Huge Layoffs at Zenimax, a lot of ESO devs impacted

shadoza · July 9

ToddIngram wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

According to wikipedia and some other sources, ZOS had around 300 employees as of 2025.

Wikipedia is not a solid source.

Tyrion87 wrote: »

The latest sources indicate that layoffs concern 213 employees.

No. 213 were impacted by the restructuring. This includes people directly laid off and people who have had their hours reduced at the site. Do you need an VFX employee working 40 hours a week every week? Or do you only need them for 20 hours a week in one studio and 20 hours a week in another studio?

Wikipedia is more reliable than most things on the internet by a large margin.

No it isn't. The information is controlled by a few and those few are able to block fact checks and lock out changes that do not agree with their views. Wikipedia lost any credibility it may have claimed about 10 years ago.
Anyone who is curious about my position can check into the conversation behind the data. click on options: talk, edit, view history the process is demonstrated. In some political points, the viewer can see who dominates the edit process.

ZOS_Hadeostry · July 9

Hi,

Just wanted to come in and remind people that we want to keep this thread open. Make sure to be on topic and keep the rules in mind, especially Bashing. Those posters will be actioned accordingly.

Keep it positive, as always, even during this time.

spartaxoxo · July 9

hiyde wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

That's the definition that WARN uses. A reduction of hours is considered a job loss passed a certain threshold. So that 213 could be 213 firings or 213 reduction in hours by 50%. It's likely a mix of the two given we know of at least 62 direct job losses.

Got it.

So, best case scenario:
This week's cuts removed a bare minimum of 5,400 man hours a week up to a "worst case" of 8,400 man hours per week.

Or to put it another way, the equivalent of somewhere between 132 and 213 full-time employees.

Significant and concerning no matter there the true numbers lie within those ranges imo...

Have you found any information, anywhere, that anyone had their hours cut vs. fully laid off?
Like, have any ZOS employees posted to social that they're still with the team but with reduced hours?

Isn't Mass Layoff - No Recall specifically an indication that they were fully terminated with no guarantees of rehire?

spartaxoxo · July 9

Valion wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

She is trying to help ZeniMax survive.

Nope.
She lead a couple of comapnies by now, always setting them up to look great on paper, selling stocks if possible -
and then she left.
None of her endeavours are doing fine, some of her early initiatives are gone, others just exist, not having delivered.

Yeah the studios being closed were long term investments that weren't ever going to be making the money spent back right away but were reasonably likely to be extremely worth it in the long run. For some, she didn't even wait long enough for in-development games to come out. We don't know that Project Blackbird wouldn't have been the next big thing or a dud, for example.

We do know that previous leadership at Xbox raved about how fun it was and actually had to be physically pulled away from it. Which was a good sign it could at least have been ESO at its peak tier.

Qwarx · July 10

LPapirius wrote: »

Qwarx wrote: »

Sadly, you're mistaken about suits giving a crap. This is the Jack Welch school of business management. Acquire, squeeze, layoff, squeeze more, rinse, repeat, sell off the dregs. In trying to make the suits feel pain the only people you will hurt are the poor souls left holding the remains of the team together and the community. You're never going to touch the targets you're aiming for.

Doesn't matter. We have to look after our own financial well being first and foremost.

Absolutely no argument on that point. People should only spend disposable income they want to on the game. My comment is only with regard to the idea that withholding funds from ZOS will hurt the suites. They just look at the return from the company and then say "Axe X-number of heads to make up your short-fall on our expectations." Do more with less and we're increasing your financial goals for the next time period. Standard corporate raider BS.

16BitForestCat · July 10

Ugh. The news about James Sammartino (Cardinal05) also getting the boot, and that being the reason the Essential Housing Tools server is down, feels like an extra hard "screw you, ESO fans" kick in the teeth from evil overlord MAIcroschlop.

Cardinal05 has been a vital backbone of the ESO housing community for what feels like forever. It's like I can no longer remember a time before EHT came into my life.

NxJoeyD · July 10

Sluggy wrote: »

Overall, I agree with your whole argument but I did want to point out a very important detail relevant to these specific issues. It's worth bearing in mind that the video games industry is no where near as big as gamers like to make it seem. I've worked in industries that are thousands of times bigger, both in revenue and in operation and manpower. Microsoft alone makes, in net profit, more than the entire industry brings in for gross revenue. Think about that a minute. They could literally own the entire industry and earn 100% profit and it still would only just about be equal to what they make now. There is no 'slice' of this industry that is ever going to satisfy them.

True, gaming as an industry isn’t as big as some think; not relative to many other industries.

