DK Bash nerf for PVE is unacceptable

Ruddertail · May 2014

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Ruddertail wrote: »

Hello there. DKs are not the only tanks in the game. Nor is Sword and Shield even remotely close to being the only way to tank.

I am not a DK. And I would like to see your alternative to a tank.

A sorcerer using lightning form. Add bound armor if you want. Self-heals are nice too. It's not that hard to tank in this game.

nez · May 2014

Gaudrath wrote: »

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Gaudrath wrote: »

Then use one of those big weapons. Or maybe two weapons!

Oh, you want to tank? Well, then tank. Why, as a tank, are you concerned with your DPS? Because that's the only thing that got changed with the Shield Bash.

Remember that comment when you stand for hours and cant find tanks for your dungeons or trials because they cant level. Then I am sure someone will tell you to L2P without tanks.

They can't level? Then how did I level? I have zero points in S&B, holy mother of... someone superglued their skills to the bar so they can't use anything else?

SB is an INTERRUPT. It's used to INTERRUPT. Not spam-bash your way to glory. It could be doing zero DPS and it would still serve its purpose as an...

...wait for it...

INTERRUPT

marry me

Dymence · May 2014

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I don't get this thread at all. So what if a light attack now deals more damage than a shield bash? Do you people not have at least a slight sense of realism? I know we're playing a fantasy game, but man....

Stop and think for a second. What's going to hurt more, getting cut by a sword or bashed by a shield?

Yeah... that's what I thought.

If you got a slight sense of realism, all magicka based skills would be removed right away. Not to mention vamps and WW.

That's why I said "I know we're playing a fantasy game...". Weapons have nothing to do with magic however and should function by logical standards.

ShintaiDK · May 2014

Dymence wrote: »

That's why I said "I know we're playing a fantasy game...". Weapons have nothing to do with magic however and should function by logical standards.

In that case shield+x should be the absolute best as history have shown.

Gravord · May 2014

Good move with fixing bash, keep up good work.

captain_awesome · May 2014

Gravord wrote: »

Good move with fixing bash, keep up good work.

You win this thread.
+1

charley222 · May 2014

any one like too be NERFED but
is need too be honest Shield Charge + spaming shield Bash are very op
and dont need to be very skillful , now you just have too mix more using
Puncture reduces target's armor and spell resistance by 40% for 12 seconds and use Ardent Flame skill , the shield dk is still very good
but i hope the Sorcerer Teleport spamer will be NERFED is just no sence looking the sorcerer spaming 10 to 15 time teleport

ShintaiDK · May 2014

My shield bash for my templar is 72dmg without the passives. And 102 with the +100% passives.

Maverick827 · May 2014

Any intelligent person will notice everyone on the pro-shield bash side of the debate is posting with rationality and respect, and everyone on the anti-shielr bash side is posting vitriol and trolling.

In my experiences, the latter group is typically incorrect.

Covyn · May 2014

There are DK's still using Shields? Odd.....

/em Twirls his Destro staff and solo's another public dungeon in Craglorn.

Tankqull · May 2014

Dymence wrote: »

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I don't get this thread at all. So what if a light attack now deals more damage than a shield bash? Do you people not have at least a slight sense of realism? I know we're playing a fantasy game, but man....

Stop and think for a second. What's going to hurt more, getting cut by a sword or bashed by a shield?

Yeah... that's what I thought.

If you got a slight sense of realism, all magicka based skills would be removed right away. Not to mention vamps and WW.

That's why I said "I know we're playing a fantasy game...". Weapons have nothing to do with magic however and should function by logical standards.

i would actually suppose you participate in some LARP activity to realize how shield can be used as a weapon and is not only dead wood on your shield arm ...

Dymence · May 2014

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

That's why I said "I know we're playing a fantasy game...". Weapons have nothing to do with magic however and should function by logical standards.

In that case shield+x should be the absolute best as history have shown.

