What if we could freely Class change to any Class we have Mastered?

Gunthar · March 22

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

I would agree that we should be able to change classes, especially after the class rework is completed.

I play a sorceress currently, but most of the time, I just use the offensive arcanist tree on her because the offensive abilities of the sorcerer trees are so weak.

BXR_Lonestar · March 23

No, it’s more fun to play with new characters!

Then everyone would be a warden in PVP to abuse Charm, and in PVE, everyone except support would be an arcanist beamer...

Maitsukas · March 23

No, it’s more fun to play with new characters!

And have little to no build variety at all?

Bo0137 · March 23

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

At this point there’s no reason to not allow that. I for one would love to try something else, since I only play with one character

Erickson9610 · March 23

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Then everyone would be a warden in PVP to abuse Charm, and in PVE, everyone except support would be an arcanist beamer...

Maitsukas wrote: »

And have little to no build variety at all?

A Class Change Token wouldn't cause there to be a lack of build variety. It's pretty much just the same as having multiple characters already ready to go and swapping between them.

We don't see people using Race Change Tokens to optimize their builds between runs, so we shouldn't expect people to constantly use Class Change Tokens that way, either. People will make separate characters for each concrete setup, so they don't need to keep spending Crowns — this Class Change Token is really only there for those of us who regret our initial choice of Class, especially because of how much has and is currently changing about them.

Bguk · March 23

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

Erickson9610 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Then everyone would be a warden in PVP to abuse Charm, and in PVE, everyone except support would be an arcanist beamer...

Maitsukas wrote: »

And have little to no build variety at all?

A Class Change Token wouldn't cause there to be a lack of build variety. It's pretty much just the same as having multiple characters already ready to go and swapping between them.

We don't see people using Race Change Tokens to optimize their builds between runs, so we shouldn't expect people to constantly use Class Change Tokens that way, either. People will make separate characters for each concrete setup, so they don't need to keep spending Crowns — this Class Change Token is really only there for those of us who regret our initial choice of Class, especially because of how much has and is currently changing about them.

Great explanation. This would not hurt anyone as players will still play what they want. There are those who will always chase the newest/strongest class. That should not prevent others from changing their class. Also, more choice is better, no?

BXR_Lonestar · March 24

No, it’s more fun to play with new characters!

Erickson9610 wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Then everyone would be a warden in PVP to abuse Charm, and in PVE, everyone except support would be an arcanist beamer...

Maitsukas wrote: »

And have little to no build variety at all?

A Class Change Token wouldn't cause there to be a lack of build variety. It's pretty much just the same as having multiple characters already ready to go and swapping between them.

We don't see people using Race Change Tokens to optimize their builds between runs, so we shouldn't expect people to constantly use Class Change Tokens that way, either. People will make separate characters for each concrete setup, so they don't need to keep spending Crowns — this Class Change Token is really only there for those of us who regret our initial choice of Class, especially because of how much has and is currently changing about them.

If it was a class change token that you have to pay for, that is one thing, but I was under the impression that the OP wanted to be able to change builds willy nilly free of cost and without consequence similar to how we are able to swap in class skill lines without any consideration of cost. The cost of a class change token would be a limiting factor which I think would make this more doable. However, without that cost, being able to swap between classes without consequence would just exacerbate the issues we have now.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · March 24

No, it’s more fun to play with new characters!

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

Bguk · March 24

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

If you're with people who are telling you how to play, you're with the wrong people. I hate this sentiment when people throw around the gatekeeping word when it involves others "forcing" people into playing a certain way. It's a victim mentality. You're the only one gatekeeping yourself by not searching for those who care to play the game similar to how you like to play the game. Everyone can play the game how they like, whether people have requirements or not. Be your own solution as others will not be the solution for you.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · March 25

No, it’s more fun to play with new characters!

Bguk wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

If you're with people who are telling you how to play, you're with the wrong people. I hate this sentiment when people throw around the gatekeeping word when it involves others "forcing" people into playing a certain way. It's a victim mentality. You're the only one gatekeeping yourself by not searching for those who care to play the game similar to how you like to play the game. Everyone can play the game how they like, whether people have requirements or not. Be your own solution as others will not be the solution for you.