IMO it’s not so much about Microsoft simply wanting more out of ZoS / Bethesda & other dev studios “just because”. It’s more of a combination of a reversal of past heavy hiring practices combined with Microsoft wanting to go in a different direction with their core business.

Despite that, the amount of labor that was dismissed plays more toward the individual entities performance and trends versus just cutting “X” number of employees for the sake of saving a dollar value.

ESO is still attributable IP, not depreciated property or an EoL asset so I expect that the long term view is to restructure to position for growth.

At the end of the day the current state of ESO sees roughly 50% of their product having a positive reception and presents a value to players, whilst the other 50% has a deplorable reception and payers / customers don’t feel that there’s a value to invest their time or money. Few products on the market can survive with only a 50% positive reception before they fail. ESO absolutely needs significant improvement and there’s plenty of insight on exactly how to do that and, IMO, from a product management perspective a “clean house” is what’s needed if that’s ever going to happen.

I don’t necessarily fault the technical developers themselves, but the creative leadership definitely needed to be reevaluated here.

peacenote · July 10

My condolences and best wishes to everyone who was directly impacted by these layoffs. Even under the most ideal and carefully planned circumstances, it is never an enjoyable experience. Know that the work you all did for this game was enjoyed by many and will continue to be appreciated as long as ESO exists.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · July 10

They axed Gina?!

DanteTheDeviant · July 10

shadoza wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Kilthor69 wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Just one of an endless list of reasons to hate the AI, data centers, Nvidia, Microslop, and the rest of the corrupt corporations and politicians currently in office, running the US and the global economy into the ground with the AI bubble. Really sad to see all of this...

As I've been been doing and will continue to do, I will buy NOTHING from microslop, I will not use Windows 11, I will not touch Xbox, and now I won't do ESO+. These companies are bleeding money for the imaginary AI stock values, and it's all going to crash soon enough.

So, if you too are tired of seeing awesome game companies bought up by single corporations like Microsoft, and then being slowly driven into the ground to extract profits, until the next big thing comes along (in this case AI), and then firing all the awesome devs who put their heart and soul into what they do, THEN PROTEST WITH YOUR MONEY, AND VOTE IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS TO REMOVE THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION THAT HAS ENABLED ALL OF THIS!

Leave politics out of this. The current and past administrations have nothing to do with MS layoffs. Try blaming the MS executives who make 100 million or more a year for this. They are the ones spending billions on AI that will implode on them.

What's happening with the global economy, and ESO, is political. I'm sorry you don't want to hear it, but it needs to be said. Please look up what anti-trust laws are, read about Microsoft's acquisition of gaming studios, Microsoft's push for AI in everything they make, and take a few minutes to read up on the AI bubble, then come back and we can have a good faith discussion if you still disagree.

No. Political statements are against the policy.
It does not need to be said and this is not the place to speaking your political opinions.

Perhaps reviewing what is and is not subject to anti-trust would be a good exercise for you. Perhaps.

I genuinely do not care about the censorship rules right now. Everything is falling apart, and now not even our escape in ESO is safe, or the creatives/devs/community moderators who made the game what it was. And don't worry, <snip>, they hear you loud in clear, no discussions of the cause of what's happening today because that's "political". I'm so sick of everything being labeled "political" and any real discussion on any real forum in any real community being shutdown. THIS IS WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS, NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT THE CAUSE OF ANYTHING, JUST THOUGHTS AND BEST WISHES

<snipped due to Discussing Disciplinary Actions>

Sentinel · July 10

CAB_Life wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

AI is wildly profitable right now since it sucks up investor funding like nothing else.

The first part of that statement is 100% false. AI is wildly, insanely unprofitable. Recently, the press reported on OpenAI's leaked financials. Their revenue grew impressively from $3.7B to $13.07B from 2024 to 2025, but their operating losses grew just as impressively from $8.78B in 2024 to $20.92B in 2025.

Let that sink in for a moment... OpenAI's losses in 2024 is more than the $7.5B Microsoft paid to buy Bethesda. Their losses in 2025 were enough to buy nearly three Bethesdas.

This is why AI is a bubble. Companies are pouring money into AI even though it is INSANELY unprofitable. There is this myth that somehow AI will turn from this giant money-loser into a giant money-maker, but there is absolutely no sign of this happening. Ford recently was forced to rehire engineers when they realized that the AI that replaced them was doing a worse job and ultimately costing them more.

