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Vengeance ruleset for Dungeons/Etc.
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ShutUpitsRed✭✭✭ShutUpitsRed wrote: »ShutUpitsRed wrote: »Vengeance for AT LEAST trials should help identify and address these issues, no? Not understanding the pushback, I thought we all wanted better performance in ESO.
(inb4 connection and hardware, I have an absurdly powerful machine and connection, it ain't me)
Vengeance's goal is to lower the server calcs which is what is affecting perfomance. The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers.
Having Vengeance in PvE doesn't solve disconnects.
Having powerful hardware doesn't mean it functions correctlty.
The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers, and yet, the performance issues are there. PvP Vengeance threw almost everything out because apparently they needed to assess almost literally everything that could be contributing to the issue. What makes you so confident in your assessment when ZOS themselves has to go to such drastic lengths to figure out why the game doesn't work?
Besides, it would just be a test, what's wrong with that? We could even have a trial-based golden pursuit to encourage testing and get real feedback from players about how simplified trials play vs regular... personally, the performance issues in trials is a big part of what keeps me out of them. I think it would be a worthwhile test.
The difference is there are not hordes of players complaining about PvE performance. There is also no consistency to when there is a lag spike or fps drop in PvE. In Cyro you can set your watch by them.
Do I get a lag spike right in the middle of a trial trifecta run? Yes. It's rare but it does happen.
Do I get a lag spike everytime I go near anything under attack in Cyro? All the damned time.
One is a confluence of events, the other is a performance issue.
So, your response to my questions is to tell me that the issues I and others experience aren't real, or not a big enough issue to try to fix? Instead of addressing what I'm actually saying, you're just "nuh uh"ing at me. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a productive discussion. What would be wrong with a test to figure out how to fix performance in trials? Your experiences are not universal; plenty of people have these problems, and simply dismissing them as a "confluence of events" helps nobody. We all play the same game, and we all want it to be better, yes?2 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShutUpitsRed wrote: »ShutUpitsRed wrote: »ShutUpitsRed wrote: »Vengeance for AT LEAST trials should help identify and address these issues, no? Not understanding the pushback, I thought we all wanted better performance in ESO.
(inb4 connection and hardware, I have an absurdly powerful machine and connection, it ain't me)
Vengeance's goal is to lower the server calcs which is what is affecting perfomance. The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers.
Having Vengeance in PvE doesn't solve disconnects.
Having powerful hardware doesn't mean it functions correctlty.
The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers, and yet, the performance issues are there. PvP Vengeance threw almost everything out because apparently they needed to assess almost literally everything that could be contributing to the issue. What makes you so confident in your assessment when ZOS themselves has to go to such drastic lengths to figure out why the game doesn't work?
Besides, it would just be a test, what's wrong with that? We could even have a trial-based golden pursuit to encourage testing and get real feedback from players about how simplified trials play vs regular... personally, the performance issues in trials is a big part of what keeps me out of them. I think it would be a worthwhile test.
The difference is there are not hordes of players complaining about PvE performance. There is also no consistency to when there is a lag spike or fps drop in PvE. In Cyro you can set your watch by them.
Do I get a lag spike right in the middle of a trial trifecta run? Yes. It's rare but it does happen.
Do I get a lag spike everytime I go near anything under attack in Cyro? All the damned time.
One is a confluence of events, the other is a performance issue.
So, your response to my questions is to tell me that the issues I and others experience aren't real, or not a big enough issue to try to fix? Instead of addressing what I'm actually saying, you're just "nuh uh"ing at me. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a productive discussion. What would be wrong with a test to figure out how to fix performance in trials? Your experiences are not universal; plenty of people have these problems, and simply dismissing them as a "confluence of events" helps nobody. We all play the same game, and we all want it to be better, yes?
No, i'm saying that you seem to be experiencing something most people do not. That doesn't mean you are wrong, but it does mean the problem for you is narrower in scope than "lets completely change the game".
"What would be wrong with a test to figure out how to fix performance in trials?" - Again, what performance issue? A disconnect is not a performance issue. Those would be spikes in the server load, drops in fps and sustained lag during fights.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!2 -
twisttop138✭✭✭✭✭
✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »It's funny how the PvE community pushes so hard for vengeance but when the same system is proposed for PvE zones they freak out and throw down all kinds of reasons why the template mode is no good or not needed.
