Vengeance - THE WORST PVP EVER

RobZha · June 30

sarahthes wrote: »

I think the fundamental issue is that most of the PvP playerbase no longer trusts ZOS and are openly antagonistic towards the developers. I think the future of PvP may just be in ZOS using these campaigns to bring in new blood - something ESO PvP desperately needs.

I tried vengeance for about 20-30 mins earlier for the first time and just had to log off (I play mainly for pvp). Everything is so stripped back that it didn't feel right at all. I might go back for bits here and there but I'm definitely not into it after a first go.

People keep saying that this is just a test as well but then I'm reading that there's already lag happening? Would be surprised if they can somehow add most of the missing stuff back into whatever this will turn into without the game still lagging.

Over half a decade ago I remember there being tests to try and work out what was going on with pvp so it's crazy to still see stuff like this and that apparently they're no closer as far as we know to working out how to fix the problem.

It's almost like there's something fundamentally wrong with the way the game is coded and/or the servers/hardware needs seriously upgrading and unless that's sorted properly nothing is ever going to change.

I'm honestly thinking now that if pvp ends up anything like this after they decide how to move forward it could be the one of the first main signs of the end of this game. If they make changes hopefully they're not too drastic and most of what pvp is to many of us remains.

Lirkin · June 30

One server and it is full.

This is no fun

fizzybeef · June 30

organisation and communication will always win, thats why ball groups wont be moved.
I was just with 5 other people in a party, we semi organised some skills and some classes, kited & pulled chasing zergs and absolutely slapped them, even if they were 2-3x the ammount of us.

And this is how it should be, if youre working together as a team, you should be able to do more then a mindless zerg

RobZha · June 30

To not be 100% negative I do think it's kind of cool how Cyrodiil looked so different with the colours. I'm surprised they haven't played around with that more for various events over the years. Seeing more stuff like that every so often with the rest of pvp being as it normally is could work really well if they did it right.

The_Meathead · June 30

sarahthes wrote: »

The_Meathead wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

It‘s actually more laggy right now then when 3 ball groups are arround lol.

This is bad.

Yeah, it's drastically different than the first go of Vengeance where there was little to no lag throughout the entire week.

I'm more than a bit surprised it's so present this time, given how minimal the increases were in Skill Lines and such.

Are you on EU or NA?

PC NA.

It wasn't AWFUL lag, but it was more than I get normally in Cyrodiil unless there's a Ballgroup or two present. Typically, I don't get any lag at all in Zerg on Zerg but things get sticky when a BG gets close. I'm getting that same sort of sticky response in Vengeance this time and saw others voicing the same in Zone chat.

The first Vengeance Campaign had almost no lag at all for me throughout the whole week, so I wasn't really expecting this.

Joy_Division · June 30

React wrote: »

This iteration of vengeance is awful. There is too much healing now, and with an AOE cap of 3 on damage abilities the whole "greater numbers win" thing has really been reinforced. You have like no chance at all to outplay people when they outnumber you if they've got even the most basic skillset.

A lot of people claimed that vengeance allowed for more "skill expression", but that just isn't the case with this iteration. Really unfortunate to see given how fun PVP has been this patch with the huge damage increase from subclassing.

I was afraid of this.

It's because they introduced two more sources of healing while nothing damage wise was added from the weapons/support lines?

I've been one of Vengeance's biggest supporters, but that support was always contingent on ZOS using the decade of gameplay we have on record to improve the PvP experience.

Everyone who plays this games regularly has long since figured out that an excessive amount of healing, low damage output, and AoE damage caps is a recipe for a miserable PvP experience.

React · June 30

Joy_Division wrote: »

React wrote: »

This iteration of vengeance is awful. There is too much healing now, and with an AOE cap of 3 on damage abilities the whole "greater numbers win" thing has really been reinforced. You have like no chance at all to outplay people when they outnumber you if they've got even the most basic skillset.

A lot of people claimed that vengeance allowed for more "skill expression", but that just isn't the case with this iteration. Really unfortunate to see given how fun PVP has been this patch with the huge damage increase from subclassing.

I was afraid of this.

It's because they introduced two more sources of healing while nothing damage wise was added from the weapons/support lines?

I've been one of Vengeance's biggest supporters, but that support was always contingent on ZOS using the decade of gameplay we have on record to improve the PvP experience.

Everyone who plays this games regularly has long since figured out that an excessive amount of healing, low damage output, and AoE damage caps is a recipe for a miserable PvP experience.