A big part of the fast adoption of AI is how companies like OpenAI and Anthropic were subsidizing its use. They charged subscriptions, where people would pay something like $100 a month, but the amount of compute that they used would cost the company $1000 per month, which is why these companies are losing money hand over fist. The deeply unpopular announcement of GitHub CoPilot's pricing model going from an "all you can eat" subscription to "a la carte" is them trying to get people to pay the actual costs, but the result is people suddenly realizing just how expensive AI actually is and abandoning GitHub CoPilot in favor of a service that still offers these money-losing all-you-can-eat subscriptions.

One example that is widely reported is Uber. When Anthropic forced their business customers to pay for actual usage instead of a cheap money-losing subscription, Uber blew through their entire annual AI budget in just a few months and are now pulling back on AI. And even Nvidia admitted that AI costs more than humans (the only reason people like Jeremy here don't realize that is because these AI companies are losing tens of billions every year to shield people from the true cost so that they can maintain the myth that LLMs will soon take over the world).

LLMs are not profitable, not even close. They are insanely expensive and inefficient, on top of being actually bad because of their inherent hallucinatory nature (which OpenAI admitted in a research paper is an unsolvable problem because of how LLMs work on a fundamental level). But billions are being poured into it each year because this is the tulip of the 2020's.

Your entire argument exists on the idea that AI will stay in the current state of competence that is has today. When, in fact, even as I type this sentence it has evolved workflows, competencies and new chains. That’s just how it works—it’s objectively better than pure human output, especially when paired with a talented human who understands LLMS, workflows and app side integrations. Again, Chinese game developers are already using AI—to great success—in 99% of their output. Will there be a massive upfront investment with many failed investors, startups and gold-rush like fails? Of course. Does it need to be profitable? No, it will be invested in regardless until it is profitable or has achieved the market penetration these companies seek. Profitability will come once the expansionism and growth slows. That is just the reality of it. A year ago, it was common to see AI art with six fingers. Now you almost never see anatomical inconsistencies. The very nature of machine learning is that it is constant, perpetual and inclined toward optimization. The machines will get there despite humanity’s best efforts to be chaotic and disruptive. Google has some very disturbing internal data that they’ve done their best to bury on how advanced the REAL models are, which we have no access to. If I recall AI pioneer and former Google researcher Geoffrey Hinton issued some doomsday like warnings regarding the tech. Still, I’d like to think we’ll end up somewhere closer to the late Ian M. Bank’s vision of AI than anything apocalyptic.

Will the cost in energy continue to climb? All signs point to no, as every piece of technology, once past the growing pains enters a period of refinement and resource management/ efficiency. Part of the issue is many Western economies have spent 10 or 20 years strangling their resource sectors for ideological goals, and now they’re suddenly about-face and thirsty for power. Mark Carney, king of eco-economics and his sudden thirst for pipelines, oil and nuclear reactors such is the clearest indicator of this. He literally wrote a book on climate economies and the need for less power, less footprints, less tech. Anyway, this isn’t a political discussion, and I’m only mentioning the above for purposes of AI/ energy/ cost.

There are a lot of people from the (justifiably) fearful to outright Luddites who will decry this technology, but it is here, it will be ubiquitous and it will be baked into every facet of your life and workplace whether you want it or not. I’m not an advocate of this level of presumptive need or enforcement, personally, and as an artist I have found this change jarring and unsettling (though I am learning to adapt). I am, however, a realist about where we will be with the tech in 10 years.

One thing I am going to have to point out here is that the statement about energy costs is inaccurate. One of the largest grid operators in the USA (PJM) has been unable to procure enough energy capacity to meet the data center demand growth in VA, MD, PA and OH. This is unlikely to abate any time soon as gas turbine manufacturers are already fully booked. AI can be many things, but its energy usage is not a cheap cost, nor is it likely to stay as cheap as it is today for long. Microsoft and many other AI companies are finding energy costs as an increasingly important part of their financial woes.

reazea · July 10

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Kilthor69 wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Just one of an endless list of reasons to hate the AI, data centers, Nvidia, Microslop, and the rest of the corrupt corporations and politicians currently in office, running the US and the global economy into the ground with the AI bubble. Really sad to see all of this...

As I've been been doing and will continue to do, I will buy NOTHING from microslop, I will not use Windows 11, I will not touch Xbox, and now I won't do ESO+. These companies are bleeding money for the imaginary AI stock values, and it's all going to crash soon enough.

So, if you too are tired of seeing awesome game companies bought up by single corporations like Microsoft, and then being slowly driven into the ground to extract profits, until the next big thing comes along (in this case AI), and then firing all the awesome devs who put their heart and soul into what they do, THEN PROTEST WITH YOUR MONEY, AND VOTE IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS TO REMOVE THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION THAT HAS ENABLED ALL OF THIS!