I keep seeing this. Who is pushing hard? What is the pve community?
I stopped reading here. Come on now.
You can feel free to stop reading but the answer should obvious. There is no huge cabal of players trying to kill your game mode. People keep saying a large group of pve mains. How on earth could you possibly know this except that it fits the echo chamber narrative around this issue. We see it in real life too. Players didn't do this man. Your issue is with Zenimax.
Strawman arguments are so exhausting, no one is saying there's a secret cabal of anything, but it is pretty selfish and hypocritical for pve enjoyers aka lol the "pve community" to come in pushing content they know damn well they wont play longer than it takes to get their tier 3 rewards, as the last two tests have shown.
You wanna play ignorant like you don't know what people mean by PvE community by all means but its as silly as OP pretending to want vengeance mode for dungeons.
No one is saying every last pver wants vengeance, but pretending there's not a lot of them here pushing that narrative is pointless. Maybe you haven't been paying attention to it or turned a blind eye but your perception isn't reality.
How did we get to the place where this sounds like a cable news show? Groups of people pushing the narrative? The people who enjoyed vengeance (I didn't) said they enjoyed it. Now this is something that needs to be called out as a narrative? It sucks this is happening. I personally don't go into Cyro much these days but I have really awesome memories there. If they canned it, that would be terrible. I get that people don't trust Zos but I look at it from a cost benefit perspective. What does getting rid of GH cost them and what does it benefit them. It just doesn't add up. Getting rid of it costs them players and maybe money. There isn't a lot of benefit. Adding vengeance is going to happen but I don't think grey host will go anywhere because why wouldn't they have their cake and eat it too.0 -
ShutUpitsRed✭✭✭ShutUpitsRed wrote: »ShutUpitsRed wrote: »ShutUpitsRed wrote: »Vengeance for AT LEAST trials should help identify and address these issues, no? Not understanding the pushback, I thought we all wanted better performance in ESO.
(inb4 connection and hardware, I have an absurdly powerful machine and connection, it ain't me)
Vengeance's goal is to lower the server calcs which is what is affecting perfomance. The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers.
Having Vengeance in PvE doesn't solve disconnects.
Having powerful hardware doesn't mean it functions correctlty.
The calcs in trials are not even remotely putting the same strain on the servers, and yet, the performance issues are there. PvP Vengeance threw almost everything out because apparently they needed to assess almost literally everything that could be contributing to the issue. What makes you so confident in your assessment when ZOS themselves has to go to such drastic lengths to figure out why the game doesn't work?
Besides, it would just be a test, what's wrong with that? We could even have a trial-based golden pursuit to encourage testing and get real feedback from players about how simplified trials play vs regular... personally, the performance issues in trials is a big part of what keeps me out of them. I think it would be a worthwhile test.
The difference is there are not hordes of players complaining about PvE performance. There is also no consistency to when there is a lag spike or fps drop in PvE. In Cyro you can set your watch by them.
Do I get a lag spike right in the middle of a trial trifecta run? Yes. It's rare but it does happen.
Do I get a lag spike everytime I go near anything under attack in Cyro? All the damned time.
One is a confluence of events, the other is a performance issue.
So, your response to my questions is to tell me that the issues I and others experience aren't real, or not a big enough issue to try to fix? Instead of addressing what I'm actually saying, you're just "nuh uh"ing at me. I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a productive discussion. What would be wrong with a test to figure out how to fix performance in trials? Your experiences are not universal; plenty of people have these problems, and simply dismissing them as a "confluence of events" helps nobody. We all play the same game, and we all want it to be better, yes?
No, i'm saying that you seem to be experiencing something most people do not. That doesn't mean you are wrong, but it does mean the problem for you is narrower in scope than "lets completely change the game".
"What would be wrong with a test to figure out how to fix performance in trials?" - Again, what performance issue? A disconnect is not a performance issue. Those would be spikes in the server load, drops in fps and sustained lag during fights.
