edward_frigidhands wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

Further things could be "if you are in a group larger than 6 people in cyrodiil, healing received is reduced by 25 percent" or something like that.

You want to discourage grouping up in a game labeled an MMORPG...I am struggling to make sense of this one.

The funny thing about this suggestion is that this would not stop the ball groups that we are ready to break the game to counter. They would make smaller groups since they coordinate on voice.

This will hurt regular players who just want to play together.

Groups in ESO get too many advantages to be discouraged by 25% healing reduction.
If Ballgroups dont play in a group they loose all Buffs from sets and skills that require grouping.
Loosing 20 Statprocs and Buffskills is a huge gamechanger and too much to give up.

If they remove healing outside group again completely like some players here ask than ungrouped ballgroups will have same healing as a solo player which is still much lower than in group with 25% reduction.

Iriidius wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

Further things could be "if you are in a group larger than 6 people in cyrodiil, healing received is reduced by 25 percent" or something like that.

You want to discourage grouping up in a game labeled an MMORPG...I am struggling to make sense of this one.

The funny thing about this suggestion is that this would not stop the ball groups that we are ready to break the game to counter. They would make smaller groups since they coordinate on voice.

This will hurt regular players who just want to play together.

Groups in ESO get too many advantages to be discouraged by 25% healing reduction.
If Ballgroups dont play in a group they loose all Buffs from sets and skills that require grouping.
Loosing 20 Statprocs and Buffskills is a huge gamechanger and too much to give up.

If they remove healing outside group again completely like some players here ask than ungrouped ballgroups will have same healing as a solo player which is still much lower than in group with 25% reduction.

You aren't engaging with the issue though, this would be 25% for a 3 man group. This change is absurd on it's face, but even more absurd when you factor in that it works on smaller groups just as bad. The comments on this thread alone within the past hour have given suggestions that dwarf in intellect the absolute absurdity of whatever lapse in judgement an entire team needed to even suggest implementing this.

Dalinar4 wrote: »

50% healing nerf 2.0

The goal seems to be targeted specifically at Ball Groups, but this will hurt "normal" players the most. Nuking all healing received by 50% with a mostly uncontrollable proc condition is one of the worse decisions I have ever seen in this game. Burst healing is one of the primary ways solo players survive.Being a healer in PvP is now a net negative to your faction's survivability.

Instead:
1. Only applies to Healing over time skills
2. 2.5% healing received reduction for each player you are grouped with. 12 players = 27.50%, 30% if you count yourself.
3. Limit the number of the same HOT on each person. Example: 3 Echoing Vigor stacks, hit by #4 resets the oldest one.

The amount of extra calculations this would add to the server would be insane. The lag would be the worst its ever been.

A lot of this is a symptom of healing and damage all scaling off the same stats tbh. If it required building/enchanting for healing output to effectively heal at the cost of damage output, or building and enchanting for damage at the cost of healing output things wouldn't quite have gotten as bad as they are. You wouldn't have every dd in a comped ball *also* maintaining crossheals with echo and able to burst heal on par with a dedicated healer, while backed up by a full roster of generalist output buffs from major/minor sorc and brut, courages, rally, PA and more.

Going from no healing reduction at all to a sudden 50% healing taken penalty is insanely punishing. There’s no clear feedback that it’s even happening until it’s already too late, and by then your burst healing is completely gutted.

This change absolutely crushes small-scale play. It forces everyone into stacking group burst heals, building overly tanky, and playing scared instead of reactive. It also arbitrarily limits builds by effectively telling groups they’re only allowed to run two HoTs. That’s not balance — that’s forcing a single, boring playstyle.

This change isn’t even half baked, it’s a knee-jerk reaction with zero understanding of how PvP actually functions.

Erissime wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

I think he means you just finally did something right about them ballgroups and organized groups. Which live from overheals. Congratulations by the way. A much needed nerf everyone's been begging for in years! Indeed a normal player doesn't need more than 3 heals to succesfully stay alive and fight. Unless they're run over by 12 ppl at the same time.

