DK Bash nerf for PVE is unacceptable

thelg

Real problem is that melee is really bad, bash spam made melee good. 2h is a joke, dual wield is somewhat better but still terrible.

Simple fix would probably be to just half stamina costs of melee styles, because right now using them is a suicide. Crap damage for a large cost

Xnemesis

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

Exactly which nerf? The one to the Deadly Bash passive? That only corrected improper contribution from +bash damage enchants.

Somehow I managed so survive today, after the patch, with my 1h/shield setup. Did it occur to you that your shield wasn't supposed to be a major source of dps? Bash is there for the interrupt... and I suppose you could use it to dump stamina... but you have other skills that are better for that.

The argument about how much damage your 1h weapon does is quite a different issue... and one I agree should be addressed.

Please tell me which DK Class skill line is Stamina base? If you don't know what you are talking about please STFU. In case you are wondering Draconic Power, Ardent Flame, and Earthen Heart are all magicka based.

Emencie wrote: »

I think you haven't been in the game. Bash deals about 50% less damage now when you actually interrupt the target, when you simply hit the target with it it deals about 75% less damage.

"Bashing now deals more damage on a successful interrupt, and less damage when your target is not casting an ability.

Fixed an issue where bash/interrupt could be used more frequently than intended when it was repeatedly engaged.

Deadly Bash. Fixed an issue where the damage bonus coupled with a “bashing” jewelry enchant was doing too much damage.Slightly decreased this ability’s stamina cost reduction."
They did a bit more than change the glyphs.

Spot on. Also while testing it earlier today I noticed that the stamina cost has increased and not decreased as they claim. Used to cost 4-5% to use, not its 8-10%. Besides nerfing the damage to *** on it they doubled its cost.

Umm a reduction to an abilitys cost reduction would mean an increase in cost its a simple double negative At first glance though I can see where the confusion could occur.

Mykah

davidafox79_ESO wrote: »

Mykah wrote: »

I'm still leveling my NB, he's vr5 now and doing just fine. I've used 2h as his main weapon his entire life.

The DK qq saying the Bash fix gimped them, please, learn to play. You have a long way to go, its not the game's fault, really.

I am dying to 3 mobs every time now. I never died before so I was gimped to some extent right?

No, you were crutching on a broken mechanic and never learned how to play well. Did you know you can hold block and still use instant attacks?

joshisanonymous

@Lovely‌

Lovely wrote: »

Templar tank here. VR4, bash was doing 225-240 dmg with Ransack. OP?

People seem to think that bash didn't need to do damage since it's an interrupt. But this game has very few active abilities so they need to bake crowd control with damage dealing abilities and interrupts and so on.

Also, I don't see anything wrong in seeing the shield as the damage source. In other games, by having a shield you trade damage for survivability, but the shield here brings nothing to the table. It's less armour than a glove, what is its point if not to do some damage?

Well, it may increase your armor rating less than a glove, but you also have a glove on already. But even if it increased your armor by zero, you're still overlooking that it's part of an entire skill line. It provides access to active defensive skills and even the passives alone increase your defensive ability enough to make it worth it for tanking. I very rarely try to block as a DW NB because even basic attacks from mobs will still do entirely too much damage to make it worth it. However, using shield means that you can essentially block forever, you'll move faster while doing it, and the mitigation from block is considerably better.

Shield most definitely brngs something to the table other than the damage that it used to do. The whole issue in the first place was that it was way too good of a defensive tool to be doing that much damage. If it had no defensive benefits, no one would've cared that it did good damage.

Tannakaobi

Bash was broken now it's fixed. You are moaning that you can't take advantage of this. You can no longer exploit.

davidafox79_ESO

Is it just me or does it pis$ you off when people insinuate you don't know how to play. This is my 2nd mmo wow being the other. I know how to play games but my real life doesn't allow me to research on a leisure activity such as a video game. I'm not a moron but yeah I got used to something I was enjoying and now I die way too much to make this game fun. Again I'm not hard core and those of you who live on monsters and cheetos and live with mommy and daddy who say I didn't learn how to play don't realize I have 1 hour a day to play normally so this game was my cross eyed and drooling get my mind off of life Avenue. Thanks to everyone who is helping me with advice.

Aimelin

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

Drachdhar wrote: »

Btw.. Sorc as a class do not have alot of AOE, especially not good AOE.