I don't have performance issues in Cyrodiil to nearly the same degree as I see reported, but I don't go around telling people their experiences are invalid just because I don't experience the same, or that I don't see enough complaining about it. That would be absurd. Again, you're just denying the issue exists, which is not helpful. A disconnect can be a part of a performance issue; I did not feel the need to list out the exacts of what I meant by "performance issues" regarding trials, as I assumed it would be easily inferred to mean lag and fps that looks like a slideshow when people start beaming. If you are unwilling to answer a basic question without resorting to denying the existence of the issue at hand, I don't think this conversation is going anywhere productive. Have a good one.2 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭twisttop138 wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »It's funny how the PvE community pushes so hard for vengeance but when the same system is proposed for PvE zones they freak out and throw down all kinds of reasons why the template mode is no good or not needed.
I keep seeing this. Who is pushing hard? What is the pve community?
I stopped reading here. Come on now.
You can feel free to stop reading but the answer should obvious. There is no huge cabal of players trying to kill your game mode. People keep saying a large group of pve mains. How on earth could you possibly know this except that it fits the echo chamber narrative around this issue. We see it in real life too. Players didn't do this man. Your issue is with Zenimax.
Strawman arguments are so exhausting, no one is saying there's a secret cabal of anything, but it is pretty selfish and hypocritical for pve enjoyers aka lol the "pve community" to come in pushing content they know damn well they wont play longer than it takes to get their tier 3 rewards, as the last two tests have shown.
You wanna play ignorant like you don't know what people mean by PvE community by all means but its as silly as OP pretending to want vengeance mode for dungeons.
No one is saying every last pver wants vengeance, but pretending there's not a lot of them here pushing that narrative is pointless. Maybe you haven't been paying attention to it or turned a blind eye but your perception isn't reality.
How did we get to the place where this sounds like a cable news show? Groups of people pushing the narrative? The people who enjoyed vengeance (I didn't) said they enjoyed it. Now this is something that needs to be called out as a narrative? It sucks this is happening. I personally don't go into Cyro much these days but I have really awesome memories there. If they canned it, that would be terrible. I get that people don't trust Zos but I look at it from a cost benefit perspective. What does getting rid of GH cost them and what does it benefit them. It just doesn't add up. Getting rid of it costs them players and maybe money. There isn't a lot of benefit. Adding vengeance is going to happen but I don't think grey host will go anywhere because why wouldn't they have their cake and eat it too.
It does when you have those people as well as salty pvpers calling for the removal of pvp or greyhost entirely. I don't really care about semantics arguments, the sentiment is obviously there or there wouldn't be pvpers like myself debating over any of this in the first place. OP's methods may be misguided but his desire to make pvers see how ridiculous these tests being forced on us in the first place so they can enjoy PvP for a bit wasn't born from nowhere.
The other guy said it better than me, @tomofhyrule , basically there's so little faith in what Zos says and such high suspicion because one minute they're calling it tests, and so many here said it was just a conspiracy that vengeance was gonna be made permanent, and now they're saying it will be one way or another, and Greyhost's existence while leaning yes, it will continue to exist, isn't 100 percent.
Sorry but combine that with comments about how Cyro is broken and needs to go, people are gonna see that and not be happy.
Also I hate to be that guy but you used "narrative" first between you and I lol. "Echo chamber narrative".Tes fans hate Ulfric Stormcloak for imagined bigotry but love Dagoth Ur, the Empire, and the Telvanni unironically.0 -
twisttop138✭✭✭✭✭
✭BardokRedSnow wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »It's funny how the PvE community pushes so hard for vengeance but when the same system is proposed for PvE zones they freak out and throw down all kinds of reasons why the template mode is no good or not needed.
I keep seeing this. Who is pushing hard? What is the pve community?
I stopped reading here. Come on now.
You can feel free to stop reading but the answer should obvious. There is no huge cabal of players trying to kill your game mode. People keep saying a large group of pve mains. How on earth could you possibly know this except that it fits the echo chamber narrative around this issue. We see it in real life too. Players didn't do this man. Your issue is with Zenimax.
Strawman arguments are so exhausting, no one is saying there's a secret cabal of anything, but it is pretty selfish and hypocritical for pve enjoyers aka lol the "pve community" to come in pushing content they know damn well they wont play longer than it takes to get their tier 3 rewards, as the last two tests have shown.
You wanna play ignorant like you don't know what people mean by PvE community by all means but its as silly as OP pretending to want vengeance mode for dungeons.
No one is saying every last pver wants vengeance, but pretending there's not a lot of them here pushing that narrative is pointless. Maybe you haven't been paying attention to it or turned a blind eye but your perception isn't reality.