Comments like these are always my favorite because you can tell the person is only here in an attempt to ragebait and won't actually engage with anything, I wonder if people like this even play the game. This hurts smaller groups more than larger ones, and every single person fighting out numbered needs multiple heals unless the people they are playing against are vastly unprepared to be in cyro. 3-8 man groups get gutted by this more than anyone else.

xylena wrote: »

Where are all those guys who said fixing heal stacking would be so simple and easy?

It is. Make every source of outside healing less effective.

1 HoT / Shield: 100% effect = 100% total
2 HoTs / Shields: each 75% = 150% total
3 HoTs / Shields: each 60% = 180% total
4 HoTs / Shields: each 50% = 200% total

And so on. This would drastically reduce heal stacking while still increasing power with the amount of healing sources.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just chatted with the combat team. For those who think this change needs more work, we’re passing this feedback on so our teams can iterate on this. Please make sure to clearly express your feedback so we can take it into account during adjustments.

Apply this rule for shields as well. Anything beyond 3 shields on the same person reduced. Or any combo of heal + shield. Anything supporting health actually above 3 at the same time reduce beyond 3, and give priority to self-heals/shields. In that say person has 1 heal in their build, and group members or randoms drop a shield or a heal - priority always to be the self-heals/shield, to avoid the messing up of game-play others underlined. Or just flat-out have every pvper live with their own personal 3 anything ( shields/heals) and anything beyond that, either self or outter, reduced.

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Okay, you have effectively ruined the game.

Can you give some context here? That way, we can provide feedback to the team.

Further things could be "if you are in a group larger than 6 people in cyrodiil, healing received is reduced by 25 percent" or something like that.

You want to discourage grouping up in a game labeled an MMORPG...I am struggling to make sense of this one.

The funny thing about this suggestion is that this would not stop the ball groups that we are ready to break the game to counter. They would make smaller groups since they coordinate on voice.

This will hurt regular players who just want to play together.

Groups in ESO get too many advantages to be discouraged by 25% healing reduction.
If Ballgroups dont play in a group they loose all Buffs from sets and skills that require grouping.
Loosing 20 Statprocs and Buffskills is a huge gamechanger and too much to give up.

If they remove healing outside group again completely like some players here ask than ungrouped ballgroups will have same healing as a solo player which is still much lower than in group with 25% reduction.

Every group is not a ball group. And Cyrodill isn't balanced around or about solo or 1vX play.

It is a large scale keep style pvp map designed for large simultaneous group fights. Not to mention this game mode exists in a Massively Multiplayer Online game.

The entire point is large groups and working together. The changes you are looking for belong in an entirely different game.

What they are trying to do here is address the excess strength of a particular style of group play rather than nerf or discourage group play altogether.

Discouraging group play in a large scale siege style pvp map that exists in an MMORPG would be counterintuitive.

100% This is an MMO MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER I agree toning down the groups that run multiple 12 mans need to be done. I am not going to say any names but some streamers run multiple groups of 12 that run side by side healing each other, this is mostly on AD at least on PC/NA with DIG that will sometimes have 50 people on at a time. Even organized 12 man groups that are good have too much healing and a 10% nerf to all healing in groups that big is warranted IMO. A 5 person group isn't an issue. The only person a 5 man group is an issue to is a solo player and a solo player should lose to 5 somewhat competent people, that's just how it should go. A 50% proposal is a joke.

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I think this is a good change, and for everyone who says it's a bad change, keep in mind that they specifically said 3 or more "sticky" heals.

It'd be helpful if they defined which skills specifically count, but if it's just Echoing Vigor + Regeneration and morphs, this isn't likely to impact many people outside of coordinated ball groups. Things like the templar ritual, healing springs, burst heals won't count towards it. I'm curious if crit surge and the rune focus heal are considered sticky hots.

I think this change would be even better if they changed healing so that only people within a group can heal each other, and anyone ungrouped can heal other ungrouped people.

I can go around on a character with a level 3 ruby ash resto staff with radiating regen, echoing vigor, and sages remedy, that heals for under 100 HPS combined and make your heals do 50% less.

I mean I specifically addressed that by suggesting that only grouped people should be able to heal each other. They actually experimented with this idea back in like 2020 or so. Not sure why they changed it back, but I thought it was a step in the right direction.