Top players in my campaign are not sorcs... The player who has 2 million more points than the second place is a DK. Granted, those extra points are due to him farming points as emperor.

well DK AP numbers are highly inflated by the fact that they combined 90% of the formerly uncapped AOEs in this one class and thus making them much stronger than anyone else in AvA. if the meta is´nt changed heavily the next campain phase will see 80-90% sorcs within the top 100 broken up by a few healing templars, dedicated solo NBs and a handfull of DKs.

lol most ppl that rolled sorc & grinded fast to v10 are the worst i've seen and they'll probably quit soon if something else is deemed OP in someones eyes, all they do is take 1 hit & teleport away, im not worried about that

Bash did need a fix, seeing 99% of DKs just standing there like idiots waving a shield and slaughtering ppl in pvp while dropping standard every 2 seconds was dumb af.

if you go a tank spec, you're a tank, you're hard as hell to kill, even by sorcs, and you also want to kill everyone in 3 seconds? pls

Luvsfuzzybunnies

eNumbra wrote: »

This is unacceptable; there's no reason beating someone to death with a shield should be less efficient than heavy attacks with actual weapons. Shield bash should definitely hit both faster and harder than a heavy attack with an actual weapon.

Now if we could just dual-wield shields then Zenimax would be on to something.

I can't begin to tell you how much this means to me.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

Robocles wrote: »

Exactly which nerf? The one to the Deadly Bash passive? That only corrected improper contribution from +bash damage enchants.

Somehow I managed so survive today, after the patch, with my 1h/shield setup. Did it occur to you that your shield wasn't supposed to be a major source of dps? Bash is there for the interrupt... and I suppose you could use it to dump stamina... but you have other skills that are better for that.

The argument about how much damage your 1h weapon does is quite a different issue... and one I agree should be addressed.

Please tell me which DK Class skill line is Stamina base? If you don't know what you are talking about please STFU. In case you are wondering Draconic Power, Ardent Flame, and Earthen Heart are all magicka based.

Emencie wrote: »

I think you haven't been in the game. Bash deals about 50% less damage now when you actually interrupt the target, when you simply hit the target with it it deals about 75% less damage.

"Bashing now deals more damage on a successful interrupt, and less damage when your target is not casting an ability.

Fixed an issue where bash/interrupt could be used more frequently than intended when it was repeatedly engaged.

Deadly Bash. Fixed an issue where the damage bonus coupled with a “bashing” jewelry enchant was doing too much damage.Slightly decreased this ability’s stamina cost reduction."
They did a bit more than change the glyphs.

Spot on. Also while testing it earlier today I noticed that the stamina cost has increased and not decreased as they claim. Used to cost 4-5% to use, not its 8-10%. Besides nerfing the damage to *** on it they doubled its cost.

Um they said they decreased the stamina reduction hence increased stamina cost.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

RianaTheBosmer wrote: »

They balance for PvP. All MMOs do it the same way. Those of us who only PvE will always take the hit.

Yea, but nerfin tank DK's to the ground, can't speak for other classes, is just making sure your player base that rolled tank moved on to the next MMO, and there is one just around the corner, 9 days away to be exact.

If we think about this for a second we actually see the tank weapon skill line falling to the correct level of damage. Yes bash is an interrupt no its not supposed to be your main source of damage which also negates 85% of incoming damage and allows you to cast magicka based abilities at the same time. Youre a tank(by your own admission) and you wanna do glass cannon damage I understand they said play how you want but they were thinking about their game health not how you could be the supreme ruler of their fantasy world.

Maverick827

Aimelin wrote: »

you're a tank, you're hard as hell to kill

Not in veteran zones. Killing mobs before they kill you is really the only viable way to level. You're not going to "out tank" a pack of veteran mobs and slowly whittle them down.

The way it's always been balanced from my experience is that tanks can pull a bunch of enemies at once and kill them slightly slower than DPS killing enemies one by one. Ultimately the numbers would even out. In this game, however, the tank just dies before he kills even one enemy, whereas the DPS can still.burn through his one at a time. If the tank pulls one at a time, he's just killing much slower with no upside.

Bangstin

Maverick827 wrote: »

Killing mobs before they kill you is really the only viable way to level.

You shouldn't tell the secret tactics to everyone here.

zhevon

thelg wrote: »

Real problem is that melee is really bad, bash spam made melee good. 2h is a joke, dual wield is somewhat better but still terrible.

Simple fix would probably be to just half stamina costs of melee styles, because right now using them is a suicide. Crap damage for a large cost

See thats the real problem - I am not surprised everyone ignored this. I am not sure if halving stamina is the solution but melee is just bad.

Luvsfuzzybunnies

MrBeatDown wrote: »

They have basically removed All sword and board tanks from the game. None of us are going to stay. We don't have time for them to fix the OBVIOUS mistake they made by nerfing bash. At the rate they move with fixes for the game, you will probably have to wait for another content patch to be released before they fix the class they just removed from the game. I cant believe they actually nerfed Interrupt Bash. So foolish.

