Alcast wrote: »

duendology wrote: »

I am concerned that most of these class representatives will be more focused on end game content than on game in general.

From what I've seen most "veterans" who run these yotube/twitch/whatever channels forgot long time ago what it is like to be new to a game.

So, how do they represent players who are new and inexperienced or simply casual? My guts tell me they will represent themselves and people who frequent this forum.

I guess we'll wait and see.

My main goal in the rep program is to make the game easier accessible for new players (for all classes/setups) & Class Identity. However, keep in mind it is Wrobel we are talking about. So do not expect any changes at all.

I know @Alcast , I saw your name hence I said "most". I even told you a while ago you and Deltia are probably two of few who really take time to include gear suggestions for very beginners who didn't have chance to do group dungeons or trails for various reasons.

Joy_Division · June 2018

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Have you looked at one of my builds for example? They're targeted to enable an easy entrance to trial content... @Alcast also has detailed guides to let newcomers understand the builds...

HHmmm... that comment alone makes me... err... erect my spine, as an argonian would say ?

Do you differentiate between newcomers, casual and non-competitive ?
The "class balance" per se concerns only maybe 10% of players. Those with a min/maxing, theorycrafting, competitive state of mind.
The rest of us don't choose race, class or skills because they're efficient or competitive. We choose them because they're fun, because of the lore, because of our intimate representation of our character, etc.
As such, we're not directly concerned by all this class-balance changes, but we're very concerned by the mess you're going to put with our playstyles.
We (I know I don't represent everyone but there's a lot of people I talk to who think like me, so let's say "we" for that sake) don't want to watch videos and we're not going to. Playing a video game should not require extra work outside of the game. We don't care about "progress", we don't want to learn (let alone re-learn !!) and we want (at least some) content to be "balanced" around us.

I am very concerned that your "representative" work will represent top players only, and push for more difficult content, whereas all we want is to "play how we want" and not be punished for it. Too many players want to play bow and have to give it up on their main bar because it's not valid for vet content.

Also please SIMPLIFY things !!! Instead of saying "go look at videos". At the moment nearly every skill tooltip reads like "IF your gear is pink, IF there are between 3 and 5 people in your group, IF you use a class ability within 2.43 seconds after having used a weapon ability, and IF your opponent is undead, you have a 43.8% chance of spawning something that will eventually deal AOE damage in a 16.4 meter range on a 6x4 area for 4.8 seconds with a cooldown of 8.7 seconds but can be shorter if you have animation cancelled before, IF the boss isn't immune and provided you're put at least 2 skill points in X and Y passives".
I'm being sarcastic here but that's sincerely how it sounds and looks for us people who enjoy PLAYING and not STUDYING.

I know you're not designing the skills, but please keep us in mind when selecting the feedback you're collecting, and also please take this concern over to ZOS. Thank you.

Masel92 wrote: »

I spent at least three hours this weekend (in my free time) to summarise the sorc feedback and transfer it over to the form that I implemented. I am currently doing the same for other classes. If that's not enough for you, then I don't know what else you expect us to do

Where's this summary ?
I think people don't want to have to look in dozens of different places to find your conclusions, and they also want to know what feedback you've selected for discussions with ZOS. In other words, not a bottom-up process but also a top-bottom one.

OK, I'm a rep and I'm trying to understand what exactly your concerns are.

I pride myself on being able to comprehend other people's perspectives even if I don;t agree with them, but what you are writing here does not make sense to me. I understand your general point: class are going to push for changes that only tailor to their playstyle. But you offer no evidence that is that case (i.e. you simply assume that to be true) and you are attributing things to the people who are class reps that did not want and had nothing to do with.

How exactly has anything I have written in the past 4 years on these forums would have make a "mess with your playstyles? Everything I have written about Templars has asked ZoS to return to a time when just being a templar was easier, was simpler, would open up *more* playstyles, not mess them up. One of the main points Alcast is pushing for is to open up a healing skill early for the "stamina" playstyle so they don;t have to go PvP for weeks just to get one. I never asked for a "class ability within 2.43 seconds after having used a weapon ability, and IF your opponent is undead, you have a 43.8% chance of spawning something that will eventually deal AOE damage in a 16.4 meter range on a 6x4 area for 4.8 seconds with a cooldown of 8.7 seconds but can be shorter if you have animation cancelled before, IF the boss isn't immune and provided you're put at least 2 skill points in X and Y passives". Instead I asked for bugs to be fixed, stuff to be unnerfed and decoupled (i.e simplify things) from overly complex systems like the CP tree and gear setups, and more efficient/versatile class abilities such that it would not be strictly necessary to min max in order to both have fun and complete content.

