DK Bash nerf for PVE is unacceptable

zinoviy22b14_ESO · May 2014

NB tank here... my stam is used for more then just bash..

Still_Mind · May 2014

davidafox79_ESO wrote: »

My weapon with a 1h does little to no damage so bash was the only reasonable way I could survive soloing while questing. This nerf I died after my 2nd pull. Didn't realize you TOTALLY killed the DPS of bash. I consider this unacceptable and is a deal breaker for me. I thought this game wasn't just going to cater to PVP. WOW2.0?

Forget melee damage. Go light armour and cost reduction jewelry and spam stuff to death with AoE, while holding block. Burn strong single targets with stacked DoTs. Light armour1h\s+Dragon Blood offers more survivability than heavy+1h\s+dragon blood, as well as more damage.

Proper resource management will even let you wear down CC-immune 2-3 star elites.

sagitter · May 2014

it has no sense doing high dmg , better than some slotted skills while blocking 360 and stunning over and over untill u have stamina.

KraidenDove · May 2014

NPC's get a damage upgrade, and weapons get a downgrade for characters with patch. Bash gets taken away as an effective DPS counter to two handed's extra damage and the elemental that all sorcs get. Essentially gentlemen, sword and board dps players just got screwed. We have less damage than any other class now with no way to kill mobs.

I trained in a bow but as a back up weapon and it is still farm from killing group mobs. With enemies in VR 9-10 zones hitting for 250 damage minimum, good luck trying to stay alive when your damage is only ~160 with buffs with sword and board attacks. Even with puncture you are doing around 260. Since their health increase...well you get the picture.

Lovely · May 2014

Templar tank here. VR4, bash was doing 225-240 dmg with Ransack. OP?

People seem to think that bash didn't need to do damage since it's an interrupt. But this game has very few active abilities so they need to bake crowd control with damage dealing abilities and interrupts and so on.

Also, I don't see anything wrong in seeing the shield as the damage source. In other games, by having a shield you trade damage for survivability, but the shield here brings nothing to the table. It's less armour than a glove, what is its point if not to do some damage?

Quaesivi · May 2014

The real problem was never bash, it just made many people deviate from the real problem. Any magicka line can easily hit 600-800 DPS on its own, only 1 melee line, 1H/S, and only through bashing, could go that high. Problem is that with bashing damage lowered as well, its simply "Use Magicka/Staff or GTFO", sadly, its "Elder Magicka Online" rather than anything else, I could play a decent Stamina build, even without bashing (with DW) as a DK... in Heavy Armor... so now I need to pay 25k for respeccing my skills and stats, go full light and staff because frankly, I'm massively screwed by a spiky 7m shaft that apparently belongs to Zenimax.

Sarevok · May 2014

I do agree there should have been a nerf but ZOS have gone way too far with it. Now bash is completely useless and we can all give thanks to the PvP whiners for it.

Ffolks · May 2014

I'm just amazed that people cried nerf over bash, a single target ability, when there's people running around in light armor and a staff taking down groups of 6+ V11 mobs in Craglorn. On my NB I'm having difficulty now taking down a group of two V10s and prior to the patch I could handle 3 max, and I never stacked bash buffs either.

I could change I suppose, and jump on the staff bandwagon, put I chose sword and shield in beta because I liked the aesthetic and it was viable. It's not now and I'm discouraged from playing. I can no longer play *my* way.

They should have compensated for the lost DPS in another ability in the sword and shield line.

No longer having fun.

Zero_Tolerance · May 2014

Haha, the best thing about this update is the /nerdrage of bashnoobs. So horrible, now they have to learn to play.

ShintaiDK · May 2014

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

Haha, the best thing about this update is the /nerdrage of bashnoobs. So horrible, now they have to learn to play.

Jumping to the magicka based bandwagon is not "l2p". Its simply the flavour of the month.

Cogo · May 2014

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

So a 75% Damage nerf was needed? Or double the stamina cost? Yes the cost went up, not down as stated in the patch notes, go test it. Even when used as an interrupt it does around 50% less damage than before.

When will people understand this. Its not a nerf...its a FIX. And I am sorry but as a tank I have so many stamina regen abilities that stamina is not my problem.

