Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Also, @Gabriel_H just so you don’t have to dig too deep, using the forum search function for “Cyrodiil lag” it is clear for anyone to see, that there was not a noticeable spike in complaints between Hybridization -> Subclassing regarding performance issues.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/123178/cyrodiil-fps-lag-is-fail
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157092/cyrodiil-to-lag-or-not-to-lag-i-may-have-a-solution
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236615/a-solution-for-lag-zergs-solo-and-small-group-play-in-cyrodiil
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/168802/cyrodiil-without-lags-idea
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/522722/performans-improvements-where-is-cyrodiil-lag-fix
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/442568/again-the-lag-in-cyrodiil
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/529977/video-comparison-of-the-current-overland-lag-with-last-patchs-cyrodiil-lag
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/229423/lag-in-cyrodiil-video-comparison
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490071/cyrodiil-lag-issue-post-35443434

You know the Vengeance campaign right? Want to know the difference between that and Live cyro? That would be the HoT and DoT stacking and the procs - and oh look the performance is much better than on Live cyro and the player cap per alliance is up at around 300 instead of 75.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

I’m not going to debate feelings with you, @Gabriel_H.

You feel like Hybridization, Scribing, Subclassing, are the reasons why performance is bad.

While they might play a factor, they are not THE factor. We have seen countless performance complaints in regards to Cyrodiil over the years, and hey I’ve felt them personally… for a decade.

The fact is, performance complaints did not spike beginning with Hybridization, or Scribing, or Subclassing. They have been consistent, telling everyone that the actual impact these systems have had over the years is minimal.

It's not "feelings" it's hard data as shown by ZOS acknowledging the problem and brining in Venegance.

The performance issues weren't felt as dramatically as now because they kept lowering the player cap until they couldn't feasably lower it any more.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

I’m not going to debate feelings with you, @Gabriel_H.

You feel like Hybridization, Scribing, Subclassing, are the reasons why performance is bad.

While they might play a factor, they are not THE factor. We have seen countless performance complaints in regards to Cyrodiil over the years, and hey I’ve felt them personally… for a decade.

The fact is, performance complaints did not spike beginning with Hybridization, or Scribing, or Subclassing. They have been consistent, telling everyone that the actual impact these systems have had over the years is minimal.

It's not "feelings" it's hard data as shown by ZOS acknowledging the problem and brining in Venegance.

The performance issues weren't felt as dramatically as now because they kept lowering the player cap until they couldn't feasably lower it any more.

Okay, I changed my mind. I’ll debate feelings with you just this one time Gabe, I feel like Vengeance has nothing to do with performance of lag, but is an experiment to water down the experience to make it more approachable.

Cyrodiil is dead. Dispute it, don’t dispute it, it doesn’t matter. Most people don’t find the content enjoyable after a decade.

It only makes sense that ZOS would be attempting to recreate that experience to include as many people as possible, and while I like the idea of Vengeance, I have not liked missing my sets, and was not a fan of being unable to access Subclassing.

But why wouldn’t they just tell us why they’re doing it? Because they know the majority of us who pop in from time to time are NOT okay with a watered down experience, but we are okay with helping test performance.

*Tin foil hat off.*

Whatever you feel Venegance is is irrelevant.

Vengeance has better performance than Live and with a much higher player cap. What is it that Vengeance has or does not have compare to Live?

No Subclassing
No Scribing
No Hybridization

The consequence of that is less DoTs, less HoTs, and less procs.

None of that is feelings, it is all facts.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

Those are the places to run the quirky interesting stuff. Prog night is meta night, not because some toxic elitist is forcing you, but because you respect your team and the time they're dedicating to work together. I can't imagine myself showing up and being obtuse and demanding I get to run a 50k DPS meme build cause it's not all about me.

As I said earlier, I am an exception when it comes to RLs. As long as a DD is hitting the minimum dps requirement that's needed to clear within the time I don't care what someone brings.