Removing healing from outside of group was a good change IMO as well, it should have stuck, but if both of these changes went through the population would fall even more. The people who love these changes don't even realize the people they farm aren't going to even be in the game to kill anymore if the changes go through. You aren't going to see bad solo players running around trying to have fun, they will just leave, because groups won't include them for their random healing as it will be detrimental with the change.

Not even just big groups die, groups of 4+ die as well, and then the only thing left is the people who complain about ballgroups that don't realize they need those bad ballgroup players on the game so they can kill them.

I think what you mean to be saying is that most people Cyrodiil is left with nowadays are the ballgroups and organized groups, because that's what drove most pvpers away to begin with. Nobody needs these balls, and Vengeance proved it. People actually joined in and enjoyed the freedom ! Is Vengeance perfect? Far from it. All the complaints about lack of diversity and what misses from main campaigns stand - but imagine the level of pestering balls brought to actually agree to something like Vengeance for a change!

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Making each sticky HOT morph unique, as some have suggested, so that you may only have one instance at a time, would be a wise change, IMO. It achieves the intended spirit of the change, completely eliminating sticky HOT stacking, without blowing up the rest of the game around it.

Moreover, it would avoid adding even more Byzantine and arbitrary calculations to the already over-stressed game servers' plate. The poor servers don't need that. We don't need that. Instead, follow existing mechanical precedents and treat sticky HOTs like damage shields that cannot stack with themselves.

Not only have you evened the odds in fights but you have also likely slightly improved performance due to all of the sticky HOT calculations no longer being made.

IMO The change you're requesting would worsen performance not improve it (in terms of calcualtions).
Right now it only needs to calculate if you're in range then apply the HoT based on the power level of the caster.
Then make 1 check on the character sheet of 'How many HoTs applied'.

With the change of only 1 HoT of each skill morph it would need to calculate which player to apply the skill to, whether or not the heal does more or less depending on who casts it.

E.g. Healer casts vigor ticking for 1500 per tick, then 1 second after that some tank casts vigor ticking for 200 per tick. Which vigor is applied and what does it heal for? The server would need to work all that out.

If its the latter people could just troll by building the worst healer they could and spam HoT skills to constantly replace good healing numbers.

I think that you're making it more complicated than it needs to be.

You would simply overwrite the existing HOT instance each time that you are a valid target for the ability. Same as the behavior with damage shields or named buffs. Stronger, weaker, doesn't matter. Reducing the strength of a single HOT from 1500 every 2 seconds to 500 every 2 seconds doesn't really move the needle for survival and it would be a very ineffectual means of trolling other groups, IMO.

If you're a ballgroup in that scenario, the damage has already been done by reducing your sticky HOTs from, collectively, perhaps 10-12 to 2. At that point, the magnitude of the few remaining sticky HOTs barely matters since you've already lost 80-90+% of the prior healing output and sticky HOTs no longer serve their previous function as a reliable survivability tool.

Erissime wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Artisian0001 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I think this is a good change, and for everyone who says it's a bad change, keep in mind that they specifically said 3 or more "sticky" heals.

It'd be helpful if they defined which skills specifically count, but if it's just Echoing Vigor + Regeneration and morphs, this isn't likely to impact many people outside of coordinated ball groups. Things like the templar ritual, healing springs, burst heals won't count towards it. I'm curious if crit surge and the rune focus heal are considered sticky hots.

I think this change would be even better if they changed healing so that only people within a group can heal each other, and anyone ungrouped can heal other ungrouped people.

I can go around on a character with a level 3 ruby ash resto staff with radiating regen, echoing vigor, and sages remedy, that heals for under 100 HPS combined and make your heals do 50% less.

I mean I specifically addressed that by suggesting that only grouped people should be able to heal each other. They actually experimented with this idea back in like 2020 or so. Not sure why they changed it back, but I thought it was a step in the right direction.

Removing healing from outside of group was a good change IMO as well, it should have stuck, but if both of these changes went through the population would fall even more. The people who love these changes don't even realize the people they farm aren't going to even be in the game to kill anymore if the changes go through. You aren't going to see bad solo players running around trying to have fun, they will just leave, because groups won't include them for their random healing as it will be detrimental with the change.

Not even just big groups die, groups of 4+ die as well, and then the only thing left is the people who complain about ballgroups that don't realize they need those bad ballgroup players on the game so they can kill them.

