DK Bash nerf for PVE is unacceptable

Zaxq

Great. They fixed one of the most over-exploited skills.

I hope you had a back up plan to herp-derp 1-buttoning . .

Gaudrath

davidafox79_ESO wrote: »

A 1 hand weapon does HARDLY any damage. I wouldn't care about bash if I could hit a mob and see it's health move.

Then use one of those big weapons. Or maybe two weapons!

Oh, you want to tank? Well, then tank. Why, as a tank, are you concerned with your DPS? Because that's the only thing that got changed with the Shield Bash.

Tankqull

Gaudrath wrote: »

davidafox79_ESO wrote: »

A 1 hand weapon does HARDLY any damage. I wouldn't care about bash if I could hit a mob and see it's health move.

Then use one of those big weapons. Or maybe two weapons!

Oh, you want to tank? Well, then tank. Why, as a tank, are you concerned with your DPS? Because that's the only thing that got changed with the Shield Bash.

because you can´t tickle mobs to death before dying on your own?

Tanthul

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

Tanthul wrote: »

It's not an active skill and should never be considered as such. It's a mechanic for interrupting. Nothing more. It still does decent damage on interrupts. It should not be used as a spammable attack.

well sorry but the whole sword´n´board line is ment to make it an active ability the existance of deadly bash clearly indicates this.

No you have that entirely wrong. Deadly Bash does not indicate that. Do not assume things. Deadly Bash is just a passive that boosts the damage and reduces the cost so you can fit the tank role better. It is supposed to give you some synergy while you are interrupting attacks. 1H/S i a defensive skill line. It is "tank tools". It was never meant to make bashing a viable dps option. Like so many other available passives it's just a little "oomph" meant for a specific role.

Since it got fixed it only makes sense bashing to interrupt. That is what it was designed for and how it should be used.

i do completly agree for every weapon line BUT 1h/s.

See above.

Players should use regular skills and light/heavy attacks for regular damage and the interrupt mechanic for interrupts. Any situation which results in using the interrupt mechanic (that is not an actual skill but a game mechanic-I mean for example Venom Arrow is also an interrupt for spells but it takes a slot on your bar and does not make you block everything) as your primary damage output is by definition broken.

once again thats only your assumption, 1h/s dmg output is so freaking low compared to other weaponlines without the shield bash ability its laughable. the whole line was balanced around shild bash beeing a vital source of its dmg - even though i do agree a dmg reduction was needed but not by the margin done.

No it is not my assumption. 1H/S is supposed to have low damage output. It is a tank's line. It was not balanced around shield bad being a vital source of damage. It is based upon giving you tools to tank. Not do damage. You are the one assuming things here. As much as you can't do any real damage with the restoration staff line without using other skills and passive synergies, you also can't, and shouldn't, be able to do so with 1H/S. The damage oriented weapon skill lines are 2H, Destro and Dual Wield. 1H/S is tanking line, Resto is healing line. It's that simple.

Not even factoring that you are as tanky as it gets while doing it. ALL damage skills/spells should do more damage than bashing and not the other way around. And you also should not be able to interrupt skills/spells ad infinitum. Resource management must also come into play.

intresting, absolutly everyone is permanently running around "blocking" spamming other attacks that actually do dmg while 1h/s it is forbidden to do so... a bit strange :P

This statement makes no sense. At all.
a) Anyone can block and bash. The effectiveness of anyone without shield is absolutely bad. 1H/S helps you with that. It makes you an effective tank.
b) Bash is the interrupt mechanic. Not a damage mechanic or even a skill. Anyone can do it. 1H/S does it better, doing some damage on the interrupt and blocking huge amounts of damage. Meant to be used by a tank build.

So I really do not understand your statement. If someone is running around blocking they still take huge amounts of damage..unless they're using a shield. What seems strange to you about that?

Tanthul wrote: »

Indeed but he mentioned he was VR5 or VR2..there are plenty of Dolmens he has not done yet. He can just slot the skills and tag along on a few. Getting skills to the morph point this way is very easy. If someone is VR10 and they don't already have enough learnt skills/were relying solely on bashing they can join a farming group in Bangkorai or wherever and level a few skills up in no time.

with the changes done to VR content if half of the participants at a dolmen do so you will allways wipe

If you are doing the dolmen with 6-7 people maybe..but seriously how many players actually relied solely on the broken bash mechanic and have no other skills learnt that they'll all rush now to Dolmens to compensate?
I just offered a solution to people that never bothered to learn other skills. If dolmen are too hard for them (tagging along 10+ people on any given dolmen on prime time should be no issue regardless of their skill level and available learnt skills) they can always go for world bosses which are much easier/can be swarmed with a group of 6-7 regardless of their skill (most of them--a few exceptions come to mind) and offer similar xp.

elorei

Neoklis wrote: »

sorcerers spam AoEs

Please list all of those damage dealing AoEs that sorcs have. I can't wait.