Past week when I found out that shield bash was overpowered, I stoped using it other then interupt. Guess what....yesterday I killed a troll. Took me bloody 10 mins, switching between 1h and shield and my bow + other abilities but after 1 res, I wun!

So if I understand you correctly, a shield bash on a NONE interupted target, should do as much or more damage then a mages fire staff?

Nothing rings a bell here? Maybe I just dont understand why you are against this. You might really liked the damage. Sure, so did I, until I found out it was not working as intended. Then you adapt. Isnt that quite alot what ESO is about? adapting?

Cogo · May 2014

zinoviy22b14_ESO wrote: »

NB tank here... my stam is used for more then just bash..

Oh, you actually play the game then! Great!

Do you call this a nerf or a fix? I seam to get a lot of stuff thrown at me when I state its a fix. Even if it reduces my own damage.

Nashaan · May 2014

A shield is not just for defence, it is an offensive weapon as well - the people saying that are correct BUT in the game it shouldn't have been doing over twice as much damage as the main hand weapon.

Two points in the passive and a glyph on jewellry made it OP whatever way you look at it. The majority of sword & board DK's did the same thing - razor armour, talons, bash,bash,bash,bash,win, rinse & repeat. I did it on my DK as well. If easy mode is available people will use it, including myself. No class should be be able to put out that much damage whilst being continuously in a defensive stance.

Should it have been changed as much as it was? Maybe not, but the point is it did need changing. It STILL does more damage than the weapon in your other hand if you interupt, you just can't spam that amount of damage.

CorporalCrimson · May 2014

I just to say I complete agree with the original poster. BASH WAS VERY IMPORTANT. I am not a dps, im a tank, my pitiful one handed stick of crap in my right hand isn't doing anything in ESO, so tell me how I am going to get by doing damage?? I am very angry.

Morbus2 · May 2014

If your shield is doing more damage than your sword, that's a problem. You're supposed to do damage with your sword and defend and interrupt with your shield. C'mon man, have some common sense.

Cogo · May 2014

Ffolks wrote: »

I'm just amazed that people cried nerf over bash, a single target ability, when there's people running around in light armor and a staff taking down groups of 6+ V11 mobs in Craglorn. On my NB I'm having difficulty now taking down a group of two V10s and prior to the patch I could handle 3 max, and I never stacked bash buffs either.

I could change I suppose, and jump on the staff bandwagon, put I chose sword and shield in beta because I liked the aesthetic and it was viable. It's not now and I'm discouraged from playing. I can no longer play *my* way.

They should have compensated for the lost DPS in another ability in the sword and shield line.

No longer having fun.

Finaly! Someone who express a concern with a point.

Can I ask you, do you see 1H and shield as a one of the bigger damage dealing abilities? For me 1h and shield is about the shield. Block is pretty damn good.....no one here mentions that, hehe.

If 1H and shield did as much damage as lets say 2H and mage staff.....wouldnt everyone run around with 1H and shield cause you do good damage and can protect yourself very well. (I am only a tank and I think the block is a biiiit to good. I can block a fireball lol)

Shouldnt it be some kind of balance? You choose some damage and safty in a shield, but you want to do damage as everyone else? Do I understand you correctly. Feel free to correct me if I understood you wrong.

Finaly someone who seams to not like the patch and can talk about it!

Cogo · May 2014

sagitter wrote: »

it has no sense doing high dmg , better than some slotted skills while blocking 360 and stunning over and over untill u have stamina.

Well said. Sadly I think most people close their eyes when they see a comment like this.

You nailed it. Bash DOES damage but like they say, only when you interupt and maybe that takes some skill to do? ;-)

KraidenDove · May 2014

ChingChong wrote: »

davidafox79_ESO wrote: »

It's not an I win button. While doing PVE you can't take on more than 2 mobs without dying no matter what skills you use in VR5 zone.

Moderator Edit: Removed for Flaming

HAHAH I GUESS WE WILL HAVE TO GET THE OVERPOWERED MAGIC STICK BECAUSE GUESS WHAT BUD, YOU ARE NEXT. We will make sure of it.

Zarkaz · May 2014

lulz

TaffyIX · May 2014

penguinlaraub17_ESO wrote: »

RianaTheBosmer wrote: »

They balance for PvP. All MMOs do it the same way. Those of us who only PvE will always take the hit.