It's not that nothing was added damage wise, because the weapon lines to fill in some gaps that were missing previously - like dots, stuns, sources of breach, spammables, etc. But the healing that was added is drastically more effective than the damage, and the damage options that are given just aren't effective at dealing with that healing. Especially with the AOE cap making AOE abilities essentially worthless - any fight where there are too many people to single target is basically just a numbers game.

I really, really hope they look at the overall positive reception there has been to the damage increase with subclassing and decide to continue to promote that sort of meta through whatever balance changes they make to the live server or future iterations of vengeance. The game is so much fun when the damage is high, and when it is primarily direct damage with counterplay as opposed to unavoidable dot/proc damage. The game is not fun when the damage output is low.

Pixiepumpkin · June 30

So. I was a MASSIVE supporter of the first Vengeance. I still think the concept is a solid route. However, this round has not been fun at all. I have no clue what changed, but I simply can not kill anyone as I tickle them for 3 to 4k damage hits, meanwhile I have to spam shields against ONE target while they are nuking me.

Yes I know how to debuff, yes I know what abilities increase my damage...but this one simply makes no sense. The numbers are not adding up.

I am getting hit for 20 to 25 by one person. I am watching one player take on 10 others and taking no damage, then turning around and killing folks in 3 hits.

As it stands, I see no reason to continue playing vengeance this round. There is simply nothing fun about it.

valenwood_vegan · June 30

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

So. I was a MASSIVE supporter of the first Vengeance. I still think the concept is a solid route. However, this round has not been fun at all. I have no clue what changed, but I simply can not kill anyone as I tickle them for 3 to 4k damage hits, meanwhile I have to spam shields against ONE target while they are nuking me.

Yes I know how to debuff, yes I know what abilities increase my damage...but this one simply makes no sense. The numbers are not adding up.

I am getting hit for 20 to 25 by one person. I am watching one player take on 10 others and taking no damage, then turning around and killing folks in 3 hits.

As it stands, I see no reason to continue playing vengeance this round. There is simply nothing fun about it.

Agree, I can't quite put my finger on it but something feels different this time. React may be onto something with the added healing being part of the problem, but It just... reminds me more of live and of the reasons I don't normally pvp.

Pixiepumpkin · June 30

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

So. I was a MASSIVE supporter of the first Vengeance. I still think the concept is a solid route. However, this round has not been fun at all. I have no clue what changed, but I simply can not kill anyone as I tickle them for 3 to 4k damage hits, meanwhile I have to spam shields against ONE target while they are nuking me.

Yes I know how to debuff, yes I know what abilities increase my damage...but this one simply makes no sense. The numbers are not adding up.

I am getting hit for 20 to 25 by one person. I am watching one player take on 10 others and taking no damage, then turning around and killing folks in 3 hits.

As it stands, I see no reason to continue playing vengeance this round. There is simply nothing fun about it.

Agree, I can't quite put my finger on it but something feels different this time. React may be onto something with the added healing being part of the problem, but It just... reminds me more of live and of the reasons I don't normally pvp.

EXACTLY....it feels like live. I am doing no damage, and getting obliterated in seconds. Live PVP is the worst PVP I have ever played in 20 years of MMO's or FPS and this round is close behind it.

Wife has been jonsing all day to get into Vengeance and she is seeing the same stuff. I mean the two of us can't damage some folks past 10% of their health while they are blowing us up. Spamming shields and heals does nothing.

And we tried this on Sorcs, Templars, DK, and Arcanists. Regardless of the class, our shields have nil effect, and our heals seem paltry at best.

demonology89 · June 30

Liking Vengeance so far. It takes some adapting but people actually die for the most part.

Only thing I'm upset about ZOS is that all vendors are disabled during the Zenithar event.

Pixiepumpkin · June 30

Renato90085 wrote: »

Is only me or this test really lag?

ya, its super laggy. I can't even get HA lightning staff to channel. It just starts, and then stops.

LadyGP · June 30

Quackery wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

We already had this discussion before with the first Vengeance test, and most people were positive, because THEY HAD FUN! Massive amounts of people, no unkillable players, and no crutches, no ball groups..what's to complain about?? New players were ecstatic during the event, and they had so much fun. It is beginner-friendly, which is always a good thing. How is bringing in new players a bad thing?

Just to be clear: THIS IS A TEST!

Vengeance mode is no skill trash. There is nothing good about it at all. The people who love it now will quit playing within a week or two if vengeance mode becomes mandated.