Just the opposite. I have never played with people like that. Ive left other guilds who became gatekeepers. Or even thought about it. I unfriend people who engage in this kind of behavior. It ruins the game. It ruins other people's Eso experience. Our guilds don't do that and we clear the same content. I have and will always be on the right side of history regarding this.

BretonMage · March 25

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

Right, forcing people to remain in underperforming classes isn't fair. And therefore classes should be well-balanced. The class change token isn't about that though, it's about letting people play the way they want. Classes are being overhauled right now, who's to say you will still enjoy playing the class you chose 10 years ago?

Besides, as others have mentioned, it won't be abused if you have to pay for the token. And I think it's fair to expect players to pay for a class change token.

BXR_Lonestar · March 25

No, it’s more fun to play with new characters!

BretonMage wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

Right, forcing people to remain in underperforming classes isn't fair. And therefore classes should be well-balanced. The class change token isn't about that though, it's about letting people play the way they want. Classes are being overhauled right now, who's to say you will still enjoy playing the class you chose 10 years ago?

Besides, as others have mentioned, it won't be abused if you have to pay for the token. And I think it's fair to expect players to pay for a class change token.

This is the reason why they give us so many character slots to begin with (8 in total) and why they have made it so easy to powerlevel alt characters by giving you access to your existing champion points and piling on XP scrolls on you. Seriously, what else do you want? Do you ONLY want to play one character?

BretonMage · March 25

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

Right, forcing people to remain in underperforming classes isn't fair. And therefore classes should be well-balanced. The class change token isn't about that though, it's about letting people play the way they want. Classes are being overhauled right now, who's to say you will still enjoy playing the class you chose 10 years ago?

Besides, as others have mentioned, it won't be abused if you have to pay for the token. And I think it's fair to expect players to pay for a class change token.

This is the reason why they give us so many character slots to begin with (8 in total) and why they have made it so easy to powerlevel alt characters by giving you access to your existing champion points and piling on XP scrolls on you. Seriously, what else do you want? Do you ONLY want to play one character?

Well, yes, I'm quite attached to my one character.

Surely there are others who might want to change the class of a particular character for whom the revamped class no longer fits. Options are always good, and if it's priced in a way to discourage abuse, I don't see any drawbacks.

AScarlato · March 25

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

Right, forcing people to remain in underperforming classes isn't fair. And therefore classes should be well-balanced. The class change token isn't about that though, it's about letting people play the way they want. Classes are being overhauled right now, who's to say you will still enjoy playing the class you chose 10 years ago?

Besides, as others have mentioned, it won't be abused if you have to pay for the token. And I think it's fair to expect players to pay for a class change token.

This is the reason why they give us so many character slots to begin with (8 in total) and why they have made it so easy to powerlevel alt characters by giving you access to your existing champion points and piling on XP scrolls on you. Seriously, what else do you want? Do you ONLY want to play one character?

I also want to mostly play just a few characters.

But mostly my main, who sadly is a Necro and I have disliked paying him since they removed Magika Blastbones. I don't like disease/poison aesthetics, so for me that skill is just GONE and replaced by a more annoying skill. At this point I have subclassed and don't use any Necro skill lines at all.

It would be nice to just swap classes entirely if the balance team makes decisions that make huge changes to classes, like they will for every class in the next two years.

I don't want to make an alt because I like having all the quests done on my main, and not spread out over random alts.

NikoSquared · March 26

AScarlato wrote: »

<snip>

I don't want to make an alt because I like having all the quests done on my main, and not spread out over random alts.

Yeah, that’s another thing, some players gain attachment to a single character that they play, whether it’s areas discovered, quests completed, perhaps even notoriety in modes like Battlegrounds or Cyrodiil where people recognize the name and cheer/cower depending on which side they’re on

It’s a lot more than just “grinding hard” or “leveling hard” or even “multi character inventory management is a nightmare”, more than mechanics, it’s memories and history poured into a character, perhaps years worth

Emeratis · March 26

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

Yea, I have 15,000 hours played on my main over my second most played character. While I'd like to play my alts more and recent QOL changes have made me want to play my alts more, there is still a massive gap between my main who has all quests in the game done, alliance rank 50 skill points, all wayshrines every skill/skill line both morphs maxed, every recipe/motif/furnishing plan, etc and my alts. Also, my main has become a comfort character. She's been with me for a decade of my life. I still want to play my alts and enjoy them but the experience is not remotely comparable to my main, nor will it ever probably be due to even fixing logistical issues there is the emotional connection I have to my characters is also not equal.

