Artisian0001 wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

Further things could be "if you are in a group larger than 6 people in cyrodiil, healing received is reduced by 25 percent" or something like that.

You want to discourage grouping up in a game labeled an MMORPG...I am struggling to make sense of this one.

The funny thing about this suggestion is that this would not stop the ball groups that we are ready to break the game to counter. They would make smaller groups since they coordinate on voice.

This will hurt regular players who just want to play together.

Groups in ESO get too many advantages to be discouraged by 25% healing reduction.
If Ballgroups dont play in a group they loose all Buffs from sets and skills that require grouping.
Loosing 20 Statprocs and Buffskills is a huge gamechanger and too much to give up.

If they remove healing outside group again completely like some players here ask than ungrouped ballgroups will have same healing as a solo player which is still much lower than in group with 25% reduction.

You aren't engaging with the issue though, this would be 25% for a 3 man group. This change is absurd on it's face, but even more absurd when you factor in that it works on smaller groups just as bad. The comments on this thread alone within the past hour have given suggestions that dwarf in intellect the absolute absurdity of whatever lapse in judgement an entire team needed to even suggest implementing this.

The player I defended suggested reducing healing received by 25% for GROUPS LARGER THAN 6 people so your 3 man group is not included. But a coordinated 3man group can still have more healing than a solo player after 25% reduction.

as a continuation to the diminishing returns I suggested

New buff, Major Vigor: heals the player every 2 seconds, based on their own stats and with the same amplification formula I listed before. Echoing Vigor now does nothing on its own, serving as a simple counter to determine the amplitude of the Major Vigor buff.

It consolidates a ball stacking vigors from 12x vigors on 12x targets = 12 ticks per player per two seconds, to 1 Major Vigor tick per player per two seconds (144 total ticks per two seconds down to 12 total).

The ball still gets benefit, with diminishing returns as already described, from vigor stacking (though it won't proc any of the healer sets since it basically changes to self healing), it drastically reduces server checks because there's now only one heal that has to check the player's stats + the number of echo counters, instead of 12 heals with each checking echo caster's stats plus the hotted player for any multipliers.

Solo and smallscale, same deal: there's only ever one Major Vigor healing you every two seconds, though if you're alone without echo stacks Major Vigor does nothing. Then if someone or multiple someones throw an echo it just plugs into the formula to activate and scale the Major Vigor healing, but the healing is still only coming from and scaling off of one source (you) every two seconds, not one to infinity sources every two seconds.

Vigor stacking ends up drastically nerfed at the high end, solo/smallscale players aren't hit anywhere near as hard but do lose some healing from echo stacking vs live, and then server calculations/checks should end up lighter than live in the end.

Erissime wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

You have no understanding of the TOS if you think a ballgroup running down smaller groups or solo players is against TOS.

True, because this particular case is not stated in TOS as such. Gamebreaking though is. Thank you for admitting it.

Bro, what are you even saying? lmao Please keep the conversation on topic, you are just making things up for no reason to derail the thread.

Ostonoha wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Ostonoha wrote: »

Can’t wait for ball groups to adjust (as they always do) by stacking as much shielding as possible and finding any and all heals that don’t count towards this debuff so they keep survival strong and the pug Zergs get a 50% heal debuff due to no coordination of skills leading to over cross healing debuffing themselves.

This is clearly a well thought out plan by ZOS. Only people who have actual experience in PvP could come up with such a concept.

I have to seriously ask. Do you people actually PvP? At this point I’m convinced they don’t as all their “fixes” are terrible and or backfire. Really at this point. ZOS should spend time with their people actually playing in eso pvp groups and learn all sides. Spend one month with some “zerg” guilds. See what they do. (No offense on the name just can’t think of what else to say) 1 month playing with small scalers. 1 month in a ball group. Get an idea of what’s going on instead of what appears to just be throwing darts at a board.

Remember the last time an ESO dev streamed PvP and he called his own build a "troll build" where he proceeded to do absolutely nothing during a streamed BG event with Sypher and go like 0-10 every game slowly dying while holding block? These are the same people who think of these changes and these are also the people who complain about ballgroups being too dominant while having zero understanding of the game, and zero gameplay ability. They do not play the game, if they do it's rare, if they do often they care more about housing. Nobody on the PvP dev team is actively participating in PvP, if they were you would see their names, and you never do.

I do remember.


I also remember watching them do basic pve and having a hard time.

Look I get it. This is a job for them. It’s not what they do all the time it’s a job. But at some point for the job ya gotta learn. I’m pretty sure if they jumped in with actual groups and I’m not talking some streamer group. Log in at different times or prime time. See the guilds and groups on. See what they do. Join different groups and get an idea of what is being done. I’m convinced they do not know how their own game works. But sadly it seems like most people who play don’t know either


The simple fix here is to return to the old school style cap on buffs.