Yes, we may suggest ZoS change some skills. should we say nothing and just allow bad, overly expensive, inefficient, overly complex abilities to exist in the game simply because you and other don;t want to re-learn them? How does that even make sense? If these skills weren't bad, then maybe those players who dropped bow could reequip it, yes?

The vast majority of players told ZoS the Morrowind changes to resource management was bad for the game and not enjoyable. We were *with* you on that aspect, *not* against. If ZoS made those changes because they feel mix-max players were making content too easy, how is that our fault?

What do you want us to do?

ZOS_GinaBruno · June 2018

Just want to remind everyone that not every single concern in regards to classes and class balance will be actioned on. The Class Reps are currently compiling some of the bigger concerns from the community to present to the Dev Team later this week, and we will then take that info into consideration when determining what (if anything) will be adjusted in the near or distant future. We also intend to post notes from the meeting on the forums shortly after it happens so everyone has visibility into what was discussed.

To reiterate: Not every class-related concern will be actioned upon, and any changes are ultimately the decision of the Dev Team.

Masel · June 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Have you looked at one of my builds for example? They're targeted to enable an easy entrance to trial content... @Alcast also has detailed guides to let newcomers understand the builds...

HHmmm... that comment alone makes me... err... erect my spine, as an argonian would say ?

Do you differentiate between newcomers, casual and non-competitive ?
The "class balance" per se concerns only maybe 10% of players. Those with a min/maxing, theorycrafting, competitive state of mind.
The rest of us don't choose race, class or skills because they're efficient or competitive. We choose them because they're fun, because of the lore, because of our intimate representation of our character, etc.
As such, we're not directly concerned by all this class-balance changes, but we're very concerned by the mess you're going to put with our playstyles.
We (I know I don't represent everyone but there's a lot of people I talk to who think like me, so let's say "we" for that sake) don't want to watch videos and we're not going to. Playing a video game should not require extra work outside of the game. We don't care about "progress", we don't want to learn (let alone re-learn !!) and we want (at least some) content to be "balanced" around us.

I am very concerned that your "representative" work will represent top players only, and push for more difficult content, whereas all we want is to "play how we want" and not be punished for it. Too many players want to play bow and have to give it up on their main bar because it's not valid for vet content.

Also please SIMPLIFY things !!! Instead of saying "go look at videos". At the moment nearly every skill tooltip reads like "IF your gear is pink, IF there are between 3 and 5 people in your group, IF you use a class ability within 2.43 seconds after having used a weapon ability, and IF your opponent is undead, you have a 43.8% chance of spawning something that will eventually deal AOE damage in a 16.4 meter range on a 6x4 area for 4.8 seconds with a cooldown of 8.7 seconds but can be shorter if you have animation cancelled before, IF the boss isn't immune and provided you're put at least 2 skill points in X and Y passives".
I'm being sarcastic here but that's sincerely how it sounds and looks for us people who enjoy PLAYING and not STUDYING.

I know you're not designing the skills, but please keep us in mind when selecting the feedback you're collecting, and also please take this concern over to ZOS. Thank you.

Masel92 wrote: »

I spent at least three hours this weekend (in my free time) to summarise the sorc feedback and transfer it over to the form that I implemented. I am currently doing the same for other classes. If that's not enough for you, then I don't know what else you expect us to do

Where's this summary ?
I think people don't want to have to look in dozens of different places to find your conclusions, and they also want to know what feedback you've selected for discussions with ZOS. In other words, not a bottom-up process but also a top-bottom one.

OK, I'm a rep and I'm trying to understand what exactly your concerns are.

I pride myself on being able to comprehend other people's perspectives even if I don;t agree with them, but what you are writing here does not make sense to me. I understand your general point: class are going to push for changes that only tailor to their playstyle. But you offer no evidence that is that case (i.e. you simply assume that to be true) and you are attributing things to the people who are class reps that did not want and had nothing to do with.

How exactly has anything I have written in the past 4 years on these forums would have make a "mess with your playstyles? Everything I have written about Templars has asked ZoS to return to a time when just being a templar was easier, was simpler, would open up *more* playstyles, not mess them up. One of the main points Alcast is pushing for is to open up a healing skill early for the "stamina" playstyle so they don;t have to go PvP for weeks just to get one. I never asked for a "class ability within 2.43 seconds after having used a weapon ability, and IF your opponent is undead, you have a 43.8% chance of spawning something that will eventually deal AOE damage in a 16.4 meter range on a 6x4 area for 4.8 seconds with a cooldown of 8.7 seconds but can be shorter if you have animation cancelled before, IF the boss isn't immune and provided you're put at least 2 skill points in X and Y passives". Instead I asked for bugs to be fixed, stuff to be unnerfed and decoupled (i.e simplify things) from overly complex systems like the CP tree and gear setups, and more efficient/versatile class abilities such that it would not be strictly necessary to min max in order to both have fun and complete content.