I know many people who do indeed only play one character, even at higher levels of play. They will respec tank/healer/dps even pre-subclassing and adjust their character as much as they can to continue playing that one.

Make an alt isn't a solution for them, nor should it be used to shut down a huge qol thing that is becoming increasingly needed as class overhauls can sometimes change what people like about a class they've had for up to a decade.Two of us also talked about how even for rp/character driven players their vision of a character can change over time or original class might not fully fit due to how 7 classes in eso do not fully cover not just tes classes in prior games but general rpg archtypes people often want to play (ranger, elementalist, geomancer, etc).

BXR_Lonestar · March 26

No, it’s more fun to play with new characters!

AScarlato wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

Right, forcing people to remain in underperforming classes isn't fair. And therefore classes should be well-balanced. The class change token isn't about that though, it's about letting people play the way they want. Classes are being overhauled right now, who's to say you will still enjoy playing the class you chose 10 years ago?

Besides, as others have mentioned, it won't be abused if you have to pay for the token. And I think it's fair to expect players to pay for a class change token.

This is the reason why they give us so many character slots to begin with (8 in total) and why they have made it so easy to powerlevel alt characters by giving you access to your existing champion points and piling on XP scrolls on you. Seriously, what else do you want? Do you ONLY want to play one character?

I also want to mostly play just a few characters.

But mostly my main, who sadly is a Necro and I have disliked paying him since they removed Magika Blastbones. I don't like disease/poison aesthetics, so for me that skill is just GONE and replaced by a more annoying skill. At this point I have subclassed and don't use any Necro skill lines at all.

It would be nice to just swap classes entirely if the balance team makes decisions that make huge changes to classes, like they will for every class in the next two years.

I don't want to make an alt because I like having all the quests done on my main, and not spread out over random alts.

I prefer to have all my quests done on one character, so that is what I do. I don't need a 100K DPS machine to get through story questlines. Just throw on Seargants + Macabre's Vintage + Oakensoul and you have enough firepower to complete any/all story content.

You can make alt characters that are more optimized for different roles.

BXR_Lonestar · March 26

No, it’s more fun to play with new characters!

BretonMage wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

Right, forcing people to remain in underperforming classes isn't fair. And therefore classes should be well-balanced. The class change token isn't about that though, it's about letting people play the way they want. Classes are being overhauled right now, who's to say you will still enjoy playing the class you chose 10 years ago?

Besides, as others have mentioned, it won't be abused if you have to pay for the token. And I think it's fair to expect players to pay for a class change token.

This is the reason why they give us so many character slots to begin with (8 in total) and why they have made it so easy to powerlevel alt characters by giving you access to your existing champion points and piling on XP scrolls on you. Seriously, what else do you want? Do you ONLY want to play one character?

Well, yes, I'm quite attached to my one character.

Surely there are others who might want to change the class of a particular character for whom the revamped class no longer fits. Options are always good, and if it's priced in a way to discourage abuse, I don't see any drawbacks.

And that was my point. I said earlier, I'd be fine with a class change token for 3500 or 5000 crowns, but my impression from the OP was that you could just swap classes willy nilly using the subclassing machinery, which is an entirely different argument IMO.

BretonMage · March 26

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

Right, forcing people to remain in underperforming classes isn't fair. And therefore classes should be well-balanced. The class change token isn't about that though, it's about letting people play the way they want. Classes are being overhauled right now, who's to say you will still enjoy playing the class you chose 10 years ago?

Besides, as others have mentioned, it won't be abused if you have to pay for the token. And I think it's fair to expect players to pay for a class change token.

This is the reason why they give us so many character slots to begin with (8 in total) and why they have made it so easy to powerlevel alt characters by giving you access to your existing champion points and piling on XP scrolls on you. Seriously, what else do you want? Do you ONLY want to play one character?

Well, yes, I'm quite attached to my one character.

Surely there are others who might want to change the class of a particular character for whom the revamped class no longer fits. Options are always good, and if it's priced in a way to discourage abuse, I don't see any drawbacks.