Leave politics out of this. The current and past administrations have nothing to do with MS layoffs. Try blaming the MS executives who make 100 million or more a year for this. They are the ones spending billions on AI that will implode on them.

What's happening with the global economy, and ESO, is political. I'm sorry you don't want to hear it, but it needs to be said. Please look up what anti-trust laws are, read about Microsoft's acquisition of gaming studios, Microsoft's push for AI in everything they make, and take a few minutes to read up on the AI bubble, then come back and we can have a good faith discussion if you still disagree.

No. Political statements are against the policy.
It does not need to be said and this is not the place to speaking your political opinions.

Perhaps reviewing what is and is not subject to anti-trust would be a good exercise for you. Perhaps.

I genuinely do not care about the censorship rules right now. Everything is falling apart, and now not even our escape in ESO is safe, or the creatives/devs/community moderators who made the game what it was. And don't worry, I've already gotten warned by the mods, they hear you loud in clear, no discussions of the cause of what's happening today because that's "political". I'm so sick of everything being labeled "political" and any real discussion on any real forum in any real community being shutdown. THIS IS WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS, NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT THE CAUSE OF ANYTHING, JUST THOUGHTS AND BEST WISHES

People who expect to get respect from me soon learn they have to give me respect at the same time in order for their expectations to be met. Just say'n.

DanteTheDeviant · July 10

reazea wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Kilthor69 wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Just one of an endless list of reasons to hate the AI, data centers, Nvidia, Microslop, and the rest of the corrupt corporations and politicians currently in office, running the US and the global economy into the ground with the AI bubble. Really sad to see all of this...

As I've been been doing and will continue to do, I will buy NOTHING from microslop, I will not use Windows 11, I will not touch Xbox, and now I won't do ESO+. These companies are bleeding money for the imaginary AI stock values, and it's all going to crash soon enough.

So, if you too are tired of seeing awesome game companies bought up by single corporations like Microsoft, and then being slowly driven into the ground to extract profits, until the next big thing comes along (in this case AI), and then firing all the awesome devs who put their heart and soul into what they do, THEN PROTEST WITH YOUR MONEY, AND VOTE IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS TO REMOVE THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION THAT HAS ENABLED ALL OF THIS!

Leave politics out of this. The current and past administrations have nothing to do with MS layoffs. Try blaming the MS executives who make 100 million or more a year for this. They are the ones spending billions on AI that will implode on them.

What's happening with the global economy, and ESO, is political. I'm sorry you don't want to hear it, but it needs to be said. Please look up what anti-trust laws are, read about Microsoft's acquisition of gaming studios, Microsoft's push for AI in everything they make, and take a few minutes to read up on the AI bubble, then come back and we can have a good faith discussion if you still disagree.

No. Political statements are against the policy.
It does not need to be said and this is not the place to speaking your political opinions.

Perhaps reviewing what is and is not subject to anti-trust would be a good exercise for you. Perhaps.

I genuinely do not care about the censorship rules right now. Everything is falling apart, and now not even our escape in ESO is safe, or the creatives/devs/community moderators who made the game what it was. And don't worry, I've already gotten warned by the mods, they hear you loud in clear, no discussions of the cause of what's happening today because that's "political". I'm so sick of everything being labeled "political" and any real discussion on any real forum in any real community being shutdown. THIS IS WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS, NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT THE CAUSE OF ANYTHING, JUST THOUGHTS AND BEST WISHES

People who expect to get respect from me soon learn they have to give me respect at the same time in order for their expectations to be met. Just say'n.

I don't know what I said that was directed at you, I genuinely did not mean to be disrespectful. I just want things to get better for everyone, but I'm powerless to do anything about it, at least not without others also caring and taking action...

reazea · July 10

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Kilthor69 wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Just one of an endless list of reasons to hate the AI, data centers, Nvidia, Microslop, and the rest of the corrupt corporations and politicians currently in office, running the US and the global economy into the ground with the AI bubble. Really sad to see all of this...

As I've been been doing and will continue to do, I will buy NOTHING from microslop, I will not use Windows 11, I will not touch Xbox, and now I won't do ESO+. These companies are bleeding money for the imaginary AI stock values, and it's all going to crash soon enough.

So, if you too are tired of seeing awesome game companies bought up by single corporations like Microsoft, and then being slowly driven into the ground to extract profits, until the next big thing comes along (in this case AI), and then firing all the awesome devs who put their heart and soul into what they do, THEN PROTEST WITH YOUR MONEY, AND VOTE IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS TO REMOVE THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION THAT HAS ENABLED ALL OF THIS!

