valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Yeah not going to get worked up over pixels in a video game that primarily revolves around *killing pixels*. There are quests that tell us to kill and outright murder people. Savage werewolfs slaughtering villagers. Vampires draining their victims of blood. Torture. Slavery. Theft. Crazed cults sucking our souls out. An *ongoing war* that we are encouraged to directly participate in.

Not to mention, the game has numerous provisioning items and furnishing items *made of* parts of critters. Some of the armor our characters wear is made of their fur.

Livestock and hunting and fishing and the like are... pretty normal things in a medieval fantasy world. If one doesn't want to kill critters, one can certainly avoid doing so.

Personally I'll continue to play the game my way (where every one of my characters has a story and different motivations and acts differently - one is a vegan bosmer, another is a sneaky hunter, another is a noble paladin who tries to do no harm, one is an evil vampire, while another is a thief - it's fantasy folks. I am actually none of these things in real life.) and try to save my moral outrage for actual issues IRL.

I will say that it's unfortunate that zos introduced this task in a bugged state and I'm looking forward to it being fixed so folks can move into some of the instanced areas and the overland slaughter can calm down a bit (but this will also happen naturally as the I MUST FINISH THIS TASK RIGHT NOW crowd starts to finish).

Darn, I always thought you were a vampire. 🧛‍♂️ 😉

And I killed hundreds of sheep for an achievement.

Do I feel a little bad when I kill little creatures? Yeah, I remember killing a lynx in Black Drake Villa and apologizing to everyone because I hit it on impulse and felt terrible for the poor kitty. But as others have said, it’s a video game and the removal of these creatures being killable is a loss of quality of life.

I would also be careful on the empathy arguments. People can have functioning empathy without being empathetic towards *everything*. What really matters is if people treat people, animals, and plants well in real life.

Completely understand and for five years lived by this very creed. THEN, I realized the truth of the alternate reality known as ESO..... every single Nixad, Heron, etc., RESPAWNS WITHIN MINUTES.

And guess what? They respawn happier and healthier than ever!!! I kid you not, just look at how happy they are (lol). So there is no death, there is only a Phoenix-like rebirth for these pixel-critters.

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

Completely understand and for five years lived by this very creed. THEN, I realized the truth of the alternate reality known as ESO..... every single Nixad, Heron, etc., RESPAWNS WITHIN MINUTES.

And guess what? They respawn happier and healthier than ever!!! I kid you not, just look at how happy they are (lol). So there is no death, there is only a Phoenix-like rebirth for these pixel-critters.

What's weird is that they respawn while their dead bodies are still on the ground and completely ignore them.

I don't know ahat that says from a lore point of view, but it does seem a bit odd for a video game - in other games I've played, "garbage collection" would have cleaned them all up either before or at respawn. Shrugs

This game's playerbase cannot possibly sink any lower than this right? Right??

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

Completely understand and for five years lived by this very creed. THEN, I realized the truth of the alternate reality known as ESO..... every single Nixad, Heron, etc., RESPAWNS WITHIN MINUTES.

And guess what? They respawn happier and healthier than ever!!! I kid you not, just look at how happy they are (lol). So there is no death, there is only a Phoenix-like rebirth for these pixel-critters.

Can you really be sure that it is the same one though?

whitecrow wrote: »

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

Completely understand and for five years lived by this very creed. THEN, I realized the truth of the alternate reality known as ESO..... every single Nixad, Heron, etc., RESPAWNS WITHIN MINUTES.

And guess what? They respawn happier and healthier than ever!!! I kid you not, just look at how happy they are (lol). So there is no death, there is only a Phoenix-like rebirth for these pixel-critters.

Can you really be sure that it is the same one though?

Absolutely sure! They even told me so XD

BretonMage wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

I'm going to assume this is a joke post/satire or something, but in case it isn't...I hate to say this, but it's a game. If you don't want to kill animals you don't have to, but let's not try to impose real-world morals on a video game or claim that 'killing' pixels on a screen is 'slaughter'. Also you already seem to know that mobs in Delves/Dungeons not counting is a bug, so the whole "is this fair" thing is kind of a moot point anyway.

If we feel our sensibilities stung by senseless slaughter, it's because it's natural for people with functioning empathy to feel for the suffering of others, and often even when we know the others aren't real. I mean, if games are "just games", what's the point of feeling moved by the characters of Baldur's Gate or Expedition 33? Or, for that matter, Romeo and Juliet?

Not saying I'd actually condemn the players who kill innocents in the game, but it's not pleasant to see either.