Yes, I agree that shield+x should be better than it is currently in the game, but I don't think historical fighters spent their time bashing people to death with their shields because shields inflicted more damage to their opponents than their sword.

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I don't get this thread at all. So what if a light attack now deals more damage than a shield bash? Do you people not have at least a slight sense of realism? I know we're playing a fantasy game, but man....

Stop and think for a second. What's going to hurt more, getting cut by a sword or bashed by a shield?

Yeah... that's what I thought.

If you got a slight sense of realism, all magicka based skills would be removed right away. Not to mention vamps and WW.

That's why I said "I know we're playing a fantasy game...". Weapons have nothing to do with magic however and should function by logical standards.

i would actually suppose you participate in some LARP activity to realize how shield can be used as a weapon and is not only dead wood on your shield arm ...

Just as I said earlier in the post, yes it doesn't have ot be dead wood on your shield arm, but it shouldn't be more viable than your actual blade. And it isn't dead wood on your arm is it? It deals more damage now when you actually interrupt casting.

IIxGH0STxII · May 2014

Tanthul wrote: »

So you all think there was nothing wrong with doing more DPS than anything else in the game while not taking any damage at all? 1H and Shield is a defensive line. It should not do the amounts of damage it did. You are either supposed to tank or do damage. Not do both at the same time and better than anything else available while not even needing a skill slot..
So you just have to play normally now. Like everyone else. Either build as a tank and rely to others for damage output, build as a damage dealer, build one spec of each, or build a hybrid. Want to do heaps of damage to groups? Use destro staff or 2handed with class synergies. Want hybrid? Use something like resto staff with class skills. Use synergies. Most of you were so used to kill everything with the broken bash damage while taking no damage that you can't think of anything else. Well it was never supposed to be that way..Everyone else in the game not using the broken shield bash spam was experiencing the game you are experiencing now. Everyone knew bash damage would be fixed. It was at the top of the "broken" list. And I won't even mention the casting while bashing exploits...

^This

Neoklis wrote: »

Zarkaz wrote: »

Oh poor DeeKays, can't spam your way to glory now ? Good.

oh you mean no one else spams skills? Templars have that sun lance skills (w/e it's called) sorcerers spam AoEs how is one spam diff from other?
But that's not my point.. This so called "Elder Scrolls" Online, should of never been released at the time that it did. If all the skills are getting "fixed" now, they were that way in beta, no? Yes, hence why weren't they fixed before launch.
I've said this in a diff post, skill is used in a way it wasn't intended to in PvP? Adjust it in PvP not PvE, stop taking the easy way out and stop "fixing" skills in one single sweep b/c it's quicker or easier or w/e. Other games can separate the two, so should you be able to and if you are not maybe it's time to hire someone that can. I had a 90 recurring sub, just cancelled it, to show my disappointment with games current state. I hope the game will be fixed and soon.

You really think an MMO can be perfect at release? You're so wrong. It's absolutely normal that classes get balanced over time, while people play them. Same thing happens with other online games.
And I agree with what some other users said: If you play a tank with 1hand and shield, it should be normal that you won't do as much damage as a DPS. If you want to do damage, skill a second weapon line and use that. That's what the second weapon slot and ability bar is for. I feel sorry for you, if you can't play the game without exploiting a broken ability.

Still_Mind · May 2014

Covyn wrote: »

There are DK's still using Shields? Odd.....

/em Twirls his Destro staff and solo's another public dungeon in Craglorn.

Pretty much. Not even using melee weapons in VR content, on both, NB and the fresh VR2 DK alt.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · May 2014

consider the fact that you build almost exlusive survivability by going sword/board - consider grabbing a hotswap for solo leveling, a healing staff would be great if you favor sustained long fights and surviving a beating, a 2h weapon if you want to hit things close and personal. Also if you're smart as a tank and don't become a vampire you can spend enchants on + weapon damage and go with a set like hunding's rage which would make your active abilities with sword/board do a lot of damage with stamina investment that is vital as a tank.