And that was my point. I said earlier, I'd be fine with a class change token for 3500 or 5000 crowns, but my impression from the OP was that you could just swap classes willy nilly using the subclassing machinery, which is an entirely different argument IMO.

Fair point. I had always assumed any class change would cost us crowns anyway (I mean, we can't even change our appearance for free).

peacenote · March 26

At this point in the game, I'd support the concept of a class change, via the Crown store, at a cost, with a long cooldown (like monthly). I don't think it should be related to subclassing in any way.

Because of the way the poll is worded, I can't respond to it, because I don't think it should be about classes mastered, my answer isn't no or yes, but I'm not advocating for an additional criteria so much as a different one.

There is no limitation to which class you can select if you make a new character. Therefore, if class change was ever introduced, it doesn't make any sense that it would be restricted to what was learned in subclassing. It should be consistent with the logic of class selection. However, ZOS really needs to up their game regarding how rewarding it feels to play multiple characters. Possibly some of the pure class changes will help; I don't know. But since part of the idea behind class identity is that is should be core to your character, I don't think it should be part of optimizing a build to the point of adjusting per boss in a trial or swapping between different classes for PvE and PvP. I sympathize with people who only have one character and want to try another class or ended up with a very unfortunate meta for their favorite playstyle with their class. If ZOS was able to implement it, I think those people should be able to change class if desired.

However, I personally feel that it would be a lot less fun for those of us who like to play alts if class change became a frivolous choice, a tool for min/maxing, and/or if ESO became classless.

AScarlato · March 26

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

Right, forcing people to remain in underperforming classes isn't fair. And therefore classes should be well-balanced. The class change token isn't about that though, it's about letting people play the way they want. Classes are being overhauled right now, who's to say you will still enjoy playing the class you chose 10 years ago?

Besides, as others have mentioned, it won't be abused if you have to pay for the token. And I think it's fair to expect players to pay for a class change token.

This is the reason why they give us so many character slots to begin with (8 in total) and why they have made it so easy to powerlevel alt characters by giving you access to your existing champion points and piling on XP scrolls on you. Seriously, what else do you want? Do you ONLY want to play one character?

I also want to mostly play just a few characters.

But mostly my main, who sadly is a Necro and I have disliked paying him since they removed Magika Blastbones. I don't like disease/poison aesthetics, so for me that skill is just GONE and replaced by a more annoying skill. At this point I have subclassed and don't use any Necro skill lines at all.

It would be nice to just swap classes entirely if the balance team makes decisions that make huge changes to classes, like they will for every class in the next two years.

I don't want to make an alt because I like having all the quests done on my main, and not spread out over random alts.

I prefer to have all my quests done on one character, so that is what I do. I don't need a 100K DPS machine to get through story questlines. Just throw on Seargants + Macabre's Vintage + Oakensoul and you have enough firepower to complete any/all story content.

You can make alt characters that are more optimized for different roles.

I don't care about having a 100K dps for overland quests either. But this still ignores my second point, which is them changing classes around in somewhat extreme ways, sometimes after many years. Like removing entire skills that change how certain classes feel to play - sometimes in ways that aren't as enjoyable anymore.

As others said and I can relate to, sometimes people's characters also shift for RP reasons.

Not everyone plays or cares about min/maxing efficiency, and being able to change could appeal to a wider audience than such players.

aLi3nZ · March 27

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

I would really like to see this as an option. Some people don’t have the time or
Patience to do everything again on multiple charecters. I only habe 1 charecter properly leveled and I just can’t get that done on new ones.

Mages skill line, undaunted, the many skill points required. Come on I’m not doing it and I’m not my paying crowns to purchase them either.

NikoSquared · March 27

peacenote wrote: »

At this point in the game, I'd support the concept of a class change, via the Crown store, at a cost, with a long cooldown (like monthly). I don't think it should be related to subclassing in any way.

Because of the way the poll is worded, I can't respond to it, because I don't think it should be about classes mastered, my answer isn't no or yes, but I'm not advocating for an additional criteria so much as a different one.

<snip>

The reason I worded the poll this way is because it just… makes sense as a requirement. If you’ve already “mastered” a class (meaning skill lines maxed), it means you either leveled all of its skill lines through subclassing, or have another character of that class with them maxed out.