Can you think of any other weapon skills that did as much damage as bash that didn't have a cast time or charge time? Not to mention its a tank/utility skill line more so than dps...

Maverick827

Bangstin wrote: »

Maverick827 wrote: »

Killing mobs before they kill you is really the only viable way to level.

You shouldn't tell the secret tactics to everyone here.

You know what I meant.

moskil

RomedyMC wrote: »

Second, you built your char around a broken ability and didn't expect it to get changed? Seriously?

U are so funny, when i paid a subscription there was no information that this game is in beta state, also there was no info that bash is broken. I paid for finished product so why should i expect that they will change rules after 2 months by nerf for bash dmg -70%?
Your argument is rlly idiotic. At game begining i lost my stuff coz of bank bug, you should to say "you put your items to the broken bank system and didnt expect that u will lost your ***?"
Seriously? are u so limited to use so stupid arguments?

Chuggernaut

I have to agree, Bash was part of my everyday combat in PVE. According to FTC before the update I was hitting for over 300 a bash (VR2 with 35 Stamina), now it hits for 88 or 111 if I interrupt the target! At least if bash was gonna get dropped so much, my sword attacks should have been buffed. It seems like I need to pick up a new weapon tree

Bangstin

moskil wrote: »

RomedyMC wrote: »

Second, you built your char around a broken ability and didn't expect it to get changed? Seriously?

U are so funny, when i paid a subscription there was no information that this game is in beta state, also there was no info that bash is broken. I paid for finished product so why should i expect that they will change rules after 2 months by nerf for bash dmg -70%?
Your argument is rlly idiotic. At game begining i lost my stuff coz of bank bug, you should to say "you put your items to the broken bank system and didnt expect that u will lost your ***?"
Seriously? are u so limited to use so stupid arguments?

When you paid for the subscription you also accepted Eula and terms of use which means Zeni can change and do whatever they want with the game.
Also be ready to get dissapointed in every mmo you will play if you don't accept the fact that broken/op things will (usually) be fixed sooner or later.

sir_vasb16_ESO

Passive is broken.. Does 85 damage againts VR1 mobs.. Bash is slow... Broken and useless...

FENGRUSH

davidafox79_ESO wrote: »

Is it just me or does it pis$ you off when people insinuate you don't know how to play. This is my 2nd mmo wow being the other. I know how to play games but my real life doesn't allow me to research on a leisure activity such as a video game. I'm not a moron but yeah I got used to something I was enjoying and now I die way too much to make this game fun. Again I'm not hard core and those of you who live on monsters and cheetos and live with mommy and daddy who say I didn't learn how to play don't realize I have 1 hour a day to play normally so this game was my cross eyed and drooling get my mind off of life Avenue. Thanks to everyone who is helping me with advice.

Your posts are funny to read. Thanks for the comedic relief from the work day. Enjoy the long weekend and hope you find out how to do something other than bash mobs continuously in front of you. It was never intended to be a form of DPS.

Chuggernaut

sir_vasb16_ESO wrote: »

Passive is broken.. Does 85 damage againts VR1 mobs.. Bash is slow... Broken and useless...

Yup, hits slower and vs VR2 mobs its 88/111

ThisOnePosts

Shields provide you with ARMOR. Does anyone not realize that? They were being combined with accessories to do more damage than intended. Nightblades have the most things messed up about them right now that there is their own official thread on it from ZOS! Yet we've waited patiently, switch weapons if you can't find a new strat. As others have said, it's meant for interrupting, blocking, mitigating some damage (the armor). Yes you can do damage with a shield, but nothing like a sword. If your actual weapon isn't doing damage, that's another issue.. but shield bash is where it should be. Yes I found it useful previously but it is still useful if you use it as it was intended to be.

sagitter

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

Tanthul wrote: »

It's not an active skill and should never be considered as such. It's a mechanic for interrupting. Nothing more. It still does decent damage on interrupts. It should not be used as a spammable attack.

well sorry but the whole sword´n´board line is ment to make it an active ability the existance of deadly bash clearly indicates this.

Since it got fixed it only makes sense bashing to interrupt. That is what it was designed for and how it should be used.

i do completly agree for every weapon line BUT 1h/s.

Players should use regular skills and light/heavy attacks for regular damage and the interrupt mechanic for interrupts. Any situation which results in using the interrupt mechanic (that is not an actual skill but a game mechanic-I mean for example Venom Arrow is also an interrupt for spells but it takes a slot on your bar and does not make you block everything) as your primary damage output is by definition broken.

once again thats only your assumption, 1h/s dmg output is so freaking low compared to other weaponlines without the shield bash ability its laughable. the whole line was balanced around shild bash beeing a vital source of its dmg - even though i do agree a dmg reduction was needed but not by the margin done.