Leave politics out of this. The current and past administrations have nothing to do with MS layoffs. Try blaming the MS executives who make 100 million or more a year for this. They are the ones spending billions on AI that will implode on them.

What's happening with the global economy, and ESO, is political. I'm sorry you don't want to hear it, but it needs to be said. Please look up what anti-trust laws are, read about Microsoft's acquisition of gaming studios, Microsoft's push for AI in everything they make, and take a few minutes to read up on the AI bubble, then come back and we can have a good faith discussion if you still disagree.

No. Political statements are against the policy.
It does not need to be said and this is not the place to speaking your political opinions.

Perhaps reviewing what is and is not subject to anti-trust would be a good exercise for you. Perhaps.

I genuinely do not care about the censorship rules right now. Everything is falling apart, and now not even our escape in ESO is safe, or the creatives/devs/community moderators who made the game what it was. And don't worry, I've already gotten warned by the mods, they hear you loud in clear, no discussions of the cause of what's happening today because that's "political". I'm so sick of everything being labeled "political" and any real discussion on any real forum in any real community being shutdown. THIS IS WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS, NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT THE CAUSE OF ANYTHING, JUST THOUGHTS AND BEST WISHES

People who expect to get respect from me soon learn they have to give me respect at the same time in order for their expectations to be met. Just say'n.

I don't know what I said that was directed at you, I genuinely did not mean to be disrespectful. I just want things to get better for everyone, but I'm powerless to do anything about it, at least not without others also caring and taking action...

Apologies. I was not referring to you.

IZZEFlameLash · July 10

Gabriel_H wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

And as more and more people use LLMs, they start discovering the limits of a system that is fundamentally incapable of understanding or reasoning. A LLM is good at creating results that fool people into believing that it can understand or reason but it is--and never will be--capable of such a thing.

Just to add: An LLM's are also good at keeping people engaged, by re-affirming the person's prior beliefs. Which is the real danger, and has had real world consequences.

It wouldn't be an issue if people actually fact checks by themselves through reading reputable resources but... they tend to outsource that or just believe whatever AI garbled up. But hey, we are the luddites apparently.

fizzylu · July 10

amuridee wrote: »

Please don't let "ESO" end up with the same fate as "New World".

To be fair, what happened to New World is just the result of Amazons corporate ego and greed. They wanted to pull blockbuster numbers and deemed it a failure just because it didn't, shutting it down in favor to work on a new game... ignorant to the fact that they've now lost the trust of gamers and most won't even be willing to support any game they release going forward.

BretonMage · July 10

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Kilthor69 wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Just one of an endless list of reasons to hate the AI, data centers, Nvidia, Microslop, and the rest of the corrupt corporations and politicians currently in office, running the US and the global economy into the ground with the AI bubble. Really sad to see all of this...

As I've been been doing and will continue to do, I will buy NOTHING from microslop, I will not use Windows 11, I will not touch Xbox, and now I won't do ESO+. These companies are bleeding money for the imaginary AI stock values, and it's all going to crash soon enough.

So, if you too are tired of seeing awesome game companies bought up by single corporations like Microsoft, and then being slowly driven into the ground to extract profits, until the next big thing comes along (in this case AI), and then firing all the awesome devs who put their heart and soul into what they do, THEN PROTEST WITH YOUR MONEY, AND VOTE IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS TO REMOVE THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION THAT HAS ENABLED ALL OF THIS!

Leave politics out of this. The current and past administrations have nothing to do with MS layoffs. Try blaming the MS executives who make 100 million or more a year for this. They are the ones spending billions on AI that will implode on them.

What's happening with the global economy, and ESO, is political. I'm sorry you don't want to hear it, but it needs to be said. Please look up what anti-trust laws are, read about Microsoft's acquisition of gaming studios, Microsoft's push for AI in everything they make, and take a few minutes to read up on the AI bubble, then come back and we can have a good faith discussion if you still disagree.

No. Political statements are against the policy.
It does not need to be said and this is not the place to speaking your political opinions.

Perhaps reviewing what is and is not subject to anti-trust would be a good exercise for you. Perhaps.