You're wrong, it's the opposite. Even the most experienced ones had more fun during Vengeance mode. We had such huge fights at Ash that I thought the game was going to implode, but imagine my shock when I saw that the server handled it. If people had to choose between status quo where ball groups own the map, or PvP full of people, albeit with limited skills, I guarantee you that most people would pick the campaign where they haven't had as much fun in YEARS!

Also, give ZOS a little more credit here. They will keep running their tests. It won't end with this.

This is conflaiting two issues.

Like the survery legit needs an option that says do you like this playstile because

1) ball groups aren't in it
2) performance is better but you have no skill/combat (everyone is a 1:1)

I'd be willing to say it would be 90/10 in favor of ball groups.

Which tells you... if zos can fix performance... without making it a 1:1... but also working on heal stacking/shields so ball groups aren't as OP... then they would have an absolute banger.

Literally anything zos does that makes it so ball groups are gone everyone will fall in love with. Ball groups will always be there.. there will always be a 12 person comp that is min/maxed to absolute hell and back. So, lets focus on balacing it so the zerg or another cordinated group has a chance against ball groups.

Making everyone 1:1 isn't where its at.

I'd argue that this is their long term vision... but everyone just says ya no ball groups this test is amazing blah blah so much fun. When really.. it's not like that. The performance is a banger... thats all it has going for it.

LadyGP · June 30

ForumBully wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

We already had this discussion before with the first Vengeance test, and most people were positive, because THEY HAD FUN! Massive amounts of people, no unkillable players, and no crutches, no ball groups..what's to complain about?? New players were ecstatic during the event, and they had so much fun. It is beginner-friendly, which is always a good thing. How is bringing in new players a bad thing?

Just to be clear: THIS IS A TEST!

Vengeance mode is no skill trash. There is nothing good about it at all. The people who love it now will quit playing within a week or two if vengeance mode becomes mandated.

You're wrong, it's the opposite. Even the most experienced ones had more fun during Vengeance mode. We had such huge fights at Ash that I thought the game was going to implode, but imagine my shock when I saw that the server handled it. If people had to choose between status quo where ball groups own the map, or PvP full of people, albeit with limited skills, I guarantee you that most people would pick the campaign where they haven't had as much fun in YEARS!

Also, give ZOS a little more credit here. They will keep running their tests. It won't end with this.

thats just wrong and the person who you was responding too, is right

Again - WRONG! What you fail to understand is that people were having FUN for the first time in ages! The huge numbers of players, along with restrictions in skills, made fights "equal", albeit numbers-based. ZOS just needs to tweak the skills allowed in order to make your own skilfulness matter. I believe that ZOS will figure this out.

Also, AGAIN, we've already had this discussion the previous time we had Vengeance mode active. Most people were in agreement in that they hadn't had that much fun in ages. It just needs skill tweaks, that's all. It's the amount of players that brought the fun because it felt like an ACTUAL WAR like it used to be at the start.

Youre entitled to have your opinion but dont try to sell them as facts 😂 A lot of people hating vengeance, i hope zos tracks the zone chat and realises lmao

No one ever wants to read zone chat...ever

You do know Rich is DC right, Brian is EP right... they do read zone chat. I can promise you they have QA people in live veng right now too doing their own testing. You think they don't have logs of zone chat and run it through AI? Sentiment scanning of text files is one of the OG AI models that has been around for ages. This is stupid easy to implement with very little cost to overhead.

sarahthes · June 30

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

Is only me or this test really lag?

ya, its super laggy. I can't even get HA lightning staff to channel. It just starts, and then stops.

How is the server outside cyrodiil? I have found trials performance to be kind of bad for the past week (including a hard crash which is uncommon for me) so wondering if it's a general problem rather than a cyrodiil specific one.

valenwood_vegan · June 30

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

So. I was a MASSIVE supporter of the first Vengeance. I still think the concept is a solid route. However, this round has not been fun at all. I have no clue what changed, but I simply can not kill anyone as I tickle them for 3 to 4k damage hits, meanwhile I have to spam shields against ONE target while they are nuking me.

Yes I know how to debuff, yes I know what abilities increase my damage...but this one simply makes no sense. The numbers are not adding up.

I am getting hit for 20 to 25 by one person. I am watching one player take on 10 others and taking no damage, then turning around and killing folks in 3 hits.

As it stands, I see no reason to continue playing vengeance this round. There is simply nothing fun about it.

Agree, I can't quite put my finger on it but something feels different this time. React may be onto something with the added healing being part of the problem, but It just... reminds me more of live and of the reasons I don't normally pvp.

EXACTLY....it feels like live. I am doing no damage, and getting obliterated in seconds. Live PVP is the worst PVP I have ever played in 20 years of MMO's or FPS and this round is close behind it.