TLDR: BUILD SOME SUPPLEMENTARY DAMAGE IF YOU WANT TO DO DAMAGE AS A TANK

Calgrissom · May 2014

I love that my V10 Full legendary max 1h shield tank now does 103 damage with bash. O and the "Extra damage on interrupt hit" Is 10% lol. That's for completely screwing 1h shield users in this patch. the entire line is next to worthless now as its damage was at best 1/3 of any other weapon type to begin with without bash.

Maverick827 · May 2014

IIxGH0STxII wrote: »

Tanthul wrote: »

So you all think there was nothing wrong with doing more DPS than anything else in the game while not taking any damage at all? 1H and Shield is a defensive line. It should not do the amounts of damage it did. You are either supposed to tank or do damage. Not do both at the same time and better than anything else available while not even needing a skill slot..
So you just have to play normally now. Like everyone else. Either build as a tank and rely to others for damage output, build as a damage dealer, build one spec of each, or build a hybrid. Want to do heaps of damage to groups? Use destro staff or 2handed with class synergies. Want hybrid? Use something like resto staff with class skills. Use synergies. Most of you were so used to kill everything with the broken bash damage while taking no damage that you can't think of anything else. Well it was never supposed to be that way..Everyone else in the game not using the broken shield bash spam was experiencing the game you are experiencing now. Everyone knew bash damage would be fixed. It was at the top of the "broken" list. And I won't even mention the casting while bashing exploits...

^This

Neoklis wrote: »

Zarkaz wrote: »

Oh poor DeeKays, can't spam your way to glory now ? Good.

oh you mean no one else spams skills? Templars have that sun lance skills (w/e it's called) sorcerers spam AoEs how is one spam diff from other?
But that's not my point.. This so called "Elder Scrolls" Online, should of never been released at the time that it did. If all the skills are getting "fixed" now, they were that way in beta, no? Yes, hence why weren't they fixed before launch.
I've said this in a diff post, skill is used in a way it wasn't intended to in PvP? Adjust it in PvP not PvE, stop taking the easy way out and stop "fixing" skills in one single sweep b/c it's quicker or easier or w/e. Other games can separate the two, so should you be able to and if you are not maybe it's time to hire someone that can. I had a 90 recurring sub, just cancelled it, to show my disappointment with games current state. I hope the game will be fixed and soon.

You really think an MMO can be perfect at release? You're so wrong. It's absolutely normal that classes get balanced over time, while people play them. Same thing happens with other online games.
And I agree with what some other users said: If you play a tank with 1hand and shield, it should be normal that you won't do as much damage as a DPS. If you want to do damage, skill a second weapon line and use that. That's what the second weapon slot and ability bar is for. I feel sorry for you, if you can't play the game without exploiting a broken ability.

I feel sorry for you if you think using an ability that does damage and has a dedicated skill and dedicated enchant that increases its damage is exploiting.

Drachdhar · May 2014

The S&B bash nerf affects all users, not just DKs. And yeh, I agree that it should be nerfed in pvp at least. PvP was filled with two types of weapons users basically - Impulse spam and Bash spam.

The real problems was not those things though, the real problem is that no other weapon skill line provides a damn thing of equal viability since they all hit like the equivalent of a wet sock - except for bow, its pretty decent for one target dmg.

As for PvE, well now Bashers are as useless as every other weapon skill line.

yodased · May 2014

So confused by this. Lets get some things strait.

1. There are no class based stamina skills.
all class skills are magic based

2. There are no weapon based magic skills
all weapon skills are stamina based

This fix to the class did this:

When using 'bash' as a DPS it does 50% the damage pre patch.
My VR1 DK now does 81 dmg from a light attack and 81 dmg from a bash

When using 'bash' as an interrupt I do 231 dmg which is over 200% increase from non interrupt.

Using bash as DPS is lazy mode. Simple to use DK as fire damage dealer and CC tank.

Meatshield never was intended to be made in this game anyway, its about mitigation, movement and crowd control.