I know some very good DDs, and despite repeatidely telling them they don't need to bring a sub-classed beam boy to the prog, we have ~6 minutes to spare, they continue to do so even though they'd prefer to play another class for that exact reason.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Where is your evidence of this?

In all reality, nobody has a clue when server populations were reduced, as they haven’t been filling up outside of events or content drops in half a decade.

For years we saw the active removal of campaigns, leading up to the Greymoor update.

There was no Hybridization, Scribing, or Subclassing back then, yet the campaigns gradually came down until this is all we had left.

You mean other than the mutliple annoucements ZOS have made over the years, the changes to group sizes, and the data from addons providing the cap numbers?!

You need to get out of your bubble and look around more.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Where is your evidence of this?

In all reality, nobody has a clue when server populations were reduced, as they haven’t been filling up outside of events or content drops in half a decade.

For years we saw the active removal of campaigns, leading up to the Greymoor update.

There was no Hybridization, Scribing, or Subclassing back then, yet the campaigns gradually came down until this is all we had left.

You mean other than the mutliple annoucements ZOS have made over the years, the changes to group sizes, and the data from addons providing the cap numbers?!

You need to get out of your bubble and look around more.

You say, they kept lowering the cap, whether or not they have is irrelevant.

Population has not been reaching the cap.

And? You have the relevance the wrong way round. So lets try this one last time:

Live - player cap of ~75 per alliance - awful performance
Venegance - player cap of ~300 per alliance - much better performance than Live

Difference: Vengeance has less DoTs, HoTs, and procs as Hybridization, Scribing, and Sub-Classing have been removed.

If you don't understand that 1 + 1 = 2, or won't accept it, I can't help you.

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Actually can’t tell if satire or not…. can determine 100% bait though.

From my brief time paying attention to this place, I can see that anything one might disagree with is considered bait here.

I would still have preferred Subclassing be introduced differently but there's always time to address what I believe needs to be, for instance there needs to be incentive or good reason to pure class vs subclass, class mastery should be a more viable thing in the future, whereas subclassing should be looked at imo the same way scribing is, to augment people's preferred builds rather than outright replace them.

Something like allowing us to customize certain class abilities and maybe have them only be available if pure classed I think would be fair.

But in any case, whatever they do, I have come around a bit more now that I've had time to play with it. It has raised the power creep but we've been there before. As long as they work to try and maintain what eso was while also keeping and improving these systems, I think it'll be good for the game in the future, at least from a pvp aspect.

For PvE I dunno what they should do aside from I guess nerf beams. Perhaps offering scribable skills for pure classes could also improve the sameness of pve right now for dps. Beams beams beams definitely doesn't make me wanna do trials.

Again, can’t tell if satire.

We’ve never ever been this far apart.

The systems introduced demolished what ESO was and they haven’t done any tweaking to balance since subclassing was introduced.

If these are in fact satire, yall got me.

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”. Here’s a comparison only a few will understand. NFL Blitz on N64, it was an awesome game. Then you learned the cheat code for infinite sprint, you literally couldn’t play the game without it. If whoever you played against didn’t get their code in on time before the game started, y’all quit and started again. ZOS never should have rolled it out, they probably can’t close the book on it now even though they should. There’s a lot of us who can rightfully be bitter about it cause it blew the game up, and likely forever which is hinted at ZOS’s silence or ambiguous Vengeance tests or surveys.

Literally every time a chapter introduces a crazy new mythic or system like the introduction of the mythic system itself, a new set etc, the power creep increased again and again and again, sometimes being successfully addressed with nerfs or more often simply countered with a new shiny system or armor set etc, so whatever your point of contention is with my statement besides just being upset someone likes what you don’t, I don’t see it.

As far as preserving what eso was, I mean they should work to keep class identity rather than destroy it despite the existence of sub classing which I outlined with my suggestions.

Y’all like drama here too much, maybe try to understand where someone else is coming from before disagreeing. I understand the issues subclassing introduces, it’s why I took a long break from the game. I have been a dk main since the game launched on several accounts. But denying that there’s good it introduces also that can be preserved with some improvements to both the subclassing system itself as well as fortifying the idea of class identity to me is unproductive.