If you’ve already done either those, then why limit the ability for the Character to swap between said classes freely?

peacenote · March 28

NikoSquared wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

At this point in the game, I'd support the concept of a class change, via the Crown store, at a cost, with a long cooldown (like monthly). I don't think it should be related to subclassing in any way.

Because of the way the poll is worded, I can't respond to it, because I don't think it should be about classes mastered, my answer isn't no or yes, but I'm not advocating for an additional criteria so much as a different one.

<snip>

The reason I worded the poll this way is because it just… makes sense as a requirement. If you’ve already “mastered” a class (meaning skill lines maxed), it means you either leveled all of its skill lines through subclassing, or have another character of that class with them maxed out.

If you’ve already done either those, then why limit the ability for the Character to swap between said classes freely?

Well, I partially explained in my previous answer why I personally wouldn't be a fan of that mechanic.

The class identity debate is, unfortunately, one where there isn't really a great compromise for both sides to meet in the middle, so likely we'll just have to agree to disagree, and ZOS will ultimately make the decision based on where they want to take the game. People who enjoy distinct class identities, and people who like to play multiple characters, often enjoy class restrictions and like the idea that selecting your class is not a frivolous choice. It is often the basis for building out multiple characters, for people who enjoy combat challenges and those who enjoy RPG. I'm more in the former camp than the latter, but either way, this is why I personally would be OK with a periodic class change but not one that can happen freely, without a long cooldown.

Now, people who are against frequent class changes could, of course, just choose not to swap classes, while those who want it could use the feature, and that is often the argument used for "compromise." "Just don't use it and let everyone else have their fun." What's rarely understood is how once a major feature gets into the culture and the game world, it changes the overall feel of the game for everyone, permanently. You can try not to use it, and ignore it, but eventually the game just won't be the same. If you're on a competitive team, there's pressure to be the best you can be and adapt for your role. Even if you have, say, a super flexible raid leader who understands your philosophy, you still have to fight the conflict within yourself about staying true to one thing you enjoy (separate classes) vs. another thing you enjoy (being a good teammate). When a new class comes out, less and less of the community will create a new character. You can still do it, but there's less people to do it with. While I know this is already largely diluted/broken, for the sake of trying to make a point bear with me here... in PvP, you might pride yourself on working to counter a challenging opponent based on what you know about the limitations of their class. If they can now go back to base and change their class every 15 minutes, the "fun" of that challenge is ruined for you even if you, yourself, choose not to dynamically change your class frequently. Once the feature is out, slowly but surely across the game world and the community, classes will become less meaningful until you as a player can no longer really 'pretend' that consequence-less class change isn't a thing. That's just not where I personally would prefer ESO to go, based on how I play and enjoy MMOs.

Because this is an MMO, "just don't use it" only really applies in certain kinds of scenarios... and they are rarer than you'd think. As an obvious example, many people are tired of seeing beams everywhere, and/or had some legitimate health issues with the visuals of the arcanist. You can choose not to run an arc yourself, and you can choose not to beam, but they are still everywhere for you to see. As another example, many people don't like companions. Yes, you can choose not to unlock them. But, you see them everywhere. There are quests you can't finish if you ignore them. There are achievements you can't get if you ignore them. They featured heavily in the new Heart's Day holiday. One can choose to ignore companions, but the game world was changed irrevocably once they are introduced, and if you are a person who truly hates the idea of them, your irritation with ESO is going to be triggered every time you run across one.

All of this to say... this idea makes sense to you. But that doesn't mean it will feel right to everyone. And, that's OK. At this point, I may be in the minority with my opinion on this topic, as a lot of people who enjoyed alts quit the game with the introduction of AwA. But I'm still here, and this particular idea would make things a little less fun for me, and I also think it wouldn't be a good idea for the long term health of the game. I did my best to explain why, not to change your mind, but simply to answer your question about why anyone would want to limit character class swapping. It's mostly a philosophical discussion as I don't think it's technically feasible based on what the devs have said to date, but who knows? I'm not a dev and I could be wrong!

SolarRune · March 28

No, it’s more fun to play with new characters!