Here, I will do it for you.

Lightning splash, tiny damage, good for synergy, but spammable? nope, its a DoT basically.

Shattering prison (morph of restraining prison). Very little damage, its a crowd control spell with a tiny bit of damage added for the morph. Not spammable, as the damage happens seconds after casting.

And then there is...oh wait, we are already out of sorc damage dealing AoEs.

Ako

Enjoying this thread all the tears over a fix that most of you are miscalling a nerf. Read the tooltip that's always been there and you will see this is a fix and we've all (me included) been using bash in its broken state because it was broken to the point of being overpowered.

nez

They lowered bash dmg? FINALLY, -snip-!

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

Ruddertail

Demanding the kind of damage Deadly Bash was doing was like demanding damage from the restoration staff abilites. "Oh god, why isn't Mutagen hurting my enemy? I can't solo with a full resto bar! Canceling my subscription now!"

There are defensive and offensive skill lines in the game. Sword and Shield is a defensive one focused on keeping you alive.

Tankqull

Tanthul wrote: »

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

Tanthul wrote: »

It's not an active skill and should never be considered as such. It's a mechanic for interrupting. Nothing more. It still does decent damage on interrupts. It should not be used as a spammable attack.

well sorry but the whole sword´n´board line is ment to make it an active ability the existance of deadly bash clearly indicates this.

No you have that entirely wrong. Deadly Bash does not indicate that. Do not assume things. Deadly Bash is just a passive that boosts the damage and reduces the cost so you can fit the tank role better. It is supposed to give you some synergy while you are interrupting attacks. 1H/S i a defensive skill line. It is "tank tools". It was never meant to make bashing a viable dps option. Like so many other available passives it's just a little "oomph" meant for a specific role.

Since it got fixed it only makes sense bashing to interrupt. That is what it was designed for and how it should be used.

i do completly agree for every weapon line BUT 1h/s.

See above.

lets stop this here - we can´t get a conclusion in this point as you have your assumtions of what is indicatad by what and i have mine wich are quite contradictory - so further argueing is quite futile.

Zodi53

This is actually hilarious. DK moaning about nerf. The class is still the most op class in the game. Try playing a nightblade for pve and pvp! Then see how you moan

ShintaiDK

Custos91 wrote: »

I am actually looking forward to this, since it means that all the tanks I heal are not using all their stamina anymore to bash and get extremly amounts of dmg in between, I am finally able to fine tune my magicka usage!

I dont think you know how tanking works. But again, I am only a VR10 tank with 100s and 100s of dungeons runs behind me.

Tankqull

Zodi53 wrote: »

This is actually hilarious. DK moaning about nerf. The class is still the most op class in the game. Try playing a nightblade for pve and pvp! Then see how you moan

i´m not moaning as a DK but a templar...

ShintaiDK

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

Yes, now they will need to learn to play or keep raging on forums and finally quit the game 'cos it's too hard. Magicka or stamina based has nothing to do with that. Doing something else than just standing in place waving a shield will require some learning. I do agree that ppl who used that don't have the capacity or will to learn at all and it'll be harsh for them, but that's a different story

I would like to hear your alternative, rather than just your trolling.

And spamming the botton for crystal shards is not exactly the most challenging there is.

ShintaiDK

Gaudrath wrote: »

Then use one of those big weapons. Or maybe two weapons!

Oh, you want to tank? Well, then tank. Why, as a tank, are you concerned with your DPS? Because that's the only thing that got changed with the Shield Bash.

Remember that comment when you stand for hours and cant find tanks for your dungeons or trials because they cant level. Then I am sure someone will tell you to L2P without tanks.

ShintaiDK

A lot of people seems to confuse shield bash vs shield bash with stacked +bash jewlery. One doesn around 280dmg a hit with stamina usage. The other can do 600 to 800. Plus you can crit with bash too. While the last part needed adjustment. For those not abusing it and using the first part its a disaster.

Dymence

I don't get this thread at all. So what if a light attack now deals more damage than a shield bash? Do you people not have at least a slight sense of realism? I know we're playing a fantasy game, but man....

Stop and think for a second. What's going to hurt more, getting cut by a sword or bashed by a shield?

Yeah... that's what I thought.

penguinlaraub17_ESO

Dymence wrote: »

I don't get this thread at all. So what if a light attack now deals more damage than a shield bash? Do you people not have at least a slight sense of realism? I know we're playing a fantasy game, but man....

Stop and think for a second. What's going to hurt more, getting cut by a sword or bashed by a shield?

Yeah... that's what I thought.