Not even factoring that you are as tanky as it gets while doing it. ALL damage skills/spells should do more damage than bashing and not the other way around. And you also should not be able to interrupt skills/spells ad infinitum. Resource management must also come into play.

intresting, absolutly everyone is permanently running around "blocking" spamming other attacks that actually do dmg while 1h/s it is forbidden to do so... a bit strange :P

Tanthul wrote: »

Indeed but he mentioned he was VR5 or VR2..there are plenty of Dolmens he has not done yet. He can just slot the skills and tag along on a few. Getting skills to the morph point this way is very easy. If someone is VR10 and they don't already have enough learnt skills/were relying solely on bashing they can join a farming group in Bangkorai or wherever and level a few skills up in no time.

with the changes done to VR content if half of the participants at a dolmen do so you will allways wipe

U can t really think that it was working like intended, it was just stupid, i was a bash abuser too cause it was 10 times better than dw abilities. With critic bonus around 30 % and all glyph jewellry i could bash for 450-500 dmg, more than any dw abilities that required a slot. What do u think should be more deadly in real life a shield or a sword?

davidafox79_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote: »

davidafox79_ESO wrote: »

Is it just me or does it pis$ you off when people insinuate you don't know how to play. This is my 2nd mmo wow being the other. I know how to play games but my real life doesn't allow me to research on a leisure activity such as a video game. I'm not a moron but yeah I got used to something I was enjoying and now I die way too much to make this game fun. Again I'm not hard core and those of you who live on monsters and cheetos and live with mommy and daddy who say I didn't learn how to play don't realize I have 1 hour a day to play normally so this game was my cross eyed and drooling get my mind off of life Avenue. Thanks to everyone who is helping me with advice.

Your posts are funny to read. Thanks for the comedic relief from the work day. Enjoy the long weekend and hope you find out how to do something other than bash mobs continuously in front of you. It was never intended to be a form of DPS.

You're welcome. I'm here to please (:

GreatKuma

Ahem....how many of you are LARPers? Let's use a bit of real world experience.

I play a game called Dagorhir. I'm a SnB fighter. Shields are not weapons. Know why? They're strapped to your arm. Unless you had a bladed shield, which would be as much a risk to yourself as your enemy, you cannot generate enough force to do any real damage in close quarters with a shield. Unless you get a running start anyways. Shields are used for defense and if you're good, you can use one to maneuver your opponents shield and weapon to your favor.

Is ESO real life? No. But they get a point from me for the realism.

Therium104

sagitter wrote: »

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

Tanthul wrote: »

It's not an active skill and should never be considered as such. It's a mechanic for interrupting. Nothing more. It still does decent damage on interrupts. It should not be used as a spammable attack.

well sorry but the whole sword´n´board line is ment to make it an active ability the existance of deadly bash clearly indicates this.

Since it got fixed it only makes sense bashing to interrupt. That is what it was designed for and how it should be used.

i do completly agree for every weapon line BUT 1h/s.

Players should use regular skills and light/heavy attacks for regular damage and the interrupt mechanic for interrupts. Any situation which results in using the interrupt mechanic (that is not an actual skill but a game mechanic-I mean for example Venom Arrow is also an interrupt for spells but it takes a slot on your bar and does not make you block everything) as your primary damage output is by definition broken.

once again thats only your assumption, 1h/s dmg output is so freaking low compared to other weaponlines without the shield bash ability its laughable. the whole line was balanced around shild bash beeing a vital source of its dmg - even though i do agree a dmg reduction was needed but not by the margin done.

Not even factoring that you are as tanky as it gets while doing it. ALL damage skills/spells should do more damage than bashing and not the other way around. And you also should not be able to interrupt skills/spells ad infinitum. Resource management must also come into play.

intresting, absolutly everyone is permanently running around "blocking" spamming other attacks that actually do dmg while 1h/s it is forbidden to do so... a bit strange :P

Tanthul wrote: »

Indeed but he mentioned he was VR5 or VR2..there are plenty of Dolmens he has not done yet. He can just slot the skills and tag along on a few. Getting skills to the morph point this way is very easy. If someone is VR10 and they don't already have enough learnt skills/were relying solely on bashing they can join a farming group in Bangkorai or wherever and level a few skills up in no time.

with the changes done to VR content if half of the participants at a dolmen do so you will allways wipe

U can t really think that it was working like intended, it was just stupid, i was a bash abuser too cause it was 10 times better than dw abilities. With critic bonus around 30 % and all glyph jewellry i could bash for 450-500 dmg, more than any dw abilities that required a slot. What do u think should be more deadly in real life a shield or a sword?