I genuinely do not care about the censorship rules right now. Everything is falling apart, and now not even our escape in ESO is safe, or the creatives/devs/community moderators who made the game what it was. And don't worry, I've already gotten warned by the mods, they hear you loud in clear, no discussions of the cause of what's happening today because that's "political". I'm so sick of everything being labeled "political" and any real discussion on any real forum in any real community being shutdown. THIS IS WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS, NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT THE CAUSE OF ANYTHING, JUST THOUGHTS AND BEST WISHES

There's also a big difference between, say, anti-immigrant or anti-LGBT+ rhetoric (which moreover is hate-based), and talking about the economic and political situation that is directly impacting the survival of this game.

disky · July 10

These people were producing some of their best work in years, only to see this happen. Terrible news. I'm sorry, everyone.

RemnantFantasy · July 10

Just want to add to what everyone else here has said. I'm saddened to see all these people being laid off. It's a real shame when things like this happen.

I'd like to thank everyone on that list for their hard work and contribution to ESO and to the ESO community managers for staying in touch with us at what must be a very difficult time. For those who have sadly been laid off, I wish you all the best in whatever comes next for you, and for those who are still present, thank you for keeping the game we all love alive. Rest assured that we, the players, are right behind all of you.

Pixiepumpkin · July 10

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

THIS IS WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS, NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT THE CAUSE OF ANYTHING, JUST THOUGHTS AND BEST WISHES

Wife and I talk about this all the time. How often nothing gets settled, rectified, solved, instead issues revolve and rotate in circles, all because people are not allowed to speak the truth or engage in certain topics.

Instead we throw money at problems left and right, debate over and over day and night, left hand blaming the right hand, right hand blaming the left hand and nothing ever gets done.

And its all because we are not allowed to attack the crux of an issue. This goes for real life, this goes for these forums.

Pixiepumpkin · July 10

BretonMage wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

shadoza wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Kilthor69 wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

Just one of an endless list of reasons to hate the AI, data centers, Nvidia, Microslop, and the rest of the corrupt corporations and politicians currently in office, running the US and the global economy into the ground with the AI bubble. Really sad to see all of this...

As I've been been doing and will continue to do, I will buy NOTHING from microslop, I will not use Windows 11, I will not touch Xbox, and now I won't do ESO+. These companies are bleeding money for the imaginary AI stock values, and it's all going to crash soon enough.

So, if you too are tired of seeing awesome game companies bought up by single corporations like Microsoft, and then being slowly driven into the ground to extract profits, until the next big thing comes along (in this case AI), and then firing all the awesome devs who put their heart and soul into what they do, THEN PROTEST WITH YOUR MONEY, AND VOTE IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS TO REMOVE THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION THAT HAS ENABLED ALL OF THIS!

Leave politics out of this. The current and past administrations have nothing to do with MS layoffs. Try blaming the MS executives who make 100 million or more a year for this. They are the ones spending billions on AI that will implode on them.

What's happening with the global economy, and ESO, is political. I'm sorry you don't want to hear it, but it needs to be said. Please look up what anti-trust laws are, read about Microsoft's acquisition of gaming studios, Microsoft's push for AI in everything they make, and take a few minutes to read up on the AI bubble, then come back and we can have a good faith discussion if you still disagree.

No. Political statements are against the policy.
It does not need to be said and this is not the place to speaking your political opinions.

Perhaps reviewing what is and is not subject to anti-trust would be a good exercise for you. Perhaps.

I genuinely do not care about the censorship rules right now. Everything is falling apart, and now not even our escape in ESO is safe, or the creatives/devs/community moderators who made the game what it was. And don't worry, I've already gotten warned by the mods, they hear you loud in clear, no discussions of the cause of what's happening today because that's "political". I'm so sick of everything being labeled "political" and any real discussion on any real forum in any real community being shutdown. THIS IS WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS, NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT THE CAUSE OF ANYTHING, JUST THOUGHTS AND BEST WISHES

There's also a big difference between, say, anti-immigrant or anti-LGBT+ rhetoric (which moreover is hate-based), and talking about the economic and political situation that is directly impacting the survival of this game.

No, there is no difference. The issue is that you think because someone believes these topics need to be addressed, that they do so in hate, and more often than not that sentiment is the fartest from the truth. The topics you are afraid to discuss directly relate to what is happening and will happen regarding the studio and the game. Its observable, hate not need apply.

shadoza · July 10

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

DanteTheDeviant wrote: »

THIS IS WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS, NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO TALK ABOUT THE CAUSE OF ANYTHING, JUST THOUGHTS AND BEST WISHES

Wife and I talk about this all the time. How often nothing gets settled, rectified, solved, instead issues revolve and rotate in circles, all because people are not allowed to speak the truth or engage in certain topics.

Instead we throw money at problems left and right, debate over and over day and night, left hand blaming the right hand, right hand blaming the left hand and nothing ever gets done.