How did we get to the place where this sounds like a cable news show? Groups of people pushing the narrative? The people who enjoyed vengeance (I didn't) said they enjoyed it. Now this is something that needs to be called out as a narrative? It sucks this is happening. I personally don't go into Cyro much these days but I have really awesome memories there. If they canned it, that would be terrible. I get that people don't trust Zos but I look at it from a cost benefit perspective. What does getting rid of GH cost them and what does it benefit them. It just doesn't add up. Getting rid of it costs them players and maybe money. There isn't a lot of benefit. Adding vengeance is going to happen but I don't think grey host will go anywhere because why wouldn't they have their cake and eat it too.
It does when you have those people as well as salty pvpers calling for the removal of pvp or greyhost entirely. I don't really care about semantics arguments, the sentiment is obviously there or there wouldn't be pvpers like myself debating over any of this in the first place. OP's methods may be misguided but his desire to make pvers see how ridiculous these tests being forced on us in the first place so they can enjoy PvP for a bit wasn't born from nowhere.
The other guy said it better than me, @tomofhyrule , basically there's so little faith in what Zos says and such high suspicion because one minute they're calling it tests, and so many here said it was just a conspiracy that vengeance was gonna be made permanent, and now they're saying it will be one way or another, and Greyhost's existence while leaning yes, it will continue to exist, isn't 100 percent.
Sorry but combine that with comments about how Cyro is broken and needs to go, people are gonna see that and not be happy.
Also I hate to be that guy but you used "narrative" first between you and I lol. "Echo chamber narrative".
Damn. You got me there, I did use it first. That's why you're the pvper lol. Look brother, it sucks. And of course we have no faith in Zos. Look at everything this year, not just this. I have no faith in next year at all, not just pvp. Just like you guys, it's looking like there won't be room for a trial in this new season meta. Maybe less dungeons. God knows. We're all worried and I guess I'm getting worked up at all of us fighting each other and I get ops point but this thread is wild. It does nothing to bring the point to Zos.1 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.3 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.
A very strong and very brave response. You are so right bro. I have to applaud how well you have provided your arguments in this thread and not been afraid or backed down from augmenting this discussion with your pve performance concerns and challenges.3 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.
A very strong and very brave response. You are so right bro. I have to applaud how well you have provided your arguments in this thread and not been afraid or backed down from augmenting this discussion with your pve performance concerns and challenges.
Hold the line Sir @edward_frigidhands
We fight and die here.3 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.
A very strong and very brave response. You are so right bro. I have to applaud how well you have provided your arguments in this thread and not been afraid or backed down from augmenting this discussion with your pve performance concerns and challenges.
Hold the line Sir @edward_frigidhands
We fight and die here.
For Tamriel. And server performance.2 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.
"Keep" - You haven't answered one in any level of detail that backs up your point.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!2 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.
A very strong and very brave response. You are so right bro. I have to applaud how well you have provided your arguments in this thread and not been afraid or backed down from augmenting this discussion with your pve performance concerns and challenges.
Dodging questions isn't brave. It's borderline trolling at this point.PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!5 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShutUpitsRed wrote: »I don't have performance issues in Cyrodiil to nearly the same degree as I see reported
And there in a nutshell is the whole point - that is the reverse for most players. That isn't performance, something else is going on. Yet, you continue to refuse that as a possibility.
PC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!4 -
fizzybeef✭✭✭✭✭ShutUpitsRed wrote: »I've had performance issues in almost every trial I've played and crashed out of a couple, especially the newer ones. People are comparing this to PvP, which I guess is fair, but I don't really think they're equivalent. I've definitely had performance issues in Gray Host before, and have been disconnected a couple times too, but per-capita have far more issues in trials. Also, disconnecting or having performance issues is a MUCH bigger problem in trials- I've had groups wipe because of one DC or a stuttered mechanic, which borks the whole run. In Cyrodiil, when performance is bad, it's just a couple extra deaths or an inconvenience to re-queue. It's Cyrodiil; you die and you're inconvenienced all the time, and the only "punishment" is your own frustration (where in PvE, you lose your score, rewards, etc). The experience of the whole team is seldom ruined when there's PvP performance issues, not that they're not bad, but they're hardly as experience-breaking and frustrating as in PvE.
Vengeance for AT LEAST trials should help identify and address these issues, no? Not understanding the pushback, I thought we all wanted better performance in ESO.