I can understand how subclassing could be fun for people. That’s okay. But, it was introduced with complete disregard to player feedback and made balance the worst it’s ever been, especially in Cyro. I would have rather fought a VR14 with my VR3 than fight a WardenSorcBlade. You replied to my first comment basically saying I was salty for saying it was bait. The OP posted this originally right after someone posted something negative about subclassing that they were in there arguing about. OP had all the right to make the post, that’s what the forum is for (to scream into an abyss). But it was 100% rage bait.

In the end, whatever, I don’t think the devs really pay attention to these discussions anyway. I’ll play ESO until I want to play something else. But the current state of the game is not glitter and gold, it’s an unbalanced mess and subclassing seemed forced upon an already unbalanced mess. They need to dive deeper than just “fixing” subclassing.

I agree with you on how it was introduced, and their disregard for feedback of long term players. The newer players though overwhelmingly supported subclassing, as well as a number of jaded older fans. It is important to point this out because Zos actually does listen to fans. They do read the forums.

They don't typically listen to certain parts of the community though. From my observation of the forum over the years as a lurker and now participant, the loudest players here seem to be PvErs who enjoyed Vengeance, and certain guilds of pvp that make ballgroups. They're the loudest and most obnoxious, and thats what Zos sees here more than anything else.

I doubt they will change their direction until they start seeing loss of profits or major outcry, and there's really not a major outcry to get rid of subclassing, but there is for balancing it, and thats probably realistically the best you can hope for.

As for the ragebait stuff, I dont care, I do think though that if you want Zos to pay attention to the criticism and others also, calling stuff ragebait thats not clearly posted for trolling will only get you recognition and agreement from other jaded fans who already agree with what you think. Not gonna change anything. Ragebait in these forums ever since it was made a rule to warn and ban people for it potentially is being overused.

Aside from that small point of contention, I honestly agree with you, subclassing needs to be reigned in either by nerfing skill lines that arent a part of your core class, or simply buffing the player if they only use core class skill lines.

Amongst a few other things they could have done.

The bolded part above is perhaps the most concerning thing. This is where we are in the forums now though. Once upon a time, the sub forum for Alliance War was thriving, now it’s all in General and balance is being discussed by people with less than 1000 kills. We’ve lost so many people because of bad balance decisions that were praised by a community that doesn’t exist. It’s happened time and time again, just like in this thread.

And you originally said there’s always time to address it… maybe, maybe not. People are dropping like flies from Cyrodiil. PvPrs are/have left the forums too. Why, cause they haven’t been listened to in years and years and are overshadowed by threads like this one.

The original post was 100% bait not coming off that. Forgive me for still showing up and speaking up 10 years later.

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Actually can’t tell if satire or not…. can determine 100% bait though.

From my brief time paying attention to this place, I can see that anything one might disagree with is considered bait here.

I would still have preferred Subclassing be introduced differently but there's always time to address what I believe needs to be, for instance there needs to be incentive or good reason to pure class vs subclass, class mastery should be a more viable thing in the future, whereas subclassing should be looked at imo the same way scribing is, to augment people's preferred builds rather than outright replace them.

Something like allowing us to customize certain class abilities and maybe have them only be available if pure classed I think would be fair.

But in any case, whatever they do, I have come around a bit more now that I've had time to play with it. It has raised the power creep but we've been there before. As long as they work to try and maintain what eso was while also keeping and improving these systems, I think it'll be good for the game in the future, at least from a pvp aspect.

For PvE I dunno what they should do aside from I guess nerf beams. Perhaps offering scribable skills for pure classes could also improve the sameness of pve right now for dps. Beams beams beams definitely doesn't make me wanna do trials.

Again, can’t tell if satire.

We’ve never ever been this far apart.

The systems introduced demolished what ESO was and they haven’t done any tweaking to balance since subclassing was introduced.

If these are in fact satire, yall got me.