[snip for length]

This is totally anecdotal but I wonder if some of it too is that it feels more skewed toward experienced / regular pvp'ers this time. I dunno but I recognize a lot of the names and unlike the first time, zone chat has been very typical pvp chat and doesn't constantly have new players asking about the basics, so far at least. And perhaps the added skills are then also allowing these players to fall back into something that more closely resembles their normal pvp rotation and comfort zone.

Just to be clear though, I still personally enjoy it more than the mess on live.

ArgoCye · June 30

I love it. No CP, no proc sets, no BS.

Sluggy · June 30

Desiato wrote: »

If small scale is your thing, there is Battlegrounds. If you must have CP Cyrodiil, perhaps they will consider keeping at least one server open on each platform and let players choose what they prefer.

Honestly, I've been finding some really great small scale fights in Cyrodiil and they are leap and bounds better than anything live has served up in recent memory.

LadyGP · June 30

Sluggy wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

If small scale is your thing, there is Battlegrounds. If you must have CP Cyrodiil, perhaps they will consider keeping at least one server open on each platform and let players choose what they prefer.

Honestly, I've been finding some really great small scale fights in Cyrodiil and they are leap and bounds better than anything live has served up in recent memory.

Yeah you can get into some really intense smaller scale fights in cyro especially with veng (because of how similar everyone is).

Sluggy · June 30

LadyGP wrote: »

Sluggy wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

If small scale is your thing, there is Battlegrounds. If you must have CP Cyrodiil, perhaps they will consider keeping at least one server open on each platform and let players choose what they prefer.

Honestly, I've been finding some really great small scale fights in Cyrodiil and they are leap and bounds better than anything live has served up in recent memory.

Yeah you can get into some really intense smaller scale fights in cyro especially with veng (because of how similar everyone is).

That's the really important part about having a large population in Cyrodiil. Without it, everyone is kind of forced to wait for the crossed sword and then head there if they want some action. With a higher pop like in this test, we actually can spread out (not that we always do, but at least it is now an option).

YandereGirlfriend · June 30

amiiegee wrote: »

PLAYSTATION HERE, so its the first time Vengeance.

First of all the positive : The Sky looks pretty. Ah yes and another good thing about it; it will end in a few days. Thought i wont play the game at all in these days.

Well now to the rest. I have played this now for almost 1 hour and its the worst pvp experience i had in ages.
It literally was better, when we still had the old servers and the game was a slide show & skills worked like in round based games.

You have NO own sets, no skill morphes, I have leveled Subclassing in the past days FOR NOTHING, because i cant use it now. The scribing skills i farmed together in the past, i cant use.
Youre slow, you have no ressources at most of the time, it feels like youre not doing anything most of the time.

Its a pure numbers game, the bigger zergs wins.
Not the better player, not the better strategy.

Every pvp battle has the same scheme wich i take time to describe now;

Zerg X with 50 people pushes to Keep 1 fighting Zerg Y with 40 people. Zerg Y gets pushed back , till they are close to the Keep 1 where they are able to respawn, then Zerg Y is Pushing back Zerg X to their own Keep 2.
Till it switches arround again and the scheme repeats.

THIS IS IT. Everyone fighting each other with solo target skills but just in big zerges.

This campaign is OP if youre just the type of pvp player who likes to beam people at full health, while they are getting zerged.

On the PS server im playing on EVERYONE in the chat is complaining.
In the psn party im in, EVERYONE is complaining.

I think its even worse.

I dont know if PC players are suffering sooo much off ball groups and proc sets, they rather prefere this Nonsense ( thats the tenor i read a lot in this forum, when vengeance happened first on PC).
But this is horrible, i wont support playing this test further & as a pure pvp player, if this ever becomes a permanent thing, this was the nail in the coffin for me.

Well said.

Vengeance is literally a MOBA game with creeps (the zerg) and towers (the keeps).

NoSoup · June 30

Lol all this same rethoric game out at the start of the last vengence campaign on PC, yet at the end of the campaign the responce was overwhelmingly positive.

CatoUnchained · June 30

Renato90085 wrote: »

Is only me or this test really lag?

So far performance on PC NA has been horrible. Just got kicked from Cyro after massive rubberbanding and freezing. Vengeance is an abomination.

allochthons · June 30

If you're getting kicked, lags, etc, POST IT WHERE THE DEVS WILL READ IT:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/679827/the-official-vengeance-test-campaign-feedback-thread-test-2

CatoUnchained · June 30

LadyGP wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Quackery wrote: »

We already had this discussion before with the first Vengeance test, and most people were positive, because THEY HAD FUN! Massive amounts of people, no unkillable players, and no crutches, no ball groups..what's to complain about?? New players were ecstatic during the event, and they had so much fun. It is beginner-friendly, which is always a good thing. How is bringing in new players a bad thing?