Gaudrath · May 2014

Drachdhar wrote: »

The real problems was not those things though, the real problem is that no other weapon skill line provides a damn thing of equal viability since they all hit like the equivalent of a wet sock - except for bow, its pretty decent for one target dmg.

My wet sock must be filled with bricks then.

The real problem is that players got used to abusing a broken skill/mechanic and now think that the game is supposed to be like that.

It is not. But honestly, did anyone really believe DPS via one skill, a shield at that, was intended? Anyone who spammed it, abused a bug. An obvious bug at that. And now that it got fixed, they complain. Nice.

Tankqull · May 2014

Dymence wrote: »

Just as I said earlier in the post, yes it doesn't have ot be dead wood on your shield arm, but it shouldn't be more viable than your actual blade. And it isn't dead wood on your arm is it? It deals more damage now when you actually interrupt casting.

ok lets count the number of spells in this game, DK none, NB none, sorc 1 if its not proced to be instant, templar 1heal and 1dmg ability if not specced to be instant and an ultimate wich because of rupt is hardly used. hmm great options to be used...
and once per fight versus mobs.

well s&b is dead no dmg and arround 10-15points higher dmg mitigation while blocking compared to other weaponline blocks. with that change it´ll be very hard to find tanks in the future...

MrBeatDown · May 2014

This is the only game ive ever played that has destroyed the Role playing of being a Knight. A Knight is supposed to be a badass with a Sword and a Shield. A sorc is supposed to be a Badass ranged caster. For some reason Zenimax has decided that Those concepts that Many Many Many people Approve of are not allowed in this game. They want you to play some Hybrid ranbow casting meat shield tank that does no Dps. I picked a Dragon Knight so I could be a badass with my sword and shield. I am Naturaly Pi$$ed off about there decision to completely nerf the Knight.

Drachdhar · May 2014

Adding to the close to uselessness of weapon skills in this game is the many uses for stamina. Move faster, consumes stamina... Dodge, consumes stamina... Block, consumes stamina... And weapon skills are usually very heavy in the cost department which leaves you very little stamina for dodging massive AOE attacks, breaking stuns etc.
Think that was my main issue with other weapon skill lines. Bashing *** to death at least left you some stamina for doing other things unlike say 2h weapon.

xiamorab16_ESO · May 2014

I think you haven't been in the game. Bash deals about 50% less damage now when you actually interrupt the target, when you simply hit the target with it it deals about 75% less damage.

"Bashing now deals more damage on a successful interrupt, and less damage when your target is not casting an ability.

Fixed an issue where bash/interrupt could be used more frequently than intended when it was repeatedly engaged.

Deadly Bash. Fixed an issue where the damage bonus coupled with a “bashing” jewelry enchant was doing too much damage.Slightly decreased this ability’s stamina cost reduction."
They did a bit more than change the glyphs.[/quote]

Nail on the head for this guy. I have an addon that tracks the damage i do, a normal bash was ~243, now its 95. I dont use any jewelry either. An interupt has dropped to ~143. As someone who enjoyed the rare chance to be able to level as sword and board without every mob taking a year to kill, im a bit dissapointed that my main damage source is gone. As others have said, DK's lack the aoe damage of some of the other classes, so survivability, defensive abilities, coupled with a dot and an armour reduction, where the way i found to grind down those packs of VR mobs / VR boss mobs. Now that is impossible. Packs of 3 normal mobs are now fatal with my build. The only fix i can think of is dropping my stamina points into magic and completely changing my build to another weapon, which will take forever to level up. Not to mention, i enjoyed my former playstyle. I see sorcerers bolt into a pack, throw out a ton of aoe and the whole pack is dead in the time it takes me to shield charge. I dont understand why they would make changes to deter people from 1h/shield spec. Many tanks will reroll. Groups were waiting long enough as it was for a tank to join.

Darkro · May 2014

sorry
still killing 10 monsters at a time (and I hear they got double hp and dmg now) and no problem, so I smell baddie.