Given how much this has been requested, and that people are willing to pay for it, i will take them at their word that changing class of a char is very difficult as it's a primary key value of a character - subclassing is not the same and uses different mechs to do - so being reliastic, whilst it would be good, i'm not sure i see this happening any time soon.

Arunei · March 28

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

No. It will get abused. Or even worse exploited. Certain classes should not be insanely ahead of others and now its doubly bad because Subclassing has added the problem of this happening to skill lines as well. Once all the refreshes are done and the biggest offenders like Herald of the Tome and Assassination are broken up, some of this may go away. I don't believe they can blance the Subclassing mess, but here is to hoping.
People must not be severely penalized by what class or race their characters are. It detracts from the game. If you like High Elves AND Nightblades, you shouldn't suffer or be made to be forced into something you dont want to play. Telling someone they have to be a Necro Argonian when they dont like Necro or Argonian is not only gatekeeping, it's flat out exclusion for people who care about their characters.

Right, forcing people to remain in underperforming classes isn't fair. And therefore classes should be well-balanced. The class change token isn't about that though, it's about letting people play the way they want. Classes are being overhauled right now, who's to say you will still enjoy playing the class you chose 10 years ago?

Besides, as others have mentioned, it won't be abused if you have to pay for the token. And I think it's fair to expect players to pay for a class change token.

This is the reason why they give us so many character slots to begin with (8 in total) and why they have made it so easy to powerlevel alt characters by giving you access to your existing champion points and piling on XP scrolls on you. Seriously, what else do you want? Do you ONLY want to play one character?

Uh, a lot of people have very specifically said they only play one character because they want to. Plus everyone always brings up "oh but leveling is so fast and easy!" and completely ignore all the OTHER pain points people have brought up time and again. It ISN'T leveling people have issues with, it's getting all the Skyshards again, maxing Bank and Inventory slots again, getting Mount Training done again, unlocking and maxing various Skill lines like Mages, Undaunted, and Psijic again, and so on and so forth.

They really should come up with a way to to Class changes regardless considering the MASSIVE changes each Class is going to be undergoing over the next year and a half or so. People not wanting to go through getting a whole new character ready for stuff aside, there are people who are at max characters that can't just make a new character to try a Class after the rework, since even a full 20 character roster might not have a character of a certain Class. I have 18 on my main account and only one is a DK, for example, and he's Mag so it's gonna be a pain to level him in Stam stuff to try and Stam builds. Other people might have 20 characters and NONE of them be a DK.

katanagirl1 · March 29

peacenote wrote: »

NikoSquared wrote: »

peacenote wrote: »

At this point in the game, I'd support the concept of a class change, via the Crown store, at a cost, with a long cooldown (like monthly). I don't think it should be related to subclassing in any way.

Because of the way the poll is worded, I can't respond to it, because I don't think it should be about classes mastered, my answer isn't no or yes, but I'm not advocating for an additional criteria so much as a different one.

<snip>

The reason I worded the poll this way is because it just… makes sense as a requirement. If you’ve already “mastered” a class (meaning skill lines maxed), it means you either leveled all of its skill lines through subclassing, or have another character of that class with them maxed out.

If you’ve already done either those, then why limit the ability for the Character to swap between said classes freely?

Well, I partially explained in my previous answer why I personally wouldn't be a fan of that mechanic.

The class identity debate is, unfortunately, one where there isn't really a great compromise for both sides to meet in the middle, so likely we'll just have to agree to disagree, and ZOS will ultimately make the decision based on where they want to take the game. People who enjoy distinct class identities, and people who like to play multiple characters, often enjoy class restrictions and like the idea that selecting your class is not a frivolous choice. It is often the basis for building out multiple characters, for people who enjoy combat challenges and those who enjoy RPG. I'm more in the former camp than the latter, but either way, this is why I personally would be OK with a periodic class change but not one that can happen freely, without a long cooldown.