Yea, but nerfin tank DK's to the ground, can't speak for other classes, is just making sure your player base that rolled tank moved on to the next MMO, and there is one just around the corner, 9 days away to be exact.

Nerfing Tank DK's?
Last time I looked you still were able to taunt, get your mitigation up, interupt and CC...
Sounds like all the qualities needed for a good tank.

Regarding WS... not my type of jam, have fun there though

Quintessenz · May 2014

It was more than obvious from the beginning, that Bash was never intended to work the way it did. People who relied completely an that skill to do damage where lacking insight.

They should be grateful for beeing able to abuse a broken mechanic to advance faster than most of them would have by other means.

Tankqull · May 2014

Tanthul wrote: »

Do you seriously believe that being able to take almost no damage and dish out more damage to a mob than any other available skill at the same time, while not even slotting a skill was fine? What reason would anyone have to use ANY other weapon choice if it was left like that?

well there is a slight difference in bringing a skill down to dmg values of skills costing comparable amounts of stamina and not values below a light attack wich makes the ability entirly useless.
so im absolutly on your side balance is needed but nerfing the sh!t out of it shouldn´t be the way to go...

Tanthul wrote: »

@davidafox79_ESO‌ I suggest you hit a couple of dolmens/world bosses. That will easily level up any skill you want to compliment your build with.

only when doing the first time, without the hughe bonus xp the xp gained to skills by killing those mobs is relativly useless.

SienneYviete · May 2014

So wait let me get this straight us 1h shield DK tanks are actually going to have to use our skill line for tanking rather than mass 1 target DPS now???? that's just preposterous..................

Tanthul · May 2014

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

well there is a slight difference in bringing a skill down to dmg values of skills costing comparable amounts of stamina and not values below a light attack wich makes the ability entirly useless.
so im absolutly on your side balance is needed but nerfing the sh!t out of it shouldn´t be the way to go...

It's not an active skill and should never be considered as such. It's a mechanic for interrupting. Nothing more. It still does decent damage on interrupts. It should not be used as a spammable attack. Since it got fixed it only makes sense bashing to interrupt. That is what it was designed for and how it should be used. Players should use regular skills and light/heavy attacks for regular damage and the interrupt mechanic for interrupts. Any situation which results in using the interrupt mechanic (that is not an actual skill but a game mechanic-I mean for example Venom Arrow is also an interrupt for spells but it takes a slot on your bar and does not make you block everything) as your primary damage output is by definition broken. Not even factoring that you are as tanky as it gets while doing it. ALL damage skills/spells should do more damage than bashing and not the other way around. And you also should not be able to interrupt skills/spells ad infinitum. Resource management must also come into play.

Tanthul wrote: »

@davidafox79_ESO‌ I suggest you hit a couple of dolmens/world bosses. That will easily level up any skill you want to compliment your build with.

only when doing the first time, without the hughe bonus xp the xp gained to skills by killing those mobs is relativly useless.

Indeed but he mentioned he was VR5 or VR2..there are plenty of Dolmens he has not done yet. He can just slot the skills and tag along on a few. Getting skills to the morph point this way is very easy. If someone is VR10 and they don't already have enough learnt skills/were relying solely on bashing they can join a farming group in Bangkorai or wherever and level a few skills up in no time.

Tankqull · May 2014

Tanthul wrote: »

It's not an active skill and should never be considered as such. It's a mechanic for interrupting. Nothing more. It still does decent damage on interrupts. It should not be used as a spammable attack.

well sorry but the whole sword´n´board line is ment to make it an active ability the existance of deadly bash clearly indicates this.

Since it got fixed it only makes sense bashing to interrupt. That is what it was designed for and how it should be used.

i do completly agree for every weapon line BUT 1h/s.

Players should use regular skills and light/heavy attacks for regular damage and the interrupt mechanic for interrupts. Any situation which results in using the interrupt mechanic (that is not an actual skill but a game mechanic-I mean for example Venom Arrow is also an interrupt for spells but it takes a slot on your bar and does not make you block everything) as your primary damage output is by definition broken.

once again thats only your assumption, 1h/s dmg output is so freaking low compared to other weaponlines without the shield bash ability its laughable. the whole line was balanced around shild bash beeing a vital source of its dmg - even though i do agree a dmg reduction was needed but not by the margin done.