Yes, we may suggest ZoS change some skills. should we say nothing and just allow bad, overly expensive, inefficient, overly complex abilities to exist in the game simply because you and other don;t want to re-learn them? How does that even make sense? If these skills weren't bad, then maybe those players who dropped bow could reequip it, yes?

The vast majority of players told ZoS the Morrowind changes to resource management was bad for the game and not enjoyable. We were *with* you on that aspect, *not* against. If ZoS made those changes because they feel mix-max players were making content too easy, how is that our fault?

What do you want us to do?

Fully Agreed.

zParallaxz · June 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just want to remind everyone that not every single concern in regards to classes and class balance will be actioned on. The Class Reps are currently compiling some of the bigger concerns from the community to present to the Dev Team later this week, and we will then take that info into consideration when determining what (if anything) will be adjusted in the near or distant future. We also intend to post notes from the meeting on the forums shortly after it happens so everyone has visibility into what was discussed.

To reiterate: Not every class-related concern will be actioned upon, and any changes are ultimately the decision of the Dev Team.

Will the notes include what actions you are looking to implement or improve upon after you take the data from the class reps? Just in case you didn’t know, that’s what a majority of players are looking for. Thank you for your time and patience.

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

I understand your general point: class are going to push for changes that only tailor to their playstyle.

My concern is more like "good players are going to push for changes that are good only for good players". Because all the reps are good players. Now I understand that reps need to have an expertise and that all expert players are good players. That doesn't change my concern though.

I also want to clarify that I don't hold you (the reps in generally or personnally) responsible for the current situation. I don't blame anyone. I just take the situation as it is... and fear it might get worse. Whether it's ZOS' fault, Wrobel's fault, Lambert's fault, the good players' fault or my cat's fault isn't relevant. All I see is that the attempts to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling" have failed quite miserably. Same goes for the complexity of skills, if you've advocated before for their simplification, then thank you and please continue to do so. If I gave the impression that I made you (the reps) responsible for the current situation, then I apologize, it wasn't my intention. But admittedly I'm fed up with all the "L2P" attitudes.

I've quickly drawn something to make myself clear (if possible)

The blue line is what (I feel) ESO currently is in terme of player experience, the green line is how I feel it should be, ideally.

What I fear is that the ongoing "balance" will focus only on issues identified by people belonging to the rectangle I've outlined on the right side of the "graph". And that it will provide solutions only relevant to people belonging to that zone, ignoring the rest. Or worse, making the situation of the rest of the playerbase (everything left of that rectangle) even worse.

Joy_Division wrote: »

What do you want us to do?

If possible, to keep everyone in mind when selecting problems and suggesting solutions, not only the ones in the rectangle. And to push for a design that would lead us more to the green curve and away from the blue curve.

I'm aware that my request is more a general difficulty balance issue than a class balance per se, but I think it's part of it.

Thank you for reading :-)

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To reiterate: Not every class-related concern will be actioned upon, and any changes are ultimately the decision of the Dev Team.

We will jump at the reps' throats anyway, Gina

King_Thelon · June 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To reiterate: Not every class-related concern will be actioned upon, and any changes are ultimately the decision of the Dev Team.

The same dev team that let sloads hit live, despite thousands of comments in the PTS feedback?

technohic · June 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just want to remind everyone that not every single concern in regards to classes and class balance will be actioned on. The Class Reps are currently compiling some of the bigger concerns from the community to present to the Dev Team later this week, and we will then take that info into consideration when determining what (if anything) will be adjusted in the near or distant future. We also intend to post notes from the meeting on the forums shortly after it happens so everyone has visibility into what was discussed.

To reiterate: Not every class-related concern will be actioned upon, and any changes are ultimately the decision of the Dev Team.

Think we should figure that out by the “just your 2 top pain points” stipulation.

FWIW; any rational person would not except everything to be addressed right away or ever. Just a simple acknowledgement that issues are seen and truly understood and not just swept under the rug and ignored would be better than nothing

Joy_Division · June 2018

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I understand your general point: class are going to push for changes that only tailor to their playstyle.