Now, people who are against frequent class changes could, of course, just choose not to swap classes, while those who want it could use the feature, and that is often the argument used for "compromise." "Just don't use it and let everyone else have their fun." What's rarely understood is how once a major feature gets into the culture and the game world, it changes the overall feel of the game for everyone, permanently. You can try not to use it, and ignore it, but eventually the game just won't be the same. If you're on a competitive team, there's pressure to be the best you can be and adapt for your role. Even if you have, say, a super flexible raid leader who understands your philosophy, you still have to fight the conflict within yourself about staying true to one thing you enjoy (separate classes) vs. another thing you enjoy (being a good teammate). When a new class comes out, less and less of the community will create a new character. You can still do it, but there's less people to do it with. While I know this is already largely diluted/broken, for the sake of trying to make a point bear with me here... in PvP, you might pride yourself on working to counter a challenging opponent based on what you know about the limitations of their class. If they can now go back to base and change their class every 15 minutes, the "fun" of that challenge is ruined for you even if you, yourself, choose not to dynamically change your class frequently. Once the feature is out, slowly but surely across the game world and the community, classes will become less meaningful until you as a player can no longer really 'pretend' that consequence-less class change isn't a thing. That's just not where I personally would prefer ESO to go, based on how I play and enjoy MMOs.

Because this is an MMO, "just don't use it" only really applies in certain kinds of scenarios... and they are rarer than you'd think. As an obvious example, many people are tired of seeing beams everywhere, and/or had some legitimate health issues with the visuals of the arcanist. You can choose not to run an arc yourself, and you can choose not to beam, but they are still everywhere for you to see. As another example, many people don't like companions. Yes, you can choose not to unlock them. But, you see them everywhere. There are quests you can't finish if you ignore them. There are achievements you can't get if you ignore them. They featured heavily in the new Heart's Day holiday. One can choose to ignore companions, but the game world was changed irrevocably once they are introduced, and if you are a person who truly hates the idea of them, your irritation with ESO is going to be triggered every time you run across one.

All of this to say... this idea makes sense to you. But that doesn't mean it will feel right to everyone. And, that's OK. At this point, I may be in the minority with my opinion on this topic, as a lot of people who enjoyed alts quit the game with the introduction of AwA. But I'm still here, and this particular idea would make things a little less fun for me, and I also think it wouldn't be a good idea for the long term health of the game. I did my best to explain why, not to change your mind, but simply to answer your question about why anyone would want to limit character class swapping. It's mostly a philosophical discussion as I don't think it's technically feasible based on what the devs have said to date, but who knows? I'm not a dev and I could be wrong!

I like your description of this, it is well thought out and explained in a way in which I can relate.

Emeratis · March 29

Yes, this would be a good mechanic!

It's slightly off topic but since it got brought up here "class identity" rings hollow for some of us because the class system never really represented our characters or their classes. Morrowind and Oblivion had 21 classes, Skyrim had a more open interpretation of classes. Most ttrpgs and rpgs have about 12-15 very customizable classes. Most other mmos have 12-22 classes.

ESO by comparison has 7 classes, 4 which existed on launch. Dragon Knight, Warden, and Arcanist really didn't exist in their current from in TES before ESO. The 7 classes we have do a terrible job at representing not only former games' TES classes but even other standard fantasy archetypes. Subclassing gave access to some of those classes and archetypes (elementalist, geomancer, ranger, etc), but it isn't perfect and those builds are often still worse than min maxed subclassing builds and base class builds. NPCs in eso have access to way more classes and even skill lines (albeit limited) with up to 65 named classes.

Because of the above, it's hard to get on the "class identity" train just because half of my characters classes were deemed not real/imaginary despite existing in various other fantasy and media, even TES related media, and the base classes only have that identity because they were chose by devs 10 or so years ago over other options.

As for the rest and to bring it back on topic a little, this game started with 4 classes and almost every class has dramatically changed over time. Sometimes that means a character no longer fits a class. I don't understand why people are so insistent on rejecting something that has limited to no effect on them. A person's reason for changing a class shouldn't really matter. Min maxers are going to min max regardless, people who want to do it for rp reasons or other reasons are not more or less valid than others. If groups try to gatekeep and pressure you into rerolling when you don't want to you can walk away and find groups that are more accepting. I've done it for years. I found groups that like playing with me and don't mind that I don't want to min max or change my characters' races or classes or subclass if I don't want to or what have you. Most people won't be playing in groups where it matters anyway, even if you want achievements like tris, you can get them with a lot of wiggle room.