Not even factoring that you are as tanky as it gets while doing it. ALL damage skills/spells should do more damage than bashing and not the other way around. And you also should not be able to interrupt skills/spells ad infinitum. Resource management must also come into play.

intresting, absolutly everyone is permanently running around "blocking" spamming other attacks that actually do dmg while 1h/s it is forbidden to do so... a bit strange :P

Tanthul wrote: »

Indeed but he mentioned he was VR5 or VR2..there are plenty of Dolmens he has not done yet. He can just slot the skills and tag along on a few. Getting skills to the morph point this way is very easy. If someone is VR10 and they don't already have enough learnt skills/were relying solely on bashing they can join a farming group in Bangkorai or wherever and level a few skills up in no time.

with the changes done to VR content if half of the participants at a dolmen do so you will allways wipe

Custos91 · May 2014

I am actually looking forward to this, since it means that all the tanks I heal are not using all their stamina anymore to bash and get extremly amounts of dmg in between, I am finally able to fine tune my magicka usage!
I am using 1 h and shield to go finish my last story quests, and tbh: most of my dmg does not even come from this skills, I only need the defensive value of it and I really look forward to this patch going life in the EU servers!

However, I am a little bit of a strange guy there, spended about 50k in the last two days for resetting my skills, trying to find better ways to solo, and I can assure you even with plenty of hours of theorycrafting, I got some pretty nasty hits in my face, which caused me to rethink my approaches^^
VR 10 btw

skarvika · May 2014

I agree that having played around with the sword & board myself for a bit in pve, it is extremely weak. However, also being an avid pvper, I can confirm that bash was a huge problem. A Godzilla sized one. It was turning a lot of my guildies away from pvp entirely.
I'm kind of stumped for ideas how we could make the 1h & shield playstyle more effective in pve without being too op or "cheap" in pvp. This is clearly something that requires more thought though; I see this current nerf as temporary.

Custos91 · May 2014

Aenthel wrote: »

The real problem was never bash, it just made many people deviate from the real problem. Any magicka line can easily hit 600-800 DPS on its own, only 1 melee line, 1H/S, and only through bashing, could go that high. Problem is that with bashing damage lowered as well, its simply "Use Magicka/Staff or GTFO", sadly, its "Elder Magicka Online" rather than anything else, I could play a decent Stamina build, even without bashing (with DW) as a DK... in Heavy Armor... so now I need to pay 25k for respeccing my skills and stats, go full light and staff because frankly, I'm massively screwed by a spiky 7m shaft that apparently belongs to Zenimax.

Well actually there is only 1 viable magicka only based templar build and that does not do more then 400 dps^^ on the other hand the stamina based build or the hybrid based builds are hitting 700 xD It may be true for a dk, because your passives synergyze well with Destro staff but not fo all classes^^

Tankqull · May 2014

skarvika wrote: »

I agree that having played around with the sword & board myself for a bit in pve, it is extremely weak. However, also being an avid pvper, I can confirm that bash was a huge problem. A Godzilla sized one. It was turning a lot of my guildies away from pvp entirely.
I'm kind of stumped for ideas how we could make the 1h & shield playstyle more effective in pve without being too op or "cheap" in pvp. This is clearly something that requires more thought though; I see this current nerf as temporary.

well it is easy get rid of the dmg glyphs entirly (its the only ability that can be pushed that way if i´m not wrong) and reduce its dmg to be comparable to to the dmg of other abilitys using comparable amounts of resources. -> bash fixed currently its horribly overnerfed especially with the rubbish melee attack GCD implemented with 1.1.2 in mind

Zero_Tolerance · May 2014

ShintaiDK wrote: »

Zero_Tolerance wrote: »

Haha, the best thing about this update is the /nerdrage of bashnoobs. So horrible, now they have to learn to play.

Jumping to the magicka based bandwagon is not "l2p". Its simply the flavour of the month.

Yes, now they will need to learn to play or keep raging on forums and finally quit the game 'cos it's too hard. Magicka or stamina based has nothing to do with that. Doing something else than just standing in place waving a shield will require some learning. I do agree that ppl who used that don't have the capacity or will to learn at all and it'll be harsh for them, but that's a different story