Sheerin · May 2014

davidafox79_ESO wrote: »

A 1 hand weapon does HARDLY any damage. I wouldn't care about bash if I could hit a mob and see it's health move. The magic and stamina skills don't do enough damage to kill multiple mobs. I don't care about PVP. I want to be able to come home from 9.5 hours of work and enjoy playing a game. I don't have time to research all this stuff you guys talk about because I do other things than play too. I was blindsided by this update. Tanking is what I enjoy and now that has been taken from me. If I wanted to do a DPS class I would have rolled a mage or nightblade dual wield.

Exactly my sentiment, this change coupled with the increase in mob difficulty made playing practically impossible for me. Ill probably have to rethink why whole character now if im to play solo.
Group content isnt affected much, its mostly solo pve thats completely crap now.

Drachdhar · May 2014

So many people that are wrong here...

DK is probably the best at AOE of all the classes. For example its the class with the most viable AOE skills. That is a simple truth.
Nightblades literally have no decent AOE skills.
Sorcs have what? Daedric Mines? Lightning Form and Lightning Splash?
No idea what tempies bring though, not played one since the game went live...

Sorcs generally use Destro staffs for AOE, same with Nightblades. But with the Impulse cost increase it is likely that they will suffer a bit.

yodased wrote: »

So confused by this. Lets get some things strait.

2. There are no weapon based magic skills
all weapon skills are stamina based

And yes, THERE ARE WEAPON SKILLS WHICH RELY ON MAGICKA!! These are called Destruction Staff and Restoration Staff. So which game have you been playing.

And when comparing weapon skills to the equivalent of a wet sock... Compared to how much they cost to use in veteran content they are like wet socks. Some 300-500 stamina for 300 dmg on mobs that have over 2k health...

yodased · May 2014

oh come on, destruction and resto staffs are not "weapons" I don't know of any destro/resto person that is actually using them to auto-attack as a viable way to kill things.

Maverick827 · May 2014

Darkro wrote: »

sorry
still killing 10 monsters at a time (and I hear they got double hp and dmg now) and no problem, so I smell baddie.

I smell troll.

Ffolks · May 2014

Cogo wrote: »

Ffolks wrote: »

I'm just amazed that people cried nerf over bash, a single target ability, when there's people running around in light armor and a staff taking down groups of 6+ V11 mobs in Craglorn. On my NB I'm having difficulty now taking down a group of two V10s and prior to the patch I could handle 3 max, and I never stacked bash buffs either.

I could change I suppose, and jump on the staff bandwagon, put I chose sword and shield in beta because I liked the aesthetic and it was viable. It's not now and I'm discouraged from playing. I can no longer play *my* way.

They should have compensated for the lost DPS in another ability in the sword and shield line.

No longer having fun.

Finaly! Someone who express a concern with a point.

Can I ask you, do you see 1H and shield as a one of the bigger damage dealing abilities? For me 1h and shield is about the shield. Block is pretty damn good.....no one here mentions that, hehe.

If 1H and shield did as much damage as lets say 2H and mage staff.....wouldnt everyone run around with 1H and shield cause you do good damage and can protect yourself very well. (I am only a tank and I think the block is a biiiit to good. I can block a fireball lol)

Shouldnt it be some kind of balance? You choose some damage and safty in a shield, but you want to do damage as everyone else? Do I understand you correctly. Feel free to correct me if I understood you wrong.

Finaly someone who seams to not like the patch and can talk about it!

I fully understand the reason for the nerf. It would be nice if people attempted to understand that not everyone using sword and shield was doing so because of the bash DPS.

Take away the tank aspects of using a shield from the sword and shield line and add them as a passive in the armors line and give the shield the same dps as say, an off hand dagger. Or maybe have separate morphs in the sword and shield line for dpsing or tanking in relation to the shield abilities.

I want to be a melee dpser with a sword and shield. That's the class I envisioned and how I've been playing since betas.