That whole "people with functioning empathy" line is a hell of a statement, because it implies people who kill non-living things in a game somehow lack it. I'm one of the most empathatic people I know, I cry super easily when others are upset or during sad scenes in games or movies. I abhor real-world violence and it gets me REALLY mad when I hear about things like animals or people being abused or killed. But there is a big difference between getting emotionally attached to characters and getting emotionally attached to Random NPC Animal #5,301.

I'm not going to dictate how you play your game, and honestly, if I want to feel emotions like pity or compassion for those in a fictional fantasy universe created to seem life-like, then I think I have that freedom to do so. That's one of the great things about games, you have a choice to relate to it in the way you want. So just as you can choose to treat these animals as mere pixels, so too can I choose to see Tamriel as a living, breathing world.

Except...they AREN'T created to seem life-like. They walk back and forth infinitely on a coded path, do coded actions like occasionally like fighting another or sitting, they don't eat, procreate, drink, expel waste, and so on.

Like someone else said, you can feel a certain way about things but there comes a point where it's taken to extremes. But the thing I most have a problem with is your implication that people who treat the game as a game and nothing more somehow lack "functional empathy".

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Dogs and cats aren't killable because ESO is based in the United States, where those animals are pets and NOT game or livestock animals. But all the animals you CAN kill? They are actually hunted irl (the ones that exist irl anyway) for food and other things, or are livestock animals that are raised as food or for leather, milk, and so on. Pigs, goats, squirrels, rabbits, elk, deer, etc are all animals that get hunted or raised as livestock.

You say, "Cats and dogs are pets, so it's only right that they're unkillable." But in this game, you can kill people... what's the logic?
Actually, there's no logic.
I'm not shocked by killing people; in fact, I do it often with my nightblade.
It's an action that requires a certain skill, so it makes sense in a game.
I kill mudcrabs because they give me chitin, but these are animals that have a health line on their heads and, even if weak, they defend themselves in a certain way and attack if attacked.
But killing animals with 1 hp, which mostly don't give anything I already have tons of in my infinite bag, just for the fun of watching them moan and blow up... disgusts me. And I'm annoyed that ZOS encourages it.
In fact, ZOS should provide a toggle so that anyone who wants to can avoid inadvertently killing them, as well as a "prevent attacking innocents" feature.
This game has repeatedly demonstrated its consideration for the rights of minorities.
I am part of a minority, of which I am proud.
The minority of those who have total respect for animals and don't even eat them, obviously.
I regret that the sensibilities of this minority are not protected by ZOS like other minorities worthy of equal respect.

What are you talking about, no logic? There IS logic, even if you don't like it or agree with it. Whether it's people or animals, it's still A GAME. Neither real people nor real animals are being harmed in any way.

On top of that, you're making COMPLETELY and frankly inappropriate claims that people "do it for fun" or want to "hear them moan". You're 100% projecting real-life morals to, yet again, a video game. You're acting like people are doing this becuase they want to geninuely harm animals or something. By that logic, I guess that means people who play evil characters must condone and want to do the things their characters do?

Sure, ZOS can make it that "Prevent Attacking Innocents" applies to critters, but that would probably annoy people more than it wouldn't if they wanted to not attack people but then had to turn it off to farm critters. The most use it would get is so people didn't drop their Ult on a random rabbit or something while fighting. And they could make a separate toggle for it, sure, but it's unlikely they would because who even knows what kind of coding that would look like.

Finally, stop bringing up minorities. They have no place in this conversation and trying to shoehorn them in is comparing apples to tires. You aren't a "minority" because you don't like that critters can be killed and are bothered by it. Trying to use them to prop up your argument is NOT a good look.

zenonuk wrote: »

I often go rabbit shooting in Wrothgar... it's how I feed my family. I go there because those cute black furry bunnies are so easy prey on that pure white snow. I sort of jest, but it's also true. Braised Rabbit is so tasty.

I'm not sure the quest/challenge is the issue. The problem is that people seem to want to complete it in hours/days, rather than the 80+ days that the season has left to run (this is a SEASONAL not weekly challenge after all). There is no rush to finish this particular quest/challenge, but people feel the need to do so. I don't think that is the fault of ZOS in the round.

Reason many of us want to complete this type of challenge in a day or two is cos it's boring and tedious and we want it done and out if the way. We rather domsomething satisfying with our time on eso,like dungeons or infiate archives or trials and such activities.

I killed a few bunnies and Bastion told me I was being needlessly cruel and I stopped.

I think we need to take the emotions out of this tbh.

People who are upset about the critters dying are not overly emotional, they just dont like seeing visualizations of death and are sensitive to artistic non-real enactments of suffering. They dont like seeing things that are "optional" enemies in their eyes needlessly be killed. That is fine.