I do agree that some of this is two sides that will never fully see eye to eye, but I also do not see my views being accurately represented by dissenting views so I felt I should at least explain part of this here.

tomofhyrule · March 29

I do completely agree that, at minimum with all of the Class changes that have happened, that a Class Change token would be a good thing for them to put in eventually. A lot of players no longer feel as strongly a connection to the Class they started with for one reason or another.

I don't think that a paid token like this would really change the landscape much, at least not as much as Subclassing did. Yes, people would be pressured to change to the meta. But if the meta required pulling out a credit card, that would give people more ammunition to push back on gatekeeping, unlike right now where the only reason not to go all in for the meta with Subclassing is essentially saying "I don't care enough about my teammates to bring my A-game," which understandably is not cool.

But I do want to make a point about the argument of "metachasing" versus "play the way you want" re: these two quotes:

peacenote wrote: »

Now, people who are against frequent class changes could, of course, just choose not to swap classes, while those who want it could use the feature, and that is often the argument used for "compromise." "Just don't use it and let everyone else have their fun." What's rarely understood is how once a major feature gets into the culture and the game world, it changes the overall feel of the game for everyone, permanently. You can try not to use it, and ignore it, but eventually the game just won't be the same. If you're on a competitive team, there's pressure to be the best you can be and adapt for your role. Even if you have, say, a super flexible raid leader who understands your philosophy, you still have to fight the conflict within yourself about staying true to one thing you enjoy (separate classes) vs. another thing you enjoy (being a good teammate).

Emeratis wrote: »

Min maxers are going to min max regardless, people who want to do it for rp reasons or other reasons are not more or less valid than others. If groups try to gatekeep and pressure you into rerolling when you don't want to you can walk away and find groups that are more accepting. I've done it for years. I found groups that like playing with me and don't mind that I don't want to min max or change my characters' races or classes or subclass if I don't want to or what have you. Most people won't be playing in groups where it matters anyway, even if you want achievements like tris, you can get them with a lot of wiggle room.

Yes, high-level endgamers (trial HMs and above) are going to have to minmax because the HMs are balanced around the high level. But the problem is that there is the canyon between "my group has a 50% success rate on standard vets" and "my group churns out Godslayers every other week" that we currently have - that entire middle section of training for HMs barely exists at present, and update after update has been consistently driving them off (see U33, U35, U46). As such, anyone who has the skill to get into HMs can't get into groups because those groups are pushing the highest of the high-level content with the sweatiest strats... and that precludes some amount of "I want to do HMs, but I want to bring my main who I like playing."

After all, it seems there are a lot of players at the high end who actually like playing without Subclassing. It feels like that's the main reason we see ZOS so awkwardly walking Subclassing back, right? So if so many people like to play without Subclassing... where are all the logs showing people playing without it?
Because those groups which allow you to bring a more off-meta build aren't really capable of doing the high-tier content, and the groups that are capable of that content don't want to use strategies that are not hyperoptimized. It's easy to say "well, then just find a group that allows it!"... until you go looking for the groups that do and realize how few there actually are.

This does bring up a larger topic that I see: the completely and utterly incorrect idea that "someone who likes playing pure class can't be a real Elder Scrolls fan, because the real Elder Scrolls fans all want to mix and match everything for ultimate freedom!" Besides that being a classic logical fallacy, that idea really annoys me, mainly because I love my characters as pure classes, and I wrote their stories specifically around their abilities and honed them that way. I have a minimum of 6+ pages of fully-researched backstory for each of my characters, and they all fit perfectly into the world and its lore as is.
And heck, when I do go back to Skyrim (which I'm overdue for yet another playthrough), I absolutely play it in a way that most other people wouldn't - the buff Orc with zero magic spells whatsoever and only an axe and shield to wreck dragons with. Why? Because I like to play that way. There is room in Skyrim for the stealth archers and the mages and the stonewall tanks and every build style inbetween... so why is it so inconceivable that some Elder Scrolls fans may actually enjoy their rock-stomping, fire-breathing, dragon-hearted warriors just the way they are?

M0ntie · March 29

No, it’s more fun to play with new characters!

Players with 1 character can, you know, play the game and make more characters!
Just get over it. Base class DK currently only has a small advantage over other base classes - not enough for people casual enough to only have 1 character to worry about.
Why should players who have invested hours and $$ to make one of each class lose any benefit they have?