If you want realism you would know S/B is one of the best combat forms, proven through out history. So tell me why 2h and Dual Wield are better in this game?

Zaxq

ShintaiDK wrote: »

A lot of people seems to confuse shield bash vs shield bash with stacked +bash jewlery. One doesn around 280dmg a hit with stamina usage. The other can do 600 to 800. Plus you can crit with bash too. While the last part needed adjustment. For those not abusing it and using the first part its a disaster.

That's the trouble though - you were ALL abusing it.

Lorgren_Benirus

First of all, it's NOT a "DK bash". DK's don't have their own "special bash ability", it's Sword and Shield style which can be used by ANY class.

Second, don't go assuming that everyone who was using "sword&board" used bash only. One of my characters is actually NB with a "sword&board" using heavy armor and he uses bash only to interrupt and to land occasional smack. I'd say in a 1-on-1 PvE fight that char uses bash ability about two times, one of which is to interrupt (sometimes both) and other smack is just to "get the message through". He doesn't have any bash specific jewelry and what not. Not to mention that I personally always found it idiotic when I saw some shield users run up to the mob and then just stand there and only bash them. How foolish is that?

However! This game in most cases is a solo game. You can't even properly group up with a friend because all quest lines, pretty much, are solo updates. Boss fights place players into solo instance. Basically there's no bloody reason to group almost at all for generic PvE play and if you do, the game still forces you to solo, pretty much. Also according to Zenimax's own "talks" they wanted to "break the holy trinity of tank/dps/heal" by giving players the way to choose any skill line, make any char they want and they'd all be viable. Well, apparently some are now - and becoming - more viable while others are not anymore. Every change the ZM seems to be doing lately is actually enforcing that same "holy trinity" they were trying to eliminate. And I am not even talking about many posters on these forums who never even got the concept of "free choices" and are totally stuck in a class/role specific game play. So now ZM claims they have "fixed" the skill line but as it seems, they've actually made it worse, since the skills don't even do now what their tooltips are saying. And all that without doing anything in return to keep the skill more viable, sword and shield namely. It's fine to fix a broken thing but it's not just turning one thing off and then leaving it there totally useless. Fix the bash issue, no problems, but make the sword and shield line to be more viable as such too so that, you know, people can actually choose the game style they want and be viable with it.

That said, maybe then it's time to look into other things as well. Let's take sorcerers. A dude in a bloody pyjama can run into middle of heavily armored and armed group and then just blast off one AoE after another, many times in a row, and burn them all to death. Basically a stick wearing non-armored char can do what no-one else can do. And that is fine? None of my chars can't even use their abilities more then 3 or 4 times (with cost reduction or regen increasing jewelry) without being bone dry on their resources but sorcerers like that have no issues. None of my chars can take on that amount of mobs at once and get out of it alive but they can. Excuse me but if the shield bash was such an issue in everyone's eye then this is also an issue. And I don't care about PvP side since I don't really play it, gets boring fast, but in PvE this thing happens all the time. So if some using one ability is too strong then let's be fair, let's have a look at other abilities as well and "fix" these too.

Gaudrath

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Gaudrath wrote: »

Then use one of those big weapons. Or maybe two weapons!

Oh, you want to tank? Well, then tank. Why, as a tank, are you concerned with your DPS? Because that's the only thing that got changed with the Shield Bash.

Remember that comment when you stand for hours and cant find tanks for your dungeons or trials because they cant level. Then I am sure someone will tell you to L2P without tanks.

They can't level? Then how did I level? I have zero points in S&B, holy mother of... someone superglued their skills to the bar so they can't use anything else?

SB is an INTERRUPT. It's used to INTERRUPT. Not spam-bash your way to glory. It could be doing zero DPS and it would still serve its purpose as an...

...wait for it...

INTERRUPT

MercyKilling

You shouldn't be running around relying upon your shield to do damage. That's what main attacks and abilities are for.
I doubt this will affect me in any way.

Gaudrath

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

I don't get this thread at all. So what if a light attack now deals more damage than a shield bash? Do you people not have at least a slight sense of realism? I know we're playing a fantasy game, but man....

Stop and think for a second. What's going to hurt more, getting cut by a sword or bashed by a shield?

Yeah... that's what I thought.

If you want realism you would know S/B is one of the best combat forms, proven through out history. So tell me why 2h and Dual Wield are better in this game?

Because it is a game. Otherwise we might also have permadeath from disease, wounds, having to play an alt because your main broke his leg and won't heal up for a few months and so on.

Big weapons = damage
Two weapons = damage
Shield = protection. NOT damage.

Simple.

ShintaiDK

Zaxq wrote: »

That's the trouble though - you were ALL abusing it.

Last time I chcked I didnt have any +bash jewlery. Its about equal to call you a cheater and exploiter because I saw someone else in the game doing it.