My concern is more like "good players are going to push for changes that are good only for good players". Because all the reps are good players. Now I understand that reps need to have an expertise and that all expert players are good players. That doesn't change my concern though.

I also want to clarify that I don't hold you (the reps in generally or personnally) responsible for the current situation. I don't blame anyone. I just take the situation as it is... and fear it might get worse. Whether it's ZOS' fault, Wrobel's fault, Lambert's fault, the good players' fault or my cat's fault isn't relevant. All I see is that the attempts to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling" have failed quite miserably. Same goes for the complexity of skills, if you've advocated before for their simplification, then thank you and please continue to do so. If I gave the impression that I made you (the reps) responsible for the current situation, then I apologize, it wasn't my intention. But admittedly I'm fed up with all the "L2P" attitudes.

I've quickly drawn something to make myself clear (if possible)

The blue line is what (I feel) ESO currently is in terme of player experience, the green line is how I feel it should be, ideally.

What I fear is that the ongoing "balance" will focus only on issues identified by people belonging to the rectangle I've outlined on the right side of the "graph". And that it will provide solutions only relevant to people belonging to that zone, ignoring the rest. Or worse, making the situation of the rest of the playerbase (everything left of that rectangle) even worse.

Joy_Division wrote: »

What do you want us to do?

If possible, to keep everyone in mind when selecting problems and suggesting solutions, not only the ones in the rectangle. And to push for a design that would lead us more to the green curve and away from the blue curve.

I'm aware that my request is more a general difficulty balance issue than a class balance per se, but I think it's part of it.

Thank you for reading :-)

No doubt there are "good players are going to push for changes that are good only for good players." I am not one. That's why some people nominated me. That's a big reason why ZOS choose me. I wrote my vMA guide for beginners, not experts.

I have to say most of the concerns I have are to the left of the rectangle. I don't put much stock into the fancy-pancy super-duper complicated build a Warden could use to overcome the lack of a stun and be arguable better (i.e. your right part of the rectangle), than I do getting back to basics: a stun is more helpful for the class and the left part of the rectangle.

From my interaction with the other reps, they are also mindful and want to improve what's going on left of the rectangle. that's was a big part of the reason why ZOS selected us: we aren't just concerned with min-max gameplay.

If you have concerns about the game and classes to the left of that rectangle, tell us. It's valid feedback and stuff that ought to be considered.

swirve · June 2018

Contraptions wrote: »

Let's hope these people can be objective and impartial regarding class balance. Often when such "player rep" programs are done it inevitably leads to politics and people trying to favour their own class over others.

We'll see.

Yup and in one of them it seems to be reps opinion or his leet friends or the highway...

The channel namea are distinctly loaded to a biased view point

ZOS_JesC · June 2018

Greetings, we've removed several comments that were baiting/derailing in nature. This is a reminder to keep comments on topic with the thread and make sure they don't derail into an argument. While we understand that not everyone will always agree, conversations will remain civil and constructive or actions will be taken against forum accounts. In the event that you see a post that you believe may conflict with our forum rules, we encourage you to flag it for moderator review instead of engaging with that individual. Thank you for your understanding.

WeylandLabs · June 2018

I just want to know who had over 1000 days played I'm on console and have over 350 days on 1 class. 1000 is tops anything I have ever known in gaming and I'm in my 30s

Play for 16 hours sleep for 1000 days straight, I don't know if I should commend that person or feel sorry that "Vlad the Impaler" has a new right hand man.

wozborne · June 2018

All PC players, some of which are exploiters, good to know ZoS cares even less about us console players then I originally thought. But you know, why would you care about 2/3rds of your playerbase amirite?

Integral1900 · June 2018

Welcome to yet more light attack meta.... groan, yawn, snore

To be honest it’s because you reps worry us...

Let’s talk psychology, most players find a play style they like and they will normaly either stick with it or leave. I like to be realy resilient and to do big chunks of of damage in a measured way, hence I love two handed heavy attacks combined with wrecking blow, not because it’s the best damage (although it used to do loads more before they nerfed it into the ground with that stupid empower change) but because it looks and sounds amazing. I find fast paced attack rotations boring and lacking in intensity

Personally I don’t get the endgame brigades obsession with light attacks when the heavy ones look so much cooler, also the vast majority of players are the same, don’t believe me? Go pick a dungeon at random, normal or vet, and what you will see is mostly heavy attacks, regardless of any nerfs that are made by ZOS. Most players never read the patch notes anyway. The meta, the elite, whatever they are... they are hopelessly out of touch with the bulk of the player base.