U get 3 vigors max on you. Ext

Bring back heal debuffs. You used to be able to hit like 76% heal debuff.

Lower damage AND healing.


Allow stam and mag to increase damage again so people are not 35k health dps anymore.

But sadly with all the scribing. Mythics. New sets. Sub classing. This game is just a damn mess balance wise.

I agree, but I also think they don't want to know. They prefer being ignorant to the actual issues which is why we get these sweeping changes without any real thought. It's extremely out of touch and even insulting to have something this absurd as a change. A 50% heal reduction to basically any group above 3 is a joke.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just chatted with the combat team. For those who think this change needs more work, we’re passing this feedback on so our teams can iterate on this. Please make sure to clearly express your feedback so we can take it into account during adjustments.

i have been in BIG support of ESO using " battle spirit " to control healing in PVP zones and tho cutting hot's to 3 is an great start adding the 50% to all heals thereafter is an lil bit much , i could see trying at15-25% but jumping right to 50% sounds like you want to push solo and small scale out of PVP and just make it for zergs and ballgroups

Blood_again wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Great change, my only concern is that this HoT check does not differentiate between self-applied heals and foreign ones. I feel like this is an important distinction.

Expecting trolls who spam Regeneration all around in Cyrodiil after patch 49.

See. The problem is. Before Patch 49, you would not be considered a troll... you'd be considered helpful. And this is a pretty big issue, if you ask me.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Yeah this is madness. So now if a random proc healer runs by you and slaps on hots, now your own healing is going to be gutted. Cant wait to be 1vXing and the most dangerous part is when a random teammate shows up trying to heal me thinking he is helping but instead cuts my healing by 50%.

Couldn't be more clear than this; perfect summary.

@ZOS_Kevin, since you asked, I'm going to expand a bit on playstyles here. I believe I made a post on this a while back but it would be faster for me to just summarize again, I think.

Imo, this change was conceived from the perspective of considering damage dealers (or groups of damage dealers) who "abuse" self heals to be impossible to kill, or PvP tank griefers who distract but almost never die. It also seems more to be from the perspective that people are running in large groups and have sufficient heals with them, such that they're benefiting from more healing than should be accessible to a single group.

First of all, not all of us want to join a big group when participating in the large fights in Cyrodiil. This is for a few reasons.

1. It's been much tougher to find groups to join since the group size was changed from 24 to 12. The longer PvP has been "under siege" (haha), the less people are playing, so there just aren't a lot of people grouping up and whatnot. I stopped trying to spam zone and join groups a long time ago.
2. Not everyone wants to join comms or be that coordinated, but can still help arrive in larger fights and turn the tide of battle. Frankly I think this is the most fun IN Cyrodiil... showing up solo or duo and impacting what's going on.
3. ESO doesn't have a dynamic group merge (Rift was a game I played that did), so if it's common practice (it is for me) to jump into Cyro with one or two other friends, and kind of be rogue agents, going with the wind and popping around, it's a royal pain to ungroup, have your little subgroup try to get into the same larger group, and then disband and regroup all the time when you decide to move on. It's not smooth or clean or fun or, at the moment, necessary.

What this potential change means, as-is, is that solo players or small groups will frequently be considered trolls or disruptions on their own side if this change goes live as is, when they're only trying to help, and the people who enjoy this kind of play style will likely stop playing. Most people don't want to be constantly yelled at or criticized by their own team. And, as I explained above, there are reasons why people might prefer to not bother with grouping. I mention this preemptively as the next logical thought will be "well, then make it so you can only receive healing from your own group" or something like that. But that would, again, kill this playstyle.

Second, some of us enjoy being supports. We actually make builds with the primary aim of being able to heal up a group or random people we meet across the battlefield. I love my PvP healers. I never play in organized groups. A good chunk of my characters and my favorite role will have nothing to offer the battle at all if my team mates either get angry that I'm healing them or can't receive my healing at all. Not EVERYONE is DPS-focused. Are there not medics in wars?!?

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

Nerfing ball groups, sure fine. But if this is gonna be a thing you should remove the ability to apply sticky hots to people you're not grouped with, otherwise it becomes very easy for people to troll and abuse their own faction; throw a few hots around and halve everyone in the area's healing. When I'm soloing at a keep fight I don't want my self healing reduced cause some dingus threw three bad hots at me.

Yep, it took almost... no time at all... for someone to suggest nerfing ungrouped healers, and to call them trolls and dinguses. (No offense intended ArctosCethlenn... I know you are just making a point, as am I.)