(inb4 connection and hardware, I have an absurdly powerful machine and connection, it ain't me)
I think in trials and dungeons we should have vengeance too, since i experience the same there too5 -
SneaK✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.
"Keep" - You haven't answered one in any level of detail that backs up your point.
You have all but asked for my social and IP address. I don’t intend to stay on the line for 8 hours with an IT person asking questions like the answers aren’t obvious. I play on a console, I do not care nor will I ever about overclocking my gigagrams and having rbg keychains.
Here you go.
Where does this lag occur for you? PvE
What are your graphic settings? Basic
What is your ISP like? Google *** Media
How often does this occur? A lot
How big are the lag spikes? Big
How long do the lag spikes last? Unusually long
Here a series of questions for you:
Have you ever heard of the silent majority?
Have you ever heard of the loud minority?
Have you ever thought you were apart of the latter?
And back on topic cause you aren’t solving a technical issue here. All you’ve done despite multiple people share the same feedback as I have, is try to invalidate our feedback. You aren’t contributing anything other than an elitist mentality that your experience somehow supersedes anyone else’s. MY lag is more consistent in PvE than anywhere else. That’s it. You don’t have to “believe” me. I’m not asking for you to come cable tech my house either.Edited by SneaK on November 26, 2025 4:17AM6 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.
"Keep" - You haven't answered one in any level of detail that backs up your point.
You have all but asked for my social and IP address. I don’t intend to stay on the line for 8 hours with an IT person asking questions like the answers aren’t obvious. I play on a console, I do not care nor will I ever about overclocking my gigagrams and having rbg keychains.
Here you go.
Where does this lag occur for you? PvE
What are your graphic settings? Basic
What is your ISP like? Google *** Media
How often does this occur? A lot
How big are the lag spikes? Big
How long do the lag spikes last? Unusually long
Here a series of questions for you:
Have you ever heard of the silent majority?
Have you ever heard of the loud minority?
Have you ever thought you were apart of the latter?
And back on topic cause you aren’t solving a technical issue here. All you’ve done despite multiple people share the same feedback as I have, is try to invalidate our feedback. You aren’t contributing anything other than an elitist mentality that your experience somehow supersedes anyone else’s. MY lag is more consistent in PvE than anywhere else. That’s it. You don’t have to “believe” me. I’m not asking for you to come cable tech my house either.
Great thanks. And you keep missing the point - I am not invalidating anyone's experience. I am simply pointng out that for most players the reverse is true - they lag like that in Cyro not in PvE. So by "Basic" do you mean you are playing on Console Enhanced Performance mode?
Cause of lag spikes before even getting to ZOS:
The performance of your ISP
The performance of your ISPs infrastructure
Your distance from your ISP's server
The distance from your ISP's server to ZOS' server
If a dozen people are saying they have constant lag, and everyone else is saying they have occassional spikes that is likely not an issue on the ZOS servers. It's either faulty hardware client side or an issue with the connection. That doesn't necessarily mean your connection, it could be the your ISP to ZOS connection.
As for the silent majority, that's never been a thing in MMOs that have forums. If the lag in PvE was across the entire player base at the level you are describing the forums would be on fire.
And again: Vengeance mode in PvE won't solve that problem.
Edit: TyposEdited by Gabriel_H on November 26, 2025 4:39AMPC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!3 -
BardokRedSnow✭✭✭✭twisttop138 wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »BardokRedSnow wrote: »twisttop138 wrote: »JustLovely wrote: »It's funny how the PvE community pushes so hard for vengeance but when the same system is proposed for PvE zones they freak out and throw down all kinds of reasons why the template mode is no good or not needed.
I keep seeing this. Who is pushing hard? What is the pve community?
I stopped reading here. Come on now.
You can feel free to stop reading but the answer should obvious. There is no huge cabal of players trying to kill your game mode. People keep saying a large group of pve mains. How on earth could you possibly know this except that it fits the echo chamber narrative around this issue. We see it in real life too. Players didn't do this man. Your issue is with Zenimax.
Strawman arguments are so exhausting, no one is saying there's a secret cabal of anything, but it is pretty selfish and hypocritical for pve enjoyers aka lol the "pve community" to come in pushing content they know damn well they wont play longer than it takes to get their tier 3 rewards, as the last two tests have shown.