ShintaiDK

Dymence wrote: »

I don't get this thread at all. So what if a light attack now deals more damage than a shield bash? Do you people not have at least a slight sense of realism? I know we're playing a fantasy game, but man....

Stop and think for a second. What's going to hurt more, getting cut by a sword or bashed by a shield?

Yeah... that's what I thought.

If you got a slight sense of realism, all magicka based skills would be removed right away. Not to mention vamps and WW.

Zaxq

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Zaxq wrote: »

That's the trouble though - you were ALL abusing it.

Last time I chcked I didnt have any +bash jewlery. Its about equal to call you a cheater and exploiter because I saw someone else in the game doing it.

It doesnt need jewellery.

It was never intended to be spammed as fast as it could be. Or deal the damage it did. Hence the current fixes.

Hence you were all exploiting it.

Zero_Tolerance

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

Yes, now they will need to learn to play or keep raging on forums and finally quit the game 'cos it's too hard. Magicka or stamina based has nothing to do with that. Doing something else than just standing in place waving a shield will require some learning. I do agree that ppl who used that don't have the capacity or will to learn at all and it'll be harsh for them, but that's a different story

I would like to hear your alternative, rather than just your trolling.

And spamming the botton for crystal shards is not exactly the most challenging there is.

Alternative? Like, do anything else than bashing? If you can't think of anything then your alternative is called Tetris.

I don't even know what crystal shards is, I play dual wield NB with 1 bar mainly (sometimes use 2nd one for ranged/DoTs), currently VR9. I mix both stamina and magicka skills. Last night I soloed 4 pinions on V10 dolmen in Reaper's, called for ppl to help me with 26k HP Frost Atronach final boss. Granted I died couple of times, but still, it wasn't too bad (if I was V10, had better gear/AvA bonus running - and if weapon swap and all the skills worked flawlessly and when you want them to work, maybe I wouldn't die at all). Before that I did 2 pinions on another dolmen and had some V10 Templar noob come and *** up the spawns for me. Later he was joined by some V7 nabs, one of them shield bashing DK, who proceeded to call me a *** and such when I wanted them to leave so that I can do the dolmen myself ('cos you know, 4 ppl is not enough to do a dolmen, LOL). I only have blue gear V9, bar trinkets that are all green and V4-V6.

The game is challenging if you want it to be. As it is, on dual wield NB there is little challenge, more hassle in the content. Some mobs are very hard, like vet Storm Atronachs, or Harvesters on vet dolmens when you solo - but none of this is undoable or requires anything special that hasn't been used in one way or the other in other games. Ppl who bashed through whole game never learned to play it, and now they will have to or they'll go play something else. You might not like the L2P attitude here, but it really is the only thing that can be said to anyone raging about bash fix.

Tankqull

Zaxq wrote: »

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Zaxq wrote: »

That's the trouble though - you were ALL abusing it.

Last time I chcked I didnt have any +bash jewlery. Its about equal to call you a cheater and exploiter because I saw someone else in the game doing it.

It doesnt need jewellery.

It was never intended to be spammed as fast as it could be. Or deal the damage it did. Hence the current fixes.

Hence you were all exploiting it.

the problem was the glyphes increasing the dmg to rediculous amounts, no other skill could be pushed that way wich clearly was a horrible decission.

but saying that an ability was not ment to be used regularily with a pssiv doubling its dmg while halfing its resource cost is just stupid.
it was ment that way hence they would have never designed deadly bash.

frankuguzzb16_ESO

davidafox79_ESO wrote: »

My weapon with a 1h does little to no damage so bash was the only reasonable way I could survive soloing while questing. This nerf I died after my 2nd pull. Didn't realize you TOTALLY killed the DPS of bash. I consider this unacceptable and is a deal breaker for me. I thought this game wasn't just going to cater to PVP. WOW2.0?

LOL, just LOL
Owns the most op melee class skills and CC= complains the nerf on a weaponk skill tree.
Just try nightblade or healer and show us how good u are :P

Ruddertail

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Gaudrath wrote: »

Then use one of those big weapons. Or maybe two weapons!

Oh, you want to tank? Well, then tank. Why, as a tank, are you concerned with your DPS? Because that's the only thing that got changed with the Shield Bash.

Remember that comment when you stand for hours and cant find tanks for your dungeons or trials because they cant level. Then I am sure someone will tell you to L2P without tanks.

Hello there. DKs are not the only tanks in the game. Nor is Sword and Shield even remotely close to being the only way to tank.

ShintaiDK

Ruddertail wrote: »

Hello there. DKs are not the only tanks in the game. Nor is Sword and Shield even remotely close to being the only way to tank.

I am not a DK. And I would like to see your alternative to a tank.