I think what you mean to be saying is that most people Cyrodiil is left with nowadays are the ballgroups and organized groups, because that's what drove most pvpers away to begin with. Nobody needs these balls, and Vengeance proved it. People actually joined in and enjoyed the freedom ! Is Vengeance perfect? Far from it. All the complaints about lack of diversity and what misses from main campaigns stand - but imagine the level of pestering balls brought to actually agree to something like Vengeance for a change!

Your own comment is self defeating. Go check the last form thread that spoke about vengeance, the vast majority of people wanted it removed from the game completely that were talking in that thread. I'm not even one of those people, but if you want vengeance great, go play there, stay out of GH and other forms of cyro if you think groups are the issue. Try actually engaging with a point though, is a 4 man group getting the same heal debuff as a 12 man group a good thing? If so why? If you think it is, then why doesn't a solo player also get the same debuff? Why is a 3 HoT limit the proper way to go about it? Good luck.

I'm not gonna comment on amount of healing here, but adding in a 50% number, any % number just means more math over a prolonged period when the game already suffers from too much math. Sure reduce healing, or number of healing stacks someone can have, do some experimentation or log analysis to come up with a number to use, but just make that max stack reject a new heal being added until the stack reduces. Less math, similar outcome. Less lag.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Just chatted with the combat team. For those who think this change needs more work, we’re passing this feedback on so our teams can iterate on this. Please make sure to clearly express your feedback so we can take it into account during adjustments.

@ZOS_Kevin (A bit late in this thread so hopefully it still gets seen) There are 2 ways to go about this, already mentioned by others but I will add my voice to this as well.

1. Make this reduction specifically only apply to heals that you receive from other players, not those you cast yourself.
2. Make this reduction only apply to healing over time effects and damage shields, not to burst heals.

Ideally it would be some combination of both of these adjustments to the proposed healing nerf where it only applies to healing over time effects and those that are cast by other players, but that might have a significant impact on server performance with the amount of check this could require.

The main reasons I have for these adjustments to the nerf are:
1. Burst heals (i.e. reactive defense) are a necessary skill expression to have in any combat game, while healing over time or damage shields (i.e. passive defense) always needs limitations to prevent it being too powerful.
2. As has been mentioned previously as well, there is a very high chance for players so inclined to just go around trolling other players (especially in PvP) spamming very weak heal over time effects to push other players over this threshold, effectively deleting all of their healing and deleting the ability for them to defend themselves.
3. Healers will basically be detrimental to have since they will reduce everyone's healing massively instead of actually healing their allies.
4. It is just too easy for someone to randomly run past and without even thinking cast a heal over time ability that happens to hit an ally that pushes said ally over that threshold killing all healing that ally will receive.

imPDA wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

imPDA wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

imPDA wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin, this should be added on top of turning off healing from players outside of the group, because it should not ruin your gameplay if some random healer will decide to stack a lot of HoTs on you out of nowhere. Or, if you can, you could decrease healing received from other targets, but left player's own healing as is, because loosing healing you used to is frustrating, but receiving less healing from random healers from outside of group is OK.

If I’m in a group with one friend, and we’re fighting around a castle, how would it be fair for us to not receive any healing from other players?

How would this be fair for people who main a healer in Cyrodiil?

There needs to be a smarter solution than simply turning off heals from an out of group source.

Let's test this first on Live for some time (2–4 weeks).

The live server is not for testing.

There is already a server for that purpose. You are posting on the forums dedicated to a server dedicated to testing.

That is kind of the point. To check bad changes and decisions like this one and keep them from making it to the live servers where people may login to expect a degree of quality.

Although lately those expectations have eroded.

PTS is dead for tests like this. There were many tests on Live before, by the way. If you don’t want to test it on Live, fine - deliver it to Live without testing.

There were tests on live in the past yes but they made people stop participating in those specific game modes or stop playing altogether.

Players that take a hiatus from the game to avoid forced testing will not be paying ZOS.

In a game that is bleeding players the last thing you want is running unpopular experiments on a live server and removing the ability to skip them.

People not wanting to play on the PTS is an issue that is addressed with incentives rather than trying moving the test to live servers.

The reasons causing people to not want to play on the PTS will become reasons they don't want to login to the live servers.