You wanna play ignorant like you don't know what people mean by PvE community by all means but its as silly as OP pretending to want vengeance mode for dungeons.
No one is saying every last pver wants vengeance, but pretending there's not a lot of them here pushing that narrative is pointless. Maybe you haven't been paying attention to it or turned a blind eye but your perception isn't reality.
How did we get to the place where this sounds like a cable news show? Groups of people pushing the narrative? The people who enjoyed vengeance (I didn't) said they enjoyed it. Now this is something that needs to be called out as a narrative? It sucks this is happening. I personally don't go into Cyro much these days but I have really awesome memories there. If they canned it, that would be terrible. I get that people don't trust Zos but I look at it from a cost benefit perspective. What does getting rid of GH cost them and what does it benefit them. It just doesn't add up. Getting rid of it costs them players and maybe money. There isn't a lot of benefit. Adding vengeance is going to happen but I don't think grey host will go anywhere because why wouldn't they have their cake and eat it too.
It does when you have those people as well as salty pvpers calling for the removal of pvp or greyhost entirely. I don't really care about semantics arguments, the sentiment is obviously there or there wouldn't be pvpers like myself debating over any of this in the first place. OP's methods may be misguided but his desire to make pvers see how ridiculous these tests being forced on us in the first place so they can enjoy PvP for a bit wasn't born from nowhere.
The other guy said it better than me, @tomofhyrule , basically there's so little faith in what Zos says and such high suspicion because one minute they're calling it tests, and so many here said it was just a conspiracy that vengeance was gonna be made permanent, and now they're saying it will be one way or another, and Greyhost's existence while leaning yes, it will continue to exist, isn't 100 percent.
Sorry but combine that with comments about how Cyro is broken and needs to go, people are gonna see that and not be happy.
Also I hate to be that guy but you used "narrative" first between you and I lol. "Echo chamber narrative".
Damn. You got me there, I did use it first. That's why you're the pvper lol. Look brother, it sucks. And of course we have no faith in Zos. Look at everything this year, not just this. I have no faith in next year at all, not just pvp. Just like you guys, it's looking like there won't be room for a trial in this new season meta. Maybe less dungeons. God knows. We're all worried and I guess I'm getting worked up at all of us fighting each other and I get ops point but this thread is wild. It does nothing to bring the point to Zos.
Kudos points for giving me that lol, you're better than most here. And yea Solstice was a mess, though I enjoyed the main quest and side quests under the silly season pass and terrible phase 1-2.Edited by BardokRedSnow on November 26, 2025 5:21AMTes fans hate Ulfric Stormcloak for imagined bigotry but love Dagoth Ur, the Empire, and the Telvanni unironically.0 -
HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I actually really want to see a similar loadout system for Infinite Archive.
As it stands, IA is just very hard to get into because there's just always this drive to bring in multiple BiS sets and pray for Focused Efforts. Without that expectation of having to go in with good gear for all possible situations, each Infinite Archive run becomes self-contained, and thus removes any barrier to entry other than experience, skill, and the existing IA-specific upgrades. I'd love to see IA become a proper roguelike.Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
20 Argonians
6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 4x SBS, 1x MM, 1x US, 1x Unchained2 -
Skorro✭✭✭✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »edward_frigidhands wrote: »@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.
A very strong and very brave response. You are so right bro. I have to applaud how well you have provided your arguments in this thread and not been afraid or backed down from augmenting this discussion with your pve performance concerns and challenges.
Hold the line Sir @edward_frigidhands
We fight and die here.
For Tamriel. And server performance.
Keep feeding that troll my good Sers!
It makes for an entertaining read with my coffee 😌
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edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭@Gabriel_H I’ve seen you go round for round in other threads that never stopped, I assume you might still be typing in them. Anyway, I do not agree with you, and I don’t believe your opinion or assessment (whatever you wanna call it) is fact. I do consider myself patient, but not enough to keep answering these questions that have nothing to do with the fact that performance is supposedly top priority above anything else but only in a specific part of ESO.
"Keep" - You haven't answered one in any level of detail that backs up your point.
You have all but asked for my social and IP address. I don’t intend to stay on the line for 8 hours with an IT person asking questions like the answers aren’t obvious. I play on a console, I do not care nor will I ever about overclocking my gigagrams and having rbg keychains.
Here you go.