And its all because we are not allowed to attack the crux of an issue. This goes for real life, this goes for these forums.

There is a place to discuss these issues, but game fora are not that place.
This is the place where we discuss how the layoffs might impact the game.

Sllocsredle · July 11

allochthons wrote: »

I know stating here that I cancelled ESO+ doesn't mean anything.

But when Disney messed with Jimmy Fallon, the hit to Disney+ was enough to be really effective. Maybe if ESO+ memberships crash, that'll let XBox know how stupid this move is.

I find it a little sad that multiple people in Elder Scrolls have lost their jobs, possibly in the future there will be openings?

I do not believe the memberships will crash, we just build another payment processor for the program even if the processor could possibly crash, I would still pay ESO+ just for the purpose of having ESO circulating

I could not imagine being at one of the studios when the stuff hit the fan, I do believe that ESO+ is important because that does pay ZeniMax, misunderstood if the monthly payments like Xbox or PlayStation help pay or that goes directly to Xbox for example like Game Pass that is available each month, I have the Ultimate Pass, have seen the Standard Pass recently available for ESO gameplay, of course we all would like to make monies from the game

Maxxermax · July 11

Sllocsredle wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I know stating here that I cancelled ESO+ doesn't mean anything.

But when Disney messed with Jimmy Fallon, the hit to Disney+ was enough to be really effective. Maybe if ESO+ memberships crash, that'll let XBox know how stupid this move is.

I find it a little sad that multiple people in Elder Scrolls have lost their jobs, possibly in the future there will be openings?

I do not believe the memberships will crash, we just build another payment processor for the program even if the processor could possibly crash, I would still pay ESO+ just for the purpose of having ESO circulating

I could not imagine being at one of the studios when the stuff hit the fan, I do believe that ESO+ is important because that does pay ZeniMax, misunderstood if the monthly payments like Xbox or PlayStation help pay or that goes directly to Xbox for example like Game Pass that is available each month, I have the Ultimate Pass, have seen the Standard Pass recently available for ESO gameplay, of course we all would like to make monies from the game

You think ESO+ pays Zenimax?
And not like that
ESO+ payment 》Microsoft 》Distribution across the entire portfolio (including Microsoft management) 》Zenimax 》and what remains 》 Employees ?

code65536 · July 11

Maxxermax wrote: »

You think ESO+ pays Zenimax?

That doesn't matter. The only thing matters is that it goes into the "money this division makes" column. And when the "money this division makes" gets to be lower than the "money this division costs" column in the spreadsheet, they start sharpening their axes again.

hiyde · July 11

code65536 wrote: »

Maxxermax wrote: »

You think ESO+ pays Zenimax?

That doesn't matter. The only thing matters is that it goes into the "money this division makes" column. And when the "money this division makes" gets to be lower than the "money this division costs" column in the spreadsheet, they start sharpening their axes again.

Or is it when the "money this division makes" gets to be lower than "30% profit"?

ADarklore · July 11

I honestly think the list would be shorter if it listed who is LEFT.

shadoza · July 11

Maxxermax wrote: »

Sllocsredle wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I know stating here that I cancelled ESO+ doesn't mean anything.

But when Disney messed with Jimmy Fallon, the hit to Disney+ was enough to be really effective. Maybe if ESO+ memberships crash, that'll let XBox know how stupid this move is.

I find it a little sad that multiple people in Elder Scrolls have lost their jobs, possibly in the future there will be openings?

I do not believe the memberships will crash, we just build another payment processor for the program even if the processor could possibly crash, I would still pay ESO+ just for the purpose of having ESO circulating

I could not imagine being at one of the studios when the stuff hit the fan, I do believe that ESO+ is important because that does pay ZeniMax, misunderstood if the monthly payments like Xbox or PlayStation help pay or that goes directly to Xbox for example like Game Pass that is available each month, I have the Ultimate Pass, have seen the Standard Pass recently available for ESO gameplay, of course we all would like to make monies from the game

You think ESO+ pays Zenimax?
And not like that
ESO+ payment 》Microsoft 》Distribution across the entire portfolio (including Microsoft management) 》Zenimax 》and what remains 》 Employees ?

Payments for subscription to game services are paid to the game company.
Financially, subsidiary companies operate as if independent with few exceptions: Parent company provides funding for infrastructure and build-outs, Parent company pays federal and state income taxes, Parent company covers the debt when a subsidiary is operating at a loss.
Employees to do get any part of the profits unless there is a profit share plan.
ZeniMax does not have shareholders because it is privately held.