The forums jumped down their throats because what we see is a bunch of elite players, therefore the logical conclusion is we will get more light attack based, button mashing frenzy combat. If I wanted that I’d go play street fighter! I want grandeur, power, I want to be a force of nature. My stam dk used to be that...

Lark82 · June 2018

Please... Just give these Class Reps a chance before ripping them to bits.
From what I can see they have all taken on one hell of a lot of work, work they will not be paid for.
It will be impossible to please everyone but if it helps to improve the game that we all love, even just a bit, we should be supportive!

swirve · June 2018

Lark82 wrote: »

Please... Just give these Class Reps a chance before ripping them to bits.
From what I can see they have all taken on one hell of a lot of work, work they will not be paid for.
It will be impossible to please everyone but if it helps to improve the game that we all love, even just a bit, we should be supportive!

Ive not been impressed thus far, though need to check other channels...

duendology · June 2018

Lark82 wrote: »

Please... Just give these Class Reps a chance before ripping them to bits.
From what I can see they have all taken on one hell of a lot of work, work they will not be paid for.
It will be impossible to please everyone but if it helps to improve the game that we all love, even just a bit, we should be supportive!

I agree.

Masel · June 2018

Lark82 wrote: »

Please... Just give these Class Reps a chance before ripping them to bits.
From what I can see they have all taken on one hell of a lot of work, work they will not be paid for.
It will be impossible to please everyone but if it helps to improve the game that we all love, even just a bit, we should be supportive!

Thank you Lark

Masel · June 2018

Integral1900 wrote: »

Welcome to yet more light attack meta.... groan, yawn, snore

To be honest it’s because you reps worry us...

Let’s talk psychology, most players find a play style they like and they will normaly either stick with it or leave. I like to be realy resilient and to do big chunks of of damage in a measured way, hence I love two handed heavy attacks combined with wrecking blow, not because it’s the best damage (although it used to do loads more before they nerfed it into the ground with that stupid empower change) but because it looks and sounds amazing. I find fast paced attack rotations boring and lacking in intensity

Personally I don’t get the endgame brigades obsession with light attacks when the heavy ones look so much cooler, also the vast majority of players are the same, don’t believe me? Go pick a dungeon at random, normal or vet, and what you will see is mostly heavy attacks, regardless of any nerfs that are made by ZOS. Most players never read the patch notes anyway. The meta, the elite, whatever they are... they are hopelessly out of touch with the bulk of the player base.

The forums jumped down their throats because what we see is a bunch of elite players, therefore the logical conclusion is we will get more light attack based, button mashing frenzy combat. If I wanted that I’d go play street fighter! I want grandeur, power, I want to be a force of nature. My stam dk used to be that...

Look at my builds for summerset, half of them are heavy attack focused

Think twice before you call people "elite". You can still do more than enough damage with heavy attack builds, but because light attack builds are more difficult to play, they should yield a higher reward, doesn't that make sense?

Rickter · June 2018

I just felt the necessity to post this in the Dragonknight Discord because the dissension started creeping in and it honestly applies to everyone out there. . .

I understand that you are concerned that more casual oriented players will be thrust to the wayside, or the game will be influenced at the 1% level and inherently hurt the less competitive playerbase which are the majority. I get that, man. And its a noble concern However, the way youre approaching this is all wrong. Trust me, I know.
It appears that youve taken a contrary position, for the sake of being contrary.

Meaning: youre mind is already made up about this program. You are convinced this is a bad idea and your confirmation bias viewpoint looks for ways to support your conclusion.

I encourage you to be more open minded and put your faith into those chosen for this program. They most definitely have the community's interest in mind. Proof of that is the fact that you and me and everyone else here are in this Discord. You have to understand that this "council" (for lack of a better term) could have kept to themselves and engaged ZOS privately as ZOS essentially set that very thing up. But they didnt - they brought the entire community in, and have been soaking up our feedback like a sponge. In this discord you can see pinned messages of feedback used to approach ZOS this week. They didnt have to do that.

Be constructive, because if you dont, you'll just be dismissed. This isnt official forums safe space - this is community driven 100% and you have to sink or swim.

But let's put this in perspective some more: The purpose of the Class Rep Program, is to advise ZOS on ways that the community feels could improve gameplay, and balance the game by tackling pain points.

Where do you think those pain points are most prevalent? over world questing or casual normal mode trials?

No, they are experienced at competitive levels, where players are pushing these classes to their limits and thus, deficiencies start popping up. So yes, a lot of these discord discussions are going to err in that direction. I suggest you take this wonderful opportunity and LEARN there is a totally different game out there if you put in the time and knowledge.
and thats all i wanted to say
thank you