Where does this lag occur for you? PvE
What are your graphic settings? Basic
What is your ISP like? Google *** Media
How often does this occur? A lot
How big are the lag spikes? Big
How long do the lag spikes last? Unusually long
Here a series of questions for you:
Have you ever heard of the silent majority?
Have you ever heard of the loud minority?
Have you ever thought you were apart of the latter?
And back on topic cause you aren’t solving a technical issue here. All you’ve done despite multiple people share the same feedback as I have, is try to invalidate our feedback. You aren’t contributing anything other than an elitist mentality that your experience somehow supersedes anyone else’s. MY lag is more consistent in PvE than anywhere else. That’s it. You don’t have to “believe” me. I’m not asking for you to come cable tech my house either.
So much this.2 -
Gabriel_H✭✭✭✭✭
✭Quoted post has been removed
Some of you seem to be having perfomance issues in PvE that appear to be worse than PvP. Having spent thousands of hours in both, along with hundreds of people, that does not meet the norm.
So you have two choices:
1) Detail the problems so that others can offer solutions, as well as simultaenously providing ZOS with information, that they can collate and compare to their own internal data to identify why this is a problem for some of you - you may even discover a common factor.
2) Continue to scream into the void.
So, do you want your performance issues resolved or not?
Edit: TyposEdited by ZOS_GregoryV on November 26, 2025 9:29PMPC EU
Never get involved in a land war in Asia - it's one of the classic blunders!5 -
MsGurrl✭✭valenwood_vegan wrote: »Well, I don't know about pve vengenace, but yeah I would definitely agree that zos should shift their focus back to pve.
I don’t think it’s ever left PvE. I believe that PvP gets crumbs and nothing more. Most of the content released has been for PvE, just like most development has been geared towards the PvE experience.1 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Vengeance is designed to test the performance of removing a host of HoTs, DoTs and procs from 900 players all fighting each other.
4 or 12 people in a dungeon or trial do not face the same issues. Are there lag spikes? Yes, on occassion, but that is a server issue, not a game code issue.
What about the siege camps? Or riding your mount from the shrine to the enclave grahtwood primetime?
In part, that is a your hardware issue (I get the same problems); and in part, too high a player cap in instances. While I agree annoying, it's still not the same issue that vengeance seeks to address.
How so? Performance tanks in PvE because of XYZ abilities overloading the server, but vengeance was only created to solve this issue for skills ABC?
My “hardware” is fine.
Vengeance is looking to increase the player cap while also improving performance, by removing a lot of additional skill complexities.
If this can benefit PvP then why can't it benefit PvE? It honestly seems like a better fit in PvE because of all the complex PvE mechanics we already have to contend with. It would make PvE more performant, approachable and amazing.
Because PvE doesn't have performance issues, with the sole exceptions of 100 players attacking a world boss or milling around a wayshrine.
Dungeons, Trials, Delves, Outlaw refuges, Public Dungeons, Quest zones, anything indoors are instance capped. It's only outdoors in overland that has problems, and that can be solved by simply lowering the instance cap.
Cyro has already had it's cap lowered and it still suffers, and feels empty.
Edit: Individual players suffering poor performance in PvE is either a momentary issue with the servers, their ISP, or their hardware. It isn't due to skills causing excessive server calcs like it is in PvP - with the exceptions outlined above. Vengeance is specifically about reducing the number of server calcs to improve performance.
PvE has the same performance issues Cyrodiil has in vet dungeons and trials. And for the same reasons.0 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭Four_Fingers wrote: »So suddenly Vengeance is no good if it is on the other foot? (PvE)
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
It is no good for pvp either, but pve players have chosen other battles when it comes to topics. Pvp players have complained, but I guess they're not vocal enough.
The main excuse for vengeance are performance related issues, which may be around, but given how cyrodiil has not always been terrible performance wise, there may be other situations where it works as it still is. Maybe they don't want to commit resources, maybe they don't have them, maybe the pvp playerbase is not big enough to be worth the effort. I don't know.
While that debate can be held, I've yet to see a pvp player excited about vengeance. The first test was something some people were curious about.
After it was clear it was butchering the gameplay, I haven't heard any pvp player wishing for it. Other people do have heard so, in fact apparently every pvp player but the ones I've talked about this with are super excited, according to some comments. Taking them with a grain of salt.