I don't know what the solution is. I was always more of a fan of better leveraging defile, than nerfing healing, but I do know that too much healing is a problem. But, please, for the sake of the solo'ers and small groups, don't implement a solution that makes us hated amongst our own faction! This is like the Ring of the Pale Order all over again, before it was nerfed per group member, in that it became a thing that someone could wear a piece of armor and make someone else's role pointless and ineffective. Except, this is worse, because the PvP crowd can be a bit more opinionated and quicker to report. Besides just the fact that it will ruin the fun for the playstyles I mentioned, not everyone reads patch notes, and not everyone plays the game all the time. I can totally see people being reported for simply healing their teammates and not knowing things have changed, and that is just crazy. I can also see people using it to sabotage the other factions and have some situations where the reporting would be ridiculous and some situations where it might be warranted. Please, please don't create that mess.

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Where are all those guys who said fixing heal stacking would be so simple and easy?

it would be EASY if the team would do as asked for HEALING STACKS no-one has ever added 50% debuff to ALL healing thereafter . its not players that dont understand the game its the dev team that ALWAYS wants to do more then whats been asked for because they cant let the PLAYERS be right

Sad, but true. If HoTs alone in groups of 6+ were nerfed, there would be almost zero outrage. If there were also just limits to the amount of sticky HoTs you could have on you, the outrage would be way less. A flat 50% to EVERYTHING as long as you have 3 HoTs on you is out of touch and seems more like a dev trying to kill their own PvP playerbase.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Where are all those guys who said fixing heal stacking would be so simple and easy?

it would be EASY if the team would do as asked for HEALING STACKS no-one has ever added 50% debuff to ALL healing thereafter . its not players that dont understand the game its the dev team that ALWAYS wants to do more then whats been asked for because they cant let the PLAYERS be right

Sad, but true. If HoTs alone in groups of 6+ were nerfed, there would be almost zero outrage. If there were also just limits to the amount of sticky HoTs you could have on you, the outrage would be way less. A flat 50% to EVERYTHING as long as you have 3 HoTs on you is out of touch and seems more like a dev trying to kill their own PvP playerbase.

doing it by group size is just as bad as 50% as all players will do is break up into the best # for groups and use mics to be grouped as an hole so again NO doing it by group size aint the way to go why you think we have ballgroups because they put group sized buffs on sets , lets not see healing be an matter of your group size big or small

Artisian0001 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

heimdall14_9 wrote: »

xylena wrote: »

Where are all those guys who said fixing heal stacking would be so simple and easy?

it would be EASY if the team would do as asked for HEALING STACKS no-one has ever added 50% debuff to ALL healing thereafter . its not players that dont understand the game its the dev team that ALWAYS wants to do more then whats been asked for because they cant let the PLAYERS be right

Sad, but true. If HoTs alone in groups of 6+ were nerfed, there would be almost zero outrage. If there were also just limits to the amount of sticky HoTs you could have on you, the outrage would be way less. A flat 50% to EVERYTHING as long as you have 3 HoTs on you is out of touch and seems more like a dev trying to kill their own PvP playerbase.

doing it by group size is just as bad as 50% as all players will do is break up into the best # for groups and use mics to be grouped as an hole so again NO doing it by group size aint the way to go why you think we have ballgroups because they put group sized buffs on sets , lets not see healing be an matter of your group size big or small

Acting like things are "just as bad" isn't constructive at all to this conversation. Equating things that aren't equal is silly. One is obviously worse than the other and an alternative is better than the 50% that is currently on place on the PTS. I agree putting a flat number at a certain group size might lead to people going 1 less than that group size, but it's vastly better than what the PTS currently has.

ill just disagree with you and move on have an great day

HAHA I kinda love this.. healing has been insane for a while.

Seriously though I agree with the many people saying this can and will likely backfire.

Large groups / ball groups (the problem) are just gonna spec further into healing. 50% heal reduction on a pretty stacked ball group that are cross healing each other won’t really stop them.

It’s the smaller groups that will suffer here - They will be punished for catching random heals from other players in cyrodil.

My suggestions;

- Make all heals scale with group size. If you want a bigger group, and access to each others buffs etc, then it comes at a cost of healing debuff (which can be built back up with the right specs)
- Nerf the strength of healing soul and remove major vitality. Yeah don’t come at me on this one, we ALL use it, and a universal skill that ANYONE can slap on ANY build shouldn’t be hands down the strongest burst heal in the game. Adjusting this would actually have people even rethinking their subclassing choices to access healing, and would promote some variety along with balance.


If you really must go live with this, just remove all cross healing completely. No one outside of your group can heal or buff you. Not sure I like that direction but you need to commit to one thing or another

The pts version here will be bad for the game

Cap armor in groups of 4 or more at 40%(26400 resists) instead of 50%(33000 resists). Add the heal reduction to hots at group sizes of 9 or more. This would fix all almost all the issues.