Just to be clear: THIS IS A TEST!

Vengeance mode is no skill trash. There is nothing good about it at all. The people who love it now will quit playing within a week or two if vengeance mode becomes mandated.

You're wrong, it's the opposite. Even the most experienced ones had more fun during Vengeance mode. We had such huge fights at Ash that I thought the game was going to implode, but imagine my shock when I saw that the server handled it. If people had to choose between status quo where ball groups own the map, or PvP full of people, albeit with limited skills, I guarantee you that most people would pick the campaign where they haven't had as much fun in YEARS!

Also, give ZOS a little more credit here. They will keep running their tests. It won't end with this.

thats just wrong and the person who you was responding too, is right

Again - WRONG! What you fail to understand is that people were having FUN for the first time in ages! The huge numbers of players, along with restrictions in skills, made fights "equal", albeit numbers-based. ZOS just needs to tweak the skills allowed in order to make your own skilfulness matter. I believe that ZOS will figure this out.

Also, AGAIN, we've already had this discussion the previous time we had Vengeance mode active. Most people were in agreement in that they hadn't had that much fun in ages. It just needs skill tweaks, that's all. It's the amount of players that brought the fun because it felt like an ACTUAL WAR like it used to be at the start.

Youre entitled to have your opinion but dont try to sell them as facts 😂 A lot of people hating vengeance, i hope zos tracks the zone chat and realises lmao

No one ever wants to read zone chat...ever

You do know Rich is DC right, Brian is EP right... they do read zone chat. I can promise you they have QA people in live veng right now too doing their own testing. You think they don't have logs of zone chat and run it through AI? Sentiment scanning of text files is one of the OG AI models that has been around for ages. This is stupid easy to implement with very little cost to overhead.

How do you know Rich is DC and Brian is EP? ...just curious. I sincerely don't believe anyone at ZOS PvP's since about 2018. For certain nobody with the official ZOS rep icon has been seen in Cyrodiil since then. So how do you know what you just claimed is factual?

CatoUnchained · June 30

NoSoup wrote: »

Lol all this same rethoric game out at the start of the last vengence campaign on PC, yet at the end of the campaign the responce was overwhelmingly positive.

Vengeance is not at all popular with the vast majority of PvP mains. It's just not. It's popular with PvE mains and ZOS.

licenturion · June 30

I hate PvP normally but wanted to try it and I must say I loved it now that they levelled the playing field

I had some great 1vs1 and me vs 2 fights and I either got away alive or killed them with good positioning and timing of my skills. Fights feel a lot more fair and readable like this now that stuff is actually balanced. Even cheap ganking tricks can be countered now.

I even played with a large group for 2 hours and had loads of fun. If this becomes an extra mode in the future, I will probably play some PvP as well. Time will tell.

There were some moments of lag during big fights.

CatoUnchained · June 30

sarahthes wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

Is only me or this test really lag?

ya, its super laggy. I can't even get HA lightning staff to channel. It just starts, and then stops.

How is the server outside cyrodiil? I have found trials performance to be kind of bad for the past week (including a hard crash which is uncommon for me) so wondering if it's a general problem rather than a cyrodiil specific one.

Performance has been worse since last weeks maintenance. Not sure why, but it was noticeable in all zones and more so in Cyrodiil. Also note there was no patch today or last week with the maintenance.

Sluggy · July 1

Major_Soulless wrote: »

3 will beat 1

4 will beat 2

11 will beat 7

20 will beat 13

This hasn't been my experience all day. I've won many 1v2s and 1v3s and even a 1v4. I've found way to survive greater differences and drag them into groups of even numbers where they were defeated. And I've seen a few three or four person organized teams fight off easily three times their numbers. If 13 lost to 20 that wasn't due to numbers. That was due to many individuals playing poorly. There's nothing wrong there. You can win out numbered with skill. If the numbers are vastly different then you will be steamrolled. That's not a flaw. That's how it should be.

ForumBully · July 1

Xbox NA, I've been having some huge fights and haven't noticed any lag. Damage does seem a little low vs healing, but I feel like others are having a hard time killing me too...I haven't noticed the "I can't hurt anyone but get nuked" stuff.
I think siege needs to REALLY hurt during an event that's pushing a large population, otherwise keep defense feel like a lost cause.