The only thing I can tell you is vengeance has deterred me from playing cyro whenever it's been up. However, I haven't played more than 5h of pvp since subclassing came around in pvp, so they may as well delete the mode for what I care about it these days, but that doesn't make it a good decision.
Saying this as a mainly pve player, and while pvp is not my main activity, that has gotten a char to pvp rank 50, another to rank 40ish and another to rank 30ish. I wanted to get them both to rank 45ish, but I guess it won't happen.
Edit: typo
Vengeance mode is already killing live Cyrodiil. Fewer and fewer PvP mains return after every test. And now we know live Cyrodiil is living on borrowed time and almost certainly has less than a year left before it's shut down.
[snip]
[Edit for Petitions and Protests]Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on November 26, 2025 6:39PM1 -
reazea✭✭✭✭✭
✭JustLovely wrote: »The performance is the same in both environments because it only takes 12 players with high APM to over tax the old servers ZOS is using. This is why overland PvE players don't see a problem, but the more highly skilled players pushing the hardest content do see it, regardless of the content they're running.
Overland has more server calcs than an instanced trial.
Um, no. This is an absurd assertion. And there is no way for someone who doesn't work for ZOS making these assessments to know the actual numbers. But we know that ZOS servers struggle at max capacity during large fights in Cyrodiil and in trials, but not in overland PvE. So your assertion is clearly not backed up with facts and data. You're just being contrary for the sake of being a contrarian.2 -
BananaBender✭✭✭✭✭Here are my two cents about this topic.
PvE doesn’t need Vengeance mode in order to improve performance, because ZoS already has all the tools to improve performance if they deemed it a widespread problem.
Why is PvE different to PvP in this regard? In PvE you are fighting against a fixed number of enemies. If you go to a trial, there is always going to be max 12 players and the same NPCs waiting for you there, which means that there is a hard cap on the maximum number of calculations the servers must do. They can design each encounter around the limits of the servers, unlike in PvP where the encounter size changes all the time. If performance was a problem in PvE, they could simply reduce the number of entities in an instance or simplify the enemy mechanics to reduce the number of calculations.
Azureblight was seemingly a problem, which allowed for groups to surpass the expected calculations limit, which is why it was changed to a version which produces way less stress on the servers.
Why is overland such a mess at times then? Overland can have more players in the same area compared to trials. The instance caps are not designed around everyone actively fighting against the same enemies in a small area, which causes problems during events and such. Is this a problem? Yes, but again, ZoS could fix it already with the tools they have available without reworking the entire combat structure. Why they haven’t already done it is a mystery to all of us.
So why didn’t they apply the same method for PvP? Well, they did, which is exactly why Vengeance is what it is right now. A PvP environment which supports 900 players at a time has to be dumbed down significantly and that's what they did. How would a non dumbed down version look like? It seems that we are about to find out, because they are working on a mode which instead of dumbing down players kits is going to reduce the maximum amount of players.
Source, ZOS_JessicaFolsom: “For players who wish to enjoy a PvP experience that is more like Grey Host, we are in the early stages of working on a mid-size PvP space. It will be smaller than Cyrodiil but larger than our largest Battlegrounds, and offer enough room for 3-sided keep warfare and an overall similar experience to Cyrodiil. The goal with that will be to allow players to have their full suite of abilities, unique builds, equipment, etc. just like in Gray Host.”
Link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/685603/community-update-vengeance-testing-cyrodiil/p1
Source confirming that vengeance is about limiting server calculations.
ZOS_Kevin: “The Vengeance Test Campaign is focused directly on reducing ability complexity in an effort to cut down on server stress when mass battles occur. Anything you see that's enabled or disabled during this test is purely for the sake of performance and getting calculations as low as possible on the server.”
Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/679844/vengeance-test-faq-pc-june-30-through-july-8-console-june-30-through-july-9
Does this mean that PvE can’t be laggy at times? Nope, your connection and stability issues are just as valid, but ZoS already has all the tools necessary to fix the problem if they so choose.
It's also completely valid if you think that the better approach would have been to upgrade the server infrastructure, or move to a move efficient game engine etc, instead of the vengeance/new game mode approach.Edited by BananaBender on November 26, 2025 11:14PM1 -
Rogue_Coyote✭✭✭If it's good for one game mode it will be good for the other. That's been ZoS mantra for years when it came to "balancing" sets for pve/pvp. Let's do a test run and see how it works. It's a great idea0