The people who are killing the critters are not emotionally stunted and don't enjoy punching puppies in the real world. Im pretty sure that if anyone saw someone setting fire and clubbing defenseless wild animals in the real world, most of us would stop them and would be upset. However, in the game they recognize the critters on the screen are not real and cannot suffer, thus are not given the emotional grief that is given to real creatures in the real world. That is fine.

It is just a difference in perceiving an art form (and yes video games and its graphics is an art form). Neither perspectives is wrong, or is inherently BETTER then the other. Thus, you cannot use one perspective to force changes in the game, because you diminish the perspective of the other which is no greater.

Instead, we should be be deciding things based on the game itself.

1) killing 1000 creatures is tedious to do

2) Limiting it to a couple zones creates needless competition between players.

3) They need better quests. A lot of people do not have a lot of time to do things in game. So if killing 1000 mobs is going to be what the seasonal endeavors are going to look for the next couple of times, then I will probably not be participating as I would rather spend time questing or doing something much more interesting then standing in the same zone waiting for mobs to respawn for the 100th time.

Soarora wrote: »

I would also be careful on the empathy arguments. People can have functioning empathy without being empathetic towards *everything*. What really matters is if people treat people, animals, and plants well in real life.

No argument there. I happen to dislike the tendency to armchair psychoanalyse strangers so common on social media these days, so that's not what I'm doing here. People can have different reasons for doing or enjoying the things they do.

Some of us enjoy being somewhat immersed in our fantasy world, though of course this being an MMO, we share the space with those who just see targets to aim at. Which is expected. However I don't really need to be lectured that these are just pixels by the latter group. I mean, obviously I know that, but I pay to experience a fantasy world, so I'd like to be able to enjoy it in one of the intended ways and without judgement or condescension.

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

Rishikesa108 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

What are you talking about, no logic? There IS logic, even if you don't like it or agree with it. Whether it's people or animals, it's still A GAME. Neither real people nor real animals are being harmed in any way.

Aren't dogs and cats pixels too?
Why can't these animals be killed if reality has nothing to do with it, if it's just a game, if they're all just pixels?
Why are obscene acts like teabagging strictly and rightly prohibited if they're just pixels doing things to other pixels?

It's true, we're in a video game, but in reality, there are people behind the keyboards, with feelings.
The pixels are realistic, and we're playing in an immersive environment.
I don't find anything strange in feeling disgusted at killing innocent creatures who can't even defend themselves.
I find it weirder when someone does it without even a flinch.

The difference between pixels is whether or not there is a real person using those pixels as a depiction/avatar of themselves, then it becomes player vs player which is why there are all kinds of rules regarding interactions within that context. Pixels that are not avatars of real people do not have the same rules, nor should they or we would not have a game at all. Imagine the protests for the trampled rights of lich, imps, or Molag Bal, real life protesters all lined up outside Zenimax HQ.

So, immersing yourself in the avatar is correct, but immersing yourself in the surrounding environment is not?

BretonMage wrote: »

No argument there. I happen to dislike the tendency to armchair psychoanalyse strangers so common on social media these days, so that's not what I'm doing here. People can have different reasons for doing or enjoying the things they do.

Some of us enjoy being somewhat immersed in our fantasy world, though of course this being an MMO, we share the space with those who just see targets to aim at. Which is expected. However I don't really need to be lectured that these are just pixels by the latter group. I mean, obviously I know that, but I pay to experience a fantasy world, so I'd like to be able to enjoy it in one of the intended ways and without judgement or condescension.

You get the point.

It's always interesting because I think there is validity in both aspects of folks' arguments. Obviously there are some things that are barred from existing as "pixels". We can't rip the children of tamriel in twain (Skyrim). Our characters can't exist without underwear (even just on our screen and nobody else's). We can't Pomegranate Banquet with NPCs.
There are some degree of ethics/morals present in virtual environments.

So then where/why does the line get drawn in the ways it does? Why is it acceptable gameplay to rob, murder, and soul traps a bunch of innocent women NPCs in Sentinel? If it's just because it's pixels on a screen and being done to only NPCs why can't players Molag Bal the NPCs too? And why are kids in Skyrim excluded from becoming murder victims, meanwhile players can assassinate a bride by dropping a statue on her at her own wedding?

I've never been able to find a satisfactory answer that explains both viewpoints simultaneously. This obviously is not limited to TES, but it's a huge can of worms and so I tried to keep it relevant.

---

I can understand why folks may have an aversion to killing pixel animals. I think it's probably good to be aware of the normalization of violence in media. But I also, personally, would say it's better to allocate those feelings of justice into the real world. An hour responding to replies on forums could be an hour spent volunteering at an animal shelter. An ESO+ sub could be a one time donation to a charity.
I find the idea of this is the closest I could get to respecting both viewpoints at the same time. Let the media feel uncomfortable, and use that as encouragement to do good in the non-pixelated world.