Edit: also don't allow overcapping armor like people do right now. Tons of people run around with 38k resists so enemy armor penetration does nothing.

rlindsey912nub18_ESO wrote: »

If your in a group you already have too many advantages over players who don’t play in groups like like seriously you have just about every major and minor butts also and needing more than hots also is just crazy and I ve 1vx for years with just a burst heal and Vigor you guys are overreacting and the current state of the game is what got the game to where current state is str8 dumpster juice let the tank meta die it’s time for something different it’s ok to die in a Video Game its not the end of the world

I agree, but all you are doing is hurting smaller groups, so you can you get a coherent point rather than some run on sentence with nothing of value?

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

HAHA I kinda love this.. healing has been insane for a while.

Seriously though I agree with the many people saying this can and will likely backfire.

Large groups / ball groups (the problem) are just gonna spec further into healing. 50% heal reduction on a pretty stacked ball group that are cross healing each other won’t really stop them.

It’s the smaller groups that will suffer here - They will be punished for catching random heals from other players in cyrodil.

My suggestions;

- Make all heals scale with group size. If you want a bigger group, and access to each others buffs etc, then it comes at a cost of healing debuff (which can be built back up with the right specs)
- Nerf the strength of healing soul and remove major vitality. Yeah don’t come at me on this one, we ALL use it, and a universal skill that ANYONE can slap on ANY build shouldn’t be hands down the strongest burst heal in the game. Adjusting this would actually have people even rethinking their subclassing choices to access healing, and would promote some variety along with balance.


If you really must go live with this, just remove all cross healing completely. No one outside of your group can heal or buff you. Not sure I like that direction but you need to commit to one thing or another

The pts version here will be bad for the game

Adding extra bookkeeping and overhead like this will only further drag down performance.

Just limit players to one copy of a given morph and call it a day.

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

HAHA I kinda love this.. healing has been insane for a while.

Seriously though I agree with the many people saying this can and will likely backfire.

Large groups / ball groups (the problem) are just gonna spec further into healing. 50% heal reduction on a pretty stacked ball group that are cross healing each other won’t really stop them.

It’s the smaller groups that will suffer here - They will be punished for catching random heals from other players in cyrodil.

My suggestions;

- Make all heals scale with group size. If you want a bigger group, and access to each others buffs etc, then it comes at a cost of healing debuff (which can be built back up with the right specs)
- Nerf the strength of healing soul and remove major vitality. Yeah don’t come at me on this one, we ALL use it, and a universal skill that ANYONE can slap on ANY build shouldn’t be hands down the strongest burst heal in the game. Adjusting this would actually have people even rethinking their subclassing choices to access healing, and would promote some variety along with balance.


If you really must go live with this, just remove all cross healing completely. No one outside of your group can heal or buff you. Not sure I like that direction but you need to commit to one thing or another

The pts version here will be bad for the game

Adding extra bookkeeping and overhead like this will only further drag down performance.

Just limit players to one copy of a given morph and call it a day.

This is an awful suggestion, but still somehow better than what is on the PTS.

Edit: I agree that performance would be screwed by this though.

How so?

You would land with 3 possible HoTs from Regen instead of 12, and only one active Echoing Vigor.

Regeneration
Rapid Regeneration
Radiating Regeneration

Radiate77 wrote: »

Teeba_Shei wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Danse_Mayhem wrote: »

HAHA I kinda love this.. healing has been insane for a while.

Seriously though I agree with the many people saying this can and will likely backfire.

Large groups / ball groups (the problem) are just gonna spec further into healing. 50% heal reduction on a pretty stacked ball group that are cross healing each other won’t really stop them.

It’s the smaller groups that will suffer here - They will be punished for catching random heals from other players in cyrodil.

My suggestions;

- Make all heals scale with group size. If you want a bigger group, and access to each others buffs etc, then it comes at a cost of healing debuff (which can be built back up with the right specs)
- Nerf the strength of healing soul and remove major vitality. Yeah don’t come at me on this one, we ALL use it, and a universal skill that ANYONE can slap on ANY build shouldn’t be hands down the strongest burst heal in the game. Adjusting this would actually have people even rethinking their subclassing choices to access healing, and would promote some variety along with balance.


If you really must go live with this, just remove all cross healing completely. No one outside of your group can heal or buff you. Not sure I like that direction but you need to commit to one thing or another

The pts version here will be bad for the game

Adding extra bookkeeping and overhead like this will only further drag down performance.

Just limit players to one copy of a given morph and call it a day.

This is an awful suggestion, but still somehow better than what is on the PTS.

Edit: I agree that performance would be screwed by this though.

How so?

You would land with 3 possible HoTs from Regen instead of 12, and only one active Echoing Vigor.

Regeneration
Rapid Regeneration
Radiating Regeneration

If you were playing a healer in a group(Pug or otherwise) you would be casting spells and having them do nothing. Sounds like fun.