The damage mitigation overall is not balanced for a tanks loss of damage output due to this absurd nerf. Tanks need signifanctly more damage mitigation to be viable. The devs removed an entire style of play from the game. How is this going to help long term. This may have appeased the bads and lower tier players but in the end ruins the game.

You all should be ashamed of yourselves. The devs owe the player base an apology.

moskil

Bangstin wrote: »

be ready to get dissapointed in every mmo you will play if you don't accept the fact that broken/op things will (usually) be fixed sooner or later.

There is different between fixing broken things and changing main rules in the middle of the game. Shield bash wasnt broken they just change main rule. Sword+shield build is totaly useless now, what is a sense of shield bash if u can use bash with magic staff it make exacly the same effect. What is the sense of shield bash if i can use bash with 2h and additionally make bigger dmg? U think bash was OP? But even with OP bash in compare to sorcer mass dmg bash was poor as ***. With OP bash u can kill 2 mobs and in the same time sorcers are killing 6 mobs, so who is OP?

Chuggernaut

I agree a sword should be more deadly, but sword and shield sword damage is really low. My VR2 sword and shield with VR2 equipment only hits for around 100-119 per hit. That damage versus one VR2 enemy is cool, but when you have to defend against 3+ at over 2000hp each it ridiculous.

Since most likely bash wont be returned to its former glory, can they at least lift the overcharged stat for armor if you have a shield equipped? That way at least my lower damage output wouldn't be so bad. I'm a blacksmith and would rather waste resources upgrading everything to legendary then respecing into another weapon field.

Also sword and board needs an AOE taunt, but that can be added after the armor cap is removed for them.

penguinlaraub17_ESO

Bangstin wrote: »

moskil wrote: »

RomedyMC wrote: »

Second, you built your char around a broken ability and didn't expect it to get changed? Seriously?

U are so funny, when i paid a subscription there was no information that this game is in beta state, also there was no info that bash is broken. I paid for finished product so why should i expect that they will change rules after 2 months by nerf for bash dmg -70%?
Your argument is rlly idiotic. At game begining i lost my stuff coz of bank bug, you should to say "you put your items to the broken bank system and didnt expect that u will lost your ***?"
Seriously? are u so limited to use so stupid arguments?

When you paid for the subscription you also accepted Eula and terms of use which means Zeni can change and do whatever they want with the game.
Also be ready to get dissapointed in every mmo you will play if you don't accept the fact that broken/op things will (usually) be fixed sooner or later.

We also paid for a "finished" product. Not a buggy ass game that feels like its still in the beta stage with how obvious some of these bugs are.

Ser Lobo

Would someone clarify for me how 'bash' works?

I hold the right mouse button to block, right? And then I attack with the left mouse button, right?

Can't I bash with every weapon? Like, with those sharp pointy daggers?

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

Bangstin wrote: »

moskil wrote: »

RomedyMC wrote: »

Second, you built your char around a broken ability and didn't expect it to get changed? Seriously?

U are so funny, when i paid a subscription there was no information that this game is in beta state, also there was no info that bash is broken. I paid for finished product so why should i expect that they will change rules after 2 months by nerf for bash dmg -70%?
Your argument is rlly idiotic. At game begining i lost my stuff coz of bank bug, you should to say "you put your items to the broken bank system and didnt expect that u will lost your ***?"
Seriously? are u so limited to use so stupid arguments?

When you paid for the subscription you also accepted Eula and terms of use which means Zeni can change and do whatever they want with the game.
Also be ready to get dissapointed in every mmo you will play if you don't accept the fact that broken/op things will (usually) be fixed sooner or later.

We also paid for a "finished" product. Not a buggy ass game that feels like its still in the beta stage with how obvious some of these bugs are.

No. You paid for a product. Finished was never included in the item you bought. Having played MMO's since the late 90's, this is a very common misconception for those players who just start.

The fact that the game is always in production is one of the positive sides. Unlike a single player game, like Skyrim, ESO can stay 'in production' for 10+ years, with usually two expansions a year. The end result in a game like World of Warcraft or Everquest, is a game that looks dated, but has more content than most players will ever be able to get to.

Another common misconception for new MMO players is 'renting'. You are renting your character. You didn't buy anything, really. From the client to your characters to all the items you get (sometimes, even to the box itself, ala EvE online), nothing is actually yours. You don't pay the company to keep producing. You pay the company to be allowed to play with their toys.

Two common misconceptions about the MMO world that should be clarified often.