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”. Here’s a comparison only a few will understand. NFL Blitz on N64, it was an awesome game. Then you learned the cheat code for infinite sprint, you literally couldn’t play the game without it. If whoever you played against didn’t get their code in on time before the game started, y’all quit and started again. ZOS never should have rolled it out, they probably can’t close the book on it now even though they should. There’s a lot of us who can rightfully be bitter about it cause it blew the game up, and likely forever which is hinted at ZOS’s silence or ambiguous Vengeance tests or surveys.

Literally every time a chapter introduces a crazy new mythic or system like the introduction of the mythic system itself, a new set etc, the power creep increased again and again and again, sometimes being successfully addressed with nerfs or more often simply countered with a new shiny system or armor set etc, so whatever your point of contention is with my statement besides just being upset someone likes what you don’t, I don’t see it.

As far as preserving what eso was, I mean they should work to keep class identity rather than destroy it despite the existence of sub classing which I outlined with my suggestions.

Y’all like drama here too much, maybe try to understand where someone else is coming from before disagreeing. I understand the issues subclassing introduces, it’s why I took a long break from the game. I have been a dk main since the game launched on several accounts. But denying that there’s good it introduces also that can be preserved with some improvements to both the subclassing system itself as well as fortifying the idea of class identity to me is unproductive.

I can understand how subclassing could be fun for people. That’s okay. But, it was introduced with complete disregard to player feedback and made balance the worst it’s ever been, especially in Cyro. I would have rather fought a VR14 with my VR3 than fight a WardenSorcBlade. You replied to my first comment basically saying I was salty for saying it was bait. The OP posted this originally right after someone posted something negative about subclassing that they were in there arguing about. OP had all the right to make the post, that’s what the forum is for (to scream into an abyss). But it was 100% rage bait.

In the end, whatever, I don’t think the devs really pay attention to these discussions anyway. I’ll play ESO until I want to play something else. But the current state of the game is not glitter and gold, it’s an unbalanced mess and subclassing seemed forced upon an already unbalanced mess. They need to dive deeper than just “fixing” subclassing.

I agree with you on how it was introduced, and their disregard for feedback of long term players. The newer players though overwhelmingly supported subclassing, as well as a number of jaded older fans. It is important to point this out because Zos actually does listen to fans. They do read the forums.

They don't typically listen to certain parts of the community though. From my observation of the forum over the years as a lurker and now participant, the loudest players here seem to be PvErs who enjoyed Vengeance, and certain guilds of pvp that make ballgroups. They're the loudest and most obnoxious, and thats what Zos sees here more than anything else.

I doubt they will change their direction until they start seeing loss of profits or major outcry, and there's really not a major outcry to get rid of subclassing, but there is for balancing it, and thats probably realistically the best you can hope for.

As for the ragebait stuff, I dont care, I do think though that if you want Zos to pay attention to the criticism and others also, calling stuff ragebait thats not clearly posted for trolling will only get you recognition and agreement from other jaded fans who already agree with what you think. Not gonna change anything. Ragebait in these forums ever since it was made a rule to warn and ban people for it potentially is being overused.

Aside from that small point of contention, I honestly agree with you, subclassing needs to be reigned in either by nerfing skill lines that arent a part of your core class, or simply buffing the player if they only use core class skill lines.

Amongst a few other things they could have done.

The bolded part above is perhaps the most concerning thing. This is where we are in the forums now though. Once upon a time, the sub forum for Alliance War was thriving, now it’s all in General and balance is being discussed by people with less than 1000 kills. We’ve lost so many people because of bad balance decisions that were praised by a community that doesn’t exist. It’s happened time and time again, just like in this thread.

And you originally said there’s always time to address it… maybe, maybe not. People are dropping like flies from Cyrodiil. PvPrs are/have left the forums too. Why, cause they haven’t been listened to in years and years and are overshadowed by threads like this one.

The original post was 100% bait not coming off that. Forgive me for still showing up and speaking up 10 years later.