Pixiepumpkin · July 11

shadoza wrote: »

Maxxermax wrote: »

Sllocsredle wrote: »

allochthons wrote: »

I know stating here that I cancelled ESO+ doesn't mean anything.

But when Disney messed with Jimmy Fallon, the hit to Disney+ was enough to be really effective. Maybe if ESO+ memberships crash, that'll let XBox know how stupid this move is.

I find it a little sad that multiple people in Elder Scrolls have lost their jobs, possibly in the future there will be openings?

I do not believe the memberships will crash, we just build another payment processor for the program even if the processor could possibly crash, I would still pay ESO+ just for the purpose of having ESO circulating

I could not imagine being at one of the studios when the stuff hit the fan, I do believe that ESO+ is important because that does pay ZeniMax, misunderstood if the monthly payments like Xbox or PlayStation help pay or that goes directly to Xbox for example like Game Pass that is available each month, I have the Ultimate Pass, have seen the Standard Pass recently available for ESO gameplay, of course we all would like to make monies from the game

You think ESO+ pays Zenimax?
And not like that
ESO+ payment 》Microsoft 》Distribution across the entire portfolio (including Microsoft management) 》Zenimax 》and what remains 》 Employees ?

Payments for subscription to game services are paid to the game company.
Financially, subsidiary companies operate as if independent with few exceptions: Parent company provides funding for infrastructure and build-outs, Parent company pays federal and state income taxes, Parent company covers the debt when a subsidiary is operating at a loss.
Employees to do get any part of the profits unless there is a profit share plan.
ZeniMax does not have shareholders because it is privately held.

Incorrect.

1. Revenue is ultimately consolidated up to the parent.This is standard for subsidiaries in the gaming industry.
2. Subsidiaries operate with some autonomy daily, but are not financially independent. Revenue, profit/loss, expenses are consolidated into Microsofts financials.
3. This is usually the case for any subsidiary or "department" within a company, nothing new here.
4. When Zenimax was privately held, they did have shareholders. Microsoft aquired Zenimax I think in 2021 for 8+ billion. Zenimax answers to higherups at MS, who do have shareholders. So shareholders do have a claim to Zenimax through proxy.

NxJoeyD · July 11

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Incorrect.

1. Revenue is ultimately consolidated up to the parent.This is standard for subsidiaries in the gaming industry.
2. Subsidiaries operate with some autonomy daily, but are not financially independent. Revenue, profit/loss, expenses are consolidated into Microsofts financials.
3. This is usually the case for any subsidiary or "department" within a company, nothing new here.
4. When Zenimax was privately held, they did have shareholders. Microsoft aquired Zenimax I think in 2021 for 8+ billion. Zenimax answers to higherups at MS, who do have shareholders. So shareholders do have a claim to Zenimax through proxy.

This isn’t exactly true.

As a Corporate CFO for nearly 2 decades I can tell you that’s absolutely not correct and, in fact, illegal.

Business entity is a concept that states that each company is its own, separate, entity; and must be treated that way for finance & accounting purposes, even (and especially) with wholly owned subsidiaries.

This means that if a person pays for an ESO+ so subscription or Crowns, the money for those purchases must go to the company which provided the goods or services; in this case, Bethesda.

Now, companies can (and sometimes do) setup agreements that enable a sharing of a portion of revenue or profits in exchange for debt or equity, but, if any such agreement exists it has to be disclosed.

In this case, ZoS nor Microsoft can’t just “funnel” monies from Bethesda up into their own bank accounts simply because they own them. That would constitute “cooking” the books.

Either ZoS or Microsoft could charge Bethesda things like “management fees” as a back door way to transfer SOME of the revenue from Bethesda upward, but, even then, the agreements for any such management fees would have to be disclosed, and, those fees couldn’t constitute all or the lions share of Bethesda’s revenue; otherwise Bethesda wouldn’t be able to pass a certified financial audit, and that’s important because whilst neither ZoS nor Bethesda are publicly traded companies, Microsoft is, and as part of their legally required consolidated financial statements must audit their subsidiaries.

Now Microsoft can manage or otherwise direct & dictate to both ZoS & Bethesda; they absolutely have a right to do that. But, whether or not any Microsoft shareholder has any legal claim to equity within either ZoS or Bethesda would be dependent upon how the companies were acquired. One does not simply “inherit” equity in a subsidiary simply by holding stock in the parent. In fact, many mergers o & acquisitions are structured to prevent that very thing.

So, the long & short, no, neither ZoS nor Microsoft can’t simply pillage or otherwise funnel revenue from Bethesda upward as they see fit. There’s laws and rules that govern revenue recognition.